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> > >
> >
> > H5 didn’t retcon chief being the last Spartan II because he was never the last Spartan II.
>
> He was in the instruction manual.
Which was said only once for the very first game. 18 years ago. It seems people take that single throwaway line that wasn’t flushed out further a little too seriously.
The Fall of Reach was already released by Halo: CE’s launch and pointedly refuted that notion of ‘last remaining Spartan.’
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> > > >
> > >
> > > H5 didn’t retcon chief being the last Spartan II because he was never the last Spartan II.
> >
> > He was in the instruction manual.
>
> Which was said only once for the very first game. 18 years ago. It seems people take that single throwaway line that wasn’t flushed out further a little too seriously.
>
> The Fall of Reach was already released by Halo: CE’s launch and pointedly refuted that notion of ‘last remaining Spartan.’
It put one more Spartan (Linda I think) in the cryotube for split screen Co-op.
edited so I don’t waste a forum post: I would still prefer Fall of Reach storyline which loosely eludes to a second Spartan II on board instead of a clone.
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> > > 2666640315087182;14:
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> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > H5 didn’t retcon chief being the last Spartan II because he was never the last Spartan II.
> > >
> > > He was in the instruction manual.
> >
> > Which was said only once for the very first game. 18 years ago. It seems people take that single throwaway line that wasn’t flushed out further a little too seriously.
> >
> > The Fall of Reach was already released by Halo: CE’s launch and pointedly refuted that notion of ‘last remaining Spartan.’
>
> It put one more Spartan (Linda I think) in the cryotube for split screen Co-op.
Linda’s cryotube was jettisoned into space before the Pillar of Autumn landed on Installation 04. Linda was still clinically dead during the events of Halo: CE. The other Spartan in co-op is just a cloned Chief.
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> > > I understand that it may be immersion breaking to see a clone fighting along side you, but the singleplayer is really the canon part of the campaign. There comes a rule of fun over a rule of everything being explained. Like how multiplayer was explained as “spartan games” or whatever. Nobody cares that multiplayer is spartan games. We didn’t need to know that. Also I thought it was pretty cool having the Arbiter return as a co op player in Halo 3.
> > >
> > > Having your own individual spartan fight alongside the chief to make it fit more with canon brings along its own problems. Obviously Spartans get noticed more, and in addition a spartan constantly following chief and fighting alongside him will play a greater role in the story. So having a co op like that but still having chief in prime focus would probably be jarring and odd since there’s another spartan right next to them. Wouldn’t they want his input? After all he fights next to the chief. A marine could be a background characters like that, but not a spartan.
> > >
> > > I don’t really think it matters who’s the co op character and I don’t need an explanation to have fun.
> >
> > Canon is now everything in Halo no matter where its fun. People like myself, need an explanation on what or where or why I am doing. On 343i’s side, it fits them into their creativity that no matter where you are in the game, you are still part of the canon Halo universe.
> >
> > If there were games without an explanation, I create my own explanation to keep myself interested.
>
> I disagree in that halo’s multiplayer wasn’t more fun or less fun or engaging because they added extra lore or whatever. In fact Halos that didn’t explain their multiplayer modes as “spartan simulations” were more popular (though I’m sure it has more to do with something else than explanation). I just don’t really care. Should the campaign be thoroughly explained? Absolutely. But the explanation of everything sets a precedent, which will have some players asking why a clone of master chief appeared in halos 1/2/4 and was never mentioned elsewhere.
Yes, no one asked for more lore everywhere in Halo. And no one did question why there were clones of Master chief. But they only did that in their time because they just wanted Halo to be cooperative. Altogether, adding lore, in my opinion, doesn’t bother me and doesn’t bother anyone thoroughly. But if it doesn’t matter to you thats fine. Overall I think no matter what, having a second character as someone else besides clone of Master chief will still bring fun and enjoyment.
Single player campaign is the canon experience. I view co-op as just another fun new way to experience a campaign. The squad-based mechanic in H5 rubbed me the wrong way because 343 tried to make a justification for co-op and tried to make co-op a canon experience as well. For me, there was no need to make a justification for co-op in the first place because, canonically speaking, single player campaign was the only important canon experience before H5 came around.
H3 delved into this a little bit with the Arbiter, and delved a bit more with four player co-op characters. The difference between H5’s squad-based mechanic and H3’s co-op experience was the fact that in H5, you had four characters no matter what, which forced you to play with often ineffective AI companions. Had H3 forced you to play with the Arbiter and two other Elites all the time, it would have watered down the experience imo.
> 2535435902217648;25:
> Single player campaign is the canon experience. I view co-op as just another fun new way to experience a campaign. The squad-based mechanic in H5 rubbed me the wrong way because 343 tried to make a justification for co-op and tried to make co-op a canon experience as well. For me, there was no need to make a justification for co-op in the first place because, canonically speaking, single player campaign was the only important canon experience before H5 came around.
>
> H3 delved into this a little bit with the Arbiter, and delved a bit more with four player co-op characters. The difference between H5’s squad-based mechanic and H3’s co-op experience was the fact that in H5, you had four characters no matter what, which forced you to play with often ineffective AI companions. Had H3 forced you to play with the Arbiter and two other Elites all the time, it would have watered down the experience imo.
I understand that. But i’m not trying to make the cooperative experience more canon and explainable. I am only trying to make it more creative and divine. Scenario wise, I rather walk in a cooperative game as Master chief with Spartan IV designs rather than two Master Chiefs.
Land a ODST and player 2 plays as him for back up.
We could look at it as the ODST is shadowing/training to become a spartan.
Why not allow the second player to be their customizable Spartan 4? In solo games, Master Chief would be the only Spartan but in coop, all extra players can customize their character. The lore could just be that they are Spartan 4’s that are assigned under Master Chief. I always wanted this in Halo 4, even though it would break the lore. Just for fun gameplay.
I suppose it all depends really, if it’s a 2 player experience, it may be the Arbiter since Chief and Arbiter were reunited in the end of 5. If it’s a 4 player, it most likely will be Blue Team again (I’m hoping they get WAY more screen time this time around…seriously, what a kick to the -blam!- that we only got 3 missions to actually PLAY as Blue Team. (yes, I did self censor :P)),
I however am not against the second player being our own Spartan-IV though. Some might disagree, but I would be ecstatic! It would feel like Reach all over again.
> 2533274879757912;30:
> I suppose it all depends really, if it’s a 2 player experience, it may be the Arbiter since Chief and Arbiter were reunited in the end of 5. If it’s a 4 player, it most likely will be Blue Team again (I’m hoping they get WAY more screen time this time around…seriously, what a kick to the -blam!- that we only got 3 missions to actually PLAY as Blue Team. (yes, I did self censor :P)),
>
> I however am not against the second player being our own Spartan-IV though. Some might disagree, but I would be ecstatic! It would feel like Reach all over again.
I love the way Reach did it. It didn’t have a lore explanation but it was fun. Ideally, coop in the future should be a combination between lore H3/H5 and players 2-4 customizing their own Spartan like Reach. Using a copy of Master Chief is the laziest option in my opinion. Halo 3 and 5 both had actual characters in the game. Halo Reach didn’t have a lore explanation but allowed everyone to customize. Halo ODST misses out. Extra character should have been able to customize their ODST armor or allow the other character to be playable when possible. Like playing as Buck and Rookie in the last mission.
A different issue but why can’t players choose who they are in Halo 5 solo? You can in coop. Like why can’t I choose to play as Buck with Lock as an AI player in Fireteam Osiris in a solo campaign?
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> > 2533274879757912;30:
> > I suppose it all depends really, if it’s a 2 player experience, it may be the Arbiter since Chief and Arbiter were reunited in the end of 5. If it’s a 4 player, it most likely will be Blue Team again (I’m hoping they get WAY more screen time this time around…seriously, what a kick to the -blam!- that we only got 3 missions to actually PLAY as Blue Team. (yes, I did self censor :P)),
> >
> > I however am not against the second player being our own Spartan-IV though. Some might disagree, but I would be ecstatic! It would feel like Reach all over again.
>
> I love the way Reach did it. It didn’t have a lore explanation but it was fun. Ideally, coop in the future should be a combination between lore H3/H5 and players 2-4 customizing their own Spartan like Reach. Using a copy of Master Chief is the laziest option in my opinion. Halo 3 and 5 both had actual characters in the game. Halo Reach didn’t have a lore explanation but allowed everyone to customize. Halo ODST misses out. Extra character should have been able to customize their ODST armor or allow the other character to be playable when possible. Like playing as Buck and Rookie in the last mission.
>
> A different issue but why can’t players choose who they are in Halo 5 solo? You can in coop. Like why can’t I choose to play as Buck with Lock as an AI player in Fireteam Osiris in a solo campaign?
That would be pretty nice, being able to at least tailor your character if you’re not player 1.
The reason is that because you are solo playing the campaign, 343i expects you to see the whole picture through Chief and Locke’s eyes. In a solo play experience, you are expected to be the main protagonist. I’m also fairly sure they just never made Chief and Locke AI’s…
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> > So the book I think it was Linda who was injured and put in the cryo tube, Either way it was written in such a manner that you could explain the Co-op scene when 2 Spartans emerged from the cryostasis pods even though it is pretty much canon that MC was alone in those games. I am not a big fan of retconning but after some disasters in the attempts to continue the series (cough* $tar War$ cough*0 and also how H5 has already retconend MC not being the only Spartan II to survive, I can see an alternate storyline where a whole Spartan fire team made it through Halo 1, 2 and 3 so we can have 4 player co-op for all of MCC.
>
> H5 didn’t retcon chief being the last Spartan II because he was never the last Spartan II.
If you played Halo in 2001 you would know that back then he was the only spartan 2 left. Idk when that changed but thats how it was understood back in the day
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> > > >
> > >
> > > H5 didn’t retcon chief being the last Spartan II because he was never the last Spartan II.
> >
> > He was in the instruction manual.
>
> Which was said only once for the very first game. 18 years ago. It seems people take that single throwaway line that wasn’t flushed out further a little too seriously.
>
> The Fall of Reach was already released by Halo: CE’s launch and pointedly refuted that notion of ‘last remaining Spartan.’
It didn’t though. If I remember correctly all of the Spartan 2s were originally killed on reach. I could be wrong but this is how I remember it. Its been a long time.
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> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > H5 didn’t retcon chief being the last Spartan II because he was never the last Spartan II.
> > >
> > > He was in the instruction manual.
> >
> > Which was said only once for the very first game. 18 years ago. It seems people take that single throwaway line that wasn’t flushed out further a little too seriously.
> >
> > The Fall of Reach was already released by Halo: CE’s launch and pointedly refuted that notion of ‘last remaining Spartan.’
>
> It didn’t though. If I remember correctly all of the Spartan 2s were originally killed on reach. I could be wrong but this is how I remember it. Its been a long time.
Actually some did survive (like Linda, Kelly, Fredrick, etc.). I wouldn’t blame anyone for not knowing that, I think it’s 343 lore and not Bungie lore. I personally feel like their survival is kind of goofy since we were supposed to be losing the war, and chief was supposed to be our last hope. It’s like in Star Wars how there was Order 66 and, wait, come to find out a ton of jedi actually survived. Reason I say that is that in my mind Halo and Star Wars are starting to draw parallels; nothing is final and everything drags on.
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> > > > > 2535469655845689;8:
> > > > > > 2666640315087182;5:
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > H5 didn’t retcon chief being the last Spartan II because he was never the last Spartan II.
> > > >
> > > > He was in the instruction manual.
> > >
> > > Which was said only once for the very first game. 18 years ago. It seems people take that single throwaway line that wasn’t flushed out further a little too seriously.
> > >
> > > The Fall of Reach was already released by Halo: CE’s launch and pointedly refuted that notion of ‘last remaining Spartan.’
> >
> > It didn’t though. If I remember correctly all of the Spartan 2s were originally killed on reach. I could be wrong but this is how I remember it. Its been a long time.
>
> Actually some did survive (like Linda, Kelly, Fredrick, etc.). I wouldn’t blame anyone for not knowing that, I think it’s 343 lore and not Bungie lore. I personally feel like their survival is kind of goofy since we were supposed to be losing the war, and chief was supposed to be our last hope. It’s like in Star Wars how there was Order 66 and, wait, come to find out a ton of jedi actually survived. Reason I say that is that in my mind Halo and Star Wars are starting to draw parallels; nothing is final and everything drags on.
Really?? I could’ve sworn in the book that the Master Chief was the only Spartan to escape the planet Reach due to him being on the Pillar of Autumn with Captain Keyes. That was the only ship that made it out. The planet was glassed with all of the Spartan IIs still on the surface.
And yeah Halo is in the exact same boat as Star Wars. Being that the main storyline already had an ending, but it is being drawn out by people that are not the original creators to make money. There is plenty enough content in both extended universes to continue the franchise in an interesting way, but nobody wants to do that. They want the main storyline to keep going. Master Chief brings in the dough
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> > > So the book I think it was Linda who was injured and put in the cryo tube, Either way it was written in such a manner that you could explain the Co-op scene when 2 Spartans emerged from the cryostasis pods even though it is pretty much canon that MC was alone in those games. I am not a big fan of retconning but after some disasters in the attempts to continue the series (cough* $tar War$ cough*0 and also how H5 has already retconend MC not being the only Spartan II to survive, I can see an alternate storyline where a whole Spartan fire team made it through Halo 1, 2 and 3 so we can have 4 player co-op for all of MCC.
> >
> > H5 didn’t retcon chief being the last Spartan II because he was never the last Spartan II.
>
> If you played Halo in 2001 you would know that back then he was the only spartan 2 left. Idk when that changed but thats how it was understood back in the day
The fall of reach was released before CE and had some sequels with the same characters that explained how they survived. As he was the only one left doesn’t go against the others surviving because he was the only one they knew was alive, Linda I think was basically dead, and as far as anyone on the pillar of autumn knew the rest of the Spartans could’ve died on reach.
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> > > 2535469655845689;8:
> > > > 2666640315087182;5:
> > > > So the book I think it was Linda who was injured and put in the cryo tube, Either way it was written in such a manner that you could explain the Co-op scene when 2 Spartans emerged from the cryostasis pods even though it is pretty much canon that MC was alone in those games. I am not a big fan of retconning but after some disasters in the attempts to continue the series (cough* $tar War$ cough*0 and also how H5 has already retconend MC not being the only Spartan II to survive, I can see an alternate storyline where a whole Spartan fire team made it through Halo 1, 2 and 3 so we can have 4 player co-op for all of MCC.
> > >
> > > H5 didn’t retcon chief being the last Spartan II because he was never the last Spartan II.
> >
> > If you played Halo in 2001 you would know that back then he was the only spartan 2 left. Idk when that changed but thats how it was understood back in the day
>
> The fall of reach was released before CE and had some sequels with the same characters that explained how they survived. As he was the only one left doesn’t go against the others surviving because he was the only one they knew was alive, Linda I think was basically dead, and as far as anyone on the pillar of autumn knew the rest of the Spartans could’ve died on reach.
right, but then we have halo 2 and 3 with no other spartans, just the chief.
the entire planet of Reach was glassed, and all ships were destroyed except the Autumn. If any of them survived, the UNSC would have known about them, or they would just be floating out in space somewhere the whole time, surviving???
It doesnt make any sense.
They either survived and made it back to Earth or they are dead. This is why we all just assumed the Chief was always the last Spartan, It just doesnt make sense for the other spartans to pop up out of nowhere with 0 explanation to how they survived.
> 2535423661615819;34:
> It didn’t though. If I remember correctly all of the Spartan 2s were originally killed on reach. I could be wrong but this is how I remember it. Its been a long time.
Many Spartan-IIs were killed on Reach, but the fate of Red team (not Halo War’s Red team) was left open. First Strike later confirmed that they did not die, and were still operational on Reach when Chief returned after the events of Halo: CE.
> 2535418979567138;35:
> Actually some did survive (like Linda, Kelly, Fredrick, etc.). I wouldn’t blame anyone for not knowing that, I think it’s 343 lore and not Bungie lore. I personally feel like their survival is kind of goofy since we were supposed to be losing the war, and chief was supposed to be our last hope.
It was confirmed that the other Spartan-IIs survived during Bungie’s tenure. They liked to purport that Chief was the last hope, but the entire time there were other Spartans out there.
I’d say there was still an underlying feeling of desperation even with more Spartans than just Chief running around: Many had already died and the UNSC was running dangerously low on their best warfighting combatants to fight the Covenant.
“Many Spartan-IIs were killed on Reach, but the fate of Red team (not Halo War’s Red team) was left open. First Strike later confirmed that they did not die, and were still operational on Reach when Chief returned after the events of Halo: CE.”
Ah ok. I read all these books back in the day but I forgot the details. I guess they should have done a better job keeping everything canon and together. From my memories I remember Reach being 100% glassed and destroyed.