Do yall think that Halo Reach misguided 343? I say this because ever since Reach came out, the population has dropped and the community has been more divided. I’m by no means saying the latter three games are objectively bad to those that enjoyed them. I’m more of a classic fan but I really liked Halo 5. With bloom/assassinations in Reach to Loadouts in Halo 4 to Spartan Abilities in Halo 5… why did the fanbase die down?? What can bring a lot of older players back to Halo while keeping the newer players?
I’ve seen some discussions / videos highlighting that the population 343 needs to focus on are the Halo Reach generation.
This is the target demographic in regards to age, numbers, and most importantly - spending habits.
No surprise then with the fanfare they put into adding Reach to the MCC. And the first Season Pass for Infinite is ‘Remember Reach’.
They’re not going to ignore the classic fans entirely. The more the merrier. But they aren’t going to be the commercial focus of this product.
I think with the dramatic changes we’ve seen from the last few releases everyone might appreciate settling it down to something more familiar over trying to reinvent the wheel again and again.
All the rapid change has somewhat split the player base. There’s people that loved Halo 5’s changes, while others hated it, and there’s people that liked Halo 4’s changes, etc. I think it’s best if we stop and just meet eachother in the middle for the best of both worlds of changes.
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> I think with the dramatic changes we’ve seen from the last few releases everyone might appreciate settling it down to something more familiar over trying to reinvent the wheel again and again.
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> All the rapid change has somewhat split the player base. There’s people that loved Halo 5’s changes, while others hated it, and there’s people that liked Halo 4’s changes, etc. I think it’s best if we stop and just meet eachother in the middle for the best of both worlds of changes.
Yeah, like Halo Wars 2 had a nice “Middle of the ground” art style, Infinite looks like its doing the same with gameplay. But no matter what they did, there’d always be a section of the community that would end up hating it. Just a simple fact - can’t please everyone.
I think will be less innovative than the previous 3 entries, and will be the better game for it.
The way I see it, reach changed quite a lot in a way that mad the game’s competitive scene diminish, although made up for it in it’s creative tools and custom game community. The latter being why reach still ended up being popular despite less-loved gameplay. Then with halo 4 the devs doubled down on the direction reach took the franchise, which further alienated to people who were on the fence for reach. And unlike reach, halo 4 lacked many of the creative tools of it’s predecessor, so the customs scene that kept reach alive was nowhere to be seen in 4.
Halo 4’s gameplay was so disliked that they completely abandoned its direction when making halo 5. 5’s gameplay largely returned the franchise to the old formula, but also had a bunch of new bells and whistles that still kept the old fans away. It was liked better, and was definitely a success, but it still needed more halo in it for many.
Infinite seems to be taking halo 5 and stripping it back a lot, to the point that it seems closer to a halo 5 and 3 hybrid. And they are innovating on top of that middle ground it seems with new damage types, theowable objects, and more useful equipment than the halo 3 counterpart. And likely more.
Tldr Innovation isn’t always a good thing. You need to innovate in the right direction. Things like sprint and clamber aren’t popular among classic fans but with enough balance can be accepted, while attracting a much wider audience. Some small features were great, such as switching seats in vehicles in 5, while others just help raise mass market appeal like hitmarkers. And others just ruin the core game and move it too far from its original vision such as perks and loadouts. I think by starting with a classic basis like 3 and innovating in small but noticeable ways without effecting core gameplay is the route to go, and partially the route they took.
I’m a big classic halo fan myself, and I’m overall very satisfied with what we’ve seen of gameplay so far. It’s not 100% classic but classic enough to where it reminds me of old halo. That’s enough to get me interested at least.
Infinite needs player retention as a major virtue. I’m sure that most original fans will come back to try it out, but something needs too keep them.
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> Halo 4’s gameplay was so disliked that they completely abandoned its direction when making halo 5. 5’s gameplay largely returned the franchise to the old formula, but also had a bunch of new bells and whistles that still kept the old fans away.
How on Earth did H5G abandon Halo 4’s direction and return to the old formula?
On the contrary, H5G is Halo 4 on steroids: Several armor abilities have been upgraded to default spawn abilities; every player now always has thrusters and stabilizer is just a reworked jetpack. The “mobility” package was also made default by turning sprint infinite instead of removing it. The spread buffs that Halo 4 added to the zoom mechanic are not only still present but now extended to all weapons by the inclusion of ADS. Then there are things like Spartan charge, which was 343’s answer to the double-melee-glitch by just making it a default ability as well. “Remember kids, it’s not a bug, it’s a feature.”
The only step back from Halo 4 that H5G took was abandoning loadouts and killstreaks but only in Arena, which is nothing but an alibi change anyways because A) Halo 4 already had modes like these at launch and B) the main focus of H5G - Warzone - is loadout and killstreak galore.
H5G is the farthest the franchise has ever been from its roots.
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> > 2533274866536985;5:
> > Halo 4’s gameplay was so disliked that they completely abandoned its direction when making halo 5. 5’s gameplay largely returned the franchise to the old formula, but also had a bunch of new bells and whistles that still kept the old fans away.
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> How on Earth did H5G abandon Halo 4’s direction and return to the old formula?
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> On the contrary, H5G is Halo 4 on steroids: Several armor abilities have been upgraded to default spawn abilities; every player now always has thrusters and stabilizer is just a reworked jetpack. The “mobility” package was also made default by turning sprint infinite instead of removing it. The spread buffs that Halo 4 added to the zoom mechanic are not only still present but now extended to all weapons by the inclusion of ADS. Then there are things like Spartan charge, which was 343’s answer to the double-melee-glitch by just making it a default ability as well. “Remember kids, it’s not a bug, it’s a feature.”
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> The only step back from Halo 4 that H5G took was abandoning loadouts and killstreaks but only in Arena, which is nothing but an alibi change anyways because A) Halo 4 already had modes like these at launch and B) the main focus of H5G - Warzone - is loadout and killstreak galore.
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> H5G is the farthest the franchise has ever been from its roots.
Easy. Halo 5 got rid of loadouts, perks, and armor abilities, and went back to equal starts. They added new abilities but since they were abilities that everybody had they contributes to the equal starts mantra of the old formula. Players always having access to the same abilities is inherently closer to the classic formula, even if individual elements of the gameplay are more complex.
Another reason that’s tangentally related is weapon spawns. Halo 4 took weapons and powerups off of maps, instead giving us the ordinance system to spawning in power weapons. This completely changed the game and removed the importance of map control and Knowledge. Halo 5 got rid of ordinance and brought back weapon spawns on maps, this boring the gameplay more in-line with classic gameplay.
Then there was just small changes such as De-scoping and grenade pickups. Halo 4 removed these and halo 5 brought them back.
Halo 5 is closer to halo 3 in it’s core gameplay than either 4 or reach were. And yes both reach and 4 had gamemodes that played closer to halo 3, but I’m talking about the base gameplay here, not special circumstances.
And no, warzone wasn’t the main focus of halo 5. That was still arena. Warzone was an extra mode more akin to firefight or spartan ops of the previous games. It’s fine if extra modes follow different rules. We’re talking the core experience.
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> Players always having access to the same abilities is inherently closer to the classic formula, even if individual elements of the gameplay are more complex.
False. Players having one armor ability is inherently closer to the classic formula than everybody having half a dozen armor… pardon, Spartan abilities.
It doesn’t matter if they’re all the same ones for every player. It’s simple math. One is closer to zero than six.
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> Another reason that’s tangentally related is weapon spawns. Halo 4 took weapons and powerups off of maps, instead giving us the ordinance system to spawning in power weapons.
Halo 4 already had traditional modes without loadouts and without ordnance on launch day.
And H5G still has custom loadouts and spawning in power weapons in Warzone which, yes, was the main focus of the game, because the entire reward system revolved around it, as it was the part of the game that could be monetized.
If anything, Halo 4 and H5G are on the exact same level regarding equal starts. Both had it in some modes and didn’t in others. Neither is more classic than the other in this regard.
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> Then there was just small changes such as De-scoping and grenade pickups. Halo 4 removed these and halo 5 brought them back.
I’ll give you descope, even though it was made completely pointless by including ADS.
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> And yes both reach and 4 had gamemodes that played closer to halo 3, but I’m talking about the base gameplay here, not special circumstances.
So am I. The base mechanics, the moment-to-moment gameplay, the things that are consistent across all modes in the games - including campaign - are way farther away in H5G than they’ve ever been in Reach or even Halo 4.
Like, not even close.
Even if H5G were closer to classic Halo than Halo 4 with regards to equal starts (which it isn’t), it doesn’t actually factor into the gameplay aspect, because equal starts is completely irrelevant for things like campaign.
It had one or two areas in which it made some steps backwards (descope) but departed even further in basically every other regard (ADS, Spartan Abilities, infinite sprint, etc.)
Taken together it’s still a net departure.
More importantly, it’s a direct evolution of Halo 4.
All but three mechanics (clamber, ground pound, slide) are directly lifted from Halo 4 or continuations thereof: Spartan Charge is double melee turned into a gameplay mechanic, Infinisprint is the same as the mobility package, hover is just a different type of jetpack, ADS is an evolution of H4’s zoom spread buffs extended to all weapons, thruster is, well, thruster, minus the third person view, etc.
Halo 4 was never “abandoned”. It’s the entire basis of H5G’s gameplay, just pushed TO TEH MAX.
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> > 2533274866536985;8:
> > Players always having access to the same abilities is inherently closer to the classic formula, even if individual elements of the gameplay are more complex.
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> False. Players having one armor ability is inherently closer to the classic formula than everybody having half a dozen armor… pardon, Spartan abilities.
> It doesn’t matter if they’re all the same ones for every player. It’s simple math. One is closer to zero than six.
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> > Another reason that’s tangentally related is weapon spawns. Halo 4 took weapons and powerups off of maps, instead giving us the ordinance system to spawning in power weapons.
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> Halo 4 already had traditional modes without loadouts and without ordnance on launch day.
> And H5G still has custom loadouts and spawning in power weapons in Warzone which, yes, was the main focus of the game, because the entire reward system revolved around it, as it was the part of the game that could be monetized.
> If anything, Halo 4 and H5G are on the exact same level regarding equal starts. Both had it in some modes and didn’t in others. Neither is more classic than the other in this regard.
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> > Then there was just small changes such as De-scoping and grenade pickups. Halo 4 removed these and halo 5 brought them back.
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> I’ll give you descope, even though it was made completely pointless by including ADS.
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> > And yes both reach and 4 had gamemodes that played closer to halo 3, but I’m talking about the base gameplay here, not special circumstances.
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> So am I. The base mechanics, the moment-to-moment gameplay, the things that are consistent across all modes in the games - including campaign - are way farther away in H5G than they’ve ever been in Reach or even Halo 4.
> Like, not even close.
> Even if H5G were closer to classic Halo than Halo 4 with regards to equal starts (which it isn’t), it doesn’t actually factor into the gameplay aspect, because equal starts is completely irrelevant for things like campaign.
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> It had one or two areas in which it made some steps backwards (descope) but departed even further in basically every other regard (ADS, Spartan Abilities, infinite sprint, etc.)
> Taken together it’s still a net departure.
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> More importantly, it’s a direct evolution of Halo 4.
> All but three mechanics (clamber, ground pound, slide) are directly lifted from Halo 4 or continuations thereof: Spartan Charge is double melee turned into a gameplay mechanic, Infinisprint is the same as the mobility package, hover is just a different type of jetpack, ADS is an evolution of H4’s zoom spread buffs extended to all weapons, thruster is, well, thruster, minus the third person view, etc.
> Halo 4 was never “abandoned”. It’s the entire basis of H5G’s gameplay, just pushed TO TEH MAX.
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Only true if all players have the same ability. If they have different abilities then it’s a shift towards a class based shooter which pushes the game out of having equal starts. Equal starts is a key mechanic in halo and the biggest fault in reach and 4 that 5 rectifies.
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You’re right. Halo 4 had modes with tradition weapon spawns. But they weren’t the default experience. They were extra. So Im not counting that, just the defaults. Halo 5 also had classic gamemodes at launch or shortly after but I don’t count those either.
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Warzone was extra. Not the main focus. 4v4 has always been the core focus of halo, even in halo 5, and the addition of warzone didn’t change that.
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You’re right that it’s irrelevan4 for things like campaign hence why I’m not talking about campaign just arena multiplayer.
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Moment to moment gameplay of 5 is closer to 3 than 4 was by far. You’re free to disagree but imo halo 4 was so far out of left field in it’s moment to moment gameplay that it was basically only halo in name. Halo 5 felt much closer, albeit still a longshot away.
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Halo 4 is an evolution of reach. 5 is not an evolution of 4. More like a reassessment. The 2 games play so drastically different that the only thing they really share is the aesthetic. They either undid or greatly altered everything from 4 with few exceptions. You can argue that certain abilities in 5 are influenced by things from 4 but it’s still a whole entirely different experience. Innate abilities and equal starts plays completely different from armor abilities and loadouts that I consider them to be separate subgenres entirely. Halo 4 is a class based shooter, halo 5 is not. That where the core of my opinion stems from.
You are free to disagree but I’ll say it once more, with respect to core gameplay, halo 5 is much closer to halo 3 than halo 4 ever was. (and infinite seems to be even closer).
I played a lot of halo 3 all the way through ODST, to Reach, to Halo 4 and fell off then. To me Halo 5 just made me feel irritated. Not even talking about story wise. The sheer gameplay put me off so much. The movment mechanics to the look and feel, lack of customizations, Req packs and the information overload on your hud. Ive seen this in halo infinite and if can ask for just one thing not to have in halo infinite is to remove or have as an option to remove AUDIO HITMARKERS these annoy me so much and take me out of the gameplay. They sound terrible. I dont want to hear a clicking/dingging sound when my shots land a hit. Theres already so much visual info on your hud that having audio as well it just overload and unnecessary.
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> 1. Only true if all players have the same ability. If they have different abilities then it’s a shift towards a class based shooter which pushes the game out of having equal starts. Equal starts is a key mechanic in halo and the biggest fault in reach and 4 that 5 rectifies.
False. Class based or not, the biggest fault in Reach and 4 was the inclusion of armor abilities that impeded run’n’gun gameplay. H5G exacerbates that problem by exponentially increasing the number of game-breaking abilities each player has at their disposal.
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> 2. You’re right. Halo 4 had modes with tradition weapon spawns. But they weren’t the default experience. They were extra.
That’s nothing but your personal opinion. Since they were already included on launch day, they can easily been seen as the “default” experience and the Infinity gametypes as “extra”.
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> 3. Warzone was extra. Not the main focus.
Blatantly false. Everything in the game revolved around Warzone or was directly tied to it, including the reward system.
How do you unlock customization? Req Packs.
What reward did you get for logging in? Req Packs.
How was new content (weapons, announcers, etc.) distributed? Req Packs.
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> 4. You’re right that it’s irrelevan4 for things like campaign hence why I’m not talking about campaign just arena multiplayer.
Ideed. And since you’re only looking at a limited part of the game, you draw the wrong conclusions.
I’m looking at the game as a whole, including campaign and all multiplayer modes, which makes it abundantly clear that H5G’s overall gameplay is a direct evolution of Halo 4.
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> 5. Moment to moment gameplay of 5 is closer to 3 than 4 was by far. You’re free to disagree but imo halo 4 was so far out of left field in it’s moment to moment gameplay that it was basically only halo in name. Halo 5 felt much closer, albeit still a longshot away.
No, it’s not. Your feelings in that regard are irrelevant, the fact remains that H5G still has all but one of the departures from classic gameplay that 4 had (with the sole exception being flinch) and then some.
It’s not even close.
Halo 3__________________Reach__________Halo 4__________H5G
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> 5. Halo 4 is an evolution of reach. 5 is not an evolution of 4. More like a reassessment.
It’s both. H5G is to Halo 4 what Halo 4 was to Reach.
Halo 4 also had some mechanics “reassessed”, as you call it, with sprint being taken from an armor ability to a Spartan abilities, quicker bloom reset during scope being changed into spread buffs while scoped, etc.
H5G does the exact same thing, except for even more of the armor abilities/packages: Thruster, Jetpack, Mobility, Resupply, etc. Spread buffs on scopes were extended to spread buffs on all weapons (and stupidly enough even melee weapons) by the inclusion of ADS, and so forth.
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> The 2 games play so drastically different that the only thing they really share is the aesthetic.
The gameplay is so obviously similar that you can even make a custom gametype in Halo 4 where all players spawn with thrusters, the mobility package and no ordnance and it will play almost identical to H5G. (Save the new mechanics that are unique to that game, i.e. clamber, ground pound and slide, which don’t play like classic anyways. If anything, this gametype will play more classic than H5G.) You don’t even need to add Spartan charge, because Halo 4 already has double-melee.
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> They either undid or greatly altered everything from 4 with few exceptions.
They undid exactly one thing (flinch) and everything they “altered”, they did so by pushing it even further than before: Spread buffs on all guns instead of just precision weapons. Six abilities simultaneously instead of just one. Sprint being infinite all the time. Ordnance is now also personalized instead of random, just like the loadouts.
It’s asinine to look at these changes that are direct continuations of Halo 4 and then claim that the game allegedly went back towards classic gameplay.
It’s not even funny if meant as a joke, but even more sad if actually meant it in earnest.
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> Innate abilities and equal starts plays completely different from armor abilities and loadouts that I consider them to be separate subgenres entirely.
Absolutely correct but also completely irrelevant to this discussion because both games had modes with and without equal starts and loadouts on launch day, which only affect the multiplayer part of the game in the first place. The actual gameplay is what is being discussed, the thing that is consistent across the entire game, including campain, not specific spawn settings in specific modes.
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> Halo 4 is a class based shooter, halo 5 is not. That where the core of my opinion stems from.
I know. And as I already said, this is precisely why your conclusion is false.
A) Both are both. Both games have class-based modes and both games have equal start modes. Neither game is exclusively one or the other, so the first sentence is already flatout wrong.
B) Loadouts and classes only affect half of the game, with you completely ignoring the campaign aspect, so your opinion is additionally based on a limited point of view.
C) Loadouts and classes are not the sole defininig feature of a game. If one were to introduce a gametype with loadouts into Halo 3 where players could choose to spawn with BR or Carbine, it would still play significantly closer to Vanilla Halo 3 than anything H5G-related, because it would still lack any and all of the Spartan abilities, ADS, weapon spread, movement, etc.
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> You are free to disagree but I’ll say it once more, with respect to core gameplay, halo 5 is much closer to halo 3 than halo 4 ever was. (and infinite seems to be even closer).
You can say it however often you want, but repeating it still won’t make it true. Your point of view is flawed by looking only at specific modes instead of the entire game. If you actually were looking at the overall gameplay instead of just spawn settings, you would realise that H5G is a direct continuation of everything that Halo 4 set in place, taking it further away from classic than the franchise has ever been.
Infinite seems to be somewhat more classic than H5G, but not by much, as most abilities still return: Sprint, ADS, Clamber, Thruster and Slide now apparently being combined into one mechanic, etc. And there might be even more abilities waiting in the dark that we haven’t seen yet. It’s definitely not even as close to classic Halo as Reach was (which already was a huge departure) and only time will tell if it’s closer or farther than Halo 4.
we will have to wait to find out for sure, but I don’t think that infinite will feel MORE like 3 than the most recent games. sure they are going back to halos roots in some regards, but from what I have seen of MP its still definitely very fast paced and reminds me more of H5 than H3
The ‘essence’ of H3 in regards to equipment / sandbox with the movement speed and mobility of H5, just toned down for balancing. Sprint speed is either reduced significantly or just simply an animation to allow for the slide mechanic and you can almost immediately shoot out of sprint. No thrusters, and clamber opportunities will likely be there just to add verticality to maps.
If they find the sweet spot middle ground of these 2 games, we’re in for a treat with Infinite.
TBH I’d imagine it’s a full mix. I think everyone sees from the game what we’d like to see most. I was A BIG fan of 4’s customization. I never worried about drops because I played swat and infection. Spartan Ops was a blast but I did miss FF. 3 Was the ending of an Era, but the turning of a page with forge that reach expanded and 5 IN A WAY*** Perfected.
Warzone want bad, warzone FF was cool, BUT my hope (I’ve posted this elsewhere) is the amalgamation of FF will go in the direction like the campaign. Open World with a few map options and random story backgrounds. Objectives with scaling difficulty.
If you want my opinion for arena you’d be better to test the prior comments. I’m a social player who enjoys SUMO, Griffball, RiftBall, and infection. Then relaxing to dinner FF.
The only other thing I want is AI in forge. Not just Spartan bots either, so we can make our own FF maps