Would you forgive the Elites?

Community Halo Universe
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> > I think you kind of missed the entire point of the second half of Halo 2. They separated from the Covenant, and worked with Humanity. Sure it was in part to survive, and yet Thel dropped the bomb into saying that everything they believed was false.
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> > If a Sangheili was born in 2553, and you met him on the street in 2570, you would harbor that hate that happened nearly two decades ago, to a random Sangheili who has zero knowledge of such events?
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> I can assure you that Halo 2’s plot was not lost on me. The Elites were removed from the Covenant and alligned themselves (some of them, at least) with the UNSC. But they didn’t leave as the result of the Arbiter’s revelations- they left, at least initially, because the Brutes, under the Prophets’ orders, began their own war of extermination. If infighting between the Brutes and Elites had never broken out, would the Arbiter’s revealations from Guilty Spark have the same impact? Would the Elites then voluntarily leave the Covenant and work with humanity? It’s impossible to answer, but an interesting thought.
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> To your point, I wouldn’t harbor any ill-will towards Sangheili who lived before or after the Covenant War. It’s easy for me to say that though as a gamer with a full understanding of the game’s plot. If we were truly in that world, I think things become very murky. How much does the average UEG citizen know about the inner-workings of Covenant politics or religion? For most people, I think their opinions would be driven more by emotion than logic- after all, 23 billion of their fellow humans did just die.
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> > These situations are not black and white as you nor Naked Crook are making it to be (who still hasn’t responded to any logical counter argument against him, which should tell you something). Its funny how Halo 5 actually talks about two sides to the story, and yet people won’t view Locke’s side, and stay arrogant on Chief’s side, believing he is fully in the right. We don’t even know the situation, and yet we are already prejudging something that hasn’t even happened.
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> > An extermination, or even a disgrace of the Mantle in this game, would lead to Humanities extinction. I’m assuming you don’t want to see us die by the full force of the Flood? Cause the Flood in Halo CE, 2 and 3 was small and weak compared to what they actually are.
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> Agreed, it’s far from a black and white situation. I certainly wouldn’t favor an extermination of the Elites, so I hope my earlier post didn’t imply that. At the same time, for the characters living in that universe, true forgiveness may be a tall order. Reality is more grey than that.
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> The UNSC should continue to work with the Swords of Sangheilios and strive for peaceful coexistence. It’s mutually beneficial to do so, and fighting potential partners and allies simply for revenge isn’t a very sustainable policy. However, working together doesn’t necessarily have to equate to forgiveness. Lord Hood’s sentiment at the end of Halo 3 sums it up rather well.

“The brain wants to define itself by the past. The heart wants to define itself by the present.”

Basically, Humanity needs to get over it. It’s done, its past. The most they could do is make the situation worse or better. They could be humble and basically spit in the Forerunners face and successfully reclaim the Mantle (I know, the irony, but the Forerunners did a terrible job of upholding the Mantle), or they could do what Naked Cook is suggesting and straight up shoot themselves in the foot.

You did imply that in your comment.

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On that point we’re in agreement. For better or for worse, the fall of the Covenant significantly changed the galaxy’s political situation. It’s absolutely in humanity’s interest to take advantage of the situation and forge ties with old enemies, regardless of how they feel about their previous actions. It’s easier said than done, of course, but not doing so would be a missed opportunity.

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I hope that I would.

Hope.

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> So, in other words…if a tyrant comes to power who wants to resume the genocide against Humanity, all Sangheili will fall in line…like sheep. The civilians will not be filled with indignation or righteous anger against their leaders for an unjust war. No, quite the opposite. The civilian population will support a genocide because opposition to the dictates of their leaders is bad for them. Sangheili care more about their own hides than doing what is right. This not only makes them cowards, it also makes them an accessory to a genocide. There is no difference between active participation in a genocide and passive complacency to a genocide…ergo, they are all equally guilty.
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> This is why I say that all Sangheili are guilty of genocide. Whether they gave the order to fire the excavation laser, or they were doing tax returns at H&R Block…they are ALL equally guilty because they support their leaders, and they do not speak out against actions that are categorically wrong. This is why the Sangheili have to be crippled and oppressed. It has to be done to ensure the survival and freedom of other races in the Galaxy. It is for the greater good.
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> The fact is…Thel will not be calling the shots forever. Eventually, a genocidal maniac like Ripa or Jul is going to come to power, if not in the immediate lore, than by reasonable induction and prognostication based on the fact that everyone eventually dies.
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> I would love to see the lore explore this idea, and actually canonize an ONI contingency plan for resumed hostility of the Sangheili. ONI is the kind of organization that would use biological or chemical weapons to utterly ravage a species if it had to, like, a Genophage kind of weapon. I would love to see this idea explored, but that is my own personal wish. Bonus points for destroying their entire civilization. Humanity has the right and the duty to protect the Galaxy. Afterall…we are Reclaimers, inheritors of all that the Forerunners left behind.

Dude this is such a great idea! All the Sangheili should suffer because who knows when a psycho might come to power and and make them kill humans. While we’re at it, why doesn’t humanity just nuke all the brutes too, cause who knows when a genocidal maniac might replace Lydus as the leader of the brutes and lead them to war against humanity. Wouldn’t want to forget about the jackals and grunts either, the potential for a wacko taking control of those two races is so freaking high that I think every Jackal and grunt should be killed. Oh and lets not leave it at the non-humans, nuke all the outer colonies too because an insurrectionist group might pop up and murder some people, I mean who cares about all the innocent folk just trying to live their lives.(Sarcasm)

If you truly think like this xNakedCrookx, you have unequivocally failed to understand the entire premise of Forerunner trilogy, and nearly every piece of halo lore since. Your fantasy about Humanity kicking other races to the ground(not that they could in their present situation) shames the mantle that the many forerunners selflessly laid down their lives for. Also, one of the main points of the Sangheili human alliance is to make sure that people like Ripa Moramee or that Vaz guy don’t exist or are atleast, kept to a minimum. One way to do this is for the UNSC to advocate for increased exposure between the two races so that hatred born of ignorance will be kept to a minimum.

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> While I agree that collective guilt as a general concept tends to be counterintuitive, I’m not sure the Sangheili’s situation parallels any that we can draw from real-world history. We talk about blaming the front-line Elites as opposed to those that were back home on Sangheilios, but as far as we know they were all Covenant.

The other issue I have with the collective blame/punishment thing in this thread is that I don’t think people are applying it correctly, because I don’t think people understand what the Covenant is and how species relates to it. It’s true that all Sangheili, save for the Ussan’s, were Covenant but this is true for all other species too. All Grunts, Jackals, Lekgolo, San-Shyuum, Huragok and Jiralhanea were Covenant. The blame should fall as equally over all of them if collective blame is what one is going for in light of all Sangheili being Covenant.

Species doesn’t matter in the Covenant politically, as far as I can see. What started as an alliance between several species-as-polities became a single nation with species-as-ethnicity. America isn’t an alliance between white people, hispanic people, black people, etc; it’s a country with different ethnicity which are all American. In a similar sense I don’t think it’s correct to view the Covenant as an alliance between species anymore because its all been mixed in and melted together, and politically they are all Covenant. It’s fully integrated. When the Covenant broke up it didn’t break up into its different species, it broke up into several smaller Covenants. Sanghelios is populated by many of the former client species as was seen in the Kilo-5 novels (Even Brutes live there), which technically makes Swords of Sanghelios a multi-species faction. Jul’s Neo-Covenant is obviously multi-species. A character from Halo Escalations (Zef 'Trahl) said that dozens of warlords claim to lead the Covenant now, but in reality only lead a small fraction of it.

So, going back to what I original called out, I don’t understand why one species should carry the blame for the crimes of the Covenant when it was a single nation acting as one. I think people are trying to categorize everything physically and are so fixated upon species meaning something that they aren’t seeing what the Covenant really was.

> Sure, some Elites wondered why humanity wasn’t offered admission to the Covenant, and others felt humans were honorable or worthy foes, but despite some minor sympathies to the best of my understanding we don’t know of any Elites that were truly opposed to the war.
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> All available sources seem to indicate that at that time, the Covenant was a truly monolithic organization and that the vast majority if not all members of its respective species were committed to its goals. For some species, such as the Lekgolo and Kig-Yar, the Covenant was more pragmatic than anything, but from what we have to go on, most Elites were true believers in the Great Journey, regardless of whether that belief was misguided. In that sense, there’s not a lot separating the Elites on the front lines from those back home. Now, groups like the Ussans should get a pass since they were out of contact with the rest of the species and didn’t even know of the war, but as far as I know there aren’t any known anti-war dissidents in Covenant space during the Human-Covenant conflict. Remember, the civil conflicts between the Elites post-Halo 3 were a result of the new knowledge that the Great Journey and the Prophets were false- prior to that though, they all seemed to be on the same page in their fight against humanity.

There’s evidence of anti-war sentiment, but no mention of anti-war movements. Given though the Covenant’s history of putting down movement with mass murder (E.g. The Ussans, the Grunt Rebellion) and it’s track record with removing other rebellions surgically (E.g. Halo 2 Heretics and the Halo Wars Heretics) I don’t think there’s going to have been much fight left in people. The Covenant’s ruling class* were practically unassailable.

343i has been taking a more realistic approach to the Covenant as of late, and it seems as though they’ve actually looked at the Covenant’s aims and goals critically and asked a few questions Bungie never did. It was mentioned in Contact Harvest by the Prophet of Truth that one of the central themes of Covenant faith was that all were free to join and go on the Great Journey. This was ironically enacted for thousands of years through the forced subjugation of everyone they encountered, but nevertheless everyone was included and weren’t shut out based on who they were. So it seems to me that the more zealous you became in the Covenant, the more opposed you should have been to the war with humanity because it was essentially against the spirit of the Covenant that all could go on the Great Journey. At worst it should have caused some major confusion as it introduced a contradiction to their faith - all are included, but the Prophets say to destroy this race anyway.

This was raised in Broken Circle where a senior Prophet (Zo Resken I think?) privately calls out the logical inconsistencies in Truth’s argument for humanity’s extinction. Even the charge that humans were heretics and destroying Forerunner relics was historically irrelevant as far as the Covenant was concerned, as according to Resken all Covenant species were previously accused of heresy and the Hunters were even accused of having destroyed Forerunner relics themselves, but yet all were accepted.

So this idea that there was anti-war sentiment is not only realistic but highly consistent with the lore, but it took a long time to finally result in the Great Schism because these people were poised against a regime that would happily glass a planet of Covenant citizens in order to make a point (Like the Grunt home world). The Covenant was a bit like a miniature Xeno version of the Imperium of Man from 40k, tbh. However the discontent was definitely there simmering beneath the surface and was the reason why Truth started the Schism; he was losing control and trying to preserve his power.

*The people who I think shouldn’t be forgiven. That’s high ranking and privileged San-Shyuum and Sangheili, and anyone else who found themselves in a position of power to influence policy and action, like Jiralhanea Alpha Chieftains. Species shouldn’t have anything to do with it.

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I can’t really give a great answer to that. All I can say is that the situation would be like Himmler (not Rommel because unlike the Arbiter he didn’t take direct action against the Jews) having a change of heart and breaking off many Nazis and allying with the Jews.

Would the Jews look more kindly toward him? Should they get over the whole genocide thing in this fictional scenario?

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> 2533274835068816;126:
> 343i has been taking a more realistic approach to the Covenant as of late, and it seems as though they’ve actually looked at the Covenant’s aims and goals critically and asked a few questions Bungie never did. It was mentioned in Contact Harvest by the Prophet of Truth that one of the central themes of Covenant faith was that all were free to join and go on the Great Journey. This was ironically enacted for thousands of years through the forced subjugation of everyone they encountered, but nevertheless everyone was included and weren’t shut out based on who they were. So it seems to me that the more zealous you became in the Covenant, the more opposed you should have been to the war with humanity because it was essentially against the spirit of the Covenant that all could go on the Great Journey. At worst it should have caused some major confusion as it introduced a contradiction to their faith - all are included, but the Prophets say to destroy this race anyway.

Yeah, the war against humanity definitely appears to be at odds with what we know of Covenant religion. We know some questioned why humanity was not offered inclusion in the Covenant, but it appears that for most adherents the Prophets’ word was enough. Given the power and influence that the San’Shyuum cultivated over thousands of years as the sole voice of authority on religious issues, it’s understandable that others would follow their will, even if they didn’t fully understand the reasoning behind it. I think it makes the revelations and betrayals that occurred in Halo 2 that much more meaningful.

I certainly enjoyed Bungie’s story, but I really appreciate the realistic and complex approach that 343 has taken in showing a post-Great Schism universe. It would be easy to divide loyalties and motivations by species (which is what we saw in Halo 3, though I can understand the reasoning behind that from a gameplay perspective), but 343 seems dedicated to showing a much more fragmented universe. It makes sense that the loss of Covenant hegemony and religion would lead to a number of disparate and overlapping factions, each with a different view towards humanity and Covenant religion. Some abandoned their faith entirely, some adopted the beliefs of their ancient ancestors, and some attempted to reconcile what they’ve always believed with what they now know is true. These reactionary movements feel real, and that adds a lot of weight to the story.

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For many reasons, i would say yes. JUST LOOK TO THE FUTURE GUYS AND GIRLS. don’t need remind yourself from the past everyday now, okay?

Much like the older post i would have to agree, that forgiveness is a good thing. If i were in Halo, and if i were a civilian (yet still live), i would certainly join the UNSC.

At first, when i would join the UNSC, i would want to take my home back, avenge my families and friends deaths. To kill all of them, every last one. However, when things have changed. Whether I like it or not, i would have to accept the peace between humanity, and others as well.

Second, when the covenant decides to eliminate the rest of the sangheili, which caused the great schism. It would have felt like betrayal. Then the sangheili, will now know what its like when they will do the same to humanity as well. (BTW, read the comic Halo Union, it think that it’s a magnificent comic, you should read it too. If you want the link, just ask me, and ill be happy to post the link.)

Thirdly, say like, that i met a Sangheili, and that he/she is more trust worthy, forgiving, that has emotional like feelings, and felt really sorry that it has happened between the war with them and us. Then yes i would mostly for a chance forgive that sangheili, whether he or she felt either really good about what i have to say, or still feel sad, that i maybe would hug them (just sayin).

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> 2533274890107301;129:
> For many reasons, i would say yes. JUST LOOK TO THE FUTURE GUYS AND GIRLS. don’t need remind yourself from the past everyday now, okay?
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> Much like the older post i would have to agree, that forgiveness is a good thing. If i were in Halo, and if i were a civilian (yet still live), i would certainly join the UNSC.
>
> At first, when i would join the UNSC, i would want to take my home back, avenge my families and friends deaths. To kill all of them, every last one. However, when things have changed. Whether I like it or not, i would have to accept the peace between humanity, and others as well.
>
> Second, when the covenant decides to eliminate the rest of the sangheili, which caused the great schism. It would have felt like betrayal. Then the sangheili, will now know what its like when they will do the same to humanity as well. (BTW, read the comic Halo Union, it think that it’s a magnificent comic, you should read it too. If you want the link, just ask me, and ill be happy to post the link.)
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> Thirdly, say like, that i met a Sangheili, and that he/she is more trust worthy, forgiving, that has emotional like feelings, and felt really sorry that it has happened between the war with them and us. Then yes i would mostly for a chance forgive that sangheili, whether he or she felt either really good about what i have to say, or still feel sad, that i maybe would hug them (just sayin).

Do not Necro please.

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“Look to the future” while bringing back a thread from the past…

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> > 2533274890107301;129:
> > For many reasons, i would say yes. JUST LOOK TO THE FUTURE GUYS AND GIRLS. don’t need remind yourself from the past everyday now, okay?
> >
> > Much like the older post i would have to agree, that forgiveness is a good thing. If i were in Halo, and if i were a civilian (yet still live), i would certainly join the UNSC.
> >
> > At first, when i would join the UNSC, i would want to take my home back, avenge my families and friends deaths. To kill all of them, every last one. However, when things have changed. Whether I like it or not, i would have to accept the peace between humanity, and others as well.
> >
> > Second, when the covenant decides to eliminate the rest of the sangheili, which caused the great schism. It would have felt like betrayal. Then the sangheili, will now know what its like when they will do the same to humanity as well. (BTW, read the comic Halo Union, it think that it’s a magnificent comic, you should read it too. If you want the link, just ask me, and ill be happy to post the link.)
> >
> > Thirdly, say like, that i met a Sangheili, and that he/she is more trust worthy, forgiving, that has emotional like feelings, and felt really sorry that it has happened between the war with them and us. Then yes i would mostly for a chance forgive that sangheili, whether he or she felt either really good about what i have to say, or still feel sad, that i maybe would hug them (just sayin).
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> Do not Necro please.

Necro?

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> “Look to the future” while bringing back a thread from the past…

What is that a joke or a threat?

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It can be hard to forgive a former enemy, especially after fighting in a war with them, for what they did. But I believe, in the end, it might be worth it.

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> It can be hard to forgive a former enemy, especially after fighting in a war with them, for what they did. But I believe, in the end, it might be worth it.

I couldn’t agree more :slight_smile:

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well, never forget, and forgiving could take generations. The first generations probably just dont want another war so they just hold their hatred and are somewhat happy to have some assistance.
its war though, there were deaths in both sides. Both believed to be right. They didnt try to exterminate humanity simply because they wanted to (at least not all, there potentially is warmongers in every large faction).

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> Everyone knows the elites. The primary enemies of halo CE, reach, and half of halo 2. Some people play as them, some people hate seeing them in Multiplayer, and some people write disturbing fanfiction about them.
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> But one undeniable fact is that the elites are responsible of the deaths of not hundreds, not thousands, not even millions, but BILLIONS of humans, both military and civilian (mostly civilian). And their justification for a while was “honor” and a religious belief that proved to be false.
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> While they did switch sides in the end, and ultimately help humanity win the war, the fact remains that they are quite literally the biggest and worst genocidal enemies humanity has ever faced. So know all of this, would YOU forgive them? Would YOU simply let the billions dead slide?

Of course not, its one of the most asinine moments in the universe. Theres no way that people would let something like near genocide and the death of 60% of the human population go. Nations have formed grudges for FAR FAR less than that. I think its purely because Bungie and the writers think of the series as a Space Opera so everyone has to not act like a real person and magnanimously accept peace without spite. Which is absurd, people do not act like that.

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I awnser this with a quaestion from Paarthunax.
Is it better to be born good? Or overcome your evil through actions?
I could forgive them. Remember they’ve spent centuries living under a lie.

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I don’t know who wouldn’t forgive them.

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> 2533274890107301;132:
> > 2533274829152751;130:
> > > 2533274890107301;129:
> > > For many reasons, i would say yes. JUST LOOK TO THE FUTURE GUYS AND GIRLS. don’t need remind yourself from the past everyday now, okay?
> > >
> > > Much like the older post i would have to agree, that forgiveness is a good thing. If i were in Halo, and if i were a civilian (yet still live), i would certainly join the UNSC.
> > >
> > > At first, when i would join the UNSC, i would want to take my home back, avenge my families and friends deaths. To kill all of them, every last one. However, when things have changed. Whether I like it or not, i would have to accept the peace between humanity, and others as well.
> > >
> > > Second, when the covenant decides to eliminate the rest of the sangheili, which caused the great schism. It would have felt like betrayal. Then the sangheili, will now know what its like when they will do the same to humanity as well. (BTW, read the comic Halo Union, it think that it’s a magnificent comic, you should read it too. If you want the link, just ask me, and ill be happy to post the link.)
> > >
> > > Thirdly, say like, that i met a Sangheili, and that he/she is more trust worthy, forgiving, that has emotional like feelings, and felt really sorry that it has happened between the war with them and us. Then yes i would mostly for a chance forgive that sangheili, whether he or she felt either really good about what i have to say, or still feel sad, that i maybe would hug them (just sayin).
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> > Do not Necro please.
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> Necro?

You brought back a thread that was more than 2 years old.

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Interesting question. I wouldn’t until they repaid us with something. Forerunner artifacts, caches of Covenant tech, and some starships.