Why the additions to Halo 4 wont destroy competitive play.

> First off I want to ask that you read my thread in it’s entirety before you post. If it seems like I’m parsing an aspect of the game you do not like, that is most likely not the case, and the point will become relevant in dew time. With that said. . .

I think a lot of people misunderstand ‘JUST’ what was wrong with Halo: Reach. It wasn’t Armor Abilities, not Armor Abilities on a conceptual level that is. What I mean is, had the game-play stayed like Halo: 2 or 3 and they added Armor Abilities to that sandbox with no changing the game-play, I honestly don’t believe it would have ruined the game, or even been a problem.

So what went wrong?

To understand that we must understand what Halo *is.*Now don’t get me wrong Halo is a lot of things to a lot of people. A fascinating universe with lots of untold story, Custom Games, Firefight, Forge, etc. But for the sake of this discussions, I’m talking about the “3 Pillars of Halo Gameplay.” Movement, Weapon Play, and Maps.

Movement: Speed, Strafe, and Jumping.

Weapon Play: Rate of Fire, Feel of the Gun, Usability of the Gun shown as Difficulty=Power= Rewording Gameplay, Power, Balance, Melee, Grenades, Health, and shields.

Maps: Size, Shape, Ease of Control, Difficulty of Control, Weapon Spawns as opposed to Starting Spawns, Weapon Placement ( do you think it’s a mistake the BR is by that heavily traveled corner on The Pit… . . No, no it’s not.) And general map flow.

Now in order to make a good (subjective I know) Halo Game these core aspects MUST be in place, these are the answer to, What IS Halo? It is a fundamentally well balanced core, that allows for A LOT of adaptation and add on with out destroying that fundamental Halo feel.

So what went wrong? How can Halo 4 have similar game-play mechanics to Halo: Reach and not fall into the same trappings?

The first problem with Halo: Reach starts with the Spartan player model. A 6 foot tall Spartan III, in order to make this illusion work, maps had to be made a bit bigger, jumps decreased, movement speed slowed. Jumps that could have been accomplished easily in Halos old became something of the past. And in my own experience I’ve noticed that many people don’t jump around like they did in Halo 2 and 3.

Now yes, movement and jumps were penalized because of the addition of Sprint and Jet-pack. Again, I must state Armor Abilities at a fundamental level are not bad, HOWEVER in Halo: Reach they were used to supplement game-play for a lack-there-of and were introduced as a core game-play mechanic, instead of doing what they should have done and used them to supplement existing mechanics, IE equipment in Halo 3, or even Custom Power Ups.

This loss of movement speed, also hurt gun-play. Gun-play in the other Halo’s had a rhythm to it, a “1,2,3 ,1,2,3 ,1,2,3, 1,2,3” back and forth, you felt it in the firing of the BR as you swayed back and forth dancing with your opponent. Halo 2 and 3’s gun-play and movement was like a fine dance. Two players of equal footing, and skill, left alone is a sight to see, back and forth S weaving, as the sound of three round burst fly though the air. The movement was just right and timed with the pull of the trigger, in a good strafe it was less about adjusting your aim, and more about adjusting your body. Syncing up with your opponent in a way that allowed you to place just one more shot on them before they got one on you. Even the Carbine had this. In Halo: Reach however, it’s more like two virgins trying to get ‘it on’ for the first time. Slow, or fast, but clumsy, unrefined, lacking in a certain Je ne sais quoi, a certain refined sophistication. Gun-play between Halo: Reach and Halo: 1,2 and 3, is like the difference between a caveman and an educated scholar. Halo Reach as I said is more clumsy, but this goes past the simply utility weapon and how it fires. The ’Dance’ like movement just doesn’t exist in Reach. Everything is out of balance, and barbaric. Grenades are destructive Gods, and destroy map flow. Double Melee ruins CQC, in which a delay like the other games would cause a player to rethink an attempt at Sprint CQC. Now you just instantly mash the melee button twice and it’s a kill. Bloom ensured any true rhythmic rate of fire is gone, with adding in rate of fire, and bloom randomness.

Maps: Halo: Reach is comprised of mostly squad (5-6) player maps, with very few of what could be called “Arena” type maps, and even less that are comprised of single level play spaces. No, most of Reach’s Maps are labyrinth nightmares, with cut lines of sight, jolting verticality that demands the use of the Jet-pack. Lots of ins and outs, that make locking down a lot of the maps harder than in any other Halo Game, hence why you see a lot of the MLG maps are Forge Worlds, and the most played maps are maps like Asylum ( I noticed this a lot more after the Halo CEA maps were added, the older maps, even with there complicated nature, are still easier to lock down because that was a core part of their design. But another flaw to this is map flow.)

Imagine The Pit if you will. ( Or you could just look at this pic
) Now The Pit is a good example of map flow. (and no I’m not saying all Halo Maps need to be symmetrical.)

In the center you have Long Hall with Rockets, Had Green Hall with Camo, Under Training’s Bridge was Over Shield. On each side down long Hall you have Shotguns at each end, and on the exact other side you have, Snip-tower and it’s Snipers. Finally over Over-shield was Sword. The map was large enough to have long line of sights, but small enough that encounters happened often, complex enough that the Sword and Shotgun, if used properly could be effective. At the Start of every 4v4 match the goal for any team was to acquire all the power weapons and power ups, thus having a prominent advantage. Map flow at the start was predictable, but gave this tug of war game play, and even with the power weapons, someone with a good BR could very easily dominate on the map. Grenades didn’t destroy people going down a hall way, it merely warned them impending danger, sure it could get a bit cluster-lucky, but that’s going to happen on any map, in any game.

[Continued in next post]

Now the problem with Reach is none of the maps have any kind of Flow, they are simply play spaces with weapons sprinkled about. Part if this is due, in large to the miss guided mind set that maps need to be edited for Armor Abilities. Again Armor Abilities should have never been made into a fundamental aspect of Halo: Reach. If implemented right, they would have been nothing more than reusable Equipment but it wasn’t. It saturated every aspect of Halo: Reach becoming a core aspect, on which most the maps were built around. This destroyed any since of Flow, power weapons were few and far, and the choice between rushing rockets and rushing camo was stripped away when power ups were taken out of the core and added as a default ability. This ruined flow and urgency.

And now quite possibly the most damming thing to Reach is Health and shields. Not only does this break down game-play on an encounter level, but it breaks down map flow.

On an encounter level; Health damage doesn’t always heal to full, it stays with in 3 bars, as we all know, if you take health damage your odds of surviving your next encounter with an equally skilled opponent drop. This had been one of what I believe to be the killing forces behind FFA.(FFA for me is simply unplayable in Reach, something that is sad because it was my favorite in Halo’s of old.)

On a game flow level; once a player becomes wounded, they are forced to make the choice of holding the map, in which they could not only lose the position, but lose the life. Or risk the position, and the life to get a health pack. A forced risk that I find vary unnecessary. If health recharged like elites health, then show the health bar, give us some kind of notification of close to death other than flashing red. Health was in Halo 2 and 3, just hidden because it recharged.

Now Why Halo: Reach doesn’t work for MLG. It has nothing to do with AA’s, load outs, or even how different Halo: Reach casual is from Halo: Reach competitive. They did a lot of the same thing to Halo: 3, gutting equipment, most weapons, etc. The reason Halo: Reach is bad is becauseit’s boring to watch. The maps ALL LOOK THE SAME, the sound of the DMR is like thumping a tin can over and over and over again, it’s grating. Kill times are slower, with the way health is game-play is a lot more “safer” map flow just doesn’t work. Multilevel maps like Countdown should not be in MLG. It all goes back to the loss of Arena style maps and Game-play.

Now after all of this what is the point? We know why Halo: Reach is bad, and 343 seems to be making the same mistakes Bungie did. How do I know they wont do the exact same things?
Well simply put I don’t. HOWEVER there are clues, all one simply needs to do is look.
The fallowing is speculation, but backed with decent enough evidence.

Lets start with this.

Take a good hard look at the movement, a quick S like strafe, where they build speed when the move side to side. Moving his body instead of the reticule, boom, boom , you can just feel the flow and movement between firing and strafing. Boom Right, Boom Left. That is combat flow, THAT is what Reach is missing. That is the fundamental game-play element that is Halo. If I had to quantify it, that would be the dance. It is why I’m not worried about everything else, sure a lot if it is annoying, but the core seems to be intact. Map flow looks great as well,

War house

And

Wraparound.

They booth look like small to medium arena type maps, with long lines of sight, but tight narrow corridors, very reminiscent of the best Halo 2 and 3 maps. In fact I’m 100% sure these will be competitive MLG maps. (Center Mech is gonna make an sick call out.)

Now, this is with the mindset that 343 does not design anything or everything around AA’s in fact, I’m guessing they haven’t, and I’m thinking AA’s wont quite work like we think they do.

Halo is an ever evolving beast. I don’t believe giving players more choice is going to hurt the game. More-so once you realize that there are still game type specific weapon matches, form everything we have looked at we have seen a game type called “Team BR’s” (A true classic). Why bother having anything other than TEAM SLAYER? Just force everyone to use a BR for the pitchers, and the Medea demos? Most likely because it will be much like Halo 3 with Ranked and Social play lists, with TS, FFA, TO, BTB, TD the core 5 play-list that have always been in Halo. Who cares if social is a bit unbalanced? Or if BTB is a bit unbalanced, that’s kind of the fun of it. And the reason social exists, to play the game in an atmosphere that winning isn’t everything,and cool random things happen. Because if winning was, and you believed that, you’d play Ranked.

For my thoughts on the other aspects take a look at my 10 reason Halo 4 will Kick A$$ and my http://halo.xbox.com/Forums/yaf_postsm800115_10-Reasons-why-Halo-4-MIGHT-suck.aspx#post800115

(Reserved for other comments I might have on the issue.)

That was an eye-opener. Thank you.

Man, it’s sure nice to see people who have some logic and understand that Halo 4 won’t be as terrible as a lot of people claim it to be. Nice read!

This doesn’t really address my fear. I’m waiting for a podcast and trailers to get real impressions. Also, I doubt a bad multiplayer is going to stop me from buying this game. I still will buy it for campaign no matter what.

> That was an eye-opener. Thank you.

Thank you, this all kind of came to me when I was Playing Halo 1-Reach again with some buddies, and the “problem” just kind of clicked. Then I looked at thisAnd like I pointed out, the movement, you just can’t do that in Reach.

Yea the movement speed and jump height in reach is bad but I think they did it because you are a spartan 3. Also I don’t see why you would need sprint with a halo 2 like movement speed but I can deal with it as long as Master Chief moves like he always has.

It weren’t the armor abilities that went wrong, but the fact that you could spawn with them. The whole concept would’ve done well as pick ups had some of the worse abilities been thrown out or changed. As I can see that armor abilities are returning in loadouts, I can only expect similar results.

So no, I don’t think the basic elements weren’t the only things that went wrong with Reach, everything went wrong with that game. As Halo 4 returns with armor abilities still in loadouts, I can only expect similar results on that front.

> This doesn’t really address my fear. I’m waiting for a podcast and trailers to get real impressions. Also, I doubt a bad multiplayer is going to stop me from buying this game. I still will buy it for campaign no matter what.

I think some aspects will be more annoying than others, random, but “predictable” weapon spawns for instance. Ultimately, however if the 3 core aspects I listed off are in place, other things can be tweaked at a latter date, based on feed back. Its a good show of faith to see what they did for Halo Reach, in attempting to appease the community. My only true fear is they try to make everyone happy and make no one happy.

Also Awesome Thread

The AA’s won’t destroy competitive play because there will be multiple playlists without them–thus making those playlists competitive. What shall they call them… ranked?

edit: just read your entire post. Still don’t fully agree though.

Very nice post, I agree with your points, in any case as you said should they build the maps right we could have AAs that actually enhance the gameplay experience rather than hinder it. My concern is this weapon drop thing I keep hearing about and how the timing is sort of random but I guess we’ll just have to wait and see.

> It weren’t the armor abilities that went wrong, but the fact that you could spawn with them. The whole concept would’ve done well as pick ups had some of the worse abilities been thrown out or changed. As I can see that armor abilities are returning in loadouts, I can only expect similar results.
>
> So no, I don’t think the basic elements weren’t the only things that went wrong with Reach, everything went wrong with that game. As Halo 4 returns with armor abilities still in loadouts, I can only expect similar results on that front.

Yeah, basically this.

> Yea the movement speed and jump height in reach is bad but I think they did it because you are a spartan 3. Also I don’t see why you would need sprint with a halo 2 like movement speed but I can deal with it as long as Master Chief moves like he always has.

Nothing wrong with having both. Better to be able to take it out in, than not be able to add it, regardless of what people might think.

I think it would feel much like an Elite with Sprint, since the Elite in Reach feel, kinda Halo-ish.

Your points make complete and utter sense. I do however feel that with the implementation of ‘passive sprint’, getting a classic Halo feel to it will be difficult. I really do not have a problem with the other new things being brought game except for the instant spawning, as I feel that the game might try to force too much action on to you in a single sitting, also, it will hurt MLG players quite a bit because as far as I’m concerned it’s not ‘competitive’.

With regards to map movement, The Pit was/is an amazing map, I played the Reach remake and thoroughly enjoyed it. I reckon I didn’t enjoy it as much as Halo 3’s because I had worn tiresome of that map through all my Halo 3 playtime, and the forgeworld maps are extremely dull, kind of killing any ‘atmosphere’ to a map.

Movement has been a vital part to all the Halo’s, but I feel that strafing was not as efficient as it should’ve been in Reach. I really would like to see your ‘dancing’ reinnovated and revitalized into Halo 4. I mean, in Reach the Elites in campaign are strafing demons, why couldn’t we be the same?

The random weapon spawns is not a bad idea in that it promotes more of a ‘power struggle’ than other Halo games in that it will probably have an indication of when each new weapon is ‘flown’ in and everyone will rush for that weapon, so to me it’s not such a bad idea.

Anyway, was a good read and thanks for your thread dude!

> > It weren’t the armor abilities that went wrong, but the fact that you could spawn with them. The whole concept would’ve done well as pick ups had some of the worse abilities been thrown out or changed. As I can see that armor abilities are returning in loadouts, I can only expect similar results.
> >
> > So no, I don’t think the basic elements weren’t the only things that went wrong with Reach, everything went wrong with that game. As Halo 4 returns with armor abilities still in loadouts, I can only expect similar results on that front.
>
> Yeah, basically this.

Yeah, basically that.

I love Armor Abilities but I think they need some tweaking. Maybe a meter to how much you can use in the game (or per life.) That way you would have to sparingly use Sprint or the Drop Shield.
Halo: Reach’s maps were a bit boring to just look at and honestly I do get bored with Reach pretty fast (though I have been getting bored with all games right now so can’t blame it on Reach.)
I think that the fact that players will have to work to get armor abilities is great. A good MLG player would know which is the best Armor Ability to use and would know how to use it. The same is going to be with the DMR and BR. To have them both in Halo 4 is going to bring about some interesting gameplay. I can’t wait to see how players will take it. Some players may end up going full DMR or full BR.
Halo 4 is a game being made by a completely different company with different people. When people say Halo 4 is going to suck due to Sprint, Armor Abilities, etc, they’re basing their judgement off of what a separate group of people did at a different company (Bungie.)

> > It weren’t the armor abilities that went wrong, but the fact that you could spawn with them. The whole concept would’ve done well as pick ups had some of the worse abilities been thrown out or changed. As I can see that armor abilities are returning in loadouts, I can only expect similar results.
> >
> > So no, I don’t think the basic elements weren’t the only things that went wrong with Reach, everything went wrong with that game. As Halo 4 returns with armor abilities still in loadouts, I can only expect similar results on that front.
>
> Yeah, basically this.

I don’t believe load-outs to be fundamentally damming to the game, IF balanced right.

Why is Sprint annoying in Reach? Simple because it takes 5 shots to kill someone, Bloom adds randomness to the shot. With the Hit-scan 4 shot BR, I don’t think this will be as much of an issue. Kill times are faster, because not only does the weapon kill faster, but the player seems to be able to move faster at a native speed. If a Melee delay like in other Halo Games is added ( time between two melees) then sprint melee becomes suicide.

Jet-pack: I’m not convinced it will work the same as it did in Reach. The reason I say this is because, when watching the Vidoc I noticed a Spartan jumping, like he’d just moved out of a man-cannon with no man-canon to be seen. Canonically, the T-Pack ( the Halo Reach jet-pack.) Could not possibly lift a Spartan in atmosphere, it couldn’t lift a normal human, that’s just not how it works. However as a jump boost, not so bad of an idea. (and possible with in the physics added lift in a jump, but not flight.)

Forerunner Vinson: I believe will be more of a Tac-Com form Gears of War. (Also should be called VISOR 2.0 since similar tec already exists.)

Camo is the only ability that I truly believe a detriment to Halo, simply because its a power ability, and its always been a game change in Halo.

In Reach they were unbalanced because Bungie didn’t try to balance them.

> I love Armor Abilities but I think they need some tweaking. Maybe a meter to how much you can use in the game (or per life.) That way you would have to sparingly use Sprint or the Drop Shield.
> Halo: Reach’s maps were a bit boring to just look at and honestly I do get bored with Reach pretty fast (though I have been getting bored with all games right now so can’t blame it on Reach.)
> I think that the fact that players will have to work to get armor abilities is great. A good MLG player would know which is the best Armor Ability to use and would know how to use it. The same is going to be with the DMR and BR. To have them both in Halo 4 is going to bring about some interesting gameplay. I can’t wait to see how players will take it. Some players may end up going full DMR or full BR.
> Halo 4 is a game being made by a completely different company with different people. When people say Halo 4 is going to suck due to Sprint, Armor Abilities, etc, they’re basing their judgement off of what a separate group of people did at a different company (Bungie.)

I think a lot can be feared from the fact that its, built on a heavenly modified version of reach.