I’m not crazy about this implementation of ordinance, but that’s not to say I wouldn’t like to see a different version of it in the future. Something tiered. Something more rare. Something restricted to, say, overshields. Or maybe a throw-away one-time use armor ability. I dunno, anything. There’s lots of ways to go.
I still believe it can work if done differently. There’s lots of potential for something that feels original Halo.
There are 2 routes you can take:
A) You can assert a claim
B) You can make a claim, and back it up with logical reasoning.
TC, you chose path A. I read the entirety of your post, and you didn’t adequately defend why you felt that ordnance are balanced.
When one person gets a Concussion Rifle, and the other gets an Incineration Cannon, that isn’t balanced in any sense of the word. Yes you can still kill the IC user, they don’t suddenly become God, but their lack of invincibility does not mean that their was balance.
Not to mention the fact that people cause deliberate black screens to get a free “Reroll” and choose the ordnance they actually wanted.
If you want to say:
You like ordnance - Fine
Ordnance improves the enjoyment for many players - Fine
Is a unique twist in H4 compared to other FPS games - Fine
The random ordnance is balanced - NO. You are simply wrong when you claim this.
Personal Ordnance and Map ordnance are on their own quite interesting features. The problem is that they are unpredictable, not that they are random.
The way I see map ordnance is that it was intended from the start to change how matches played, to add variation to the always static map weapons. All of the time a weapon spawn would be dashed to and fought over on the same place all the time. I imagine it’s that what they wanted to change.
The problem happened when they decided to make the waypoints appear when the weapon drops rather than long before it drops. Another problem is that the waypoint is only visible within a radius of 100m around it, and then it’s barely visible.
Personal Ordnance is as well another concept that should have been handled differently. Rather than provide power weapons it should provide Loadout weapon ammo refills or other loadout weapons if the user wanted to.
The problem with ordnance in it’s current iteration is that it provides advantages to players that didn’t figt over them at all. This as well unbalances even games. It doesn’t matter if all weapons were properly balanced, AA’s worked perfectly and vehicles were like in our dreams. Shootin Sammy pointed out that the Needler is an excellent weapon. Yes it is, but that doesn’t matter as each weapon in the ordnance drop have a significant area of usage.
Give me the option of frags, needler and grav hammer on the middle hill on ragnarok, or in the same place on the same map the options of Plasma Nades, Binary and Damage Boost and we all know that the second option is the prefered option. The usefullness of the options vary a lot depending on what kind of situation a player is in.
Another part is the Map ordnance and the way the weapons drop in all of a sudden, or at all. Ragnarok again is a good example as red side can get a binary rifle while blue can get an Inc Cannon further away from the base. While this is at faults with the actual placement of the drop points and that they are different weapons, it’s still a gamble when the weapons will appear.
When you then put this in even matching, the teams are equal, it becomes a lottery which team wins as the luckier team will get the more advantageous personal ordnance and/or the better map ordnance.
Also saying that it tests a player’s skill to the chaos that is Infinity Slayer, I say that in a single player environment it’d be more tolerable but still annoying. Or in a Co-Op environment against NPC enemies. Why should my skill be tested a lot more by giving me a weapon that’s not favourable for my situation than my opponent who could get a PO ideal for his or her situation? We’re testing our skills against each other, giving one an edge just because it’s a game mechanic hurt the whole mentality behind competition as it interfere with player controll and the outcome of the match. The whole point of multiplayer is to see which player or team is the best, and interfering with it by giving one side an edge goes against the whole concept of multiplayer.
Conclusion is that in an even environment Random Personal and Map Ordnance hurts balance between the teams.
Is there a solution where Ordnance can be kept? Well yes there is. It depends however how we want it.
1: If power weapons are kept in Personal Ordnance, a tiered system is required where each player is treated the same. There are two options with this as well. If we want randomness to stay with Personal Ordnance and have a tiered system then the different tiers must be randomly chosen at the start of the match and displayed to the players so they know what awaits. After the drops are chosen they’re static through the rest of the match and will not change. If however we don’t want that then a standard tier system can be used.
Problem with keeping power weapons in Personal Ordnance is that Map dropped weapons become somewhat useless and map movement becomes less of a priority. Map controll is more important when there are key weapon points to hold. That disappears when power weapons are promised wherever the player is through personal ordnance.
2: Power weapons are removed from personal ordnance and replaced with Loadout ammo refills and grenades. This ensures that the power weapons doesn’t overflow as they currently tend to do. It also puts more emphasis on moving around the map to aquire the power weapons.
With these two options Map ordnance still is an issue, and the solution to that I believe is to make the waypoint for the incoming weapon spawn atleast half a minute before the weapon is dropped and show it to everyone on the map. This way everyone is aware when, where and what will spawn. If they then chose to go for it they may have to fight others who want it as well.
The problem here is then that any stealthy player may want to aquire the weapons without the others knowing it. So the waypoint should then disappear as the weapon drops, or five seconds after it has dropped regardless if it has been picked or not.
Another problem is that a weapon could potentially spawn in an allready controlled territory, but that could be prevented by having protocolls that ensure weapons do not drop into controlled areas prior to the drop check. So a weapon couldn’t be dropped into an allready controlled area.
There are then plenty of other version of these that could be mixed. Like if you order a personal power weapon it’ll drop somewhere on the map and not directly by your side and it’s shown to everyone where and what will drop. So the players choose what weapons but they’ll have to fight for them.
Or that in order to aquire a power weapon through personal ordnance the players have to go to specific “drop zones” in order to drop a weapon, which would be static and provide the map with zones to controll, thus enforcing map controll.
There are as I said plenty of different routes to take with Ordnance in a way that ensures a competitive value and still function almost like they do now.
> See the thing that balanced ordnance is there never is a bad option. Everyone cries, ohh I got a needler he got whatever, but the needler is an excellent weapon! Remember that.
Ah yes, this. Too bad that it’s more a situational aspect than a weapon related “cry”.
You getting a sniper and me getting a needler in a long range situation is more advantageous for you. Why shouldn’t your skill be tested as much as mine? Why should I work harder than you to win the match? If we’re equal, why shouldn’t we be equally tested? Why should one get a situationally better drop than the other through a random mechanism?
> Personal ordnance is great! A skilled player can make use of anything he is given and it’s exciting and fun to get one.
>
> Random ordnance is great! It takes lots of skill to be paying careful attention and react fast to run over and get one. You have to be on top of things. Anyone who says otherwise needs more practice! Hang in there
A skilled player will fail against another equally skilled player who got a situationally better drop.
I will play a certain way if I know there’s a sniper out there, but as there can be anything out there I don’t know how to play to my advantage and it becomes a guessing game. You can’t be good at guessing games. No matter how many times you try to predict coin tosses, you won’t get better at in with time.
> Not to mention the fact that people cause deliberate black screens to get a free “Reroll” and choose the ordnance they actually wanted.
This happened once just when I ordered a SAW, it never came.
> No.Personal Ordnance should be limited to extra ammo for your loadout weapon or grenades as the only options
This, Ordnance isn’t a bad idea by any means, it’s the way it is carried out
interesting thoughts and to be honest, hadn’t thought of it like that. how about this for the future:
we tier them tier one: speed boost, overshield, grenades or ammo
tier two: sticky bomb shooter thing i never use, damage boost, needler
tier three: sniper, saw, splaser
you only get one tier before it resets, so you either take the t1 or gather more points so you can get a 2 or 3.
either that or again, let people choose the one ordnance they want, but assign it a point value based off of the killing power of the drop alone. (i.e. a saw will get you like 6 kills just by using the saw, it should be 150. and while you can get six with the speed boost and sword, you still can’t get it with just speed boost, so that would cost only 50, or whatever the point value determined is)
either way the player knows exactly what they will get, but a level of randomness is still in the game as far as you don’t know what your opponent chose or when they will get it.
>
For once, I agree with you. PO at it’s current state will only be balanced if everyone got the same thing, or it depends less on luck. I also shouldn’t be able to get a power weapon more than once per game from PO.
Usually I come into threads like these and disagree on just about every level.
However, there seems to be a lot of good constructive criticism and succession of points on both parties. It’s good to see.
Personally, i feel that PO’s is one of the main factors that ruin Halo 4’s Multi, with Loadouts being worst contributor. There’s just too much randomness involved in them. I can be on a rampage, then turn a corner to see some joker scoped in with a Binary rifle and get OS’d. That isn’t skill if you ask me.
> interesting thoughts and to be honest, hadn’t thought of it like that. how about this for the future:
>
> we tier them tier one: speed boost, overshield, grenades or ammo
> tier two: sticky bomb shooter thing i never use, damage boost, needler
> tier three: sniper, saw, splaser
>
> you only get one tier before it resets, so you either take the t1 or gather more points so you can get a 2 or 3.
To be honest, I do not like power weapons in Personal Ordnance so I would only like it to be ammo refills and grenades. Simply because it detracts from getting power weapons from the map.
Players are less inclined to move around and risk dying for a power weapon if they are promised a power weapon, atleast that’s my experience of it.
However, tell them where a highly wanted power weapon will drop and you’ll have quite a battle there for it, provided the power weapons can’t be aquired through any other means than from the map.
Tiered is a way of doing it, but it could be a gametype of it’s own at most then, that’s my view of it.
> either that or again, let people choose the one ordnance they want, but assign it a point value based off of the killing power of the drop alone. (i.e. a saw will get you like 6 kills just by using the saw, it should be 150. and while you can get six with the speed boost and sword, you still can’t get it with just speed boost, so that would cost only 50, or whatever the point value determined is)
>
> either way the player knows exactly what they will get, but a level of randomness is still in the game as far as you don’t know what your opponent chose or when they will get it.
I’m also against letting players choose what ordnance they get, atleast if power weapons were involved. I imagine vehicle gameplay would take quite a dent if a player was able to call down a laser for sure and on command provided the points are aquired for it.
See, the problem is that we want to be able to know what the other player is planning, by that we can play in a countering way.
By knowing that there is a sniper spawning on the map, we can play accordingly. This becomes a guess work if the enemy can pick and choose whatever he/she wants and we’re back to the current problem of guessing.
> interesting thoughts and to be honest, hadn’t thought of it like that. how about this for the future:
>
> we tier them tier one: speed boost, overshield, grenades or ammo
> tier two: sticky bomb shooter thing i never use, damage boost, needler
> tier three: sniper, saw, splaser
>
> you only get one tier before it resets, so you either take the t1 or gather more points so you can get a 2 or 3.
>
> either that or again, let people choose the one ordnance they want, but assign it a point value based off of the killing power of the drop alone. (i.e. a saw will get you like 6 kills just by using the saw, it should be 150. and while you can get six with the speed boost and sword, you still can’t get it with just speed boost, so that would cost only 50, or whatever the point value determined is)
>
> either way the player knows exactly what they will get, but a level of randomness is still in the game as far as you don’t know what your opponent chose or when they will get it.
So you take Personal Ordnance, a feature that works suspiciously similar to Call of Duty’s killstreaks, and make it work exactly like Call of Duty’s killstreaks? Has innovation completely left Halo?
The problem with tiered POs is that is gives players who are already doing well in a match tools to do even better. That’s like making steroids legal in pro sports, but only to the all-stars.
The point of Personal Ordnance, its sole reason for existence, is to give every player an equal chance to have and use a power weapon. It was specifically designed to lower the skill gap between good players and poor players and is therefore imbalanced by design.
daalani, your highest CSR is 14. That’s fine; I don’t mean to insult, but based on that, you probably don’t really know what it is to play at a skilled/competitive level. You may have a decent K/D, but that doesn’t mean as much when you play against CSR 5-20 players (if I was constantly getting matched with players around that rank, my K/D would be through the roof). Lower-ranked players do not know how weapons and abilities should be used, how other players’ weapons and abilities should be countered, and how to best take advantage of the system, so games are going to play a lot differently.
Games that give random advantage through chance, as is with Personal Ordnance, I do not consider competitive. I think that Infinity Slayer is more like an Action Sack gametype in that it’s fun because everyone gets a power weapon at some point, but it’s not competitive due to the significant role that chance plays. Personal Ordnance may as well be called Fiesta Ordnance.
IMO, one of the the only problems with ordnance is when u JIP a game and evryone already has like 2 power weapons each and u only have ur loadout guns. I know that u can just get the weapon from the ground once u kill the but at first u run into a guy expecting to have an easy 5shot kill with a BR/DMR but instead he just pulls out a SAW and destroys you. I dont know how to fix this little problem, (Im not just gonna say the usual JIP sucks routine) but I do know it has happened many times and I have been on either end of it.
Also, if someone is skilled enough, an ordnance weapon with 5 kills remaining can wreck the game… no more intense last minute rushes for a power weapon on the map, no more strategy, basically, one guy gets sniper/shotgun, gets 5 kills with it, game over…
> > interesting thoughts and to be honest, hadn’t thought of it like that. how about this for the future:
> >
> > we tier them tier one: speed boost, overshield, grenades or ammo
> > tier two: sticky bomb shooter thing i never use, damage boost, needler
> > tier three: sniper, saw, splaser
> >
> > you only get one tier before it resets, so you either take the t1 or gather more points so you can get a 2 or 3.
> >
> > either that or again, let people choose the one ordnance they want, but assign it a point value based off of the killing power of the drop alone. (i.e. a saw will get you like 6 kills just by using the saw, it should be 150. and while you can get six with the speed boost and sword, you still can’t get it with just speed boost, so that would cost only 50, or whatever the point value determined is)
> >
> > either way the player knows exactly what they will get, but a level of randomness is still in the game as far as you don’t know what your opponent chose or when they will get it.
>
> So you take Personal Ordnance, a feature that works suspiciously similar to Call of Duty’s killstreaks, and make it work exactly like Call of Duty’s killstreaks? Has innovation completely left Halo?
>
> The problem with tiered POs is that is gives players who are already doing well in a match tools to do even better. That’s like making steroids legal in pro sports, but only to the all-stars.
>
> The point of Personal Ordnance, its sole reason for existence, is to give every player an equal chance to have and use a power weapon. It was specifically designed to lower the skill gap between good players and poor players and is therefore imbalanced by design.
>
> daalani, your highest CSR is 14. That’s fine; I don’t mean to insult, but you really don’t know what it is to play at a skilled/competitive level. You may have a decent K/D, but that doesn’t mean as much when you play against CSR 5-20 players (if I was constantly getting matched with players around that rank, my K/D would be through the roof). Lower-ranked players do not know how weapons should be used, how other players’ weapons should be countered, and how to best take advantage of the system, so games are going to play a lot differently. Games that give random advantage through chance, as is with Personal Ordnance, I do not consider competitive. I think that Infinity Slayer is more like an Action Sack gametype in that it’s fun because everyone gets a power weapon at some point, but it’s not competitive due to the significant role that chance plays. Personal Ordnance may as well be called Fiesta Ordnance.
there are reasons we don’t bring skill into it. i JUST got back into halo 4 after the patch. i haven’t really had much time to level out. but don’t think i haven’t been playing halo for over a decade. ztunzed in halo 2, level 37 legit. halo 3, superskunkbros2 quit before hitting my first 50 because my box got rrod, but the stats are there. toogayguys in halo 3, also a high level, great k/d w/l record. don’t make assumptions about my level of skill. and don’t assume i don’t know competitive play, i got my -Yoink- kicked by an ogre at a tournie in halo 2, i know competitive play. thanks.
edit. and you may wanna reread all of what i wrote. or go play a cod game so you can see just how off you are with your “exactly like it” remark.
> interesting thoughts and to be honest, hadn’t thought of it like that. how about this for the future:
>
> we tier them tier one: speed boost, overshield, grenades or ammo
> tier two: sticky bomb shooter thing i never use, damage boost, needler
> tier three: sniper, saw, splaser
>
> you only get one tier before it resets, so you either take the t1 or gather more points so you can get a 2 or 3.
>
> either that or again, let people choose the one ordnance they want, but assign it a point value based off of the killing power of the drop alone. (i.e. a saw will get you like 6 kills just by using the saw, it should be 150. and while you can get six with the speed boost and sword, you still can’t get it with just speed boost, so that would cost only 50, or whatever the point value determined is)
>
> either way the player knows exactly what they will get, but a level of randomness is still in the game as far as you don’t know what your opponent chose or when they will get it.
The problem with personal ordnance isn’t really the randomness. The issue of randomness only applies to global ordnance drops. Personal ordnance aren’t really random. The player isn’t informed about their opponent’s ordnance drops, but that’s not really the problem.
The problem is that the opponent will get the ordnance drop. No matter what the player does, their opponent will, at some point, get a power weapon, and there is nothing the player can do about it. That is in contrast to map-based, statically spawning weapons or even global ordnance, which is contestable. It’s neutral. Players actually have beat their opponents to it. There is actually a way to prevent your opponents from getting the power weapons and gain the advantage given by one yourself.
That’s why no form of personal ordnance that includes any form of power weapons or power-ups should be in the game. If everyone has their own ordnance streams, no matter how you distribute and organize it, as long as it includes objects that give the player a substantial advantage, it will be a problem. Because in a competitively fair game an advantage needs to be gained.
For this reason, if personal ordnance is to be in the game, it should only offer drops that give no real advantage, i.e. ammo for main weapons and grenades. No power weapons, no power-ups. They should only replenish what you are already given at spawn.
> there are reasons we don’t bring skill into it. i JUST got back into halo 4 after the patch. i haven’t really had much time to level out. but don’t think i haven’t been playing halo for over a decade. ztunzed in halo 2, level 37 legit. halo 3, superskunkbros2 quit before hitting my first 50 because my box got rrod, but the stats are there. toogayguys in halo 3, also a high level, great k/d w/l record. don’t make assumptions about my level of skill. and don’t assume i don’t know competitive play, i got my -Yoink!- kicked by an ogre at a tournie in halo 2, i know competitive play. thanks.
>
> edit. and you may wanna reread all of what i wrote. or go play a cod game so you can see just how off you are with your “exactly like it” remark.
I guess you missed the part where he said “I don’t mean to insult” because that’s exactly how you took it.
> > there are reasons we don’t bring skill into it. i JUST got back into halo 4 after the patch. i haven’t really had much time to level out. but don’t think i haven’t been playing halo for over a decade. ztunzed in halo 2, level 37 legit. halo 3, superskunkbros2 quit before hitting my first 50 because my box got rrod, but the stats are there. toogayguys in halo 3, also a high level, great k/d w/l record. don’t make assumptions about my level of skill. and don’t assume i don’t know competitive play, i got my -Yoink!- kicked by an ogre at a tournie in halo 2, i know competitive play. thanks.
> >
> > edit. and you may wanna reread all of what i wrote. or go play a cod game so you can see just how off you are with your “exactly like it” remark.
>
> I guess you missed the part where he said “I don’t mean to insult” because that’s exactly how you took it.
i guess you missed the life lesson, when someone says, “i don’t mean to offend you, but…” they’re about to say something offense and ignorant. he is making assumptions that i play with a group under the best conditions all the time, and that I’ve been playing halo 4 this entire time. truth is, I’ve been back in halo for about 2 weeks, and i NEVER group up. not that i’m against it, i just don’t have a ton of time, so i can’t be counted on with a group of friends, knowwhatimeanvern. my stats are great, but we all know, it’s not just your play that determines your csr… we all do realize that, right?
edit: point is, and i had to learn it myself, if you have to bring player skill into your argument, then the argument you presented isn’t valid enough to stand on it’s own merits, and you’re personally attacking one you disagree with to try to devalue his/her opinion…
This post has been edited by a moderator. Please do not flame or attack other members. This includes stat-flaming.
*Original post. Click at your own discretion.
> i guess you missed the life lesson, when someone says, “i don’t mean to offend you, but…” they’re about to say something offense and ignorant. he is making assumptions that i play with a group under the best conditions all the time, and that I’ve been playing halo 4 this entire time. truth is, I’ve been back in halo for about 2 weeks, and i NEVER group up. not that i’m against it, i just don’t have a ton of time, so i can’t be counted on with a group of friends, knowwhatimeanvern. my stats are great, but we all know, it’s not just your play that determines your csr… we all do realize that, right?
He brought it up for a reason though. Judging strictly by that 14 CSR, you simply don’t know what you’re talking about.
You’re saying that you do because you have plenty of Halo experience elsewhere.
I’m not here to debate that at all. I’m just saying that he brought it up for good reason, did so nicely without the intent of trying to offend you, and you did exactly that.
We’re moving from the topic though so i’ll leave it at that.
How about them ordinance drops people?
>
again though, you all assume a lot of things by judging based off of csr. you assume we all have the same connection speeds. pretty much most that are sitting at 50 in everything have great connections and are generally host. we all know host… when we can four shot everyone… we’re assuming we all play in premade groups all the time that we gel with…
point is, there are far too many variable in csr alone to use it as the only value you base it on. last i checked, before he patch, 4 was sitting at around 20k player… it’s jumped up markedly. you think some may still be too new to have gotten their csr to its apex? no, none of these are possible! bringing up my 14 csr is completely relevant!
skill levels are useless measures in p2p server games, people. i mean really.
edit: lets not forget those who are level 130 and cr 10 who may not try to win em all, just to keep kill easy lowbies… you can’t say they aren’t there. they are at every level. if you bring up stats, then see my performance in my losses. still generally a good showing with high kills and assists with low deaths. i can’t win for four people solely on my own merits against a good team, but i still perform well… skill serves no purpose on the forums. sorry.
> again though, you all assume a lot of things by judging based off of csr. you assume we all have the same connection speeds. pretty much most that are sitting at 50 in everything have great connections and are generally host. we all know host… when we can four shot everyone… we’re assuming we all play in premade groups all the time that we gel with…
>
> point is, there are far too many variable in csr alone to use it as the only value you base it on. last i checked, before he patch, 4 was sitting at around 20k player… it’s jumped up markedly. you think some may still be too new to have gotten their csr to its apex? no, none of these are possible! bringing up my 14 csr is completely relevant!
>
> skill levels are useless measures in p2p server games, people. i mean really.
>
> edit: lets not forget those who are level 130 and cr 10 who may not try to win em all, just to keep kill easy lowbies… you can’t say they aren’t there. they are at every level. if you bring up stats, then see my performance in my losses. still generally a good showing with high kills and assists with low deaths. i can’t win for four people solely on my own merits against a good team, but i still perform well… skill serves no purpose on the forums. sorry.
Eh i’m not here to debate whether or not you’re qualified to have an opinion on this or not. I’ve already stated why i think it sucks, so if you want to debate my reasons feel free.
No one ever brings up skill of another if they agree.
I’ve never seen a thread where someone agrees and is shot down because their stats aren’t as good as others’ stats who agree.
As in this case, if OP would have had a different view on Ordnance, like it’s a pile of crap. None of you who brought it up would have mentioned his skill levels.
Lay off bringing skill into the discussion, it’s totally irrelevant.
> No one ever brings up skill of another if they agree.
>
> I’ve never seen a thread where someone agrees and is shot down because their stats aren’t as good as others’ stats who agree.
>
> As in this case, if OP would have had a different view on Ordnance, like it’s a pile of crap. None of you who brought it up would have mentioned his skill levels.
>
> Lay off bringing skill into the discussion, it’s totally irrelevant.
Wouldn’t skill be relevant in a game so heavily based upon skill, such as Halo though?