Why Dualwielding Doesnt Break the Golden Triangle!

Games Halo 5: Guardians
1

Hello everybody. So there have been a lot of discussions since Halo 5’s release concerning its new movement abilities and how the affect the game. And many of its detractors have used an argument that these movement mechanics break the golden triangle of the game. For example when you sprint you put your gun down and you can’t shoot, perform melee attacks, or throw grenades.This is all true, but a counter argument that I often see to this is that dual wielding did the same thing. When you dualwield you cant throw grenades and meleeing causes you to drop your weapon thus discouraging you from doing so.So at face value it seems like a pretty good argument, but it in actuality has almost no similarities to abilities currently affecting the game.

Let’s look at some things that sprint changes in Halo. It changes map design in order to accommodate the new mobility options.Here is a quote by 343 concerning this along with its source article: Again, game mechanics have a direct bearing. In Halo 3, sprinting was impossible. In Halo: Reach, sprinting was a selectable armor ability. In Halo 4, everyone’s at it, and the maps have grown to compensate.Source*
* It also has a direct impact on the weapon sandbox. Just take a look at Halo 5’s automatics. They are way more powerful and kill much faster and at longer ranges than before. This is due to players being more elusive and having more options to run away. You can even look at things like grenades and see how they bounce much further than before and you could make a strong case this is to coincide with the rest of the changes.

Those are in addition to the gigantic change that Sprint separates the movement from combat. ( Each ability has their own impact but I just used sprint as the example because of its relatability )The thing is Dualwielding doesn’t do any of these things, or at least it doesn’t have to.It has absolutely no bearing on a games overall map design, and if done properly can exist without impacting your sandbox in any meaningful way. For instance you can design your weapons however you want to, and build your dual weapons around that. Essentially dualwieldable weapons exist within their own sandbox. They are weapons that are weak on their own, but can be combined with other dual weapons for unique combinations at the cost of some of your basic functions. ( Please note that if you are not careful you can 100% negatively impact your sandbox and I’ll address some of those things in this thread)

And I realize I haven’t addressed the big issue, and that’s its disruption of the golden triangle, but there was really only one instance where this definitively happened and that was when Halo 2 was released with SMG starts. Now because the SMG was dualwieldable, but it was also your starting weapon/primary. This changed the game. Because you basically HAD to dualwield and this impacted the golden triangle. But that wasn’t because of dual wielding itself, but rather its implementation at that time.

When the BR became the primary it fixed this issue. And in Halo 3 it was rectified with the return of the AR which of course could not be dualwielded.But the point remains…when you dualwield, you cant use grenades or melee…just like sprint. But heres the main point.

Sprint is a basic fundamental base ability, while Dualwielding is DEPENDENT on an interaction.
Dualwielding requires you to interact with specific components on the map. You do not spawn with 2 guns, it isn’t an ever present ability that has to be constantly accounted for. Because it is dependent on interaction it can therefore be controlled.For example say you are designing a multiplayer map. And in the design you think " Hmm, Dual weapons feel really bad here" Maybe it’s too cramped for them, or they just feel like they hurt the balance of the map. Because they require an INTERACTION they can be controlled, and you can just not put dual weapons on the map that you feel hurts the game. Insert Sprint in to this scenario. " Wow Sprint feels really bad with this map" Oh that sucks…change your map. Because sprint is a base ability. It is always present. It has to be accounted for at all times.All of the things that Dualwielding changes can be 100% controllable. You can implement dual wielding in to your game and still design that game however you want. With abilities like sprint, you have to design your game around it. You absolutely have to make significant adjustments for it or it will effect your experience in a completely different set of ways.And it is because of this dependency on controllable interactions that separates dual wielding from " base mechanics".

Interactions have been in Halo since CE and they all stripped your ability to throw grenades, or melee. or use the “golden triangle”. When you INTERACT with a vehicle, your functionality changes. When you interact with a turret, your functionality changes. When you hold a heavy weapon like the missile pod your functionality changes. When you Dualwield…your functionality changes. All of these options prohibit your ability to throw grenades, melee. But they are also all interactions. They can all be controlled. This aspect of their implementation makes them “additions” to that core base gameplay, and not inherent changes. They can all be implemented in ways that don’t compromise your vision. Because you control them, you can design them around your experience. Because the abilities in Halo 5 are inherent base abilities that are present during every moment of the game… Your experience has to be designed around them.

Anyway that’s my little essay! I appreciate everyone who took a look and please remember these things do NOT necessarily mean that Halo 5 is bad or that its additions are bad. Any opinions on that are of course subjective and you may very well like these new base abilities and the changes they cause. And you may very well hate dualwielding and think its a redundant unnecessary mechanic. Both with completely justifiable reasons. But those reasons are not the point of this thread.This forum post was just created to highlight the fact that they are in fact different, and DO NOT change the game in the same ways, and hopefully it gives people some insight on to why some players are OK with things like dual wielding, but not necessarily some of the newer changes.

Thanks guys and be respectful!

-Fav

2

Did they let you repost this? If not then this will get locked.

3

Dual wielding ruins weapon balance. Due to the fact that damage output from each weapon would be cut to compensate for the fact that you can wield 2 of them. Which discourages people from picking them up as a standalone weapon. I could care less about the stupid golden triangle that imho was still broken via dual wielding. It was a concept and wasn’t held through the rest of the games. Let it die.

> 2533274879407634;2:
> Did they let you repost this? If not then this will get locked.

RuthlessSkate94, there was another post like this? Why did they lock it if you don’t mind me asking ya.

4

> 2533274796951708;3:
> Dual wielding ruins weapon balance. Due to the fact that damage output from each weapon would be cut to compensate for the fact that you can wield 2 of them. Which discourages people from picking them up as a standalone weapon. I could care less about the stupid golden triangle that imho was still broken via dual wielding. It was a concept and wasn’t held through the rest of the games. Let it die.
>
>
>
>
> > 2533274879407634;2:
> > Did they let you repost this? If not then this will get locked.
>
>
> RuthlessSkate94, there was another post like this? Why did they lock it if you don’t mind me asking ya.

They didn’t say why but I assume it’s because it’s a golden triangle thread, those tend to get locked.

5

Dual Wielding doesn’t have to break the golden triangle. It was a gimmick at best that will ruin the sandbox.

6

> 2533274879407634;4:
> > 2533274796951708;3:
> > Dual wielding ruins weapon balance. Due to the fact that damage output from each weapon would be cut to compensate for the fact that you can wield 2 of them. Which discourages people from picking them up as a standalone weapon. I could care less about the stupid golden triangle that imho was still broken via dual wielding. It was a concept and wasn’t held through the rest of the games. Let it die.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > 2533274879407634;2:
> > > Did they let you repost this? If not then this will get locked.
> >
> >
> > RuthlessSkate94, there was another post like this? Why did they lock it if you don’t mind me asking ya.
>
>
> They didn’t say why but I assume it’s because it’s a golden triangle thread, those tend to get locked.

I wonder if they want it in the matchmaking and discussion thread as the general thread doesn’t seem to be a good place for this convo. However very odd.

7

What if the base movement speed was bumped up and the maps were smaller but stint stayed? This would make sprinting less common just like how halo 3 handled dual wielding. We’ve all had those times in halo 3 where we just wanted to sprint to our destination, but if 343 incorporates this, then sprint wouldn’t be used most of the time but it would still be there for those instances where you don’t want to just walk out in the open.

8

Much love for you FAYVN, you always say what you want to say in a perfect way, you don’t get salty at others for different opinions or anything, and great job on this forum post.

9

I like you Fayvn, but Duelwielding was still pretty bad on it’s own. I understand that’s not the point you are trying to make, however.

Either way, glad DW is gone, and hopefully sprint follows.

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> 2533274970658419;9:
> > 2533274796951708;6:
> > > 2533274879407634;4:
> > > > 2533274796951708;3:
> > > > Dual wielding ruins weapon balance. Due to the fact that damage output from each weapon would be cut to compensate for the fact that you can wield 2 of them. Which discourages people from picking them up as a standalone weapon. I could care less about the stupid golden triangle that imho was still broken via dual wielding. It was a concept and wasn’t held through the rest of the games. Let it die.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > 2533274879407634;2:
> > > > > Did they let you repost this? If not then this will get locked.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > RuthlessSkate94, there was another post like this? Why did they lock it if you don’t mind me asking ya.
> > >
> > >
> > > They didn’t say why but I assume it’s because it’s a golden triangle thread, those tend to get locked.
> >
> >
> > I wonder if they want it in the matchmaking and discussion thread as the general thread doesn’t seem to be a good place for this convo. However very odd.
>
>
>
> I like you Fayvn, but Duelwielding was still pretty bad on it’s own. I understand that’s not the point you are trying to make, however.
>
> Either way, glad DW is gone, and hopefully sprint follows.

They let me repost it.

And it doesn’t have to do anything to your sandbox unless you let it which was my point.

You can independently balance weapons whether they are separate or paired.

The point is its controllable. If you remove them, the game doesn’t break is basically what I’m saying.

For people who think they are a gimmick that may be true, but the point of the post is to compare their level of change compared to what we have now

11

> 2533274810305245;1:
> Hello everybody. So there have been a lot of discussions since Halo 5’s release concerning its new movement abilities and how the affect the game. And many of its detractors have used an argument that these movement mechanics break the golden triangle of the game. For example when you sprint you put your gun down and you can’t shoot, perform melee attacks, or throw grenades.This is all true, but a counter argument that I often see to this is that dual wielding did the same thing. When you dualwield you cant throw grenades and meleeing causes you to drop your weapon thus discouraging you from doing so.So at face value it seems like a pretty good argument, but it in actuality has almost no similarities to abilities currently affecting the game.
>
> Let’s look at some things that sprint changes in Halo. It changes map design in order to accommodate the new mobility options.Here is a quote by 343 concerning this along with its source article: Again, game mechanics have a direct bearing. In Halo 3, sprinting was impossible. In Halo: Reach, sprinting was a selectable armor ability. In Halo 4, everyone’s at it, and the maps have grown to compensate.Source
> It also has a direct impact on the weapon sandbox. Just take a look at Halo 5’s automatics. They are way more powerful and kill much faster and at longer ranges than before. This is due to players being more elusive and having more options to run away. You can even look at things like grenades and see how they bounce much further than before and you could make a strong case this is to coincide with the rest of the changes.
>
> Those are in addition to the gigantic change that Sprint separates the movement from combat. ( Each ability has their own impact but I just used sprint as the example because of its relatability )The thing is Dualwielding doesn’t do any of these things, or at least it doesn’t have to.It has absolutely no bearing on a games overall map design, and if done properly can exist without impacting your sandbox in any meaningful way. For instance you can design your weapons however you want to, and build your dual weapons around that. Essentially dualwieldable weapons exist within their own sandbox. They are weapons that are weak on their own, but can be combined with other dual weapons for unique combinations at the cost of some of your basic functions. ( Please note that if you are not careful you can 100% negatively impact your sandbox and I’ll address some of those things in this thread)
>
> And I realize I haven’t addressed the big issue, and that’s its disruption of the golden triangle, but there was really only one instance where this definitively happened and that was when Halo 2 was released with SMG starts. Now because the SMG was dualwieldable, but it was also your starting weapon/primary. This changed the game. Because you basically HAD to dualwield and this impacted the golden triangle. But that wasn’t because of dual wielding itself, but rather its implementation at that time.
>
> When the BR became the primary it fixed this issue. And in Halo 3 it was rectified with the return of the AR which of course could not be dualwielded.But the point remains…when you dualwield, you cant use grenades or melee…just like sprint. But heres the main point.
>
> Sprint is a basic fundamental base ability, while Dualwielding is DEPENDENT on an interaction.
> Dualwielding requires you to interact with specific components on the map. You do not spawn with 2 guns, it isn’t an ever present ability that has to be constantly accounted for. Because it is dependent on interaction it can therefore be controlled.For example say you are designing a multiplayer map. And in the design you think " Hmm, Dual weapons feel really bad here" Maybe it’s too cramped for them, or they just feel like they hurt the balance of the map. Because they require an INTERACTION they can be controlled, and you can just not put dual weapons on the map that you feel hurts the game. Insert Sprint in to this scenario. " Wow Sprint feels really bad with this map" Oh that sucks…change your map. Because sprint is a base ability. It is always present. It has to be accounted for at all times.All of the things that Dualwielding changes can be 100% controllable. You can implement dual wielding in to your game and still design that game however you want. With abilities like sprint, you have to design your game around it. You absolutely have to make significant adjustments for it or it will effect your experience in a completely different set of ways.And it is because of this dependency on controllable interactions that separates dual wielding from " base mechanics".
>
> Interactions have been in Halo since CE and they all stripped your ability to throw grenades, or melee. or use the “golden triangle”. When you INTERACT with a vehicle, your functionality changes. When you interact with a turret, your functionality changes. When you hold a heavy weapon like the missile pod your functionality changes. When you Dualwield…your functionality changes. All of these options prohibit your ability to throw grenades, melee. But they are also all interactions. They can all be controlled. This aspect of their implementation makes them “additions” to that core base gameplay, and not inherent changes. They can all be implemented in ways that don’t compromise your vision. Because you control them, you can design them around your experience. Because the abilities in Halo 5 are inherent base abilities that are present during every moment of the game… Your experience has to be designed around them.
>
> Anyway that’s my little essay! I appreciate everyone who took a look and please remember these things do NOT necessarily mean that Halo 5 is bad or that its additions are bad. Any opinions on that are of course subjective and you may very well like these new base abilities and the changes they cause. And you may very well hate dualwielding and think its a redundant unnecessary mechanic. Both with completely justifiable reasons. But those reasons are not the point of this thread.This forum post was just created to highlight the fact that they are in fact different, and DO NOT change the game in the same ways, and hopefully it gives people some insight on to why some players are OK with things like dual wielding, but not necessarily some of the newer changes.
>
> Thanks guys and be respectful!
>
> -Fav

I completely agree with everything he has said

12

Ya but the issue of nerfing the base gun to make dual wielding even plausible/balanced breaks the overall gun sandbox. No gun should have to be dual wielded to be useful.

13

> 2533274840624875;12:
> Ya but the issue of nerfing the base gun to make dual wielding even plausible/balanced breaks the overall gun sandbox. No gun should have to be dual wielded to be useful.

But that’s the point. They exist within their own sandbox. And you can give them unique traits on their own to give them utility.

Perfect example is plasma pistol. Can be dualwielded, has an emp utility that makes it independently viable.

Plasma rifle in CE had a stun ability that was very useful. You could implement that and if it’s broken when you dualwield then again you can independently balance the weapon in those 2 scenarios.

The core sandbox is unaffected. The dual weapons rest in their own little system that can be removed no problem without hurting the game.

Thus the control I was talking about.

14

> 2533274810305245;13:
> > 2533274840624875;12:
> > Ya but the issue of nerfing the base gun to make dual wielding even plausible/balanced breaks the overall gun sandbox. No gun should have to be dual wielded to be useful.
>
>
> But that’s the point. They exist within their own sandbox. And you can give them unique traits on their own to give them utility.
>
> Perfect example is plasma pistol. Can be dualwielded, has an emp utility that makes it independently viable.
>
> Plasma rifle in CE had a stun ability that was very useful. You could implement that and if it’s broken when you dualwield then again you can independently balance the weapon in those 2 scenarios.
>
> The core sandbox is unaffected. The dual weapons rest in their own little system that can be removed no problem without hurting the game.
>
> Thus the control I was talking about.

I understand your point and agree with the general idea but that then makes me question. If it can be removed with no affect then whats the point of adding it in the first place? It would cost time and effort that could be used elsewhere on something that basically doesnt need to exist.

15

> 2533274840624875;14:
> > 2533274810305245;13:
> > > 2533274840624875;12:
> > > Ya but the issue of nerfing the base gun to make dual wielding even plausible/balanced breaks the overall gun sandbox. No gun should have to be dual wielded to be useful.
> >
> >
> > But that’s the point. They exist within their own sandbox. And you can give them unique traits on their own to give them utility.
> >
> > Perfect example is plasma pistol. Can be dualwielded, has an emp utility that makes it independently viable.
> >
> > Plasma rifle in CE had a stun ability that was very useful. You could implement that and if it’s broken when you dualwield then again you can independently balance the weapon in those 2 scenarios.
> >
> > The core sandbox is unaffected. The dual weapons rest in their own little system that can be removed no problem without hurting the game.
> >
> > Thus the control I was talking about.
>
>
> if it can be removed with no affect then whats the point of adding it in the first place? It would cost time and effort that could be used elsewhere on something that basically doesnt need to exist.

100% if all that matters is competitive play. But halo, or at least the halo I envision, is much bigger than that.

Having these dual weapons, and implementing them correctly means you can keep the competitive play from being compromised while also adding options to the rest of the game. Keep in mind dual wielding still applies in campaign, it still is a fun fantasy for people and you can do cool stuff with finding different combinations that work.

It applies to modes like firefight and offers more tools to use when creating custom content.

Is team duals a competitive mode? Not at all but it’s still fun! It’s still it’s own little experience.

I think dual wielding is a mechanic with positive implications, and it’s also something that can be controlled in the situations it might potentially hurt the game. :slight_smile:

16

> 2533274840624875;14:
> > 2533274810305245;13:
> > > 2533274840624875;12:
> > > Ya but the issue of nerfing the base gun to make dual wielding even plausible/balanced breaks the overall gun sandbox. No gun should have to be dual wielded to be useful.
> >
> >
> > But that’s the point. They exist within their own sandbox. And you can give them unique traits on their own to give them utility.
> >
> > Perfect example is plasma pistol. Can be dualwielded, has an emp utility that makes it independently viable.
> >
> > Plasma rifle in CE had a stun ability that was very useful. You could implement that and if it’s broken when you dualwield then again you can independently balance the weapon in those 2 scenarios.
> >
> > The core sandbox is unaffected. The dual weapons rest in their own little system that can be removed no problem without hurting the game.
> >
> > Thus the control I was talking about.
>
>
> I understand your point and agree with the general idea but that then makes me question. If it can be removed with no affect then whats the point of adding it in the first place? It would cost time and effort that could be used elsewhere on something that basically doesnt need to exist.

With that mindset, what’s the point of making a sequel at all? The point of adding a new mechanic like duel wielding was to add a new mechanic to the sandbox to give players new tools to play around with. It may not have worked out as Bungie planned for it to, but that was the general idea was that they wanted to add new mechanics that built onto the formula from Halo CE without completely changing it, hence why they made it to where you could remove duel wield weapons from the maps without harming the core overall gameplay.

17

I disagree. I think that dual wielding and sprint share a fundamental flaw when it comes to the golden triangle. Both systems require to give up some if not all of the golden triangle to make use out of them. Essentially they don’t interact with the golden triangle in any interesting way, they only serve to separate them. The ability to mix and match these three pillars of combat at any time is what makes the core of Halo special. Other games may also have dedicated melee/grenade functions but in those games they are niche tools used sparingly whereas in Halo both melee and grenades see constant use and the mechanics of the game encourage players to do so.

Making use of sprint or dual wielding is inherently limiting and every moment spent using them is time lost in terms of actually participating in what is to me the primary draw of the Halo games.

And like sprint the damage dual wielding has game wide implications, they just do their damage in different places. Where sprint affects the base movement mechanics and map design, dual wielding does damage to the weapon sandbox. Dual wielding effectively gutted a sizable portion of the sandbox, particularly the autos. Not only did many weapons lose their firepower, but they lost their unique mechanics and became nothing but dull spray oriented spray weapons(RIP the one true plasma rifle in CE…).

Dual wielding was only in 2 of the now 6-7(give or take ODST) and the sandbox is still feeling the effects today. Autos got their firepower back in H4/H5, but they are all still variations on the same archtype(close range spray weapon of which there should only really be 1 at most). They still don’t lack any unique mechanics to make them interesting. Though in fairness the entire Halo sandbox has been plagued by functional clones for while now.

You could say dual wielding just had not been balanced properly, but many people still say the same thing about sprint. I’m sure you could eventually find the perfect sweet spot for both sprint and dual wielding, but I for one don’t think its really worth suffering through sub-par implementations whose potential benefits are dubious at best.

TL;DR
Both Sprint and Dual wielding suck for various reasons, some of which they share.

18

> 2533274819446242;17:
> I disagree. I think that dual wielding and sprint share a fundamental flaw when it comes to the golden triangle. Both systems require to give up some if not all of the golden triangle to make use out of them. The ability to mix and match these three pillars of combat at any time is what makes the core of Halo special. Other games may also have dedicated melee/grenade functions but in those games they are niche tools used sparingly whereas in Halo both melee and grenades see constant use and the mechanics of the game encourage players to do so.
>
> Making use of sprint or dual wielding is inherently limiting and every moment spent using them is time lost in terms of actually participating in what is to me the primary draw of the Halo games.
>
> And like sprint the damage dual wielding has game wide implications, they just do their damage in different places. Where sprint affects the base movement mechanics and map design, dual wielding does damage to the weapon sandbox. Dual wielding effectively gutted a sizable portion of the sandbox, particularly the autos. Not only did many weapons lose their firepower, but they lost their unique mechanics and became nothing but dull spray oriented spray weapons(RIP the one true plasma rifle in CE…).
>
> Dual wielding was only in 2 of the now 6-7(give or take ODST) and the sandbox is still feeling the effects today. Autos got their firepower back in H4/H5, but they are all still variations on the same archtype(close range spray weapon of which there should only really be 1 at most). They still don’t lack any unique mechanics to make them interesting. Though in fairness the entire Halo sandbox has been plagued by functional clones for while now.
>
> You could say dual wielding just had not been balanced properly, but many people still say the same thing about sprint. I’m sure you could eventually find the perfect sweet spot for both sprint and dual wielding, but I for one don’t think its really worth suffering through sub-par implementations whose potential benefits are dubious at best.
>
> TL;DR
> Both Sprint and Dual wielding suck for various reasons, some of which they share.

Not trying to be rude but did you read my post? I put out the differences fairly clearly.

Once again dual wielding is dependant on an Interaction. It can also be designed around your desired sandbox.

Automatics are not supposed to be powerful because they are easy to use. They were not made weak because of dual wielding.

19

Ok, I just thought of this idea so if it sounds far-fetched, that is probably why.
One of the main criticisms of dual wielding, at least from my experience, is the balance of the dial wielded weapons. I thought of an easy way to fix that in Halo 6 with possible innovations in forge.
This idea is customizable weapons.
You can change the damage, rate of fire. Clip size, max reserve ammo (also max dual wield ammo), toggle on and off dual wielding for compatible weapons (SMG, Magnum, Plasma Rifle, etc.), and maybe even a weapon attachment. You can also add a name to the variant you created (with a filter of course) and save it like you can a prefab. This will add so many opportunities for forge maps. For example, someone can remake Guardian and place weapons that are reminiscent of the Halo 3 sandbox.
Love your videos, Favyn!

20

Dual Wielding wasn’t a problem in Halo 3, but in Halo 2 it was because Bungie made it so you spawned with a dual wielded weapon.