Why Dualwielding Doesnt Break the Golden Triangle!

Hello everybody. So there have been a lot of discussions since Halo 5’s release concerning its new movement abilities and how the affect the game. And many of its detractors have used an argument that these movement mechanics break the golden triangle of the game. For example when you sprint you put your gun down and you can’t shoot, perform melee attacks, or throw grenades.

This is all true, but a counter argument that I often see to this is that dual wielding did the same thing. When you dualwield you cant throw grenades and meleeing causes you to drop your weapon thus discouraging you from doing so.

So at face value it seems like a pretty good argument, but it in actuality has almost no similarities to abilities currently affecting the game.

Let’s look at some things that sprint changes in Halo. It changes map design in order to accommodate the new mobility options.

Here is a quote by 343 concerning this along with its source article: Again, game mechanics have a direct bearing. In Halo 3, sprinting was impossible. In Halo: Reach, sprinting was a selectable armor ability. In Halo 4, everyone’s at it, and the maps have grown to compensate.Source
It also has a direct impact on the weapon sandbox. Just take a look at Halo 5’s automatics. They are way more powerful and kill much faster and at longer ranges than before. This is due to players being more elusive and having more options to run away. You can even look at things like grenades and see how they bounce much further than before and you could make a strong case this is to coincide with the rest of the changes.

Those are in addition to the gigantic change that Sprint separates the movement from combat. ( Each ability has their own impact but I just used sprint as the example because of its relatability )

The thing is Dualwielding doesn’t do any of these things, or at least it doesn’t have to.

It has absolutely no bearing on a games overall map design, and if done properly can exist without impacting your sandbox in any meaningful way. For instance you can design your weapons however you want to, and build your dual weapons around that. Essentially dualwieldable weapons exist within their own sandbox. They are weapons that are weak on their own, but can be combined with other dual weapons for unique combinations at the cost of some of your basic functions. ( Please note that if you are not careful you can 100% negatively impact your sandbox and I’ll address some of those things in this thread)

And I realize I haven’t addressed the big issue, and that’s its disruption of the golden triangle, but there was really only one instance where this definitively happened and that was when Halo 2 was released with SMG starts. Now because the SMG was dualwieldable, but it was also your starting weapon/primary. This changed the game. Because you basically had to dualwield and this impacted the golden triangle. But that wasn’t because of dual wielding itself, but rather its implementation at that time. When the BR became the primary it fixed this issue. And in Halo 3 it was rectified with the return of the AR which of course could not be dualwielded.

But the point remains…when you dualwield, you cant use grenades or melee…just like sprint. But heres the main point.

Sprint is a basic fundamental base ability, while Dualwielding is DEPENDENT on an interaction.
Dualwielding requires you to interact with specific components on the map. You do not spawn with 2 guns, it isn’t an ever present ability that has to be constantly accounted for. Because it is dependent on interaction it can therefore be controlled.

For example say you are designing a multiplayer map. And in the design you think " Hmm, Dual weapons feel really bad here" Maybe it’s too cramped for them, or they just feel like they hurt the balance of the map. Because they require an INTERACTION they can be controlled, and you can just not put dual weapons on the map that you feel hurts the game. Insert Sprint in to this scenario. " Wow Sprint feels really bad with this map" Oh that sucks…change your map. Because sprint is a base ability. It is always present. It has to be accounted for at all times.

All of the things that Dualwielding changes can be 100% controllable. You can implement dual wielding in to your game and still design that game however you want. With abilities like sprint, you have to design your game around it. You absolutely have to make significant adjustments for it or it will effect your experience in a completely different set of ways.

And it is because of this dependency on controllable interactions that separates dual wielding from " base mechanics". Interactions have been in Halo since CE and they all stripped your ability to throw grenades, or melee. or use the “golden triangle”. When you INTERACT with a vehicle, your functionality changes. When you interact with a turret, your functionality changes. When you hold a heavy weapon like the missile pod your functionality changes. When you Dualwield…your functionality changes.

All of these options prohibit your ability to throw grenades, melee. But they are also all interactions. They can all be controlled. This aspect of their implementation makes them “additions” to that core base gameplay, and not inherent changes. They can all be implemented in ways that don’t compromise your vision. Because you control them, you can design them around your experience. Because the abilities in Halo 5 are inherent base abilities that are present during every moment of the game… Your experience has to be designed around them.

Anyway that’s my little essay!

I appreciate everyone who took a look and please remember these things do NOT necessarily mean that Halo 5 is bad or that its additions are bad. Any opinions on that are of course subjective and you may very well like these new base abilities and the changes they cause. And you may very well hate dualwielding and think its a redundant unnecessary mechanic. Both with completely justifiable reasons. But those reasons are not the point of this thread.

This forum post was just created to highlight the fact that they are in fact different, and DO NOT change the game in the same ways, and hopefully it gives people some insight on to why some players are OK with things like dual wielding, but not necessarily some of the newer changes.

Thanks guys and be respectful!

-Fav

> 2533274810305245;1:
> And it is because of this dependency on controllable interactions that separates dual wielding from " base mechanics". Interactions have been in Halo since CE and they all stripped your ability to throw grenades, or melee. or use the “golden triangle”. When you INTERACT with a vehicle, your functionality changes. When you interact with a turret, your functionality changes. When you hold a heavy weapon like the missile pod your functionality changes. When you Dualwield…your functionality changes.
>
> All of these options prohibit your ability to throw grenades, melee. But they are also all interactions. They can all be controlled. This aspect of their implementation makes them “additions” to that core base gameplay, and not inherent changes. They can all be implemented in ways that don’t compromise your vision. Because you control them, you can design them around your experience. Because the abilities in Halo 5 are inherent base abilities that are present during every moment of the game… Your experience has to be designed around them.

This.

[Edit-Also great videos by the way.]

Well here’s a video where bungie themselves talk about the golden triangle.

Edit:

> And I realize I haven’t addressed the big issue, and that’s its disruption of the golden triangle, but there was really only one instance where this definitively happened and that was when Halo 2 was released with SMG starts. Now because the SMG was dualwieldable, but it was also your starting weapon/primary. This changed the game. Because you basically had to dualwield and this impacted the golden triangle. But that wasn’t because of dual wielding itself, but rather its implementation at that time. When the BR became the primary it fixed this issue. And in Halo 3 it was rectified with the return of the AR which of course could not be dualwielded.

Well I look like a -Yoink- now don’t i

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> Well here’s a video where bungie themselves talk about the golden triangle.

Indeed I’ve seen the video. And I included the main point of it in my thread.

Didn’t you see it in there?

About the smg being the starting weapon?

> 2533274810305245;4:
> > 2533274879407634;3:
> > Well here’s a video where bungie themselves talk about the golden triangle.
>
>
> Indeed I’ve seen the video. And I included the main point of it in my thread.
>
> Didn’t you see it in there?
>
> About the smg being the starting weapon?

Yep just edited my post, sorry about that. Most people that argue about the golden triangle haven’t seen that video so I usually show it to them. Sorry for the assumption.

> 2533274879407634;5:
> > 2533274810305245;4:
> > > 2533274879407634;3:
> > > Well here’s a video where bungie themselves talk about the golden triangle.
> >
> >
> > Indeed I’ve seen the video. And I included the main point of it in my thread.
> >
> > Didn’t you see it in there?
> >
> > About the smg being the starting weapon?
>
>
> Yep just edited my post, sorry about that. Most people that argue about the golden triangle haven’t seen that video so I usually show it to them. Sorry for the assumption.

All good man! It’s a great video and I’m glad it’s linked regardless!

Hey Favyn, love your videos man, been watching since the start, and I totally agree with you on this, but do you think the removal of dual-wielding has caused 343 to buff the SMG in Halo 5 to the point where it’s pretty much overpowered? That’s honestly how I feel about it, because you can take someone down without even going through an entire clip.

I love how people think adding lines to a shape breaks the original one.

Thats not how shapes work.

Please, keep discussions where they’re created.