Going to be hard to fill 12v12 matches with same skill level, ideally same ping, can’t control how much desync each player gets though, that’s a true wildcard. The game literally can’t make it fair when you have wide skill range groups either - this was true in past halo as well. People play better with friends, always have. Some people are just bad at certain modes, certain maps. Real life things happen while in game, not like everyone is trying 100% every moment every game. Quitters.
Add all that together and you’re still going to end up with unbalanced matches. Happened in literally every halo with match making.
What’s funny in your 100-24 game there was probably a moment early when it was like 7-3 where your team could have stopped whatever their big first run was, guessing wasp. Your good players died though and that the fodder on your team couldn’t do anything and then the spawn trap begins. A tale as old as time. Sometimes blow outs happen.
Also funny reading the other comments, your 100-24 game implied sbmm is NOT tight enough, match wasn’t even close. Others still saying too tight, bronzies should be paired with onyx 2000+ lol, literally just throw everyone of all skill levels into the match and see what happens - sounds awful.
In a fully random set up we’re talking being the top dog in over 60% of your games. And having an average team MMR advantage of more than 100 points (which is huge) in half of your games.
You will face a similar disadvantage in about 12% of games.
The games don’t have to be close.
You just have to feel you had a chance.
People keep talking as if SBMM produces epic 49-50 wins in the dying seconds every game. That’s far from the truth.
But dominating most games and humiliating the opposition is boring. And humiliating for them.
Why?
Both sides get random weapons. Which evens out over time. Which provides a contest.
But the bit I really don’t get is why SBMM is so supposedly exhausting?
In one breath people say they don’t mind getting beaten. But just because it’s by a few points somehow makes it exhausting? Why?
You only have to play at the intensity you want to play. So just do it. Forget about how close the score is… or what the result it. Have fun. In a game / environment where everyone else now has the same experience.
I suspect what people are really missing is playing at a comfy level that scores you the huge win / double figure KD. And they are happy to take the occasional loss to feed the ego with the next dozen or so beltings.
How did it make playing together impossible? I’m assuming your friends felt like they were the worst players in the match too often. That’s certainly how my friends felt, and since I was the most dedicated player they have all given up and gone to other games.
The problem is, what is the better alternative? If you are significantly better than the friends that you play with, they are generally going to be struggling, or your team is going to easily win most games. Either Infinite’s match making allows for stacked teams to stomp random opponents or it attampts to balance the games and the worst players in any squad will usually be struggling in most matches. If you get really lucky, the composition of both teams will be almost identical and your friends only have to struggle against one player that is significantly more skilled than they are. Having the SBMM aim more for that kind of matchup would be ideal but how often is it actually avaialable in the current pool of players?
Playing BTB also helps because the MMR of your squad doesn’t effect the whole team composition that much but until the mode gets some significant love from 343i, it’s a pretty limited option.
SBMM creates heathy competition and is great in ranked game types as it pits similar skilled players together. When this happens you don’t want to be the one to let the side down. So one of your objects is to keep up with the pace, which inevitable ends with you working harder, its a bit like preserving your ego and self preservation - all one of the same. — .
However, when you are matched with all types of skill ranges, the urge to keep up with your neighbour dissipates. This is down to it being unrealistic, which causes the game to be less intense - a bit of fun.
An example would be Argentina vs France in the World Cup being a ranked game with SBMM compared to playing football in the playground at school on a Friday lunch time.
The World Cup game is serious as the players have got something to prove as they are so tightly matched. Whereas on the playground you might have the best player in the school matched up with the kid who has two left feet. It doesn’t stop the kids playing everyday in the playground. why cause its fun.
The is one thing I would suggest though… I feel social games with no sbmm should be 5v5 or 6v6 as it helps the not so fortunate players hide better - in case bullies start to bully. Unfortunately we have to live with them. So in numbers it can improve the overall experience like the relaxed SBMM in BTB.
Which speaks more to the mindset of the player in question.
I imagine it dissipates because the it’s not “all types” of skill ranges. It’s “lower types” of skill ranges.
The further to the right of the skill curve you get, the less opponents that randomly pop to the right of you.
A mid Onyx player would be the top dog on the field in over 95% of their matches.
Another analogy would be take Argentina vs France and compare their output and intensity from a World Cup match vs a World Cup Qualifier vs a standard international game vs an international friendly vs an exhibition match vs a practice match.
And this is the sort of thing we should be discussing.
What can we do to even things up and rely less on SBMM?
The biggest mistake 343 are making here is taking the same players from ranked and putting them in social - but on the same maps, with similar weapon and equipment set ups, and the same rules / objectives.
And then they wonder why games become sweaty.
5v5 is a great start. It introduces chaos and unpredictability.
I would take it a step further and go 3v3v3. It’s only one extra player on the map - but you are always outnumbered 2:1.
Make the games shorter - it would allow a wider range of players to be on the field without the huge blowouts / thrashings that can occur.
Lower the strictness of the SBMM - but add some dynamic handicapping to even the matches out on the fly. eg. if a player is dominating - make equipment and power weapons don’t appear for them to pick up an use. Or buff struggling players with an OS on spawn.
If everyone is there to just have some fun and chill - then it shouldn’t worry them. And handicapping for and against should take the stress of the result out of the equation for everyone.
Continuing to spitball…
Make game multi-round - but pick a different game mode for each round. Round 1 = Oddball. Round 2 = CTF. Round 3 = Attrition.
Introduce innovative scoring systems that mix things up. Make it harder for good players to score and easier for lesser players to score. Set it up so a team can’t get any more than 5 points up (like they do in kids sports). Not only does that get everyone involved - but it takes the competitive sting out the match for those who feel it has to be them driving the scoreboard going forward.
Set the social side of the game up so that it’s purely going out there and having five minutes of fun.
Ideally, the matchmaker could put an Onyx paired with 3 Gold/Silver on the opposing team so not only is the team average MMR similar, but so is the individual skill variances within the team makeups.
This of course requires there to be enough population to allow the matchmaker to pull in players of a similar individual makeup and therefore reach a similar team average MMR, but with a more balanced team makeup to your own.
When I played with one group of friends I struggled to carry my group and I had to work extra hard to win the games.
When I played with another group (two onyx players) it was hard to keep pace and I struggled to stay positive or had to work harder than I wanted to to stay positive especial in a social game.
I agree that some sort of SBMM albeit a very weak one like we have in BTB and maybe larger squads in Social 6v6 or 5v5. But then the maps we have in arena 4v4 would work with larger squads.
It’s strange really, because I’ve spoken to multiple people who claim that they love SBMM. I have a friend who’s basically a Genji one trick on Overwatch, apart from it’s not a very good trick since he’s about Silver level. However, he finds Overwatch 2 incredibly fun since whilst he is still noticably bad, so is everyone else.
I think when it comes down to this, SBMM is actually pretty decent. Trouble is, he’s not getting better since everyone’s bad. He can play for hours and not improve since he’s not playing against good players who will punish his bad habbits and he’s not teaming up with good players so if he does group up, he isn’t being taught how to play the game better.
It’s all a bit too ‘wrap the players in cottonwool’ for me, and what’s the end goal here? Alienate long time players and bring in a new audience? News flash, as soon as those new audience members get better they’ll be thrown into constant sweat filled games where they struggle to play with the friends they made at lower levels, then they’ll leave.
They don’t necessarily want to “improve”. Not in the terms of ranked anyway.
Besides, your MMR drifts with form - so you will constantly be exposed to people a bit better than you. There is scope for natural improvement.
The end goal is definitely to bring a new (paying) audience.
As for alienating long time players? How is making them play vs people of their own skill alienating. I honestly don’t get that. Is the game supposed to continually feed them -yoink- players? How does that help them to get better? Apart from a boost to their ego?
Hopefully they will learn to relax and just have fun.
Like when I play with my sons. They have to carry me (a lot). But we run around, chatting, laughing, and trying new things. But because everyone is just playing and not focused on personal performance or the result - we have fun.
As longs as both sides have a chance, we’re good.
I really don’t understand this concept of “sweating” in a Social game. Don’t get me wrong. I sweat over every detail in a ranked match (well, I would, if I could get one).
But Social is for charging naked into battle with nothing but a small knife for peeling fruit.
Problem with this, all players are on a SBMM system- the playground is a random system and teams are formed on friendships not skill… although with some bias. However in the game the skill level would not not be inhibited by a system it is inclusive to all.
These were my streams of thought too. It doesn’t work slapping a social sticker on ranked parameters. Unfortunately most maps on Infinite are built for HCS.
I think there needs to be a distinction of what people want when they say unranked/social.
I would like a unranked arena playlist so when I want to play ranked and get use to the game I would like to play a similar playlist to the ranked arena mode without it having an impact on my CSR.
I would also like a playlist where I can choose to use the whole sandbox solo or with friends. But still choosing the type of games I want to play.
Then thirdly I would like a party playlist where randomness is key. Like fiesta / action sack / VIP / Infection / Griftball.
The above playlists have one thing in common winning isn’t the key factor that draws people to the game. It’s fun. In these situations more so the later two SBMM could be introduced or not…
…however we must not determine it’s presence purely by our opinion of how we play but we should accept the lack of or implementation of SBMM by how well a playlist is populated.
Well, for one with the way SBMM is set up, I can’t play with friends due to their skill being much lower than my own. It forces then into ridiculously unfair matches if they choose to play with me, and since we can no longer play as a group it leaves us feeling alienated.
It has nothing to do with boosting ego, it has almost everything to do with being able to play with friends and enjoy the game.
Maybe if your SBMM level was higher, you’d understand.
Imagine spawning in, and you’re instantly being drilled halfway across the map. Most of your opponents seem questionable at best (in terms of if they’re using cheats) and even your own team of randoms are demanding you play as optimal as possible despite playing fiesta. I kid you not, we had a 20 kill lead and my team were asking people to hide and being toxic. Like just dude, it’s fiesta. You can’t get more casual.
Not only that, but wait times can be awful at times. Because the game wants to put you against top level players, I’ve found myself unable to play certain gamemodes. I don’t mean that I didn’t want to play them because of the players, I literally mean the game locked me out of gamemodes saying there weren’t enough people to support matchmaking on a brand new gamemode not even 24 hours after a update.
So when I team up with friends and they see how awful my matchmaking experience can be? Yeah, they stand no chance. Them going 1 to 19 in BTB ain’t fun.
Again, by the sounds of it your SBMM is set to a pretty average state. The game is designed to be as competitive as possible. Because I can position myself and my grenades well, I’m not allowed to play the game for fun.
If you are (sounds like high) Onyx… and your mates are Silver / Gold… what type of team structure would you like to match up against?
How are you going to make it a fair and equitable experience for the opposition?
You pretty much have no other choice but pitch the opponents somewhere in the middle. So, in this scenario you have to carry. Your mates have to survive.
There isn’t much option.
If your opponents are pitched to compete with your lowly mates - you will dominate (ego or not) and ruin the game. Definitely for the opposition, and probably even for your mates (as you steal all the kills).
Bottom line is you choose to go in with the squad of widely spread ranks. You have dictated the dynamic of the game. So surely the onus is on your team to deal with it?
And again. In this scenario I would advocate for some sort of handicapping playlist - which would allow all players, Bronze to Onyx, to play against each other.
Condescending… and somewhat off point.
It’s all relative.
And besides. Your MMR in Social and Ranked can be completely different. So I imagine what you are experiencing is really a reflection of how you play in Social.
Been there, done that. I have a few mates who are Onyx level.
But I Spartan up and deal with it.
AND still manage to have a lot of fun at the same time.
Sounds horrible. But not necessarily a SBMM problem.
We all hate people like that.
But I just switch off to it. You get to define your own fun.
Population issue. Affects people of all skill level.
But even if you are affected more than others - the answer isn’t just dropping you into a lobby of average players.
Sounds like the skill gap between you and them is astronomical.
And probably can’t be fixed.
Thank you.
I’ve worked hard to get there.
So you are playing Social the same way as Ranked?
And expecting a different result?
I play custom games vs players way less skilled than myself. I’m happy to play differently to even things up. I don’t pick up power weapons or equipment. I tend to use weapons that I’m not comfy with. And very recklessly (recharging your shields is for wusses).
It’s a lot of fun.
Just be creative. In one game we were up by heaps - so I decided that my next five kills were going to be mongoose splatters. In another I spent the whole game grabbing warthogs to be the designated driver for my hapless Gold ranked buddy.
But essentially we are coming back around to you wanting to position yourself and use grenades well… but it’s not fun if your opponents can do the same thing.
Each week I have a group of players who come together to play customs. Ranging from Silver to Onyx. And I have to try and juggle game types and teams to keep it interesting for everyone.
I just don’t see how SBMM can do anything different.
But on the same token I know that randomising isn’t the solution.
And obviously you are one of the more extreme examples - trying to group high Onyx with people who sound Silver to low Gold.
I’ve harped on this before… but we really need some sort of handicapping playlist to get around this problem. Or someway of gradually adding in handicapping in these scenarios to fix the problem.
This is the absolute core of the argument. Unless someone can propose an alternate match making system that will give them the result that they desire, without putting the opposing team at a significant disadvantage there’s really nothing to discuss.
343i (and all the other major developers) aren’t suddenly going to cater match making to squads with a large skill gap, at the expense of all other players. I actually share the frustration that it’s hard to play with friends who are significantly worse than you are. Although my firends and I are probably doing it at significantly lower ranks than Lanky_B_YT, its the same basic issue. I just don’t have a solution.
Darwi’s idea of a handicap system is interesting but it would be a big job to implement. One thing I think would be good in a handicap playlist would be varied respawn timers. If you take out their best player you get a significant period of time before they spawn back in, so that your team can hopefully press the advantage.
Not easy to balance though. Would take some time and some serious data collection.
The hardest problem would be selling it to the populace. When it comes down to it, most of the “good” players, despite their claims of just wanting to have fun with their friends, aren’t that altruistic when you start talking about nerfing their KD.
hiding equipment and power weapons from good players
variable health, shields, and damage output.
buffs on spawn, eg. OS or camo, for those really struggling.
There is so much you could muck around with to even the game out. Some of them could even be done dynamically to keep the game on an even keel. If one team drifts out to a big lead (or teams become unbalanced with quitters) then you can gently bring them back together.
Do it right and you could get rid of SBMM altogether.
But again. You have to convince the “better” players that it’s chill to play a game of Social and not have a double figure KD.
I don’t know how hard the implementation would actualy be but your actually asking them to implement totally new systems. They still haven’t quite nailed down post game reports and no one can figure out how they decide who actually get xp points for being the MVP, so I don’t think that implementing these seemingly simple systems will be as easy as you hope. Plus the balancing and required testing is all part of what’s required to implement it.
I figure that could be helped with the “scoring system based on rank or KD”. For example if you’re ‘too good’ for a game of slayer you are in, your deaths could count as minus points for your team’s score. This would possibly also make the good players play a little less agressively and give other players a little more breathing room. It wouldn’t change your KD for stats purposes but would balance out chances of winning a little.
Also you have to bear in mind that just by being in these matchups and getting less skilled opponents their KD ratio is already going to be higher than usual before any of the handicaps start to balance it out a little.
On the flip side in this scenario, if a player with a low enough MMR is killed by a high ranked player they could actually not be credited with a death for stats purposes. It’s limited in that it won’t change thier actual experience during the game but it might make them feel better at the end.
Josh was always bragging about how they could test these sort of things virtually.
They know enough about players and their expected kills and deaths to run detailed simulations.
But of course, it would still need some real world trials.
The one we’re working on is KD * 10.
And this is your current in-game KD. Not your career KD. So it essentially acts as a dynamic handicap.
So if your current K/D is 0.8 you are worth 8 points for the kill.
If your K/D is 2.2 then you are worth 22 points.
The trick is you can’t start with a K or D of zero. Otherwise you are worth zero points (if you haven’t had a kill) or generate a divide by zero error (if you haven’t had a death).
So we start with a seeding K/D of 5/5 = 1.0
We’ve tried it in a couple of games (scripting is fickle in the ‘beta’) and it’s been promising.
We also apply an OS if your KD is less than one. For 15 + (1 - KD) * 75 seconds (which gives you between 15 and 90 seconds of OS).
That’s really cool. I like the idea that starting from a base of 5 kills and 5 deaths stops any wild swings in points early on in the game, as well as preventing the mathematical scripting issues.