Why Do People Say AR Starts is About Weapon Variety?

Games Halo Infinite
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This is a video from the highest level play possible, all BR starts, and they at some point use EVERY WEAPON THAT EXISTS ON THE MAP IN THE MATCH. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wt-s5elBbZc

The argument that AR starts encourages weapon variety simply does not hold up. They even use the AR in high level play lol.

If you ask me there’s 2 main reasons people believe AR starts is better:

  1. They’re not very good with the BR so they don’t want to be saddled with it.
  2. They want to farm people who can’t fight back at range by getting the only BR on the map and sitting back.
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What they mean is that they think they ought to be able to use any and all weapons at any time regardless of context, no matter how unreasonable that demand is. Unless some niche weapon, such as a close range bullet hose like the AR gets as much use as a versatile utility weapon like the BR, then they claim that the game doesn’t have enough “variety.”

Its an intensely shallow position that isn’t actually supported by the franchises history. Most weapons in the Halo sandbox have been useable, but there has been a small subset of poorly designed, shallow, and/or redundant weapons that have gotten rightly passed over, but instead of trying to fix those weapons its easier for them to scapegoat the resident utility weapon of any given Halo game rather than come up with solutions for underperforming weapons.

There is also a subcategory of AR stans that just viscerally hate seeing and using the BR(or insert utility weapon here). Their desire to use their personal favorite weapons gets warped into actively trying to minimize or outright remove weapons the playerbase actually does want to use. They don’t want to reckon with the idea that their favs are actually not all that compelling to use beyond their unique models and effects. Again instead of trying to fix what’s broken they try and break/hide what already works.

TL;DR They claim AR starts is about “variety” because they can appear to be speaking out for underserved members of the community rather than the openly state they just have their own personal axes to grind. Just faux-populist messaging to hide their personal grudges.

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Saying AR starts have less or the same variety as BR starts is an outright lie. AR starts do have way way more map weapon usage. I’m also Onyx in ranked so i am not bad with the BR by any means.
If anything the BR is too easy to use. I made a whole post as to how its basically impossible to have any weapon variety with the BR as strong as it is here on the forums. If anything wanting BR starts means you don’t want map weapons to be stronger against the starting weapons because you are afraid of getting steam rolled. The BR allows for lazy play where pushing map weapons isn’t really necessary. The title of my post with my full argument is below but your original comments for why people want AR starts are completely wrong.

“Its basically impossible to balance a game around the BR (and the DMR)”

If you want to check my stats my gamertag is The Cool Spoon, i can assure you i don’t prefer AR starts because i am bad with the BR. I do because i find the BR extremely boring and beyond easy to use. I have also always hated the “Utility weapon” design philosophy and thinks it makes for boring repetitive gameplay in an Arena Shooter.

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Youre a funny guy you know that. Saying people won’t use weapons on the map if the starting weapon is to powerful is a ridiculous thing to say. Sound like someone who like the rockets and doesn’t want someone to kill them before the can use em to me.

Say what you want but the fact remains that of this is a true competitive game then they wouldn’t tell you when power weapons and equipment would spawn on the map. That takes every aspect of map and weapon relationship out of the equation. You use to have to know when stuff on the map was going to respawn. Down to the Granades if you could pay attention.

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The BR is really frustrating to use on PC, but that’s the same as everything else about Infinite on PC. Hey 343, when are you going to make Infinite actually fun to play on PC?

The primary issue with the AR in this game is that it’s too good as an all-rounder, making map pickups less useful. Pretty much everything else that sits in the AR’s range-class doesn’t outclass the AR. If we got BR starts in Casual in this game, it would be turned into a long-range sniping battle where neither team wants to approach and is instead content to sit in base and play duck hunt, taking pot shots at the poor losers who want to break the monotony. At least AR starts and the Pistol not being a long-range laser beam this time around makes matches more… Fun, I guess.

Halo Infinite’s entire sandbox needs a balance sweep. Outside of Power Weapons, the utility of anything that’s not the AR, BR, Sidekick and Bulldog/Heatwave is dubious at best.

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I agree with your second paragraph. I absolutely hate the spawn timers and that it shows you where they spawn at. And i personally have a huge grudge against the “Utility Weapon” design. It does cause people to move around the map less and use other weapons less often. Its not as bad as it used to be now that the BR finally loses to the AR at close range but before Infinite outside of super niche situations you didn’t really need another weapon to hold your own. I don’t know how people can watch pros play or play ranked and not come to this conclusion.

That said its not the end of the world. Just admit you like that play style. Less emphasis on map weapons and a dominant utility weapon. AR starts aren’t perfect. I can more than recognize its much harder to fight back if someone has a sniper or other map weapons and im okay with that. Im fine getting steam rolled if my team can’t get map weapons with AR starts.

Why can’t people own up to the flaws of BR starts and just say they either like them or don’t care about certain consequences of a BR start? I’m never going to argue we shouldn’t ever have BR starts but i will argue we need AR starts in its own comp playlist. Its a whole different set of skills you need to play AR starts. Anyways go look at that post i made if you want more arguments, it sucks having to type this multiple times.

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Really that’s the thing is that they need more ranked variety I don’t understand what the deal is with that. Not enough players I guess. They have playlist they could take out and make a more comp. ranking.

Thing about pros is they’re winning or trying. BR is the best weapon and it started MLG comp. so it is really the only weapon needed. With that being said weapons on map make any game play more exciting, it is a game after all. But still as not to strip the game away from its comp. glory that created Millionaire essentially if you think about it.

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name one weapon that people use more in AR starts than in BR starts, besides the AR and Sidekick.

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I would say that AR and BR starts have their own level of flux when it comes to how a player would approach the variety of weapons in a map. Both are incredibly powerful at the ranges they are proficient at. It could be argued that once you have either of these weapons, unless you pick up a powerful weapon like the rockets or cindershot, it becomes evident how important the starting weapons are. With the higher emphasis on having fewer weapons that could kill in one shot, there isn’t much of an incentive to pick up another if the one you spawn in with can do it in the same level of time, meaning you could just take the time after spawning in to hunt down other players.

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Depends a bit on the game.

In Infinite AR starts, people still ignore the Pulse Carbine, Plasma Pistol, Mangler, Needler, Sentinel Beam, and Commando most of the time. There are exceptions, but 99% of what I feel like I see used is ARs, Sidekicks, and BRs, with the occasional Bulldog, Stalker/Shock Rifle, and Power Weapon thrown in.

I see exactly the same thing in BRs, but noone uses the AR or Sidekick in it.

So purely by nature of people actually using ARs and Sidekicks in ARs, it has exactly those two weapons’ more variety, and the one or two guys on the map with a BR in their hands are just better off than everybody else.

In past Halo games, where the AR and Magnum, or SMG in Halo 2’s case, were actually bad, I pretty much saw the same thing, except old Halo maps usually had more than 1 or 2 BR or equivalent spawns to work with. It was a bunch of people running around with their ARs (or SMGs) unless they had a power weapon or got their hands on a BR, Carbine, DMR, or Needle Rifle.

And then of course in Halo CE and Halo 5, everyone just used the Magnum and power weapons. Heck, in H5 the BR, DMR, and Carbine we’re all basically redundant because the Light Rifle was the only precision weapon that actually outperformed the Magnum, with a small argument being made for the DMR in long ranged engagements, but that was very map dependent and mostly only applied to Warzone.

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I understand that they are catering for the casual player, so they are not getting beemedcacross the map on BTB but now I start with AR only to get beamed by some kid who has picked up a BR and from that distance I have no reply with an AR
Also if there was a BR slayer this would give people the chance to upskill in this weapon before going into ranked

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Mmm I truly appreciate your point of view but for people that don’t want to get killed from across the map in most cases and like seeing people of all skill levels use other weapons and learning the maps, spawns, and locations for weapons, grenades, and vehicles, I will always say weak start off is the best gameplay experience for all levels of players.

Personally I’ve never been a fan of strong weapon start off because the lack of multiple types of weapons being used. I don’t play Halo for UNSC Warfare. Sadly ever since 343 took over that’s what it feels like in every Halo game which is unfortunate. But hey don’t get the wrong idea strong weapon starts can be fun only if weapons on map are stronger then the weapons you spawn with.

To be honest I don’t think I’ll ever understand Bungie and 343 decisions by making UNSC weapons OP and more useful then Covenant and Forerunner Weapons. Like the Covenant are a 1,000 years ahead of the UNSC and the Forerunners are over 100,000 years ahead of both of them but for some strange and stupid reason the UNSC Armory is stronger and more useful then anything else. That literally makes no sense what so ever. That’s like taking a sword from WW2 and putting it up against a lightsabor from star wars and saying the WW2 sword is stronger. :face_exhaling: Just thinking about it makes me frustrated.

But I still have hope that one day Halo won’t be about UNSC Warfare and more about all everything that the series has to offer.

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In BR starts i never use: Needler, commando, mangler, disruptor, hydra, ravager.

On top of that i use these guns less because they have much more of a niche roll: stalker rifle, bulldog, heatwave, pulse carbine, sniper, gravity hammer, energy sword, shock rifle, sentinel beam.

You don’t want me to count the AR and Sidekick but that’s 2 more guns on top of these and Infinite is better than previous Halos because the AR actually beats the BR at close range so this used to be worse. Its not just weapons that don’t get used its the fact that the BR is so good i don’t really have to care as much if someone gets a stalker rifle or energy sword because if they do i still outrange the sword by a huge margin and can easily descope the stalker rifle. These 2 scenarios cover most weapons in the sandbox.

And since no one will go read my other post, the BR has all of this:

  • long range
  • no bloom
  • low recoil, if any
  • no penalty to hip fire
  • a scope
  • near perfect accuracy
  • a large mag (can kill more spartans per mag
    than most guns
  • large ammo pool (as a spawn weapon this
    effectively gives you infinite ammo)
  • near hitscan projectiles

Tell me how they are supposed to be able to balance a whole sandbox and make other guns fun and often useful when this is your starting weapon’s attributes?

The AR shares its effective range with many more map weapons, thats why more weapons get used and more get used more often in AR starts.

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I agree with what you’re saying.
I actually like the AR in infinite, and I don’t see the need for a BR start in most of the maps we have. The BR has a sick range, almost rivaling that of the sniper, without its power.
The only use for it that I see is in open area sections of a map, like the roads on high-power, or cross map on recharge for example. There is excels, but I’d prefer the AR in most other closer range situations. And I mean, thats what they are both designed to do, so it makes sense.
So I would think having map spawned BR in those types of positions would make more sense, and when you look at the maps, that’s pretty much where they got them spawning.

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Why on earth would you not use the most powerful weapons in the game when given the chance? If it’s just preference of what you like to use, I don’t see how AR or BR starts is a relevant factor. The majority of weapons you listed are overpowered in a niche role, and ignoring them is a bad idea.

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Part of using the guns less is because its less worth it, the BR can already cross map with ease so is it really worth going for the other long range weapons when i could instead just camp with the BR?

As for the shorter range weapons, due to everyone being able to easily cross map people don’t engage in close quarters combat near as often because there is no need to, making the opportunities to use close range weapons less frequent. So yes i pick up a bulldog less often because people using a BR don’t ever have to come near me, so why risk a life going to grab a map weapon i won’t use that often?

Long Range Utility Weapon Spawns also mean map design has to be very narrow and cut off. Blood Gulch is often said to never be able to come back because its a terribly balanced map. But that is simply not the case, its just not meant to spwan everyone with a gun that can easily cross map. Blood Gulch would be a great big team map that was a vehicle combat showcase if it hardly had any long range weapons on it. Maybe a singe sniper near the middle of the map. I do wish 343 would take this as a design philosophy: Not every map needs to have every weapon. That way you could have maps like Blood Gulch come back, just focus on vehicle combat for some maps and some infantry.

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Consider my ghasts flabbered, because I would never walk by a shock rifle or sniper just because I have a BR. I would certainly never walk by a hammer or bulldog or heatwave on any 4v4 map…or btb map actually, since most of those weapons are high tier vehicle killers.

That leads me to another point, why are you ignoring every anti vehicle weapon in a vehicle heavy gametype?

See this tells me you never played Halo 2 and never suffered through SMG starts in btb. It was atrocious and unplayable.

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The problem is that slayer starts have always been bad. (Starting without the main utility weapon) . Like back in the day bungie came out themselves and admitted to it. Hence…BR starts was born. All the old forum threads no longer exist…but i had this discussion with someone quite some time ago and was able to pull the thread that had a link to them admitting it back then.

Its not about weapon variety imo, its about starting with a weapon that is capable, while the map weapons are niche weapons that fill certain roles.

The BR is god tier. No doubt, sure. Imo…I’d have loved the 5 magnum to be in infinite with a slower ROF, still 5SK…and put BRs in btb or something. Idk. Thats just personally me though. The BR allows players to kind of drag their reticle and get swipe shots on weak players where as long as 1 bullet of the burst hits they get that kill, whereas a single shot weapon you’d just miss. You need to be on target for that single shot.

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That would go against the Infinite mantra of “shoot fast, ask questions later”

There’s never been a halo with a more spammy weapon sandbox. Almost every weapon is just about slamming the trigger.

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See SMG starts were bad because it encouraged dual wielding, which discouraged grenades and melee, and it has abismal range. I would argue Infinites AR is the perfect starting weapon. It has an effective range from the top of short to the bottom of medium range. This puts it just barely outside of most short range map weapons and prevents easy cross mapping. In no other Halo have we ever had a competent AR, it was usually complete trash and not worth using because even at close range a BR/DMR could beat you.

The BR has a pretty long effective range making it super easy to outrange almost every map weapon and its not too hard to just sit back and basically head glitch with the BR which is all ranked seems to be. Outside of the rocket (and the sword just because i love using it not because its actually effective against BR starts) i never push a map weapon in ranked. Its just not worth it when i could go push a better position for using the BR. If i happen upon one i might grab it but pushing for it over getting a good BR caming spot is never worth it.

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