Foreword
I was wondering why to play as Forge in 1v1s. I started to play with Forge few months ago. Then I switched to Anders and now I am using Cutter. Now I do not know what are the benefits for playing as Forge.
Forge specials
Cyclops :
- the worst unit in the game
- only good when turtling (to save supplies instead of using Heal & Repair leader power)
Carpet Bomb :
- the worst UNSC leader weapon (in some situations better than Cryo Bomb)
- cannot do any damage to air units
- good against weak ground units (but MAC Blast is even better)
Heavy Supply Pads :
- gives good economy
- makes him inflexible
Grizzly Super Unit :
- worse version of power turret scorpion
- the worst super unit in the game
Compared to Cutter
Cutter is more flexible leader. He can do the same build/tricks as Forge, but has many more options available.
Cutter gets almost the same economy as does Forge (assuming 7 buildings are build to single base). Also taking instant expansion is possible with Cutter unlike with Forge.
Unlike Forge, Cutter can go reactor second to get 3 x gunner hogs. Or reactor third to get 4 or 5 gunner hogs. The options are more limited with Forge.
Elephant offers even more possibilities on maps like Blood Gulch, Blood River, Chasms and Barrens.
- MAC Cannon > Carpet Bomb
- Elephant > Cyclop
- ODST > Grizzly
Conclusion
I feel that Cutter can do the same as Forge, if he wants. In early game Cutter has more options compared to Forge, but can do also the same economy. In middle game Cutter has better leader power + better economy if barracs is needed for infantry. In late game Cutter has the best super unit - ODST - to help him.
People do not know when to upgrade supplies and for forge there is no worry.
Instant heavy supply pads is really the only thing that gives Forge an advantage over Cutter or Anders. Forge has a clear advantage vs Cutter on Release and Tundra because of them. I also would much rather play as Forge vs any covenant leader on these two maps (and possibly some of the other maps), rather than using Cutter. It’s hard to maintain constant hog production and build heavy pads as Forge vs UNSC, but since you don’t need to keep up with hogs against covie, he’s definitely better than Cutter and may be better than Anders vs covie on maps without hooks.
From my experience as Forge, he is the least flexible and can’t get away with a lot of those early game tactics that Anders & Cutter can get away with (i.e Mac Depot or Stun+jack). I use my carpet bomb as much as I can to quickly kill an expansion or even a well-placed carpet bomb can end the game right then and there. I don’t like expanding against UNSC except on barrens or pirth. I usually just deny their expos and try to keep them on one base the entire game.
I like Forge because he can go turret-heavy and still get tech 2 units out reasonably fast (great against covy), and he becomes really flexible from mid to late game. I can also pull off going really quick tanks instead of hogs (depot 6th) and deny an expo while having the tank lead. Sometimes I take the expo that they cleared for myself if I feel safe enough.
My Forge isn’t too solid as I tend to wing it most games. I have days where I get some good wins and other days where I go on a complete losing streak lol.
> Forge has a clear advantage vs Cutter on Release and Tundra because of them.
Please, give a short example build/game description for Forge vs Cutter on Release. I just cannot imagine how Forge has an clear advantage on this battle.
> I also would much rather play as Forge vs any covenant leader on these two maps (and possibly some of the other maps), rather than using Cutter. It’s hard to maintain constant hog production and build heavy pads as Forge vs UNSC, but since you don’t need to keep up with hogs against covie, he’s definitely better than Cutter and may be better than Anders vs covie on maps without hooks.
Is this because he can do something without upgrading to fortress? Or why? If Forge goes to fortress then he has only about 200 resources more than Cutter with reactor third build. Is that so huge difference?
> I can also pull off going really quick tanks instead of hogs (depot 6th) and deny an expo while having the tank lead.
What is your build order for this? O.o
> > I can also pull off going really quick tanks instead of hogs (depot 6th) and deny an expo while having the tank lead.
>
> What is your build order for this? O.o
I queue a hog then go Supply Pad x3 > Reactor x2 > Fortress > VD > Supply Pad. I also build a turret next to my VD to keep hogs away. I usually only do this on Tundra.
Cutter can go : hog sp sp r hsp hsp sp hsp r vd sp hsp
hsp = Supply Pad to Heavy Supply Pad
With that build he gets the first scorpion out at the same time as Forge. He has 200-300 supplies less than Forge at 3:30 mark (when the Forge build is complete).
Yes and it would also depend on the amount of crates gathered. Going gunner hogs is the norm in UNSC mirrors which is why the quick tank build is useful especially if they make more than 3-4 hogs. Sometimes you can catch Cutter’s or Forge’s depot with your first tank. Won’t work against Anders as she’ll have 1 or 2 gremlins popped by then.
I assumed that on Tundra Cutter can collect at least 5 x crates before 3:30 mark. It takes about 25 second from 1 hog to collect 1 x crate (90 supplies).
0:30 : 90 collected
1:00 : 180 collected (2 hogs)
1:30 : 180 collected (2 hogs)
total : 450
I usually build only 1 hog on Tundra. 2 is enough to collect crates. 1 x turret keeps those annoying gunner hogs away with ease.
> I assumed that on Tundra Cutter can collect at least 5 x crates before 3:30 mark. It takes about 25 second from 1 hog to collect 1 x crate (90 supplies).
>
> 0:30 : 90 collected
> 1:00 : 180 collected (2 hogs)
> 1:30 : 180 collected (2 hogs)
> -----------------------------
> total : 450
>
> I usually build only 1 hog on Tundra. 2 is enough to collect crates. 1 x turret keeps those annoying gunner hogs away with ease.
Against Forge? If you don’t make hogs, you are forced into making 2 turrets eventually (500), compared to the 550 they are spending for two additional hogs and the gunner upgrade. Those 50 resources is easily made up from crates Forge can collect with his extra hogs and the crates gathered after killing the rebel base. Also, if Cutter doesn’t go hogs, Forge doesn’t need to either. That means he could even go reactors 5th and 6th, and get a huge economical lead over Cutter.
> > I usually build only 1 hog on Tundra. 2 is enough to collect crates. 1 x turret keeps those annoying gunner hogs away with ease.
>
> Against Forge?
I meant that last comment against Anders. Forges rarely - at least against me - do hogs on Tundra more than 1-2 (+ one given at start).
> Also, if Cutter doesn’t go hogs, Forge doesn’t need to either. That means he could even go reactors 5th and 6th, and get a huge economical lead over Cutter.
Once again, you are right. Forge (going reactor 5th and 6th) gets about 400 resources more at 3:30 than Cutter can get. At that point both have 4 x heavy supply pad, 2 x reactor and 1 x vehicle depot.
With 1005 supplies per minute 400 supplies it means about 24 second lead.
Still, I would prefer Cutter on this build also. Forge has no advantage attacking, since despite he has more supplies the Cutter is equal in tank numbers.
Forge = best vs. BC/Arby, good vs. PoR, bad vs. Anders
That’s how I see it. HSPs make rushing/harassing Forge a little harder for Covy imo.
> Forge = best vs. BC/Arby, good vs. PoR, bad vs. Anders
>
> That’s how I see it. HSPs make rushing/harassing Forge a little harder for Covy imo.
My point is that Cutter can - if he wants - do (almost) the same as Forge. That makes Forge an inferior leader choice.
I believe elephant + turrets (Cutter has more supplies to build turrets than Forge, if he does not upgrade upgrade all supply pads immediately) is better against rushing than Forge’s extra supplies. And if not, Cutter can do what Forge can do.
Forge is better vs covy cuz he can make flamethrowers for defense and his heavies allow him to transition into mech a lot easier than other UNSC leaders but he’s at a slight disadvantage vs anders. IMO forge is the easiest UNSC to play cuz you get free wins vs covy and only take a small disadvantage vs anders
> Forge is better vs covy cuz he can make flamethrowers for defense and his heavies allow him to transition into mech a lot easier than other UNSC leaders but he’s at a slight disadvantage vs anders.
Please, give an example scenario about this? I think I can find a Cutter build/strategy, which is almost the same.
> IMO forge is the easiest UNSC to play cuz you get free wins vs covy and only take a small disadvantage vs anders
For me Forge was way easier to play than Anders or Cutter. No need to think when to get gunner or upgrade pads. Also no managing separately of gremlins.
I think I switched from Forge to Cutter, because I got raped against Anders on hog wars all the time. I do not know if this is due Forge gets gunner slower or because I suck so badly. O.o
> > Forge is better vs covy cuz he can make flamethrowers for defense and his heavies allow him to transition into mech a lot easier than other UNSC leaders but he’s at a slight disadvantage vs anders.
>
> Please, give an example scenario about this? I think I can find a Cutter build/strategy, which is almost the same.
>
>
>
> > IMO forge is the easiest UNSC to play cuz you get free wins vs covy and only take a small disadvantage vs anders
>
> For me Forge was way easier to play than Anders or Cutter. No need to think when to get gunner or upgrade pads. Also no managing separately of gremlins.
>
> I think I switched from Forge to Cutter, because I got raped against Anders on hog wars all the time. I do not know if this is due Forge gets gunner slower or because I suck so badly. O.o
Forge is just better on Release and Tundra in general because of the heavies. The resource difference is significant enough to the point where Forge can safely defend an expansion with his first couple tanks even if Cutter doesn’t take one. It’s not an auto-win for Forge by any means, but he definitely is favored to win.
Against covie, any decent Forge shouldn’t lose to rushes. He can still go hogs to stop a standard brute rush, can afford Fortress sooner while still having an amazing economy, and has extra money for turrets (something Anders and Cutter can’t really afford). The only problem Forge really has vs covie is that it’s a little more expensive to go gauss and continue to pay for heavy supply pads on each expansion. He is more limited early game on hook maps, but that’s only really a big disadvantage vs UNSC.
I know the statistics show that you may be able to upgrade x amount of pads in a certain amount of time, but in a real game, variables are constantly changing, and you are forced to spend your money on other units/buildings. If you watch some of my videos vs covie, there are a lot of games where I still have 1 or 2 pads unupgraded (as Anders) going into the mid-game after I’ve already started producing mainline units. Those extra few hundred resources Forge makes in the early stages of the game allow him to spend money on defenses, while establishing a good economy, so he won’t be put into this bad position mid-game.
Yes, real games are different than statistics. That is why I:
- Check which build/strategy is theoretically “best” and “possible”
- Try the build/strategy against A.I. (just to learn how to manage hogs etc)
- Try the build/strategy in real game against some of the people on my friend list
To be honest, I have not tried these “mimic Forge with Cutter” builds against real players yet. I hope I MarcoStyle NL to appear online tonight. He promised to show me how I suck. O.o
P.S. After steps 1-2 I am amazed how close Cutter can come to Forge in builds. Maybe step 3 makes this complete non-sense.
> Yes, real games are different than statistics. That is why I:
>
> 1. Check which build/strategy is theoretically “best” and “possible”
> 2. Try the build/strategy against A.I. (just to learn how to manage hogs etc)
> 3. Try the build/strategy in real game against some of the people on my friend list
>
> To be honest, I have not tried these “mimic Forge with Cutter” builds against real players yet. I hope I MarcoStyle NL to appear online tonight. He promised to show me how I suck. O.o
>
> P.S. After steps 1-2 I am amazed how close Cutter can come to Forge in builds. Maybe step 3 makes this complete non-sense.
All in all I’d agree that Cutter is the better choice for 1v1, but vs. BC/Arby I think Forge’s the best on most maps.
Here is a real game between me and I MarcoStyle NL to test VD 6th build in Forge vs Cutter on Tundra.
http://www.halowars.com/stats/StatsGame.aspx?Id=12909361-7140-0520-7630-000000000000
We got the first scorpion out at the same time. We got the expansion up and running at the same time. He went reactor 3rd to his expansion, I went reactor 1st in mine.
I defended easily his first attack with my scorpions (just when I was expanding). After that I defended easily his other attacks as well.
He is way better player than me. He took the Mega Turret and used that pretty well. I tried to make couple of cobras, but after initial success failed to kill em to his PT tanks. My PT was delayed since he used Mega Turret to take out my VD seconds before PT was researched.
He collected about 200 supplies more with his 2 hogs than I did with my 2. Still… it was pretty easy to collect enough - as I expected - to keep building supply pads and upgrading those immediately.
P.S. I know I MarcoStyle NL is not Forge player (he played Anders). Still, he has played a way more games with Forge than I have with Cutter.