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Man, I did not come here today expecting to see any threads that actually used logic. I gotta be honest I like this idea, however I feel you've sort of wasted your effort of constructing it.

It's pretty brilliant and I don't really see too many flaws, but I don't believe that 343i will ever take any ideas from fans, especially a good thought out one like this that's probably already been flamed to hell and back by the usual forum copy and paste responses that you see on pretty much every thread that isn't full of fanboys.

Why? Because it's too good. If you can think of something awesome that'd be really good in Halo 4, it's pretty much guaranteed not to be in. People have made hundreds, maybe even thousands of suggestions for previous Halo games and I'm fairly sure none of them made it in. Sure, they were developed by Bungie, but can you really expect 343i to be any different?

I mean, perhaps I am just a pessimist, but when was the last time you was actually wowed by a developer by the features in a game?
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OK upon re reading i see that OP wasnt talking about influence in a "were better than you" way so i retract.

He seems to be talking about general network effects, and that is valid. Bungie knows this because they brought the Y menu back from halo 2 (AKA active roster) to make it easier for these network effects to kick in.

I dont think its correct to ascribe the 'failure' of reach (in comparison to previous games) to a lack of this network effect though, sure its not as strong as H3 but thats because these days when i fire up my friends list, i see people playing BF3, skyrim, various CODs, borderlands, all sorts of games. There is actually no one dominant game people are playing anymore because there is so much more choice now. That wasnt the case back in H3 days, and even then COD split my friends list down the middle eventually.

Its actually a topic ive though about before, how any sort of community on XBL is going to hell now because everyone is playing different games because there are so many worth playing. Thats not a problem specific to reach or halo though.

I would agree that "competitive" players have stronger network effects (that that nomenclature is problematic i feel, just call them dedicated or something."), but i dont agree that lacking any 'decent' ranking system which made them all float away, is a main causal factor in halo not being dominant anymore. Its not dominant for the reasons stated above. The days of ANY dominant XBL game are over, and yes that does have repercussions for the network effect across the whole service.
People still argue about this? There won't be a 1-50 system, you already lost..
I have played Halo/Starcraft/etc. casually and competitively. When most people play casually they first like to play with real life friends, then online friends and lastly alone with online strangers. When they play competitively it is usually real friends who are good, online friends who are good, strangers who are good, people who are bad. The point I am making is you didn't account for the different value of different types of friends. You also do not talk about new player acquisition or even how other competitors in the market affect Halo today. What matters is not how many friends a player has but how many real life friends a player has. Real life friends hold the most influence. I think it is the people who are the most popular who will have the greatest effect on Halo not necessarily who is/isn't competitive. Here is some data to back it up:

2007:
Halo 3 sold 11.5 million copies on XBox 360
COD4 sold 8.62 million on Xbox360

2009:
ODST sold 6.04 million
COD:MW2 sold 12.75 million on XBox360

ODST had all the principles you talk about and the Halo 3 multiplayer that many competitive players love and brought us FF. Yet, it got outsold by COD. I think COD caters to the casuals. COD is easy to jump into and has so much randomness that I swear almost everyone has done good at some point. I have seen people just win by pure luck lol. The point is you talk about incentives... but the greatest incentive is doing good. Nobody like losing, this is why COD can attract the casuals so easily. Everyone will do good at some point, I think it is programmed into the game lol. People like to play the game they are better at. So why was the Halo community decimated by COD? I mean look at the huge drop in Halo sales and huge rise in COD. I think it was because casuals left Halo. As casuals left the spiral theory happened where this negatively affected other players etc. and even other competitive players and they left because no one wants to be left out. Also you forget new player acquisition, for every competitive player to recommend Halo there is roughly 1 competitive COD player and 1 casual COD player to recommend COD. A player new to both series will most likely go where the friends he values most are. And since COD has more people because of the casual community it will likely be COD. And lastly you forgot that every competitive player was once a casual. I think COD makes more competitive players than Halo because they have less barriers for new players. I think people turn from casual to competitive once they start doing well and realize they can actually do well at the game. This is easier to do in COD. Since the competitive players are usually more loyal this greatly benefits COD.
Guywired;933799 wrote:
OP,

First, allow me to thank you. While I don't agree with much of your posts, your ability to frankly AND eloquently state your position is very much appreciated. Furthermore, it was a breath of fresh air in comparison to most people I disagree with in these forums.

Secondly, your ideas regarding player incentives I thought were well rounded. It's obvious that if you, yourself, does not already work in the gaming industry, then you at the very least have a worthy gaming resume' from which to pull these bits of brilliance from.

Thirdly, Your spiral discussion, and sphere of influence are fascinating ideas I would be willing to discuss more for one reason in particular: I don't know where I fall within your consideration.
Thank you very much for responding. Although I feel I can help steer Halo in the right direction, the line about hiring me was more or less a joke. You see, I am only a college student, and an economics major at that. I will be graduating next year, and well I doubt I will be logging hours regardless of whether Halo 4 is good, bad, has a visual ranking system or not. In other words, I made this not because this is my best interest, but rather for my love of the game.

As far as my spiral discussion, Much of that is based is based on modern economic thought. Incentives are is just reframed utility theory, while my Player Spiral Theory is based on liquidity spirals, like those ones characteristic of the recent financial crisis in the mortgage market.
Quote:
As my fourth point will go into, I don't completely agree with your need for a Ranking System. But if I quit Reach today for some reason, any reason.. be it dropping dead, or just refusing to play the TU.. no less than a dozen other people basically stop playing this game too. That doesn't even take into consideration the friends of those friends who would also stop playing.

I'm assuming that's a rather large 'sphere of influence' compared to most, you tell me.

I have a rather "casual" attitude when it comes to these discussions, yet I'm here, participating in them, with a positive KDR and thousands of games played going back to Halo CE in 2001.

What's the disconnect then? Your theory, well thought out as it may be and intelligently described in this thread... run contrary to my actual experiences. Am I simply an exception to the rule? What's the deviation rate for such a player in your model? Do I actually fit somewhere within your categorization in a way that proves your point?
Well if you have thousands of games going back to CE I would call you a fairly Hardcore Halo Fan. Well actually, I just took a quick look at your stats and you have only lost only about 30% of your games, additionally I noticed that you have also purchased Bungie Pro, you have already noted your positive K/D. These are all things few players can say.

Moreover, it is great that you identify as “casual” but there is a strong bias to identify as either competitive or casual because of the way those terms have been polarized community. Truth is though you probably lie somewhere in-between and therefore are likely to have a medium sized sphere of influence.

As far as my theory running contrary to your experience, well again that would be because you like most people, surround yourself with players similar to yourself. Again, I never tried to make a rule that was true all the time, you see that is not the point in trying to model reality. The goal is to come up with rules that are true reality in general. As far deviation, well I obviously, I do not have the necessary data otherwise I would have run a few regressions and made a much stronger argument. And I do not know if you are a stats-y person or not but all I can really speak to is whether any given β is positive or negative and well that is enough for me to make an argument.
Quote:
Fourth, last and certainly not least... Much of what you're proposing while I admit, are good ideas... are not things that REQUIRE a Visual Ranking System (herein referred to as 'VRS'). Nor does your hypothesis prove that a VRS was (or should be..)the actual driving force of player populations.

A.)I do believe there is a place for a VRS.
B.)I do believe distinction in competitive and social playlists are good things.
C.)I do believe that players WANT competitive matches.
D.)I do believe that players want incentives.
E.)I do not believe that points B-D, if executed properly, REQUIRE a VRS.

I would like to assume OP that since I took the time to read and understand your position on the matter, that you will be extending me the same courtesy.

In case you don't however...

TL/DR Version: Good ideas, I disagree, details listed above.

-Guy
This is an excellent point however if you do not present any alternate solutions, our discussion will obviously be limited. However, I will do my best to present you with the biggest issue you would have in trying to implement a non-visual system type system.

You can absolutely perfect similar skill matching, but ultimately this will not matter. The problem is the fact that competitive players are by their very nature competitive, if there is no prize to play for, they will not play. As I have been saying all this time, people need incentives. There must exist something in these playlist to get that is lacking in other playlists, otherwise you will find a lot of talent wasted and top players will simply spawn kill kids in BTB all day where the incentive is the dissatisfaction of the other team. I do admit that part of the problem with Halo 3 is that people once they achieved the highest rank quit but I have addressed that issue here with a merit system as well as hardcore mode. If you build the rank system, they will come but if not, but if not I can guarantee they will not, those playlist will suffer the same fate as the arena, and Shadow Run.

Well one can simply say, well that is too bad for that small number of players, but I have already explained the negative effects this spells out for the entire community with my player spiral effect.
We need to bring Mr. Mill back from the dead and have him pour some utilitarianism thought onto 343i. As many problems as ranking had in Halo 3 it kept me playing and wanting to improve and get better. I had some of the best times on Halo 3. Who cares if you win or lose in Halo: Reach.
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If Halo 4 doesn't have 1-50 and has some cR garbage like reach, I won't be buying it.
Ellen Degeneres;943878 wrote:
If Halo 4 doesn't have 1-50 and has some cR garbage like reach, I won't be buying it.


It doesn't have 1-50 and it has a new system that's probably going to be similar to cR called Spartan points, which is used to buy weapons and perks or as they're called "mods".
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Krevilz;943883 wrote:
Ellen Degeneres;943878 wrote:
If Halo 4 doesn't have 1-50 and has some cR garbage like reach, I won't be buying it.


It doesn't have 1-50 and it has a new system that's probably going to be similar to cR called Spartan points, which is used to buy weapons and perks or as they're called "mods".

Thats Wrong. XP are the new Credits. U will earn XP for everythin you do (kill,assists,win, etc) and if u rank up, you will get some spartan points. With Spartan points u can buy things for your loadouts.
iDiscoDieter;943890 wrote:
Krevilz;943883 wrote:
Ellen Degeneres;943878 wrote:
If Halo 4 doesn't have 1-50 and has some cR garbage like reach, I won't be buying it.


It doesn't have 1-50 and it has a new system that's probably going to be similar to cR called Spartan points, which is used to buy weapons and perks or as they're called "mods".

Thats Wrong. XP are the new Credits. U will earn XP for everythin you do (kill,assists,win, etc) and if u rank up, you will get some spartan points. With Spartan points u can buy things for your loadouts.


Do you have a source for that? Even so, it's pretty much the same thing.
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I am Sword Base;943897 wrote:
Krevilz;943883 wrote:
Ellen Degeneres;943878 wrote:
If Halo 4 doesn't have 1-50 and has some cR garbage like reach, I won't be buying it.


It doesn't have 1-50 and it has a new system that's probably going to be similar to cR called Spartan points, which is used to buy weapons and perks or as they're called "mods".

That is a common misconception. Halo 4will have a progression system alongside a ranking system (ex. Inheritor, and Onyx or 5 Star general, and 50). Although they haven't told us what the newer system will be yet.

TBH though they tried adding a 1-50 VRS to Reach so I do not think we will be dissapointed in what the Ranking system is.


We don't know that yet. Frankie has said that we won't have arena or 1-50, and said that they are thinking about making a ranking system of sorts, which means that they won't necessarily have one, especially considering how close the game is to launch.
Krevilz;943892 wrote:
iDiscoDieter;943890 wrote:
Krevilz;943883 wrote:
Ellen Degeneres;943878 wrote:
If Halo 4 doesn't have 1-50 and has some cR garbage like reach, I won't be buying it.


It doesn't have 1-50 and it has a new system that's probably going to be similar to cR called Spartan points, which is used to buy weapons and perks or as they're called "mods".

Thats Wrong. XP are the new Credits. U will earn XP for everythin you do (kill,assists,win, etc) and if u rank up, you will get some spartan points. With Spartan points u can buy things for your loadouts.


Do you have a source for that? Even so, it's pretty much the same thing.

Its not the same. You will buy things with the spartan points, not with the XP.
You got it wrong and asking me a source? really?
Watch the Gameinformer Hub. There is a Video with one of the MP designer, and he said the exact same thing.
I am Sword Base;943897 wrote:
Krevilz;943883 wrote:
Ellen Degeneres;943878 wrote:
If Halo 4 doesn't have 1-50 and has some cR garbage like reach, I won't be buying it.


It doesn't have 1-50 and it has a new system that's probably going to be similar to cR called Spartan points, which is used to buy weapons and perks or as they're called "mods".

That is a common misconception. Halo 4will have a progression system alongside a ranking system (ex. Inheritor, and Onyx or 5 Star general, and 50). Although they haven't told us what the newer system will be yet.

Also credits have been replaced with SP or spartan points, as to mimic cods exp system.

TBH though they tried adding a 1-50 VRS to Reach so I do not think we will be dissapointed in what the Ranking system is.

XP = For getting new levels/Ranks
Spartan Points = to buy things
People is it that hard to understand?
Halo 4's Changes To Competitive Multiplayer
iDiscoDieter;943901 wrote:
Krevilz;943892 wrote:
iDiscoDieter;943890 wrote:
Krevilz;943883 wrote:
Ellen Degeneres;943878 wrote:
If Halo 4 doesn't have 1-50 and has some cR garbage like reach, I won't be buying it.


It doesn't have 1-50 and it has a new system that's probably going to be similar to cR called Spartan points, which is used to buy weapons and perks or as they're called "mods".

Thats Wrong. XP are the new Credits. U will earn XP for everythin you do (kill,assists,win, etc) and if u rank up, you will get some spartan points. With Spartan points u can buy things for your loadouts.


Do you have a source for that? Even so, it's pretty much the same thing.

Its not the same. You will buy things with the spartan points, not with the XP.
You got it wrong and asking me a source? really?
Watch the Gameinformer Hub. There is a Video with one of the MP designer, and he said the exact same thing.


And the difference between Spartan points and XP is? If what you say is true, which I doubt, as I've never heard of this before, and XP allows you to get Spartan points, what is the real difference between the two? They both enable you to unlock perks and weapons.
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This post has been edited by a moderator. Please do not create alternate accounts to bypass forum bans. Alternate accounts will be permanently banned, and offending users will be subject to both temporary and permanent bans.


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