Why flinch is a good thing

Games Other Halo
1

Flinch was a good decision by 343 to add to halo. Is see lots of people bashing it but let me explain why it’s a good thing.

-weapons have different fire rates: some weapons shoot slower and hit harder, like the dmr and some shoot faster for lower damage per shot, like the carbine. The dmr causes more flinch per shot over the carbine but the carbine can hit you with more shots overall thus the amount of flinch is equal. With descoping the carbine would suddenly have a massive edge over the dmr due to fire rate causing big issues. There is no way you could ever hope to beat a decent carbiner in a scoped fight.

Different red reticule ranges: a long range gun such as a dmr or a lightrifle could completely shut down a midranged weapon like a BR with descoping in certain situations. If I had a red reticule with my dmr on a guy with a BR who needed to scope in order to get his, he wouldn’t stand a chance. I could pound he out of scope everytime he tried with some clean RR shots forcing him to try and take me with a blue scope and no aim assist at all. With flinch he can at least put up a fight, although admittedly would still be at a disadvantage in such an engagement.

-automatics: the AR would be a more effective gun than the BR outside the BR’s unscoped RRR. It would be easy to knock a BR out of scope and be able to nip it to death. However non hitscan storm rifles and suppressors could not take advantage. Hardly fair. Imagine how bad the saw would be.

Descoping worked in previous halos due to the one gun game aspect of it. Everyone had a dmr, or prior to reach, everyone had a BR. Since all the guns are the same descope worked fine. In halo 4 it would cause many strange imbalances such as the one I listed however.

Flinch isn’t so bad either. It takes plenty of skill actually. A player must react fast an correct his aim no matter which way his reticul may flinch. Not an easy task. Plus isn’t it nice not having to scope 3 or 4 times? It also gives certain controller schemes a distinct advantage. The one where zoom is on the left trigger, (fish stick I think) has the edge over default, as clicking on your left thumbstick a few times quickly can compromise your aim.

If you disagree that’s fine, infact I welcome it. Let’s have a reasonable level headed debate.

2

People hate it because of snipers. It doesn’t help that with the extreme amount of aim assist snipers pretty much have auto-aim.

3

> People hate it because of snipers. It doesn’t help that with the extreme amount of aim assist snipers pretty much have auto-aim.

Well, if the UNSC Sniper Rifle had the same kick and no-scope inaccuracy as the Binary Rifle I’d imagine quite a great deal of tears would flood the forum. Who wants to clean that mess up? Certainly not I.

4

Flinch is awful with snipers. Players with no skill just use that promethean wall hack, line up a shot on you, and even though you are pounding bullets into them they can stay scoped in and get a lucky skill on you after missing the first shot. It’s just lame because in past Halos only good snipers could kill you while being shot at.

5

Flinch kills halo for these simple reasons:

  1. Most precision weapons can reach to about 1/3 to well over a whole map, what this means is anyone that is A. pulling down on the stick will maintain their target even while being fired upon (this kills the dynamic of finding cover and finding a new angle) B. not using Stability puts a player at moderate disadvantage .vs someone that is

  2. Flinch makes double taps with sniper rifles too easy, prior to Halo 4 using the sniper meant that you had to kill your opponent BEFORE they started firing at you, descope prevented snipers from getting easy double taps on a target as well as giving his victim a chance to fight back. (This also serves as punishment for not getting a headshot and allowing your target to get a bead on you)

  3. Flinch eliminates the need to move, again with past Halo titles, descope made combat more movement based, if you were peppering your target from afar scoped in and your target finds cover and begins firing back, you couldn’t sit there and continue shooting, once you were descoped you were at a disadvantage and had to move to find a better angle, This made long range encounters rather difficult which made players move in close but also added a layer of tactical movement. Flinch just makes it easier to stay in one spot and fire at the enemy with out thinking.

  4. This one is what really bothers me, flinch has turned Halo into a “who ever sees who first wins” kind of game more or less, I know that it isn’t always true, but in the general case if you’re spotted at range before you can identify the shooter chances are if you aren’t 3 seconds sprinting distance to put something between you and the shooter you’re dead, with descope if you’re able to find the shooter quick enough you can shoot him/her out of their zoom and fight back, causing them to retreat or even kill them.

Flinch distorts the pacing of the game, I’d much rather have descope back and I’m sure a good chunk of the community would agree.

6

Not like flinch is destroyed by the Rogues specializations perk that stables your gun fire while being shot at. Also, snipers on cqc maps is terrible and overpowered. It wouldn’t be much of a problem with snipers if they didn’t have great auto-aim assist and a perk that stabilizes them in the first place.

7

I agree that flinch with snipers can be a bit lame, but its not as bad as some make it seem; sniping while you are being flinched is not an easy thing to do for the most part and getting a headshot is difficult.

8

> I agree that flinch with snipers can be a bit lame, but its not as bad as some make it seem; sniping while you are being flinched is not an easy thing to do for the most part and getting a headshot is difficult.

It is completely easy and not difficult with the perk that stabilizes you when being shot at. Especially not difficult in Close Quarters Combat.

9

Remove flinch with snipers and lower the aim assist. Flinch is good for the precision rifles. With out it the light rifle would be garbage.

10

Pretty much all of your points are reasons why I believe that descoping should be reintroduced. Just you portrayed them as being negatives, when I believe them to be positives.

If ARs can knock a BR out of scope and as such lay down suppressive fire that is a good thing. It helps balance Automatics. It helps balance the scoping mechanic in general.

If the Carbine has a method to combat weapons with superior scoped ranges that is a good thing. The DMR/LR would still have the advantage, particularly outside the RRR but a skilled Cb users would still have a chance. That sounds like a good combat system to me.

We have played 2 games that has displayed that the Carbine is balanced perfectly fine with the BR despite descoping and a superior ROF. ROF is the Carbines perk. A reason to pick it over a BR with a superior clip size, melee kill time and team shot. I don’t believe ROF would make it OP.

Cross map killing is extremely easy in Halo 4, easier than any other Halo game. I am of the opinion range combat has to be balanced much better in any future Halo game. Descope, Recoil, bullet trails, reduced RRR, projectile bullets… It needs to be a skill.

11

> Flinch was a good decision by 343 to add to halo. Is see lots of people bashing it but let me explain why it’s a good thing.
>
> -weapons have different fire rates: some weapons shoot slower and hit harder, like the dmr and some shoot faster for lower damage per shot, like the carbine. The dmr causes more flinch per shot over the carbine but the carbine can hit you with more shots overall thus the amount of flinch is equal. With descoping the carbine would suddenly have a massive edge over the dmr due to fire rate causing big issues. There is no way you could ever hope to beat a decent carbiner in a scoped fight.

Except a DMR has quite a bit more range than the carbine, does more damage per shot, and is more accurate overall?

Even with De-Scope a DMR would be more useful on Ragnarok than a Carbine. The Carbine simply isn’t accurate enough to combat at that range. Likewise, the Carbine would be more effective in close range for the reason of having faster shots and being able to pump the DMR out of scope.

> Different red reticule ranges: a long range gun such as a dmr or a lightrifle could completely shut down a midranged weapon like a BR with descoping in certain situations. If I had a red reticule with my dmr on a guy with a BR who needed to scope in order to get his, he wouldn’t stand a chance. I could pound he out of scope everytime he tried with some clean RR shots forcing him to try and take me with a blue scope and no aim assist at all. With flinch he can at least put up a fight, although admittedly would still be at a disadvantage in such an engagement.

As they should. The DMR and Lightrifle are long ranged weapons, so of course they’d be more effective at long range.

Also,t he guy with the BR would have a chance. All he has to do is fire one shot and unscope you. Once that’s done he can either scope in or run, and you have to scope in before continuing to fire on him. This strategy is impossible with flinch, as he will never be able to gain the advantage or level the field.

> -automatics: the AR would be a more effective gun than the BR outside the BR’s unscoped RRR. It would be easy to knock a BR out of scope and be able to nip it to death. However non hitscan storm rifles and suppressors could not take advantage. Hardly fair. Imagine how bad the saw would be.

You’re forgetting that the AR has terrible accuracy, no headshot damage, and all the BR player would have to do is close the distance a little bit, giving them a red reticule and allowing them to more easily deal with the AR user.

De-scope makes the AR more effective, but it in no way makes it more accurate or more powerful. It won’t get a kill at that range.

As for the SAW, the weapon is pretty OP already. There aren’t any disadvantages to using the SAW on small maps. For a Squad Automatic Weapon (which is what SAW stands for) it certianly doesn’t need a squad to support it.

> Descoping worked in previous halos due to the one gun game aspect of it. Everyone had a dmr, or prior to reach, everyone had a BR. Since all the guns are the same descope worked fine. In halo 4 it would cause many strange imbalances such as the one I listed however.

Imbalances that can all be fixed.

> Flinch isn’t so bad either. It takes plenty of skill actually. A player must react fast an correct his aim no matter which way his reticul may flinch.

Considering the reticule flinchs up at a rate far beyond the normal turn speed, I don’t think it’s possible to re-adjust until the reticule has slowed down.

You also can’t contol which direction you flinch, when you flinch, or how much you flinch. A sniper will send you higher than a DMR, just as a DMR will send you higher than an AR. The sniper will have more flinch than the DMR when shot, the DMR will have more than the BR

That’s just my take on it though.

12

> Flinch kills halo for these simple reasons:
> 1. Most precision weapons can reach to about 1/3 to well over a whole map, what this means is anyone that is A. pulling down on the stick will maintain their target even while being fired upon (this kills the dynamic of finding cover and finding a new angle) B. not using Stability puts a player at moderate disadvantage .vs someone that is
>
> 2. Flinch makes double taps with sniper rifles too easy, prior to Halo 4 using the sniper meant that you had to kill your opponent BEFORE they started firing at you, descope prevented snipers from getting easy double taps on a target as well as giving his victim a chance to fight back. (This also serves as punishment for not getting a headshot and allowing your target to get a bead on you)
>
> 3. Flinch eliminates the need to move, again with past Halo titles, descope made combat more movement based, if you were peppering your target from afar scoped in and your target finds cover and begins firing back, you couldn’t sit there and continue shooting, once you were descoped you were at a disadvantage and had to move to find a better angle, This made long range encounters rather difficult which made players move in close but also added a layer of tactical movement. Flinch just makes it easier to stay in one spot and fire at the enemy with out thinking.
>
> 4. This one is what really bothers me, flinch has turned Halo into a “who ever sees who first wins” kind of game more or less, I know that it isn’t always true, but in the general case if you’re spotted at range before you can identify the shooter chances are if you aren’t 3 seconds sprinting distance to put something between you and the shooter you’re dead, with descope if you’re able to find the shooter quick enough you can shoot him/her out of their zoom and fight back, causing them to retreat or even kill them.
>
> Flinch distorts the pacing of the game, I’d much rather have descope back and I’m sure a good chunk of the community would agree.

Dude… Everything I ever wanted to say about flinch in halo just laid out in front of me. YES… YES!!!

13

> I agree that flinch with snipers can be a bit lame, but its not as bad as some make it seem; sniping while you are being flinched is not an easy thing to do for the most part and getting a headshot is difficult.

You’re not considering the fact that most of the people who play this game start out every game WITH a sniper rifle. The DMR is just about as efficient as a sniper, especially with team shot. Call that tactics, but considering how Halo used to play, where long range engagements would be broken by descope which encouraged both teams to reposition as well as work together, this is completely broken. I can’t tell you have many times I have been killed by kids just SITTING with AC and a DMR. Whenever I kitty out and play that way, AC with a loadout sniper, I get angry at how easily other plays are killing me when they play like that. So now that there is the super long range, often invisible, and now easily dug in player as a standard in Halo, flinch fits in, but they had to break the original game to make that happen. And I even enjoy infinity, but I don’t consider it Halo gameplay. It’s simply not.

And in reference to the carbine vs DMR scenario you posted, that means that the DMR user just needs to take better cover, and use their corners to pop shots while preparing a closer ranged weapon for if/when the carbine used decides to charge. THAT is much more intense and interesting than one player spamming from super long range and getting slightly thrown off when one or two green bolts from the carbine make it to their target. That is a tactical and skill based encounter with decisions, where as now players just pitch tents and spam triggers.

14

Flinch is horrific, it turns combat into a ‘who shoots first’ scenario.

It just makes the game too easy.

I’m honestly shocked that anyone actually likes flinch!

15

Flinch is okay. Descope is better.

See, both actually accomplish the same task: they make it more difficult to aim while taking damage. Flinch accomplishes this by moving your reticle, and descope accomplishes this by making it difficult for you to see your target and fine-tune your shot.

In practice, using the Sniper Rifle as an example, with flinch, if I’m taking damage, a slight adjustment to my reticle will allow me to hit my target. If I can’t get the shot, I’ll just let my shields recharge and try again. With descope, I basically have to try to “Snapshot” from across the map. If I can’t get the shot, I need to move into a better position, because I’m useless while pinned down here.

In this way, descope is more disadvantageous to long-range weapons, so it encourages and rewards movement.

I would prefer that flinch be removed and descope added, but I see no reason why both can’t stay. You descope when scoped, and you flinch when descoped.

16

> weapons have different fire rates

When it comes to descope, nothing after the first hit matters. The first one to get hit is the first one to get shot out of scope. The rate of fire has no effect on this unless players miss shots and it comes down to who can squeeze out the following shot the fastest. But that’s the trade off between the Carbine and DMR: DMR is slower and individual misses cost more, but it has more damage potential; Carbine is faster, but requires more shots to kill.

Nonetheless, flinch doesn’t really prevent the Carbine from beating the DMR in every scoped encounter, mainly because the DMR is better than the Carbine in the first place. If we assume that both players are as precise, one has a Carbine and another has a DMR, with descope it will most likely become an unscoped encounter. That, or the other player is forced to reatreat. If both are highly accurate, it’s a matter of who shoots first. Only if both are noticeable inaccurate will the Carbine user have the upper hand because they can squeeze out more shots. But it’s a flaw of the DMR user’s own accuracy, not any fundamental imbalance in the game.

> Different red reticule ranges

In a long range encounter, any weapon with a sufficient range can nearly completely shut down any other weapon. It doesn’t matter if it’s BR vs DMR, DMR vs DMR, BR vs Sniper, or any other combination of precision weapons. As long as the player who shoots their opponent out of scope can fire another shot before the opponent can get back to scope and correct their aim, the player will win. For example, BR versus Sniper:

The BR user sees the sniper slightly earlier, both scope their weapon and aim at each other. The BR user shoots earlier (because they were faster) and shoots the sniper out of scope. The sniper is shot out of scope, their aim is thrown off, they need to do the whole process all over again. However, by the time the sniper rescopes, they are hit by another BR shot. Thus the sniper is forced to either retreat or fire unscoped.

It doesn’t really make a difference which two weapons we put into that scenario. With descope, the unscoped player is always at a disadvantage and can’t return back to scope. That is, of course, unless there is a weapon that has a ridiculously long unscoped red reticle range, which not even the DMR has. To be precise, the BR, if it has minor spread, would actually have better chances firing unscoped because it only needs to hit one shot. As all shots land into slightly different parts of the reticle, the chances of descoping the opponent are marginally better than with other weapons.

> automatics

It depends on the range of the AR. The range and damage potential of the AR can be adjusted for any purposes. Therefore if the AR did indeed have an advantage over the BR outside the BR’s unscoped red reticle range, it would not be a problem caused by descope and fixed by flinch, but a problem in the balance of the weapons that could easily be tweaked so that the AR doesn’t gain an advantage. It’s not a good defense for flinch.

> Descoping worked in previous halos due to the one gun game aspect of it. Everyone had a dmr, or prior to reach, everyone had a BR. Since all the guns are the same descope worked fine. In halo 4 it would cause many strange imbalances such as the one I listed however.

None of the imbalances listed are something that would be a problem with descope. The first and the second aren’t imbalances to begin with, and the third is a property of the weapon sandbox, not a fundamental flaw in descope mechanic that would need flinch to work.

> Flinch isn’t so bad either. It takes plenty of skill actually. A player must react fast an correct his aim no matter which way his reticul may flinch. Not an easy task. Plus isn’t it nice not having to scope 3 or 4 times? It also gives certain controller schemes a distinct advantage. The one where zoom is on the left trigger, (fish stick I think) has the edge over default, as clicking on your left thumbstick a few times quickly can compromise your aim.

Flinch is inconsistent. That’s not to say you can’t aim at all while flinching, but you are not in control of your reticle. Why descope is fundamentally better is that you can opt not to shoot scoped – after you have been knocked out of scope, of course – and therefore be in full control of your aim. When it comes to flinch, your only option is to have your reticle be thrown around the center of your screen. the bottom line is: descope gives you more control over your aim, which is optimal.

17

> Flinch isn’t so bad either. It takes plenty of skill actually. A player must react fast an correct his aim no matter which way his reticul may flinch.

Almost anything takes a certain amount of skill, but that doesn’t say much to support flinch.

Descope takes a hell of a lot more skill than flinch does, so using skill to argue for flinch in favour of descope isn’t the most convincing argument.

> Not an easy task. Plus isn’t it nice not having to scope 3 or 4 times?

Nope, not for players that actually appreciated the game mechanics of Halo before Halo 4.

I actually liked having to work around descope in previous Halo’s, as did many others. Not everyone likes things based on how easy they make the game.

18

Only on snipers is it a huge issue. Granted, I use the sniper a lot, but I did back in Reach and 3 as well. It lowers the skill of the weapon making it more accessible to players who probably shouldn’t be picking it up in the first place.

19

What if both yes both were in halo 4? Initially a person would flinch but after taking a certain amount of damage they would be descoped. This would solve the issue of high fire rate guns having an unfair advantage, remove the annoyance of having to zoom again so frequently, and guns like the light rifle wouldn’t get a huge slap to the face, among many other problems of a descope only game.

Yet we would still have the descoping!

20

> What if both yes both were in halo 4? Initially a person would flinch but after taking a certain amount of damage they would be descoped. This would solve the issue of high fire rate guns having an unfair advantage, remove the annoyance of having to zoom again so frequently, and guns like the light rifle wouldn’t get a huge slap to the face, among many other problems of a descope only game.
>
> Yet we would still have the descoping!

Or snipers get descope, everything else gets flinch? Or depending on range the gun gets flinch or descope.