Why do people say Pro is unfair?

Games Other Halo
1

One of the principal arguments against Pro/Big Team Slayer is that it’s unfair as it places players on even footing.

^whaaa

When IS has 7 unpredictable loadouts, with unlocks that aren’t available to everyone until they’ve played a lot, and random ordnance that handicaps either the pro or noob depending on the game’s dice…

Pro is simple, it’s easy to keep track of power weapons, and there’s less unknown traits at work (perks are unreliable and cannot be found out, and AAs cannot be seen until used, but that’s less of a problem).

The second argument is that it takes more skill to track unknown elements.

Literally having weapons dropped from the sky onto your face is IMPOSSIBLE to track for the other team until it hits them. Three power weapons on-map can be tracked simply because you know where they landed. Only an opponent concealing it can hide it.

The final point is that in Infinity, no match is the same.

In Pro, it’s far easier to operate a new strategy simply because it won’t be ripped apart by 5 iCannons. It can only be stopped by an equally coordinated team, creating interesting map movement. In Infinity…

Bum Rush
Kill
Die
Bum Rush
Kill
Assist
Die
Bum Rush
Kill
Assist
Kill
Lucky Assassination
Die
Call In Ordnance
Spam
Kill
Kill
Die
Game Over

Is approximately what Infinity becomes.

Thanks for reading. I wrote this because I can’t STAND playing IS.

2

I play rather poorly without my second set of eyes in the bottom corner of the screen for 4v4. It isn’t what I enjoy or am used to so it puts me at a handicap, perhaps only a handicap in my head but a handicap nonetheless :confused:

3

> I play rather poorly without my second set of eyes in the bottom corner of the screen for 4v4. It isn’t what I enjoy or am used to so it puts me at a handicap, perhaps only a handicap in my head but a handicap nonetheless :confused:

Yeah I gotta agree. I’d like Pro settings (lose all the perk and AA bullshot) but with radar.

4

> I play rather poorly without my second set of eyes in the bottom corner of the screen for 4v4. It isn’t what I enjoy or am used to so it puts me at a handicap, perhaps only a handicap in my head but a handicap nonetheless :confused:

I wish they would add Team Slayer (but keep pro) with Pro settings but WITH radar.

5

I do agree with you to a point, but I add my personal view that sometimes some ham fisted Infinity Slayer just hits the spot with me.

But I agree. I think the best solution for the game is to separate the Infinity and “Pro” gametypes. They’ve attempted to rectify this by having Team Throwdown, but it’s not doing the job, honestly. It’s time to stop trying to mix players of completely different styles into one bin. They wont mix and they never will.

6

> > I play rather poorly without my second set of eyes in the bottom corner of the screen for 4v4. It isn’t what I enjoy or am used to so it puts me at a handicap, perhaps only a handicap in my head but a handicap nonetheless :confused:
>
> Yeah I gotta agree. I’d like Pro settings (lose all the perk and AA bullshot) but with radar.

Didn’t they add radar in the most recent update?

You’ll have to pardon me for not knowing, but my disc doesn’t work so I have no way to check at the moment.

7

> One of the principal arguments against Pro/Big Team Slayer is that it’s unfair as it places players on even footing.

Actually, I’m quite sure no one who supports Infinity or hates Pro has actually ever stated that.

Its seems to be more the people who support Pro who put that in people’s mouths, or pretend that there’s a massive ammount of people who claim “Pros iz two hard”.

Gather some links together showing this being said, or don’t mark it as a principal argument, which is actually not.

> The second argument is that it takes more skill to track unknown elements.
>
> Literally having weapons dropped from the sky onto your face is IMPOSSIBLE to track for the other team until it hits them. Three power weapons on-map can be tracked simply because you know where they landed. Only an opponent concealing it can hide it.

So “skill” is being able to dominate in a match, so long as you know everything you’re gonna run into ahead of time, when and where. As oppossed to dominating in a chaotic setting where you don’t have all the information ahead of time.

And that makes sense to you?

8

> > > I play rather poorly without my second set of eyes in the bottom corner of the screen for 4v4. It isn’t what I enjoy or am used to so it puts me at a handicap, perhaps only a handicap in my head but a handicap nonetheless :confused:
> >
> > Yeah I gotta agree. I’d like Pro settings (lose all the perk and AA bullshot) but with radar.
>
> Didn’t they add radar in the most recent update?
>
> You’ll have to pardon me for not knowing, but my disc doesn’t work so I have no way to check at the moment.

Radar only returned for Big Team. Radar is still off in 4v4.

9

> > > I play rather poorly without my second set of eyes in the bottom corner of the screen for 4v4. It isn’t what I enjoy or am used to so it puts me at a handicap, perhaps only a handicap in my head but a handicap nonetheless :confused:
> >
> > Yeah I gotta agree. I’d like Pro settings (lose all the perk and AA bullshot) but with radar.
>
> Didn’t they add radar in the most recent update?
>
> You’ll have to pardon me for not knowing, but my disc doesn’t work so I have no way to check at the moment.

I think they only added radar on the BTB verision and renamed it to … Big team slayer or battle.

10

i agree with most of your comments the top guy who first posted this is kinda got wrong info if ya play right an infinity match is great fun he makes it sound like a boring job at a factory. anyway haven’t they renamed big team pro just big team infinity? and i think they should have two different play types they should have big team infinity slayer like they do in the menu but then under it there should be a different game type called big team infinity slayer PRO. so then people then get the best of both worlds noobs can play with a radar and mlg can play with no radar. also take radar out of pro it is just normal big team without your own load outs.

11

I much prefer Team Slayer Pro. It makes it much easier to plan, predict, and strategize. There’s no way to tell when a player will get his Ordinance and what that will be, and therefore no way to plan or strategize around it.

12

> So “skill” is being able to dominate in a match, so long as you know everything you’re gonna run into ahead of time, when and where. As oppossed to dominating in a chaotic setting where you don’t have all the information ahead of time.
>
> And that makes sense to you?

Skill is the ability to overcome randomness, true. But on the flip side, skill is also the ability to outsmart and outgun without randomness. Most importantly, a ‘chaotic setting’ can sometimes result in un-winnable situations where no matter how good you are at overcoming randomness, you can’t win. So here’s an example. A gravity hammer spawns next to me, which I pick up and sprint towards you. Here, it is very possible for you to simply jetpack in the air and 5-shot me. Now lets take that example, but instead an incineration cannon randomly spawns at me. Unless you’re hacking or somehow managed to port armour lock into H4, there’s no way you’re going to outskill me. It is at this point, which is far too common in H4, that the skill to overcome randomness is completely nulled by the lack of skill required in being presented with such randomness.
If you are to argue that the same thing happens in non-random spawns, true. So rockets spawn every 3 minutes in top mid or something, and you and I are both fighting around that area. The rocket spawns next to me, I pick it up and kill you. At first it seems like no skill was involved, a common mistake thought by many players. However, the difference is I deserved those rockets, I was in the right place at the right time. This is crucial for high level gameplay for skill does not only involve reflex and adaptability, it includes strategy, timing, and planning for weapon setups.
So yes it makes complete sense. For every bit of skill randomness adds it takes away double the amount in most, if not all random situations.

13

Road Wulf, let’s go through a situation frighteningly similar to IS personal and random ordnance.

You go paintballing with some friends. You decide to do 4v4. You are each given pistols. However, the other team finds two machine guns in their base.

Is that fair?

A guy on their team kills you, and is given a paint grenade.

Is that fair?

You come back into the match, get a kill. You get thrown an unused pistol round.

Is that fair?

You are dominating the power position building of the arena. Suddenly, the other team finds three paint grenades that were dropped into their base, and lobs them in your direction. You can’t dodge three grenades, so you are killed.

Is that fair?

You have your face rubbed in it by your friends, who just got lucky. You lose a 50$ bet.

Is that fair?

Let’s compare it with a fair match.

In each base there is a single grenade.

In the middle is a machine gun.

There are pistol rounds in set symmetrical places in the arena.

Every 180 seconds from game start a paint grenade is dropped in the middle.

That is fair.

14

> Road Wulf, let’s go through a situation frighteningly similar to IS personal and random ordnance.
> .

Your examples all seem avoid that key part about ordinance where you earn it. These things don’t just appear and they’re not just handed out like your paintball examples. In Halo 4 you need to do things to get them. Accrue kills. Capture the Flag.

Fairness and equality aside, the example you give at the end might be fair but, man, to me that is boring. It worked well and I enjoyed it in past Halos, but I’ll happily close the door on that style of play.

I know I’m in the minority here and I’m not knocking your opinion or preference… but I’d rather play with players who embrace uncertainty and can adapt to the unknown as opposed to those who must play with a smaller set of variables.

Back on topic, this is the first time I’ve ever heard of the Pro gametype being called unfair. You really do hear it all on these forums! In the context of fairness and equality as vocalized by the more traditional Halo players, I think the Pro games meet the commonly accepted definition of “fair”.

15

> > One of the principal arguments against Pro/Big Team Slayer is that it’s unfair as it places players on even footing.
>
> Actually, I’m quite sure no one who supports Infinity or hates Pro has actually ever stated that.
>
> Its seems to be more the people who support Pro who put that in people’s mouths, or pretend that there’s a massive ammount of people who claim “Pros iz two hard”.
>
> Gather some links together showing this being said, or don’t mark it as a principal argument, which is actually not.
>
>
>
> > The second argument is that it takes more skill to track unknown elements.
> >
> > Literally having weapons dropped from the sky onto your face is IMPOSSIBLE to track for the other team until it hits them. Three power weapons on-map can be tracked simply because you know where they landed. Only an opponent concealing it can hide it.
>
> So “skill” is being able to dominate in a match, so long as you know everything you’re gonna run into ahead of time, when and where. As oppossed to dominating in a chaotic setting where you don’t have all the information ahead of time.
>
> And that makes sense to you?

It makes perfect sense. If everyone knows what’s going to happen, it’s balanced. You gonna tell me someone getting a Needler ordnance going against someone who gets a Rocket Launcher Ordnance is fair or skillful?

16

> It makes perfect sense. If everyone knows what’s going to happen, it’s balanced. You gonna tell me someone getting a Needler ordnance going against someone who gets a Rocket Launcher Ordnance is fair or skillful?

Fair? By definition yes, as both of you had an equal chance to randomly obtain the item. As long as the randomness is the same probability across all players, then by all means it is fair.

Skillful is a totally different can of worms, which has been argued again and again, where arguments ultimately devolve into argumentum ad antiquitatem, and the acceptance/rejection of change.

17

> So “skill” is being able to dominate in a match, so long as you know everything you’re gonna run into ahead of time, when and where. As oppossed to dominating in a chaotic setting where you don’t have all the information ahead of time.

No one ever gets all the information. You can’t read the enemy’s mind and determine where they will move or what weapons they will go after.

The question is, to what extent is a situation chaotic? For example, say explosions randomly appear all across the map.

Survival comes down to being lucky, because the explosions aren’t predictable.

On the flip side, let’s say you are playing campaign and know exactly the path an AI will take, such as a straight line. There is no skill involved because the enemy’s behavior is entirely predictable.

The thing about a multiplayer FPS is the players themselves randomize the match, game mechanics are unnecessary to accomplish this purpose. Even something as simple as strafing is randomized, and player skill in reacting (i.e. aiming properly as they move chaotically) is a result.

In this context Skill should be defined as the ability to minimize random outcomes. Too much predictability leads to zero skill requirement. Too much randomness means skill is irrelevant because it’s impossible to overcome by player action alone.

Someone rounds corner with a rocket launcher they rolled. Nothing you can do.

Someone rounds corner with a concussion rifle. You can still win if you run or have good strafe.

> Fair? By definition yes, as both of you had an equal chance to randomly obtain the item. As long as the randomness is the same probability across all players, then by all means it is fair.

Ordnance Priority and Requisition.

Let’s say you and an opponent both rolled a sticky detonator. You have requisition, they do not.

You have a chance of either getting the same thing, or something better, once you re-roll.

18

Learning curves in games are looked down upon apparently at this point. I would be willing to accept Infinity Slayer if power weapons were to return as on map weapons only; limiting PODs to loadout equipment. Frags and magnums only.

343 never should have advertised Infinity Slayer as a replacement to regular Slayer. Team Slayer and Big Team Battle (including objectives in it) should have been present at launch with IS as a vote option. Instead it was injected into almost every game mode.

19

> Ordnance Priority and Requisition.
>
> Let’s say you and an opponent both rolled a sticky detonator. You have requisition, they do not.
>
> You have a chance of either getting the same thing, or something better, once you re-roll.

This is true, but when talking of PO I usually speak of it as a flat trait without the use of requisition and priority. Without those perks, each of the players have an equal opportunity to randomly be given an item with the same probability.

I’ve explained my thoughts on both perks. Priority is minor as it is only seen in a few game modes, and if I’m not mistaken there are far better options to choose from, which keep it very much in check.

Requisition I believe should be taken the D&D route of re-rolling. You can re-roll, but if you do your chances to get those rockets, or that sniper drop greatly. (IE take the lower of the two rolls)

20

Both pro and infinity slayer require skill, just a different sort of skill.

Infinity is about carefully crafting a loadout, using AAs and perks to maximum effect, choosing the wisest choice in ordnance, being patient and keeping enemies on your radar and staying off theirs.

Slayer pro is about knowing where enemies are, timing power weapon spawns, (this is true for IS as well too now come to think of it.), and good team communication.

I wouldn’t say either is more or less skillful, they are simply different.