Will nerfing the DMR truly make Halo4 better?

Simple question…

My thing is people are complaining that this is the only weapon being used in the game.

So how come nobody complained when it was a total BR fest in Halo 3?
It makes me wonder if the reason people are complaining is because their former favorite weapon the BR is no longer the weapon of choice.

So what will truly change once the DMR is nerfed and the BR moves ahead?

Won’t the same complaints persist only with a different weapon? I don’t get it.

I just don’t understand how the game will be balanced with the BR and DMR switching power rank positions. Can someone explain how the game will be more balanced with the BR supposedly now becoming a 4 shot weapon ?

When the weapon re-balance happens, people will most likely complain about a different gun.

Nature of the beast.

The problem is the aim assist and bullet magnetism. The DMR already has the fastest rate of fire second only to the carbine. This allows people to spam and due to the high aim assist and bullet magnetism previously mentioned, it is very to use.

This has been a long debated topic OP and people have already stated their suspicions about people just wanting the BR to rule. It does seem that way because that is the only weapon that is only on some people’s minds when thinking of the DMR, but the DMR really is unbalanced.

However, almost all the other load out weapons are just as bad.

If the carbine did not have its invisible spread then it would be a killing machine.

If the dmr did not exist then the br would be the monster

I am not sure about the LR. It seems somewhat harder to use than the other weapons.

> The problem is the aim assist and bullet magnetism. The DMR already has the fastest rate of fire second only to the carbine. This allows people to spam and due to the high aim assist and bullet magnetism previously mentioned, it is very to use.
>
> This has been a long debated topic OP and people have already stated their suspicions about people just wanting the BR to rule. It does seem that way because that is the only weapon that is only on some people’s minds when thinking of the DMR, but the DMR really is unbalanced.
>
> However, almost all the other load out weapons are just as bad.
>
> If the carbine did not have its invisible spread then it would be a killing machine.
>
> If the dmr did not exist then the br would be the monster
>
> I am not sure about the LR. It seems somewhat harder to use than the other weapons.

So again you believe the DMR to be unbalanced. But explain how the game will become balanced by nerfing it.

As has already been mentioned another weapon will be the next one in line for complaints.

I guess what I’m asking is, assuming the DMR gets nerfed, can you or anyone give me a real detailed explanation of how the game will truly be balanced in such a way that I won’t say, “Well weapon X will now be overpowered and the obvious weapon of choice now and the new target of complaining.”

My point is that if you can’t give a rational explanation then what the heck is the purpose of kicking and screaming for a DMR nerf when all we’ll be doing is jumping from one barbecue grill to another that has the same amount of flames with the same temperature but just with a different coat of painting and architecture on the outside?

Seems to me we’ll just be going around in endless circles.

> <mark>When the weapon re-balance happens, people will most likely complain about a different gun.</mark>
>
> Nature of the beast.

I concur

OP: i think the only thing thats changing is the Range of Fire of the DMR. However, stay tuned with the Bulletin, it will say it, if not, the Admins will probably mention something.

> OP: i think the only thing thats changing is the Range of Fire of the DMR.

Is there a specific link suggesting this?

> So again you believe the DMR to be unbalanced. But explain how the game will become balanced by nerfing it.

LR will be the best at long range.
DMR will be better than the BR at Long, Better than the LR at close.
BR will be the best at close range.

The DMR will function as a utility weapon in the purest sense of the word. It will be very good at all ranges but the best at none. However, someone who is good at positioning themselves against BR/LR users will be able to win against them.

It’s a good thing to have a weapon that rewards proper positioning. If you are outside the BR’s range, you win. If you are within close range to a LR user, chances are you win.

I’d compare it to the soldier from TF2. The soldier beats a sniper at close range, but is dominated at long range. The soldier beats a heavy at long range, but is dominated at close range. The soldier wins based on how well he can position himself relative to his enemies.

The only issue I see is the Carbine, which could potentially tie the BR at medium but beat it at longish ranges. But that’s fairly minor compared to what we have now.

> people will most likely complain about a different gun.

Better they complain about one gun being slightly OP than three guns being trash.

They turned an Arena game into a Custom Loadout game, of course people aren’t going to be happy to begin with. Add in that you can spawn with a min sniper and there will be complaints.

> LR will be the best at long range.
> DMR will be better than the BR at Long, Better than the LR at close.
> BR will be the best at close range.
>
> The DMR will function as a utility weapon in the purest sense of the word. It will be very good at all ranges but the best at none. However, someone who is good at positioning themselves against BR/LR users will be able to win against them.
>
> It’s a good thing to have a weapon that rewards proper positioning. If you are outside the BR’s range, you win. If you are within close range to a LR user, chances are you win.
>
> I’d compare it to the soldier from TF2. The soldier beats a sniper at close range, but is dominated at long range. The soldier beats a heavy at long range, but is dominated at close range. The soldier wins based on how well he can position himself relative to his enemies.
>
> The only issue I see is the Carbine, which could potentially tie the BR at medium but beat it at longish ranges. But that’s fairly minor compared to what we have now.

Thank you. One of the better responses I’ve seen in a long time regarding this whole balancing issue.

The reason that so many people complain now while nobody complained back in Halo 3 is that Halo 4 is a custom loadout shooter instead of an arena shooter. In Halo 3 what other option did you have to spawn with? You all spawned with the same guns, so how can it be OP when you had nothing to compare it to? I realize the Carbine was in the game but it wasn’t something you could spawn with, as a map pick up it was fine.

In Halo 4 people get to choose what they like. I prefer the BR, but enjoy using the Light Rifle too. When somebody can spawn with a weapon that is stronger than mine it is an issue. Please don’t say “well just adapt” because I don’t like the DMR, I don’t like how you can just camp at the back picking people off, it’s not for me. In a loadout shooter all primary guns need balance.

dynamatrix explained what the new balance will be quite well. The DMR I believe is getting a range reduction, the BR is becoming a 4 SK with a lower rate of fire, and the Carbine is becoming a 7-shot, aka a more evenly balanced sandbox. Now I would have preferred just slowing down the ROF on the DMR but I will settle for this instead.

If the BR becomes over powered there wont be a problem with the BR because people love it so much. There wont be enough voices to be heard.

If most people are happy with the BR being the top dog it won’t matter. Democracy.
Those who can’t deal with it may be powerless to do anything.

Who’s gonna complain about it on the same level that the DMR was? DMR users won’t have a voice in these forums or anywhere else for big maps and any automatic users will just be told they have no skill for smaller maps.

The only people who might be listened to are LR and Carbine users but unless these guns become 100 times more popular and there’s more of them than BR users an OP BR will just have to be something everyone else will have to get used to.

I’m pretty sure 343 will not do this on purpose but then again from a business standpoint why not do it? It would be mean but it won’t affect their business anyway that will be a major problem.

The BR will kill a little faster but has the least range
The Carbine will kill around the same as the BR, but will have more range due to being single shot
The Light Rifle will destroy at long range
The DMR will be a utility weapon.

I have a feeling that LR users may complain that it’s unscoped fire is too weak and maybe some people complaining that the LR is now too strong, but at least it has less range and the scoped fire makes up for being less effective up close.

> So how come nobody complained when it was a total BR fest in Halo 3?

People did complain.
The players who wanted to use any weapon not a BR complained about the weakness of the non-BR’s.
The players who used nothing but the BR felt it was perfectly balanced in H2 and H3 because they knew it was the best all-round weapon and the others were more for “training casuals” than skill-loving competitive seekers. There were also a lot more BR-start gametypes in H2 and H3 than the 1 official gametype H4 has at the moment.

I suspect you just weren’t frequenting any forums around that time.

Symmetrical starts are not necessary for an arena-shooter to function. Many are finding this out now that the precision weapon class (and only weapon class) that they use is getting a massage to more resemble the intended minor distinctions.
Are symmetrical starts maybe necessary for actual tournament play? That’s up to the tournament.
Symmetrical starts do not dictate a game to be competitive. It’s equal oppourtunity when starting the matches, and only starting the matches that must present equal potential for all teams/sides for a game to be competitive at its core.

The DMR will still have role and function within the sandbox of being very versatile across the ranges while also being able to inflict damage on the vehicles and inflict the most flinch of the spawning weapons.
It does not spam headshots (play SWAT on Ragnarok to find out that the DMR isn’t as powerful in the ranges as claimed) and the DMR is still not very effective against a BS in very short range or the automatics in short range.

… Will this make a huge difference? It’s going to make a big difference in those that like raw numbers for sure. In gameplay’s short range combat and less, yes it’s going to make a huge difference. In mid-range battles… Not so much.
The DMR and LR are still going to dominate from mid-range and on BUT the Carbine and BR will be able to compete a bit farther than before. This pretty much means the DMR and LR are making the difference at long range and there’s nearly no difference at mid.
Now where the big difference is had is in short range. Here all precisions will have a potential kill time of 1.35-1.47 (close to being within kill-trade window) but the Carbine and BR are “easier” to get those kill times than the DMR or LR. As is and will be, an LR has to get a scoped shot in to get a quick kill. The DMR will have to spam its shots and contrary to many beliefs, a spammed DMR does hit precisely as it registers hits often, but they tend to be bodyshots when spammed.

You see the beauty in this is that the precisions follow a gameplay pattern more closely to having automatics within the game.
Though there are those that dislike automatics, at least within their niched style of gameplay those players can experience both the strategic and technical skill nuances of the entire sandbox.

And of course if there are tournaments that don’t like asymmetrical starts, the best part is that the players who use the Carbine, BR and LR, well they may or may not have everything they’ve asked for BUT they’ve got their weapon tweaked a bit more to their liking for general gameplay. The “My weapon would feel better if…” has been listened too.
Conversely the BR start on small maps players can have a BR that functions the same in both regular games and in tournament games… However unlike H2 or H3, the BR will not be the best spawning weapon in the game, just the best weapon suited for the style preferred by certain player types.

> Simple question…
>
> My thing is people are complaining that this is the only weapon being used in the game.
>
> So how come nobody complained when it was a total BR fest in Halo 3?
> It makes me wonder if the reason people are complaining is because their former favorite weapon the BR is no longer the weapon of choice.

Because Halo 3 wasn’t a class based shooter where you had the option of 4 precision spawn weapons. In Halo 4, 3 of those spawn weapons are largely redundant due to the superior DMR, which has a faster kill time than the BR and Carbine even in their own range.

> So what will truly change once the DMR is nerfed and the BR moves ahead?
>
> Won’t the same complaints persist only with a different weapon? I don’t get it.
>
> I just don’t understand how the game will be balanced with the BR and DMR switching power rank positions. Can someone explain how the game will be more balanced with the BR supposedly now becoming a 4 shot weapon ?

The BR can’t physically take over the DMR’s “Power position” because it doesn’t have anywhere near the range nor the consistency the DMR has. The DMR is an incredibly versatile weapon. You do not make the most versatile weapon in the game kill the fastest.

It’s versatile because it is good at any range. The BR/Carbine suffer at long range because of their RR range and the spread, the Light Rifle suffers at close range due to its burst shot and slow kill time. The DMR does not suffer at any range, and combined with its fast kill time it is essentially the only weapon worth using.

The BR and Carbine should kill faster in their own range or they are pointless guns. Right now, they do not kill faster in their own range, which is what gives the illusion that the DMR is overpowered.

The BR becoming a 4-shot, 11 bullet kill will make it kill faster than the DMR, but it still cannot compete at range. The DMR will still be the best weapon for a map that has long range and close range lines of sight, but will not dominate in an specific range.

So it’s good at all ranges, but not the best at any range. It will beat the BR at long range and the Light rifle up close, but will be beaten in the opposite situations which is why this will make it balanced.

> > OP: i think the only thing thats changing is the Range of Fire of the DMR.
>
> Is there a specific link suggesting this?

One of the threads, i forget which one it was on. BS Angel was the one who responded to one of my posts regarding that. I’ll try and find it.

I don’t think the weapon re-balance can fix the game because there are other problems with the gameplay, namely random ordinance drops and the complete lack of vehicle play. The random ordinance drops are a crazy idea. That would be like dropping random killstreak crates during a game of COD, some with UAV, and some with Orbital VSAT’s and Stealth Choppers.

This game has gone too far from what Halo is all about: starting everyone off with the same thing and letting them fight for other weapons and powerups that have been placed on the map. I’m not saying that Halo can’t evolve, but if it is going to evolve, it needs to keep it’s core intact. I can’t see much at all of Halo’s core in Halo 4, and the majority of Halo’s population seems to have stopped playing this game because of the changes that have been made.

If you wanted to spice the game up, why not just add some new weapons and some new powerups to the maps?

> > The problem is the aim assist and bullet magnetism. The DMR already has the fastest rate of fire second only to the carbine. This allows people to spam and due to the high aim assist and bullet magnetism previously mentioned, it is very to use.
> >
> > This has been a long debated topic OP and people have already stated their suspicions about people just wanting the BR to rule. It does seem that way because that is the only weapon that is only on some people’s minds when thinking of the DMR, but the DMR really is unbalanced.
> >
> > However, almost all the other load out weapons are just as bad.
> >
> > If the carbine did not have its invisible spread then it would be a killing machine.
> >
> > If the dmr did not exist then the br would be the monster
> >
> > I am not sure about the LR. It seems somewhat harder to use than the other weapons.
>
> So again you believe the DMR to be unbalanced. But explain how the game will become balanced by nerfing it.
>
> As has already been mentioned another weapon will be the next one in line for complaints.
>
> I guess what I’m asking is, assuming the DMR gets nerfed, can you or anyone give me a real detailed explanation of how the game will truly be balanced in such a way that I won’t say, “Well weapon X will now be overpowered and the obvious weapon of choice now and the new target of complaining.”
>
> My point is that if you can’t give a rational explanation then what the heck is the purpose of kicking and screaming for a DMR nerf when all we’ll be doing is jumping from one barbecue grill to another that has the same amount of flames with the same temperature but just with a different coat of painting and architecture on the outside?
>
> Seems to me we’ll just be going around in endless circles.

I said that most of the other weapons are or would be just as bad if the dmr was nerfed, and i also said that the problem is the aim assist and bullet magnetism. Now if the rate of fire of the dmr was changed then that would greatly reduced the speed at which someone dies and there would be more focus on making every shot count as opposed to being able to shoot continuously.

> > The problem is the aim assist and bullet magnetism. The DMR already has the fastest rate of fire second only to the carbine. This allows people to spam and due to the high aim assist and bullet magnetism previously mentioned, it is very to use.
> >
> > This has been a long debated topic OP and people have already stated their suspicions about people just wanting the BR to rule. It does seem that way because that is the only weapon that is only on some people’s minds when thinking of the DMR, but the DMR really is unbalanced.
> >
> > However, almost all the other load out weapons are just as bad.
> >
> > If the carbine did not have its invisible spread then it would be a killing machine.
> >
> > If the dmr did not exist then the br would be the monster
> >
> > I am not sure about the LR. It seems somewhat harder to use than the other weapons.
>
> So again you believe the DMR to be unbalanced. But explain how the game will become balanced by nerfing it.
>
> As has already been mentioned another weapon will be the next one in line for complaints.
>
> I guess what I’m asking is, assuming the DMR gets nerfed, can you or anyone give me a real detailed explanation of how the game will truly be balanced in such a way that I won’t say, “Well weapon X will now be overpowered and the obvious weapon of choice now and the new target of complaining.”
>
> My point is that if you can’t give a rational explanation then what the heck is the purpose of kicking and screaming for a DMR nerf when all we’ll be doing is jumping from one barbecue grill to another that has the same amount of flames with the same temperature but just with a different coat of painting and architecture on the outside?
>
> Seems to me we’ll just be going around in endless circles.

I said that most of the other weapons are or would be just as bad if the dmr was nerfed, and i also said that the problem is the aim assist and bullet magnetism. Now if the rate of fire of the dmr was changed then that would greatly reduced the speed at which someone dies and there would be more focus on making every shot count as opposed to being able to shoot continuously.

PS. I did not know that you were specifically talking about the new weapon balanced update. I thought that you were talking about in general. I also do not consider the range reduction on the DMR to be a nerf. In truth nerf means making a gun useless, but my above response was to your response to my post. I am glad that the weapon balance update was explained to you.

OP:

The reason the BR wasnt called out at being a OP in Halo 3 is because Bungie decided the loadouts for each playlist and said ‘Deal with it’. There was no customisation, and the only thing comparable to the BR in terms of being a precision utility weapon in H3 was the Carbine, which of course, was never included as a starting weapon. If the BR was replaced by the Carbine in Halo 3, then it would have been a Carbine fest and nobody would have complained then, on the competitive side of the scale.

Halo 4 of course, introduced something that was always going to be difficult to balance by its very nature: Custom Loadouts.
Call it what you want, Call of Duty copying or whatever, I couldnt care less, it is what is, its here to stay so we may aswell just shut up and get used to it. Yeah I enjoyed knowing what everyone on the battlefield was going to have in Halo 3 too, I loved it, but I also appreciate certain things with the Loadout system.

I like that 343 put 4 precision weapons in Halo 4.
I like that they TRIED (at launch) to give every weapon an optimal role on a map by map basis.
It adds another level of planning and skill to the game. You cant just bash out Halo 4 and get super good with one weapon because you know it can carry you at al ranges, you have to get good with MULTIPLE weapons and depending on the map utilise it correctly.

The DMR has been the exception, and this is why I said 343 had TRIED to balance the weapons at launch.

In regards to the Weapon Update thus far, 343 are doing a very good job (one that probably should have been done pre-launch when you think about it given the changes they are proposing. Heck its almost like very little play-testing was done at all, and if it was, it was never expanded to include a multitude of skill ranges/gamers).

The DMR’s nerf:

  • Ive followed the Bulletin’s closely since 343’s revelation of the Balance Patch and their proposed nerf of reducing the Red Reticle Range (aim assist is at its strongest when your reticle is red while aiming at an enemy). IS the perfect nerf. Nerfing any more than that would damage Halo 4’s already fragile population. You have to remember there are ALOT of casuals and lesser experienced players out there who will use nothing but the DMR because its so easy to use, thus buffing all the other weapons including the AR’s to prevent close range domination by the DMR is the perfect solution. It allows players to still feel comfortable with the weapon they have over-used for months now, while giving those against its use the opportunity to truly utilise each weapon in its optimal playspace.

The BR’s Buffs:

  • Matching the Rate of Fire of the BR with the DMR while pushing it down to a 4 shot kill on the 11th bullet (very important that it was the 11th not the 12th), has given the BR its space back, the close to mdeium battles should always have tipped in favour of the BR, and yet, it has always been far too easy to waltz in with a DMR and beat the BR. No more, that occurance will come far less often, as it should of at launch, and finally, the BR can dominate at its allocated playspace.

Pro Tip: If you are still trying to cross map people on Complex after the patch with the BR, you have no right to complain about being dominated by the DMR. You have forfeited your right to complain by actively preventing yourself from improving at Halo 4 by not accepting that every weapon has its optimal range.

The Carbine’s Buffs:

  • This buff is the one I’m most excited for. Requuring one less shot to kill with absolutely NO penalty is a ridiculously generous buff and the proposed tightening of its spread to truly underline the Carbine’s PRECISION weapon potential will make this weapon absolutely deadly at Close - Medium range. In the hands of the skilled user, this weapon will be brilliant, and yes I know its not for everyone but that is merely the nature of a Loadout system.

The Light Rifle’s Buffs:

  • This for me will be the prize jewel many of us DMR haters will be looking forward to the most. The secondary fire’s increased rate of fire of the already fastest killing precision loadout weapon in the game (in case you didnt know) coupled with the increased Red Reticle Range to match the DMR’s, will be what truly dethrones DMR users on maps such as Complex / (Insert BTB Forge Map here). Heck even now, its amazing how few people understand the effectiveness its secondary fire has in team situations. Most people even now, dont realise that A SINGLE SHOT of its secondary fire onto a fully shilded enemy, will allow a teammate using a DMr or BR to finish that damaged player in just THREE SHOTS. In Team Doubles Ive been taking full advantage of just that with my teammate in Doubles Pro. All I have to do is put one zoomed shot into both the enemies, and they are now 3 shot kills for my teammate using a DMR / BR, and thats not counting any more hits I may land while zoomed in. I wish more people would understand its strengths, its disappointing not seeing this used more in War Games, but alas, Im certain it will on June 3rd, it wont take long for people to start wondering why that magicly easy 5 shot on Complex across the map isnt coming as easy to them as it was before. This my friends, will be the King of Long Range duals, and so it should be and should have been at launch. Its primary fire, well I never used to understand why it was so bad at close range until I realised the Light Rifle’s burst fire mode shoot’s ALOT slower than the BR, and its unbelieveably easy to miss single shots of a burst just by over-relying on aim assist when battling at Close Range using its primary fire. However, Im not complaining about this, I understand where its strengths are which is why I actively attempt to avoid Close Range situations with the Light Rifle.

June 3rd.
The day Halo is re-launched.
Get ready for it.
Its gunna feel new, and its gunna feel real.

> The players who used nothing but the BR felt it was perfectly balanced in H2 and H3 because they knew it was the best all-round weapon and the others were more for “training casuals” than skill-loving competitive seekers. There were also a lot more BR-start gametypes in H2 and H3 than the 1 official gametype H4 has at the moment.

I could argue that even though the BR was the best weapon of Halo 3(and one I used often), the weaker automatic weapons should be put at fault for this, since they were altogether very weak, ineffective, and had a low skill ceiling.

I will make it clear that this is not balance, and is just how it was. Halo 2 and 3 were just not designed with weapon balance in mind. Reach tried, but Bungie did not do their best job with it.