Can anyone tell me? I hardly see it a argument against ZB being overpowered for dmr/pistol.
ZB is not balanced. RoF cap is necessary for those 2 weapons.
The pistol especially.
Because it promotes map movement. If dmr/pistol beat EVERYTHING there’s no reasonable reason to push for power weapons (other than maybe rockets). You’re going to end up with a bunch of stalemate games where people just poke and shoot. Ever played the Cage/Swordbase at high level Arena? Try it and you’ll see what I mean.
Because a game where more weapons are useful is inherently more interesting to play because it gives players more options as to how to go about playing.
DMR and the pisol beat the TIER 1 WEAPONS. Did you see that?
TIER 1 WEAPONSSSS! <----------
The point of the sandbox is to get the better weapons and use them at their appropriate range. Start off with DMRs? That’s balance. Come on people. Think about wat your saying.
> ZB is not balanced. RoF cap is necessary for those 2 weapons.
>
> The pistol especially.
I asked why is balance important… not is it balanced.
> Because it promotes map movement. If dmr/pistol beat EVERYTHING there’s no reasonable reason to push for power weapons (other than maybe rockets). You’re going to end up with a bunch of stalemate games where people just poke and shoot. Ever played the Cage/Swordbase at high level Arena? Try it and you’ll see what I mean.
I DO agree with this, but only to an extent. In vanilla reach, lets say count down for example. It has needler, which can beat a dmr’r in certain situations. Concusion rifle almost always wins 1v1. Shotgun and sword are often the winner because they can camp off-radar until you walk by. Plasma pistol coupled with a dmr will almsot always beat jsut a dmr. Needler rifle usualy wins at further ranges.
I think, with this many power weapons, it actualy demotes map movement. If it was just 1-2 larger powerweapons like rockets and sniper or sniper and shotgun, i would agree.
You also gotta remember about how Bungie puts the weapons matters too. Take boardwalk’s rockets for example. Those dont promote map movement. They put them in a far dark corner under the map where no-one would go.
But i do kinda agree.
> Because a game where more weapons are useful is inherently more interesting to play because it gives players more options as to how to go about playing.
Its not interesting when i get sworded in the face by a camper.
Its not interesting when someone shotguns me when i walk past a door.
Its not interesting when someone 6 shots me with a concussion rifle.
If anything these pre-determined battles make it MUCH more boring and less chance of surprising gameplay.
> DMR and the pisol beat the TIER 1 WEAPONS. Did you see that?
> TIER 1 WEAPONSSSS! <----------
>
> The point of the sandbox is to get the better weapons and use them at their appropriate range. Start off with DMRs? That’s balance. Come on people. Think about wat your saying.
There is no “better weapon” there is only like 1000 niche weapons.
For example if i have a shotgun and someone is shooting at me, guess what im gonna do. I’m gonna camp in a corner until he comes into my niche. This seriously slows down the gameplay.
If i have a sniper and someone is close to me, im probably going to run to a further distance.
Rockets also dont work at realy long ranges.
So using weapons at appropriate range is not an argument. The DMR/Pistol should fit all niches while having a chance to beat power weapons at the niches that they unfortunately have if the DMR/pistol user out-plays the power weapon user.
Here is one, of many, threads explaining why a balanced sandbox is important.
> > Because a game where more weapons are useful is inherently more interesting to play because it gives players more options as to how to go about playing.
>
> Its not interesting when i get sworded in the face by a camper.
> Its not interesting when someone shotguns me when i walk past a door.
> Its not interesting when someone 6 shots me with a concussion rifle.
>
> If anything these pre-determined battles make it MUCH more boring and less chance of surprising gameplay.
It’s not interesting when I am killed by a DMR at close range while camping.
It’s not interesting when I am killed by a DMR in mid range while I walk past a door.
It’s not interesting when I am killed by a DMR with 5 shots at long range.
It’s not interesting when I am killed by a DMR while driving a vehicle.
If anything, those gametype settings that encourage those pre-determined battles make matches much more boring and less surprising.
I mean no ill will. What one person prefers another person will not support. Please keep that in mind during your future responses. Thank you!
-Always Hope
^ i agree with most but the NB gametypes do not encourage predetermined battles because like 95% of the time anyone who has a power weapon has a dmr/pistol also so it puts them at the same advantage therefor making it a toss up fight and who ever out plays the other will win.
Balance is important because there are other weapons to be used besides the Magnum/NR/DMR.
Those weapons are placed on the maps with the intent to be used. Having an unbalanced sandbox while still giving that choice means it’s just an illusion and an insult.
Removing the weaker elements of the sandbox is one way to achieve balance, but I’m not interested in one gun gameplay.
@ spartan
I have to say that thread is very good but it seems to me your thread only realy demands balance in the starting weapon which is what i support.
I see what you mean by it requiring skill to use a lesser weapon such as an AR against say a sniper, but that doesnt mean that an AR starting against 4 ppl with rockets is a more competitive scene just because its harder. Which is why a more dominant starting weapon should be the choice.
Why are we pretending dmr/pistol can beat sniper,rockets, sword, shotty at theyre respective ranges? They cant… They effectively act like the ce 3 shot pistol. It gives you a chance to beat them without overpowering them.
People love to say Ce was their favorite game out of all the halos but when stuff starts working like Ce did people freak out. What a shame…
> Balance is important because there are other weapons to be used besides the Magnum/NR/DMR.
>
> Those weapons are placed on the maps with the intent to be used. Having an unbalanced sandbox while Yoink!ill giving that choice means it’s just an illusion and an insult.
>
> Removing the weaker elements of the sandbox is one way to achieve balance, but I’m not interested in one gun gameplay.
OK! i got an idea! ok it will be a pink assault rifle right? and it will fire fluffy bunnies! AND lets make it super weak so we have to nerf the entire sandbox around it even if its worse for gameplay just to make it usable! Because EVERY gun has to be super usable!!!@@
/sarcasm
> Why are we pretending dmr/pistol can beat sniper,rockets, sword, shotty at theyre respective ranges? They cant… They effectively act like the ce 3 shot pistol. It gives you a chance to beat them without overpowering them.
>
> People love to say Ce was their favorite game out of all the halos but when stuff starts working like Ce did people freak out. What a shame…
It can if they mess up. Used to rockets for example, if u messed up on first rocket, o well! even if the other DMR perfectly paces and hits every shots you can still have time to shoot 2 rockets and maybe even switch to another weapon to clean up the kill. Now you have time to fire one rocket if the other person is even remotely skilled with dmr/pistol. Some people are bad, but not bad enough to miss 2 rockets and a cleanup shot.
To me, requiring a skilled play from a power weapon isnt too much to ask to make it an actual power weapon.
And it is possible to kill sniper/rockets/sword/shotty with a 4sk pistol kill, which makes it balanced.
Im not very good at making my statements tie together so here it is in a nutshell. Starting weapons should be able to do a big play (a 4sk kill for example) against a power weapon that requires a less skilled but still skillful play (2 body shot from sniper for example) to get the same reaction.
> Why are we pretending dmr/pistol can beat sniper,rockets, sword, shotty at theyre respective ranges? They cant… They effectively act like the ce 3 shot pistol. It gives you a chance to beat them without overpowering them.
>
> People love to say Ce was their favorite game out of all the halos but when stuff starts working like Ce did people freak out. What a shame…
The ONLY weapon that will overpower a ZB DMR/pistol combo is rockets at close range. Sniping will have to become EXTREMELY conservative to avoid death. Shotty’s/sword will only beat a skilled DMR if that person is hiding in a corner and the other player doesn’t see them.
If your team had the lead, would you bother pushing for power weapons, knowing that the other team will only manage to get 2-3 kills with them? Doubt it. In other words, map movement goes out the door.
> > Why are we pretending dmr/pistol can beat sniper,rockets, sword, shotty at theyre respective ranges? They cant… They effectively act like the ce 3 shot pistol. It gives you a chance to beat them without overpowering them.
> >
> > People love to say Ce was their favorite game out of all the halos but when stuff starts working like Ce did people freak out. What a shame…
>
> The ONLY weapon that will overpower a ZB DMR/pistol combo is rockets at close range. Sniping will have to become EXTREMELY conservative to avoid death. Shotty’s/sword will only beat a skilled DMR if that person is hiding in a corner and the other player doesn’t see them.
>
> If your team had the lead, would you bother pushing for power weapons, knowing that the other team will only manage to get 2-3 kills with them? Doubt it. In other words, map movement goes out the door.
I don’t see a problem with the Sniper in zero bloom gametypes. I can said this after playing many custom games with DMR and Sniper as starting weapons. With Zero bloom Sniper is still one headshot kill or two body shot kill, it still kills faster than a DMR. A skilled sniper can beat a DMR user.
In my customs people either sniped when the target hadn’t noticed them or if the enemy had noticed them, they put one shot with the Sniper and finished the kill with a DMR headshot. Sniper is still capable at beating a bunch of DMR users. The difference to how it previously was is that now the DMR users have a chance to beat the Sniper.
When thinking about the small sandbox of DMR, pistol, and the power weapons, it’s clear that zero bloom makes this sandbox more balanced. If you miss a rocket, the opponent has a chance to kill you. If you miss a Sniper shot, the opponent has a chance to kill you. If you miss a Sword lunge, the opponent has chance to kill you. If you miss a Shotgun shot, the opponent has chance to kill you.
DMR and Pistol with zero bloom go back to the idea that spawn weapons should have at least a small chance against power weapons. Only when we apply zero bloom to the sandbox of niche weapons, do they become over powered. But that isn’t because DMR or Pistol are too powerful, but that the niche weapons are too weak. When applied to pwoer weapons, it’s really your fault if you lose to a DMR when you have a Sniper or Rockets.
> ^ i agree with most but the NB gametypes do not encourage predetermined battles because like 95% of the time anyone who has a power weapon has a dmr/pistol also so it puts them at the same advantage therefor making it a toss up fight and who ever out plays the other will win.
It appears as though we are not on the same page. My responses were in regards to variety and balance. During the zero-bloom (NB) gametype, you will see the usage of three weapons above all others in the sandbox. 343 Industries specifically created the gametype to support those items. As such, the predetermined battles I am referring to are referencing the fact that everyone will have either a DMR, Magnum, or Needle Rifle on them at all times. Thus, every encounter boils down to someone using those three weapons.
> @ spartan
>
> I have to say that thread is very good but it seems to me your thread only realy demands balance in the starting weapon which is what i support.
In a balanced sandbox, every single weapon works, and they work well. Not one item is overpowered or underpowered. I do not merely demand balance for the starting weapons. That is entirely too one-sided. What I and other like-minded individuals propose, is for future Halo sandboxes to reflect the balance found in Halo: CE, yet vastly expanded and improved. Every weapon should be very effective in its area of expertise. This is not the type of gameplay we have in Reach’s current setup.
> I see what you mean by it requiring skill to use a lesser weapon such as an AR against say a sniper, but that doesnt mean that an AR starting against 4 ppl with rockets is a more competitive scene just because its harder. Which is why a more dominant starting weapon should be the choice.
When did I ever say that? I’m not sure I understand what you are aiming for here.
-Always Hope
> ZB is not balanced. RoF cap is necessary for those 2 weapons.
>
> The pistol especially.
We know that at least the pistol can have an RoF cap with the Anniversary gametype, and the NR will be fine as long as it isn’t placed as an off spawn/close to spawn weapon before Phase 2 in Invasion.