There seems to be a trend with 343 over nerfing heroes/units/leaders instead of doing small incremental tweaks. This method of balancing games creates multiple problems. First, this method of balancing does not show what the problem actually was. I think 343 may have over nerfed Jerome. I KNOW Jerome needed a nerf but I thought the two largest problems were the cooldown of the mech and the safety the mech provided to Jerome. I would have been okay if the cooldown was increased even more (maybe 90-120 seconds). I also think that Jerome should have at least his shields removed when dying in the mech and maybe even take him to as much as half HP. This combined with the speed reduction nerf on Time for Heroes should have been enough. Tacking on everything else is addressing something that wasn’t a problem, will take away his uniqueness, and make him completely unviable like so many other UNSC before him, but that is opinion. The issue is the approach 343 is taking to balancing.
Here is a very simplified example of how this method of balancing can create a problem:
Unit A is overpowered. Unit B is supposed to be the direct counter to Unit A. It takes too much of Unit B to kill unit A. A balance update comes out that nerfs every aspect of Unit A (Hp, speed, cost, damage, and ability cooldown). Unit A now loses to Unit B with ease and now Unit A is no longer able to compete with its original counters.
You have now indirectly buffed Unit B and if unit B was good against the majority of the other units you may have created a new OP unit. You have made Unit A unplayable which could have many unforeseen consequences like Unit B becoming OP, or maybe even a new Unit does. However, the biggest problem with balancing in this manner is that YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT STAT WAS MAKING SAID UNIT A OP IN THE FIRST PLACE AND SINCE 343 WILL NOT RELEASE UNIT STATS WE HAVE NO WAY OF HELPING THEM DISCERN WHAT STAT IS CAUSING THE PROBLEM.
For the sake of argument, let’s say that only speed needed to be nerfed for Unit A to be completely balanced by nerfing every stat you make it much harder to discern how to continue tweaking that unit in the future.
Communicating with the player base would help a lot too. I don’t see why a dev member can’t spend 30 minutes a day interacting with the community and give their perspective on the balance decisions going forward instead of staying silent and only communicating balance decisions when the patch is about to drop. I know I and a lot of other players spend a lot of time and effort discussing the balance changes needed in the game and the good ones give reasons WHY the balance changes should happen. We never get communicated with by 343. It could be as simple as 343 dev saying, “We will look into that unit interaction,” or, “We have been watching that unit closely and it is only built in low-level matches,” but hopefully a little more involved and detailed.
Last, come on 343 give us unit stats. Saying you are reducing the speed by 10 percent or damage by 20 percent or ANY STAT BY ANY NUMBER/PERCENTAGE MEANS NOTHING BECAUSE WE HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA WHAT THOSE NUMBERS ARE. I think the only hard stat we have is that the Lotus moves at a speed of 9.5 because 343 mentioned it in a previous patch (which still means nothing because we have no idea what any other units speed is.
Sorry for rant but at the very least can you release the unit stats? I know they exist I am just confused what you perceive to gain by keeping them private? Maybe communicate the reasoning to us at least?
I agree with most that you said, though I do think the Jerome nerfs might be ok in the end. I want to see how the stat changes effect his viability.
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> I agree with most that you said, though I do think the Jerome nerfs might be ok in the end. I want to see how the stat changes effect his viability.
Yes, I could be completely wrong about the Jerome nerfs but even if I am wrong and the nerfs work perfectly I STILL think it is the incorrect method to apply balance changes.
i dont think the nerfs were that bad, i was getting utterly stomped by these mantis rushes once the better players perfected them.
IIA T AII, Your posts are always right on point. When I seen the balance notes I just shook my head, it’s Anders all over again.
I’m not even a Jerome player, and I really didn’t have a big problem with him. I thought all he needed was a cool down nerf and just drop his shields temporarily when you kill him in his mech as you mentioned. IMO, that would have been a good comprise. They just went absolutely nerf crazy on him… more expensive, longer build time, nerfed his mantis range, mantis damage, mantis hp, longer cool down for mantis, nerf on time for heros, and he now takes damage while in the mantis. I just don’t see why you would choose him now over Cutter. Everything that gave him his edge is essentially gone now. Basically he’s now an overpriced hero, that you would now be better off spamming marines than spending all the money buying him. I just don’t get it, as soon as UNSC had another viable hero outside of Cutter it has to go after a week. Looks like we’ll be back to Cutter and the Banished dominating again. SMH.
I disagree with most of what you said. Jerome has been the most OP leader in HW2 since launch. Even more so than Kinsano in her prime.
We haven’t played yet to see if he’s not viable. I recall people saying Jerome was useless and Arbiter was over powered before releasing, which makes me laugh a little bit now.
This update seems like an extension of the previous one, a refinement if you will, which is perfectly fine. Jerome needed a big nerf and atriox a small one.
All of this being said, I strongly agree with unit data availability. They have been vocal about it not being public, and having no plans to change it which is disappointing.
Anyways, besides Anders being complete crap and Rabbits being useless for a season and a half, I can’t think of a nerf that has been 1. Unjustified and 2. Over the top.
In conclusion: I think 343 has the right approach to balancing, but an unfortunate policy on unit information.
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> I thought all he needed was a cool down nerf and just drop his shields temporarily when you kill him in his mech as you mentioned.
You’re in denial and very biased.
His Mantis drop dealt more damage than any leader power at a ridiculous cooldown. For reference, my 2v2 partner went on a 20 win streak as Jerome and got to #7 on the leader board. In the end he told me that the most effective way to win games was just Dropping the Mantis on top of the enemy and let it die to reuse the drop again. There is no other nuke as effective as that one.
Jerome was incredibly broken both on his kit and hero unit.
actually now that i looked closer at the nerfs, maybe it was a bit overkill…
Like I said, they really need to work on their communication skills and give us a damn test build
> 2533274927740213;2:
> I agree with most that you said, though I do think the Jerome nerfs might be ok in the end. I want to see how the stat changes effect his viability.
I sure hope so… Those nerfs look pretty intensive and makes me a little concerned… We’re talking like a +280% cooldown increase for the Mantis in addition to destroying the health and nerfing the range/damage.
Not to mention that Jerome doesn’t have the economy of most of the other leaders. Now on top of that he’s also the most expensive leader+costly upgrades. Right there to me sounds like the situation is essentially going to be flipped with opposing heroes already knocking down your door with a rush before you can even pump out a drastically weakened Jerome and units.
It has seemed to me that nearly every nerf done so far has been way too much dropping leaders like Anders and Forge from the top leader towards the bottom.
I could be overreacting as I haven’t played it (is it out?).
> 2533274821521504;7:
> > 2533274976330669;5:
> > I thought all he needed was a cool down nerf and just drop his shields temporarily when you kill him in his mech as you mentioned.
>
> You’re in denial and very biased.
>
> His Mantis drop dealt more damage than any leader power at a ridiculous cooldown. For reference, my 2v2 partner went on a 20 win streak as Jerome and got to #7 on the leader board. In the end he told me that the most effective way to win games was just Dropping the Mantis on top of the enemy and let it die to reuse the drop again. There is no other nuke as effective as that one.
>
> Jerome was incredibly broken both on his kit and hero unit.
How am I biased and I’ve only played with him once. Me and my partner got to number 17 and 9 on 2v2 going against nothing but essentially Jerome players when we are Cutter/Johnson mains. If anything I should have been rooting for him to get nerfed.
Check your facts next time before posting and throwing accusations.
I shoulda used a different example but it was the most recent. I really was just using Jerome because he was the most recent. What I really want is more communication, unit stats, and incremental balance patches.
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> I shoulda used a different example but it was the most recent. I really was just using Jerome because he was the most recent. What I really want is more communication, unit stats, and incremental balance patches.
Mind if I add in frequent, incremental balance patches?
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> > 2674682457271996;12:
> > I shoulda used a different example but it was the most recent. I really was just using Jerome because he was the most recent. What I really want is more communication, unit stats, and incremental balance patches.
>
> Mind if I add in frequent, incremental balance patches?
Yup especially because they have shown the capability to make small tweaks without the need for patches, just a restart.
> 2533274976330669;11:
> > 2533274821521504;7:
> > > 2533274976330669;5:
> > > I thought all he needed was a cool down nerf and just drop his shields temporarily when you kill him in his mech as you mentioned.
> >
> > You’re in denial and very biased.
> >
> > His Mantis drop dealt more damage than any leader power at a ridiculous cooldown. For reference, my 2v2 partner went on a 20 win streak as Jerome and got to #7 on the leader board. In the end he told me that the most effective way to win games was just Dropping the Mantis on top of the enemy and let it die to reuse the drop again. There is no other nuke as effective as that one.
> >
> > Jerome was incredibly broken both on his kit and hero unit.
>
> How am I biased and I’ve only played with him once. Me and my partner got to number 17 and 9 on 2v2 going against nothing but essentially Jerome players when we are Cutter/Johnson mains. If anything I should have been rooting for him to get nerfed.
>
> Check your facts next time before posting and throwing accusations.
I was too lazy to look at your game history. Still doesn’t change the fact that your nerf proposal was not enough.
> 2533274821521504;15:
> > 2533274976330669;11:
> > > 2533274821521504;7:
> > > > 2533274976330669;5:
> > > > I thought all he needed was a cool down nerf and just drop his shields temporarily when you kill him in his mech as you mentioned.
> > >
> > > You’re in denial and very biased.
> > >
> > > His Mantis drop dealt more damage than any leader power at a ridiculous cooldown. For reference, my 2v2 partner went on a 20 win streak as Jerome and got to #7 on the leader board. In the end he told me that the most effective way to win games was just Dropping the Mantis on top of the enemy and let it die to reuse the drop again. There is no other nuke as effective as that one.
> > >
> > > Jerome was incredibly broken both on his kit and hero unit.
> >
> > How am I biased and I’ve only played with him once. Me and my partner got to number 17 and 9 on 2v2 going against nothing but essentially Jerome players when we are Cutter/Johnson mains. If anything I should have been rooting for him to get nerfed.
> >
> > Check your facts next time before posting and throwing accusations.
>
> I was too lazy to look at your game history. Still doesn’t change the fact that your nerf proposal was not enough.
Like everyone else I’m entitled to my opinion. And from reading what others have said in this thread I’m not the only one that feels like all the nerfs were an overkill.
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> > 2533274927740213;2:
> >
>
> I could be overreacting as I haven’t played it (is it out?).
It releases sometime this week
I agree. Look at what they did to Kinsano.
Poor lass.
> 2533274859620752;18:
> I agree. Look at what they did to Kinsano.
>
> Poor lass.
I think her nerfs were a lot more heavy handed then Jerome’s
> 2533274927740213;19:
> > 2533274859620752;18:
> > I agree. Look at what they did to Kinsano.
> >
> > Poor lass.
>
> I think her nerfs were a lot more heavy handed then Jerome’s
Oh, for sure. I’m not touching her ever again until they buff her.