Why not just remove Melee and Grenades?

I’m actually serious. Melee and Grenades have never once benefited skilled play to a true extent. All they have ever accomplished is to be a crutch for bad players to lean on, either through using the LT as a get out of jail free card (just spamming it, or using it to replace the skill of headshotting, or shooting the enemy). Or Melee is used to turn a fight where you are getting dominated, into a cheap and easy trade/win (And honestly, when HE didn’t melee YOU back, it’s because he knew it would trade, and tried to gun you down with skill).

Seriously. They do nothing but hold Halo back from being a truly skill-based game.

I would settle for only spawning with one, severely nerfed Grenade. Or Melee goign back to a 3-4 hit kill. But seriously. They are either too weak, and aren’t worth bothering with, or they are too strong and too noob friendly. There has never been a happy medium, and one will never be found.

HELL NO!

ummmmm… all i know is… I WANT what your smoking :smiley:

It seems like, on this forum, you can say whatever you want, so long as you link the word “skill” towards your line of thinking and imply that other people don’t have “the skills” unless they agree with them.

You’re kidding, right? No, you’re not. Wow.

Both Melee and grenades have their place in Halo. Both can be used in a skillful manner. The only place melee is useful in extreme close quarters. In such a case, you are a fool not to use it.

Grenades can be use to quickly remove shields allowing for faster kills or multi-kills. There’s also the skill associated with sticking enemy players.

By your logic, let’s just remove every weapon but the utility weapon (BR for example), since the sandbox allows for play-style variety which can deter skill-based play.

I’m gonna have to go with a “NO” on this one.

Imagine watching two players in extreme close-quarters try to shoot each other to try to kill one another. While hilarious, it makes no sense to be shooting when they can simply use melee combat.

Also, the placement of grenades is, without a doubt, skillful. Using them as deterrents to push your enemy into your or a teammate’s line of fire is a wonderful skill to acquire.

Melee, grenade, and weapon make up the Halo triangle. The developers will never change that.

Melee and Grenades aren’t “Playstyle” and they can only be used skillfully on such a small variety of instances.

The fact is. When someone spots you on their motion tracker and can’t see you, they are just going to spam the left trigger at the nearest corner, and hope to catch you on the bounce. There is NO skill in actually aiming or placing these grenades. They are in fact ALOT more likely to hit than miss if you just casually chuck them at the wall.

The problem isn’t 1 on 1, having ONE guy there doing this. The problem is that EVERYONE gets two of these death machines, and when you are that poor guy on the motion tracker, YOU are going to get 2,3,4,5,6+ explosions around you. Have you ever just COUNTED how many times you hear a grenade explosion in a match? In a full match, there are usually over twice as many explosions from grenades thrown at you specifically, then there are kills in the whole match. It’s absolutely ridiculous. Even quote “Pros” literally just empty their Grenade Pocket when there’s an enemy they can’t get a clear shot on, even if they are just GUESSING he’s there. It’s not a skill based thing. Throwing a Grenade serves NO repercussions for screwing up.

As per Melee, I swear, is AR/Melee from the Halo 3 days, or Sprint Melee haven’t been the bane of your existence since either game came out, you were one of the newbies actually doing it. And all either ever lead to is the guarantee that you will TRADE kills, unless they can’t react. There’s no such thing as “screwing up” an AR Melee or double Melee. It doesn’t happen. There’s no skill in doing it. All you ever accomplish by throwing down a Melee attack, is putting yourself in FAR more danger than you want to be in.

> I’m gonna have to go with a “NO” on this one.
>
> Imagine watching two players in extreme close-quarters try to shoot each other to try to kill one another. While hilarious, it makes no sense to be shooting when they can simply use melee combat.
>
> Also, the placement of grenades is, without a doubt, skillful. Using them as deterrents to push your enemy into your or a teammate’s line of fire is a wonderful skill to acquire.

I admit I saw people do this in Halo 2 and 3, and I did it alot in both those games. But in both Halo CE and Halo Reach, grenades are nothing more than Nukes used to kill people you either can’t see directly, or you don’t feel you’re skilled enough to actually finish off with your gun.

WAY, WAY too often I’ll get 2 shots into a DMR fight with someone. And they’ll just chuck a grenade and stand there while I die because it’s unavoidable, they didn’t use skill to place it, they literally just mashed the LT. And these grenades almost ALWAYS hit in Reach, no matter how much effort you put into dodging them. At that point, I generally just finish him with my gun and trade (no skill on his part), UNLESS I miss that 5th headshot, which after a nade is thrown, I have to speed up my shots and rely on random bloom to save the day. Or throw my own and trade (no skill on either of our parts).

I swear, it’s harder to NOT hit with a Grenade in Reach than it is to hit.

Anyone down for ninja only matches? To bad we couldn’t “splintercellPD” them durning the assassianations, you know let attacker whisper sweet nothings into the headset of the victim.

Removing them is silly. Nerfing melees to have less lunge, and nerfing nades to have less blast radius will solve the problem. A 2 hit kill melee with bleedthrough promotes faster gameplay.

I will pick melee and grenade OVER HAVING AA’S

EVERY TIME

> Removing them is silly. Nerfing melees to have less lunge, and nerfing nades to have less blast radius will solve the problem. A 2 hit kill melee with bleedthrough promotes faster gameplay.

It’d be nice to have less overall grenades. Just thinking a few things over. In a standard 4v4. That’s a grand total 16 grenades off spawn. Every time a player dies, 2 more grenades get added to the fight, and then to make matters worse, what grenades aren’t used drop for anyone to pick up, and the average map has about 8 total grenades lying around on 10 second spawn timers. 4 of which are always right next to a spawn point.

Meaning off the bat are 20 total grenades ready to be thrown. TWENTY.

That’s just ridiculous. Spawning players with just 1 grenade, and lowering the spawn timer of nades on the map would make a huge impact on thinking nade throws through vs just spamming them out for an easy kill.

Am I really the only one getting really sick of everyone throwing the word “skill” around like it’s going out of style? Seriously. People will just toss that word “skill” in there, and surely then, surely then their argument will have merit! It’s just getting worse and worse - the desperado attempts to garner credibility with that word are getting more and more cringe-worthy, and I honestly believe this to be the zenith of that trend, thus far. Sorry OP, I’m not trying to discredit you or your ideas, just…

I’m sorry, I don’t see how “skill” can be a such an important parameter for a variety of gameplay features. If you can’t use something skillfully (or, more accurately, if most people don’t use it skillfully), then it should just be removed from the game, full stop! Right???

It’s just ridiculous!

Skill should not be a discriminating factor for the inclusion of such features as melee and grenades.

Skill is subjective. You and I mean different things when we say that word. And so there’s your inherent problem: skill is not objective. Your skill is not my skill. Skill is simply unreliable as a parameter for inclusion.

> Am I really the only one getting really sick of everyone throwing the word “skill” around like it’s going out of style? Seriously. People will just toss that word “skill” in there, and surely then, surely then their argument will have merit! It’s just getting worse and worse - the desperado attempts to garner credibility with that word are getting more and more cringe-worthy, and I honestly believe this to be the zenith of that trend, thus far. Sorry OP, I’m not trying to discredit you or your ideas, just…
>
> I’m sorry, I don’t see how “skill” can be a such an important parameter for a variety of gameplay features. If you can’t use something skillfully (or, more accurately, if most people don’t use it skillfully), then it should just be removed from the game, full stop! Right???
>
> It’s just ridiculous!
>
> Skill should not be a discriminating factor for the inclusion of such features as melee and grenades.
>
> Skill is subjective. You and I mean different things when we say that word. And so there’s your inherent problem: skill is not objective. Your skill is not my skill. Skill is simply unreliable as a parameter for inclusion.

The fact is if something gets in the way of the better player beating the worse player, it does nothing but remove from the overall experience of playing to win. This is pure truth.

“Or Melee goign back to a 3-4 hit kill.”

Yes!

Why is anybody taking this serious in the slightest? There’s nothing serious about ever wanting melees and nades gone, now, three-hit melee is another matter.

melees and grenades have there place in competitive skill based things. it really does not make sense to avoid punching someone whos right in your face. really melee is only annoying when people GO for DBD’s. grenades are used to deal with multiple enemies at once. to pop shields on flankers and to make a temp. area where the enemy can’t go giving precious time to a flag carrier or to give you a breather for your shields.

grenades are only annoying when spammed. they arn’t OP and don’t need a nerf. just because you have jerks out there who use certain tactics doesn’t mean everyone does. and it doesn’t constitute removal or severe nerfs. Your letting your frustration cloud your judgment.

> > Am I really the only one getting really sick of everyone throwing the word “skill” around like it’s going out of style? Seriously. People will just toss that word “skill” in there, and surely then, surely then their argument will have merit! It’s just getting worse and worse - the desperado attempts to garner credibility with that word are getting more and more cringe-worthy, and I honestly believe this to be the zenith of that trend, thus far. Sorry OP, I’m not trying to discredit you or your ideas, just…
> >
> > I’m sorry, I don’t see how “skill” can be a such an important parameter for a variety of gameplay features. If you can’t use something skillfully (or, more accurately, if most people don’t use it skillfully), then it should just be removed from the game, full stop! Right???
> >
> > It’s just ridiculous!
> >
> > Skill should not be a discriminating factor for the inclusion of such features as melee and grenades.
> >
> > Skill is subjective. You and I mean different things when we say that word. And so there’s your inherent problem: skill is not objective. Your skill is not my skill. Skill is simply unreliable as a parameter for inclusion.
>
> The fact is if something gets in the way of the better player beating the worse player, it does nothing but remove from the overall experience of playing to win. This is pure truth.

That is not the bottom line, because, as I implied before, “better player” and “worse player” are both clearly subjective terms, and in a game as multi-faceted as Halo, they’re both too broad. Who is the “better player” then, hmm? Is he the player who always uses his BR to 5-shot kill his opponents? And he’s good at this because he can always do it in 5 shots?

If this is the case, why is a player who successfully kills him by first throwing a grenade at his feet considered inferior to him? Is it because, in pure gunplay terms, the first player can usually kill faster?

If I use grenades to kill you while you’re trying to shoot me, how is that considered a mechanic “getting in the way” of you killing me? Do you see the schism here?

Randomness is one thing. I completely agree that a randomized factor, such as bloom, should never feature in the Halo playing field. That is one great example where a feature is “getting in the way of the better player killing the worse player”. There, you’re clearly comparing skill in one aspect: shooting. And bloom levels the playing field, closes the skill gap, and enables players who would normally be inferior shooters to randomly land lucky shots. That’s infuriating and detracts from the “play to win” experience. I agree.

But trying to say that a player who is killed by grenades while trying to outshoot his opponent is more skilled simply because he’s using a gun, and not a grenade, is madness. Overall Halo skill - playing to win - is a culmination of a bunch of different skills. You’ve got to be proficient with guns, grenades, melee, armor abilities, awareness, map control - just to name a few things - and placement and timing of these skills. To break “skilled play” down to a single encounter where a gun user is killed by a grenade is to massively understate the case.

The better player is the one killing the worse player, provided something like bloom is not a factor.

here is my thought