Why should 343i go backwards with Multiplayer

Games Halo 5: Guardians
51

Halo 4 brought in many features, such as Personal Ordnance and a big loadout feature, that were supposed to help new players. Instead, they drove most new players and old players away from the game as it ended up being a complicated mess that didn’t attract either side. Instead of helping them, they frustrated them, causing players to more than likely not return to the game.

343’s idea to dumb down players doesn’t work. If they wanted to solve the problem of players not UNDERSTANDING what to do in this game, they need to make LEARNING the game easier. This can be accomplished with Training modes, tutorials, AI controlled opponents, and so on, in-game to explain why doing things a certain way is important.

Anatomy and Physiology is a hard course, but they don’t dumb down the content in response to low test scores. Instead, they teach in different ways to make the content understandable, such as culture references (Red Hot Chili Peppers’ Blood, Sugar, -Yoink!- Magic album being a comparison to the Adrenal Glands’ layers’ function), hands-on learning, or straight up 1-on-1 tutoring. If something as hard as giving out an in-depth explanation of the human body, one of the most complicated things to learn, can be taught in a way an idiot like myself can learn it, 343 can be able to attract people in different teaching methods to get them playing. Slap achievements to them and there you go.

Introduce mechanics that don’t conflict with the game everyone is familiar with ands you can expand the audience better than what 343 attempted to do. You want more players? Give them knowledge of how to play the game so they can start enjoying the game earlier and the game will better as a whole. Better matches, better que times, more likely to get DLC purchased and so on.

52

> Halo 4 brought in many features, such as Personal Ordnance and a big loadout feature, that were supposed to help new players. Instead, they drove most new players and old players away from the game as it ended up being a complicated mess that didn’t attract either side. Instead of helping them, they frustrated them, causing players to more than likely not return to the game.

Everyone assumes that 343i added these new features to “cater to n00bs” and “help new players”, but I seriously doubt that was the primary motivation behind the ones you list. Aim assist, going to hitscan but retaining bullet magnetism, and slowing movement helps new players . . . adding a bunch of complexity with weapons, AAs, and perks does the opposite. The features you mention were likely added to try to get crossover interest from other shooters, which have features that are similar in concept.

POD was a bad idea. It doesn’t help new players, either. All it does is give the better players better weapons to kill the new players faster. So if that was the idea behind it, it failed. I don’t think that was the intent. The intent was simply to reward good play with better weapons as a type of mini gun-game because those features are favorably received in other shooters. Regardless of their intent, POD was a bad idea. I hope it does not hang around for H5. To be honest, I really doubt they keep that feature. I think it will disappear.

Loadouts, though, have nothing to do with “helping new players”. Loadouts were provided to allow people to choose how they wanted to play and to support commendation attainment. There were three mistakes here: first, loadouts included weapons that should not have been included (namely, PP, PG, BS, and perhaps DMR and LR). Second, the added customization with all of the perks and AAs was excessive (8 * 10 * 13 = 1,024 total combinations for AAs / perks). This doesn’t help new players . . . it bewilders them. Third, the commendation setup was lazy, especially when it came to weapon kills. Loadouts were almost certainly an attempt to get crossover from other FPSs where customization is a standard expectation. It certainly wasn’t there to “help” new players.

Prior to the release of H4, Frank O’Connor went on record saying they hired people who hated Halo in an effort to improve it. He did not say (and they did not hire) people who were complete ignoramuses with respect to the shooter genre. They hired people who wanted to bring features from other games (that they enjoyed) to supplement Halo’s gameplay (that they did not enjoy). This was an attempt to expand the fan base. It failed, and I expect they will jettison or gut many of those features. Helping new players is a separate issue.

> 343’s idea to dumb down players doesn’t work. If they wanted to solve the problem of players not UNDERSTANDING what to do in this game, they need to make LEARNING the game easier. This can be accomplished with Training modes, tutorials, AI controlled opponents, and so on, in-game to explain why doing things a certain way is important.

Again, I don’t think the items to which you object were “dumbing” down Halo. Those items - due to their complexity - likely made understanding the game more difficult for brand-new players while simultaneously disrupting the expected gameplay for the returning players.

With that said, I fully support the ideas you list for helping new players. Those are good ideas and I hope that 343i is already implementing them.

> Introduce mechanics that don’t conflict with the game everyone is familiar with ands you can expand the audience better than what 343 attempted to do. You want more players? Give them knowledge of how to play the game so they can start enjoying the game earlier and the game will better as a whole. Better matches, better que times, more likely to get DLC purchased and so on.

I could not agree more (except that I want them to get their DLC revenue from something other than MP maps).

53

> Why should they? Isn’t a new game supposed to have addition rather than subtraction? If you honestly think taking away AA’s and Loadouts are going to save Halo, you’re wrong.
>
> This is my idea for what 343i could do to please both audiences.
>
> Just like Halo 3, have a social and ranked playlist. For ranked playlist you could have a Halo 3 1-50 True Skill system. And that rank is marked as your RANKED Playlist Rank. Make the gametypes in this playlist like “classic” Halo, where you have no loadouts, no AA’s, no ordnance.
>
> For Social, have a Social rank, or “SR” but instead of Spartan Rank it could stand for “Social Rank”. Have the rank like Reach and Halo 4’s credit system. And have any new additions like AA’s, Loadouts, ordnance. This is a way to possibly please both types of Halo players.
>
> Obviously this idea isn’t perfect, there probably are flaws in it, but there needs to be some way to please both sides. I mean we can’t expect 343i to just remove every addition they have made just because most of us love Halo 3 and 2 more than the new games.
>
> Another idea, please fix the menu system, just…please.

Looks like we have another one of “these” threads again. For the last time it wouldn’t be going backwards, it would be going back to Halo. All games that have went down a similar path have always failed or was failing before a reboot (aka going back to what the game actual is) turned things around. There are many examples, Socom being one of them were incompetent new hires added COD elements to a game it was not meant for, wanted for, or even made sense in and the fans turned on it and the game franchise suffered incredible damage. Just like the Halo 4 situation. That was not improvements being added to Socom, that was them making a 3rd person COD game. There is a difference.

But you are right a new game should have additions and improvements. In Halo 4 they didn’t do that as much as they made a non-Halo game and called it Halo 4. Again there is a difference.

If they can remove an incredible amount of things that made Halo “Halo”, then surely they can remove the stuff added to Reach and Halo 4 that has proven detrimental and down right simply not working with this type of game. And if something doesn’t work and is hated by the MAJORITY, then not removing it is pretty stupid don’t you think? Since when has it ever made sense to stay the course when something has not be successful or even good, just because of what? Ego? I seriously don’t know what would keep any person with a brain and some desire to succeed at their jobs from removing stuff that is hurting the game.

So yes we can and DO expect 343i to remove the garbage. They made a mistake other new devs have made to other games and the backlash and damage caused is predictable. Maybe one day game devs in one studio will learn from the mistakes made by multiple other devs so we don’t have this unnecessarily situation. The difference with Halo is that Halo is so big that it can take much more damage than other franchises like Socom without it killing it as fast.

54

The way I see it is as follows.

In 1988, John Frusciante replaced Hillel Slovak in the Red Hot Chili Peppers who had lost his life after a heroin overdose. Slovak was not a bad musician but up to that point the RHCP were relatively unknown and had been since 83. Frusciante was a great fit in the band and they developed a style of music that worked well for them which helped them achieve mainstream success with “Mothers Milk” (Halo CE/2).

In 1991 they released “Blood Sugar -Yoink!- Magic” which is now regarded by many critics as one of the best albums of all time (Halo 3). Frusciante who had developed a signature style of play similar to Hendrix was now a key part in the band’s formula.

Frusciante then left to deal with drug addiction at which point they brought in Dave Navaro, guitarist of Janes Addiction. They released “One Hot Minute” which was not on par with previous albums because the forumla had changed and people don’t like big change (Halo 4).

Was it a bad idea that they brought Frusciante back? Is that moving backwards? Should they have kept with Navaro and tried to work with him? No. With Frusciante they have released 4 of the biggest albums of the 90s and 00s (3 of which included in the Rolling Stones best 500 albums of all time) with songs that defined the 90s and 2000s e.g. Under the Bridge, Give It Away, Californiacation, Soul To Squeze, Otherside, Around the World, By The Way, Can’t Stop, The Zephyr Song, Dani California and Snow, to name a few. (This could be Halo 5)

But not one album sounds the exact same. They stuck to the formula however which is why they have been so successful. Halo 4 tried to be something its not which is why it failed in comparison to previous titles.

The little changes like graphical improvement, expansion on customization and sandbox ect is what I would like to see. Maybe even loadouts could work if restricted. Things like Sprint however do not fit into the formula so isn’t worth any effort to try improve upon. They will never be accepted and will always hold the game back.

55

> Everyone assumes that 343i added these new features to “cater to n00bs” and “help new players”, but I seriously doubt that was the primary motivation behind the ones you list.

Ordnance was designed to give new players “opportunities … to earn power weapons that they might never have got a chance to use in multiplayer before.” It was designed so that players who aimlessly wander around maps can still get power weapons. It was designed so that players don’t have to compete against enemies or teammates for power weapons (e.g. betraying for the Sniper Rifle). It wasn’t designed to make the game as a whole easier or more interesting; it was designed so that the n00bs who just like 'splody guns can use them more often. It may not “help” them per se, but it was designed for them.

(The latter half of the linked video is all about Halo 4’s multiplayer design. It’s very insightful.)

Similarly, perks don’t necessary make the game itself easier, but the intention behind perks is to give each player an advantage in however he wants to play. As long as players stick within their loadout’s niche, they are more likely to get kills and thus feel leet without leet skills. They will die more often when they are not in their loadout’s niche, but they feel it’s made up for them when they get that rush of getting a few kills in a row with the loadout. Again, doesn’t ultimately “help” n00bs because it’s also a hindrance, but it was designed for them.

56

> What people forget is that game developers now measure success of game in the $$$ they make from it and not from how popular it is or how long people keep playing it for. Pure and simple. Do you really think investors care whether you are still playing the game a month after release. No they want you to go and buy something else so they can make more money. Remember its their $$$ that pay for the game to be developed and they expect a return. Halo 4 was a good example of that. They brought in new features to attract new players to sell more copies.
>
> 343 will make the game the best they can to earn $$$ for their shareholders. It is a simple as that. They will build up the hype so everyone will pre order the game and upon release thats it they have made their money. What ever happens after that is mute. It will be onto the next game.

Well…Halo 4 didn’t outsell Halo 3. Halo 4 didn’t even sell as much as it should have or was on track to sell once people realized what they were getting. So if it is about making as much $$$ as they can, they’d go with the formula that actually sold the most, which is pre-Reach Halo. And given the amount of 360s worldwide sold in 2007 vs 2012, Halo 4 had every opportunity to be the biggest selling Xbox game. It being bad to many is why it failed at that.

So if it is about $$$, then making real Halo games seems to make more sense. Especially since more copies sold could also help DLC sales. It also helps with the sales of future games too. And you kinda care about people playing the game a long time after launch since that helps DLC. Not only that but if people love the game to play it for years after launch, then they’d almost automatically will buy the next game. Guaranteed sales and $$$.

On a side note, Microsoft have a problem on their hands. Because of the mediocre to bad experiences offered by non-numbered games like Spartan Assault and Halo Wars, anything that is not a numbered Halo game will not be taken as seriously these days. The only reason those games sold what they did is because Halo is in the title. If they keep this up, they will hurt the “Halo” brand.

When it comes to numbered games and even spin offs like Reach, if they keep down this path they will continue to hurt the brand and consumer trust. That will hurt future games and will impact $$$. And Halo is pretty much their Ace in the Hole and extremely important to Xbox One sales, they can’t afford to continue on a downward spiral when Sony is beating them over 2 to 1. Although it will take more than Halo, Halo has always been on the front lines of the battle and has always been extremely important.

57

> Stuff

I stand corrected. Thank you.

I don’t understand their logic. I’m not sure I see how they thought it would work out to be beneficial to new players.

Anyway, thanks for the correction.

58

> > Stuff
>
> I stand corrected. Thank you.
>
> I don’t understand their logic. I’m not sure I see how they thought it would work out to be beneficial to new players.
>
> Anyway, thanks for the correction.

You’re a stand-up man. I like that.

59

I thought Reach would be compared to the Millennium series.

60

> POD was a bad idea. It doesn’t help new players, either. All it does is give the better players better weapons to kill the new players faster. So if that was the idea behind it, it failed. I don’t think that was the intent. The intent was simply to reward good play with better weapons as a type of mini gun-game because those features are favorably received in other shooters. Regardless of their intent, POD was a bad idea. I hope it does not hang around for H5. To be honest, I really doubt they keep that feature. I think it will disappear.
>
> Loadouts, though, have nothing to do with “helping new players”. Loadouts were provided to allow people to choose how they wanted to play and to support commendation attainment. There were three mistakes here: first, loadouts included weapons that should not have been included (namely, PP, PG, BS, and perhaps DMR and LR). Second, the added customization with all of the perks and AAs was excessive (8 * 10 * 13 = 1,024 total combinations for AAs / perks). This doesn’t help new players . . . it bewilders them. Third, the commendation setup was lazy, especially when it came to weapon kills. Loadouts were almost certainly an attempt to get crossover from other FPSs where customization is a standard expectation. It certainly wasn’t there to “help” new players.

Totally agree.

Loadouts is something IMO can be retained if the items you listed including the DMR/LR be removed and were map pickups.

POD and PERKS have no place in Halo. I also think AA should return to map pickup like H3 Equipment, but can have multiple uses before being discarded.

61

> Why should they? Isn’t a new game supposed to have addition rather than subtraction? If you honestly think taking away AA’s and Loadouts are going to save Halo, you’re wrong.
>
> This is my idea for what 343i could do to please both audiences.
>
> Just like Halo 3, have a social and ranked playlist. For ranked playlist you could have a Halo 3 1-50 True Skill system. And that rank is marked as your RANKED Playlist Rank. Make the gametypes in this playlist like “classic” Halo, where you have no loadouts, no AA’s, no ordnance.
>
> For Social, have a Social rank, or “SR” but instead of Spartan Rank it could stand for “Social Rank”. Have the rank like Reach and Halo 4’s credit system. And have any new additions like AA’s, Loadouts, ordnance. This is a way to possibly please both types of Halo players.
>
> Obviously this idea isn’t perfect, there probably are flaws in it, but there needs to be some way to please both sides. I mean we can’t expect 343i to just remove every addition they have made just because most of us love Halo 3 and 2 more than the new games.
>
> Another idea, please fix the menu system, just…please.

oh my god, competitive is not 1-50… competitive can be gameplay without AA & Loaudouts, perks ecc… so, can you have 1-50, stars, ecc but if there are casual factor it will not be competitive…

62

> > Why should they? Isn’t a new game supposed to have addition rather than subtraction? If you honestly think taking away AA’s and Loadouts are going to save Halo, you’re wrong.
> >
> > This is my idea for what 343i could do to please both audiences.
> >
> > Just like Halo 3, have a social and ranked playlist. For ranked playlist you could have a Halo 3 1-50 True Skill system. And that rank is marked as your RANKED Playlist Rank. Make the gametypes in this playlist like “classic” Halo, where you have no loadouts, no AA’s, no ordnance.
> >
> > For Social, have a Social rank, or “SR” but instead of Spartan Rank it could stand for “Social Rank”. Have the rank like Reach and Halo 4’s credit system. And have any new additions like AA’s, Loadouts, ordnance. This is a way to possibly please both types of Halo players.
> >
> > Obviously this idea isn’t perfect, there probably are flaws in it, but there needs to be some way to please both sides. I mean we can’t expect 343i to just remove every addition they have made just because most of us love Halo 3 and 2 more than the new games.
> >
> > Another idea, please fix the menu system, just…please.
>
> oh my god, competitive is not 1-50… competitive can be gameplay without AA & Loaudouts, perks ecc… so, can you have 1-50, stars, ecc but if there are casual factor it will not be competitive…

Why would a game not be competitive if it has something to attract casuals? I I don’t know if this is the way for competitive players to keep casuals out completely or not.

I also don’t see the problem with sprint. If someone starts sprinting away form you when your about to kill them then GO AFTER THEM!!!. If it was a real skirmish we wouldn’t have time to complain about the target running away. Is it really that hard to shoot a guy running?.

If sprint does get removed however, 343 should ar least increase the general running or walking speed. As great as Halo 3’s game play was, it seems to be slow now compared to the previous Halo games.
then there is the concern of removing assassinations. If we try to make it too much like Halo 3 you could end up taking away what never caused any problems in the first place.
So it’s important that you specify what you feel is okay and not okay to have in Halo 5.
As for AA’s, I think having them as a pick up item might actually be okay.

Now if you feel that I misunderstood the sprint part then please let me know why.

63

> > > Stuff
> >
> > I stand corrected. Thank you.
> >
> > I don’t understand their logic. I’m not sure I see how they thought it would work out to be beneficial to new players.
> >
> > Anyway, thanks for the correction.
>
> You’re a stand-up man. I like that.

It’s easy to be when the person correcting you is also a stand-up guy. Vektor is one of my favorite posters here.

64

Also I doubt adding on to old features would do enough to make some innovation.
At least try to add something new to the game. Yes improving on feature sis always welcomed.

As for AA’s if we make them as just pick ups and only on certain playlists that’s fine with me. most casuals would never touch the competitive stuff.

Heck I never go near the competitive playlists unless it was required to unlock an armor piece.

65

I would agree to an extant with you OP:

I do find that if we remove EVERYTHING that’s been introduced into Reach the game won’t be anything more than Halo3 with a new coat of paint slapped on it, and that’s not going forwards period.

However I can also understand the frustration some of these people seem to have. That being said allow me to make my suggestions and maybe some rambling may occur here.

First off: Sprint, I keep hearing people say it’s random, and all that stuff and it should get removed: here’s a few issues I have with this statement.

First off: is it REALLY that hard to shoot a guy who’s running away? sure I can see it being an issue if they’re close by any objects that they can take cover behind but if they were close enough they wouldn’t have to sprint, if the guy was out in the open JUST SHOOT THEM! and instead of getting mad about your prey running off, go after em they may run away but you have that ability to so you should both be what a lot of folks keep saying “equals” if you both got the same weapon you both got sprint, so long as they don’t have some other AA there shouldn’t be an issue on that regards.

The only thing I think that can help a little bit: Just decrease the sprint speed’s timing down for about two seconds and the charge can take a little longer, I don’t care how heavy a Spartan’s armor is, they should be able to sprint into battle, not powerwalk, other wise 343 should increase the general movement speed, there shouldn’t be any reason to slow the game down to a crawl without being able to run into battle.

AA’s I’m ok with being map drops, but they should be good enough to actually seek out and I hope the balancing is fixed up here. I know some folks here don’t like the idea of AA’s at all but keep in mind, some of you folks aren’t the only ones who play Halo. I like to dabble a lot in custom games, and although AA’s may have been issue for some of you they have made custom games a million times more fun than ever. It feels awesome to use the Thruster pack in Halo4 on large platformer maps and zip around the sky firing out tons and tons of bullets as you dash from one platform to the next, it’s a pure adrenalin rush. My issue with the complete removal means custom games have less options for fun, I’ll be fine with them being map drops but in custom games they should have an “unlimited ammo” option. That shouldn’t be an issue and shouldn’t hurt competitive play.

Loadouts I can understand some of the problems definitely, I liked the Loadouts for the fact that I don’t spawn with a weapon I hate (BR/DMR for example)I preferably like to spawn with an AR. If we HAVE to nerf the Loadouts a bit I’m fine with it so long as I don’t have to be forced to use a BR/DMR I’m fine, I don’t mind if the other weapons are map pickups but I do think there’s some of us who do enjoy having a choice to pick which weapons we want.

They should keep the weapon balance to a degree in H4 while I do find the DMR was too long of a reach and that stupid pocket shotgun to be a little OP. It was nice that the AR could finally do some proper balance and actually kill at close range. So I think the balance was ok save for a few weapons in H4 and just needs to be worked.

Going back on Assassinations they’re one of the coolest and some of the most awsome ways of dispatching your foe. I’m not sure if everyone who wants removal of everything since Halo-Reach want’s this gone or not, but I don’t think it effects competitive play that much and you still have a choice to do it or not, so at least that should stay.

66

> Why would a game not be competitive if it has something to attract casuals? I I don’t know if this is the way for competitive players to keep casuals out completely or not.

I don’t think people where questioning the credentials of Unreal Tournament as it sported personal tactical nuclear missiles and personal teleportation devices. But then again that was before being tribal about your self-proclaimed group identity became a core part of being a gamer so I guess it could get away with a degree of heresy that today’s “fan” would burn Halo at the stake for without hesitation.

67

> > > Why should they? Isn’t a new game supposed to have addition rather than subtraction? If you honestly think taking away AA’s and Loadouts are going to save Halo, you’re wrong.
> > >
> > > This is my idea for what 343i could do to please both audiences.
> > >
> > > Just like Halo 3, have a social and ranked playlist. For ranked playlist you could have a Halo 3 1-50 True Skill system. And that rank is marked as your RANKED Playlist Rank. Make the gametypes in this playlist like “classic” Halo, where you have no loadouts, no AA’s, no ordnance.
> > >
> > > For Social, have a Social rank, or “SR” but instead of Spartan Rank it could stand for “Social Rank”. Have the rank like Reach and Halo 4’s credit system. And have any new additions like AA’s, Loadouts, ordnance. This is a way to possibly please both types of Halo players.
> > >
> > > Obviously this idea isn’t perfect, there probably are flaws in it, but there needs to be some way to please both sides. I mean we can’t expect 343i to just remove every addition they have made just because most of us love Halo 3 and 2 more than the new games.
> > >
> > > Another idea, please fix the menu system, just…please.
> >
> > oh my god, competitive is not 1-50… competitive can be gameplay without AA & Loaudouts, perks ecc… so, can you have 1-50, stars, ecc but if there are casual factor it will not be competitive…
>
> Why would a game not be competitive if it has something to attract casuals? I I don’t know if this is the way for competitive players to keep casuals out completely or not.
>
> I also don’t see the problem with sprint. If someone starts sprinting away form you when your about to kill them then GO AFTER THEM!!!. If it was a real skirmish we wouldn’t have time to complain about the target running away. Is it really that hard to shoot a guy running?.
>
> If sprint does get removed however, 343 should ar least increase the general running or walking speed. As great as Halo 3’s game play was, it seems to be slow now compared to the previous Halo games.
> then there is the concern of removing assassinations. If we try to make it too much like Halo 3 you could end up taking away what never caused any problems in the first place.
> So it’s important that you specify what you feel is okay and not okay to have in Halo 5.
> As for AA’s, I think having them as a pick up item might actually be okay.
>
>
> Now if you feel that I misunderstood the sprint part then please let me know why.

imho, sprint is a little problem… it’s not invasive as POD, or other armor abilitities…

imho, the biggest problem are (in order)

  1. POD (weapons must be put on the map)
  2. Sandobox (less power weapons)
  3. Armor abilities
  4. physic (less gravity)
  5. loadout

only removing POD and improving sandbox also, gameplay could be good…

68

Now What about assassinations? They were in Halo Reach and 4 should we keep those or just remove them because they were not in Halo 1-3.

69

> Now What about assassinations? They were in Halo Reach and 4 should we keep those or just remove them because they were not in Halo 1-3.

Assassinations do not reduce the sill-gap or add randomness (basically the same thing), so I have no problems with them.
I DO find that sometimes they are performed when I don’t intend to, so maybe they could increase the length required for the button hold by a smidge.

70

I’ve found assassinations to be one of the best things in Reach, I only hope we don’t lose those because they weren’t in Halo3.