This is NOT a pro/bash Karan Traviss/343 thread…
Can we blame Karan Traviss for the way the story is going? (I’m in no way a fan of her work FYI, but I have a certain respect for her views as an author). Because thinking about it… The portray of Halsey (and the way the universe is going) seems a bit big for a author to dictate… I personally think 343 is more responsible for the way the books went then most of us think… (Granted the subtle stuff can still be blamed on Traviss: Engineers disappearing mysteriously, elite brute relations… already established characters having some hiccups in personality…) I mean if the portrayal of Halsey had been… just the authors idea I doubt we would have seen her in the Spartan opes the way we did… With 343 wanting to integrate the books more with the games…
(paragraph only added because it looked to much like a wall of text…)
It kinda makes sense the majority of the BIG issues are 343s fault… Also to look at is the portray of Del Rio (A controversially topic on the forums). He appears to have been made for people to hate. I mean it was hinted at in “The Thursday war” that he was incompetent… and then in halo 4… hes a unreasonable moron and Lasky is the real brains (it’s also is obvious he was made to be liked…) that also seems to be 343s doing… The more I look at it… It seems we have 343 more to blame the Traviss for the way the books are going… Granted Traviss has not done a 5 star job… But is it possible that most of her story flaws are due to a ripple effect of the way the story was changed?
(Minor edit) It seems that Karan Traviss was more responsible for the story changes then 343 was… Please note the the post 5 posts down.
(not sure if this belongs in the general discussion thread. Please change to Halo universe thread if needed)
My theory is that 343 gives the author a basic overview of what’s going to happen, then let’s then fill in the blanks.
For “Glasslands”, I think Traviss was told something like “show that Halsey and the Spartans are a controversial subject; at some point Halsey gets arrested”; Traviss being the one who went “Controversial? I can make everyone hate her and portray her arrest as a good thing.”
As for Halsey’s portrayal in Halo 4, it’s not in any way indicative of a “villainous” nature in Halsey:
The prologue interrogation, while giving light to her involvement in the SII program and having someone berate her for it, shows that what she did was nothing more than well-intentioned extremism for the good of humanity. She also shows utter confidence and trust in Master Chief.
In Spartan Ops, she’s slightly more controversial (due mostly to increased focus), but again it never says outright she’s the bad guy. She willingly tries to help solve their problems, she breaks the rules just to get more info to better work with the problems, she risks her life to find out what the Covies are after, etc. I actually like it alot; there’s a layer of complexity the average player can pick up on that hasn’t been there before.
> My theory is that 343 gives the author a basic overview of what’s going to happen, then let’s then fill in the blanks.
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> For “Glasslands”, I think Traviss was told something like “show that Halsey and the Spartans are a controversial subject; at some point Halsey gets arrested”; Traviss being the one who went “Controversial? I can make everyone hate her and portray her arrest as a good thing.”
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> As for Halsey’s portrayal in Halo 4, it’s not in any way indicative of a “villainous” nature in Halsey:
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> The prologue interrogation, while giving light to her involvement in the SII program and having someone berate her for it, shows that what she did was nothing more than well-intentioned extremism for the good of humanity. She also shows utter confidence and trust in Master Chief.
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> In Spartan Ops, she’s slightly more controversial (due mostly to increased focus), <mark>but again it never says outright she’s the bad guy.</mark> She willingly tries to help solve their problems, she breaks the rules just to get more info to better work with the problems, she risks her life to find out what the Covies are after, etc. I actually like it alot; there’s a layer of complexity the average player can pick up on that hasn’t been there before.
No, but Brian Reed does.
I really don’t get what’s going on with the writing since it’s seem really inconsistent.
I just don’t like how halo 4 completly ignored everything before including the races, the way everything was structured while the forerunners books seem to be make more sense or at least the first book so far seem’s to have more structure, frequently keeps the story, past together.
Honestly, I must be a minority, because the direction the universe has taken its changes doesn’t seem all that different to me.
For example, Traviss’ writing style, if sometimes a bit morbid and nitty-gritty, felt more like the Halo universe and familiarity I felt with Nylund than several of the authors inbetween the two.
The Universe still feels fairly fluid to me. Honestly, if anyone has a thread or any sort of list of all these supposed inconsistencies I keep hearing about, I would LOVE to hear every single one that’s been listed between the 343i/Traviss and the Bungie/Nylund establishments. Because I honestly feel like I just must not be seeing them despite being an avid reader and scholar of the series.
> My theory is that 343 gives the author a basic overview of what’s going to happen, then let’s then fill in the blanks.
That is how books are written in general and that is what happened. Prior to Glasslands being published there was a comic con event where they clearly said karen was suppose to introduce key topics, stay away from others and the rest was up to here.
343I shouldn’t get the blame because they didn’t know exactly what karen was to write and it isn’t like they can fire her after reading something they didn’t write because of the contract they have. Karen’s CV looks from what she was worked with (Starwars, Gears of war) but unless you are major fans of both universes you wouldn’t be aware of how poorly her novels were received.
> > My theory is that 343 gives the author a basic overview of what’s going to happen, then let’s then fill in the blanks.
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> That is how books are written in general and that is what happened. Prior to Glasslands being published there was a comic con event where they clearly said karen was suppose to introduce key topics, stay away from others and the rest was up to here.
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> 343I shouldn’t get the blame because they didn’t know exactly what karen was to write and it isn’t like they can fire her after reading something they didn’t write because of the contract they have. Karen’s CV looks from what she was worked with (Starwars, Gears of war) but unless you are major fans of both universes you wouldn’t be aware of how poorly her novels were received.
Thank you for this little tidbit… Ill add an edit in my post.
But are you sure? It seems rather ludicrous to give that much power to change the story to an already controversially author. (I read her entire series of books in star wars)… to my knowledge she doesn’t even read anything about halo or its back story… (I don’t think any author should really have this power… not just Karan Traviss) I highly doubt they would have given anyone that much say in the story that’s not even a huge halo person… (I’m not doubting your post… . it just seems to me rather stupid for 343 to do that).
Although from a certain point of view you could blame 343 for the way the story went anyway… (because they let the dog loose so to speak…)
Not much to say other than that I agree. I have a suspicion that many of the people who are calling the shots now at 343i were fans who thought that Halo 2 was the worst in the series and that Halo 3 had a horrible resolution just from looking at their story decisions as of late. I’ll need to wait and see how 343i handle the fiction in their next big lore project once Traviss isn’t involved, to see what they look like without her. Judging from Halo 4 is hard because it is a fairly small and self-contained narrative.
I could easily say that Halo Evolutions and Cryptum demonstrate what they can envision, but I think that we are no longer dealing with the same 343i that gave us Halo Evolutions and who set the Forerunner trilogy on its way. Back then there was only 20 or so people. Since evolving from that small group of devoted individuals out of Microsoft’s Franchise Development Department into a studio of over 250, something has changed, and it has been reflected somewhat in their fiction; an example is The Return versus Kilo 5. They developed something interesting with that story, with an Elite who was not a stereotype; the Great Schism being a 6 year long war of attrition with heavy Sangheili loses in the early years (As opposed to a 2 month long skirmish and then back to the status quo); the Sangheili who only had issues with military applications of Forerunner technology and philosophical questions (As opposed to being horribly inept at everything); then abandoned it 2 years later with Kilo 5. What makes me really cynical about it is how Kilo 5 uses these scenarios to elevate Humanity, and put it at further odds with the Covenant, whereas before such a thing wouldn’t have been possible.
Maybe it’s the pressure of making Halo 4 that changed them, and made them realize that they need to the Covenant back again to satisfy the gameplay. So therefore this may have caused them to abandon that original vision for the fiction and commission the Kilo 5 books to explain why and how the Covenant came back with the Elites once again at its head.
As for Halsey…I have no clue what they are planning there. I largely stopped caring about that after Spartan Ops. Brian Green admitting that he dislikes the character though probably has something to do with it.
> > > My theory is that 343 gives the author a basic overview of what’s going to happen, then let’s then fill in the blanks.
> >
> > That is how books are written in general and that is what happened. Prior to Glasslands being published there was a comic con event where they clearly said karen was suppose to introduce key topics, stay away from others and the rest was up to here.
> >
> >
> > 343I shouldn’t get the blame because they didn’t know exactly what karen was to write and it isn’t like they can fire her after reading something they didn’t write because of the contract they have. Karen’s CV looks from what she was worked with (Starwars, Gears of war) but unless you are major fans of both universes you wouldn’t be aware of how poorly her novels were received.
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> Thank you for this little tidbit… Ill add an edit in my post.
>
> But are you sure? It seems rather ludicrous to give that much power to change the story to an already controversially author. (I read her entire series of books in star wars)… to my knowledge she doesn’t even read anything about halo or its back story… (I don’t think any author should really have this power… not just Karan Traviss) I highly doubt they would have given anyone that much say in the story that’s not even a huge halo person… (I’m not doubting your post… . it just seems to me rather stupid for 343 to do that).
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> Although from a certain point of view you could blame 343 for the way the story went anyway… (because they let the dog loose so to speak…)
Again, it was at the comicon just before GL that everything was brought up and stated. They told karen to include such and such elements (infinity,spartan 4’s,etc) and avoid others leaving the rest to her. I think Karen could be an amazing writer if they have the leash choking her.
I don’t have much of an issue with the kilo-5 series, but with halo 4 I felt was a little off in story telling. Everything seemed super basic. No major background stories on the new characters excluding lasky, no light shedding on the spartan IVs and the storm covenant, and some other little holes in story. No offense but it Seems like 343I is going super commercial with the series, and more concerned about their name other than halo. As well as ditching the older ideas and implementing their new ideas like a bossy little kid in the sandbox. Halo 4 is a good game but it could’ve ben so much better if they added the best of both trilogies together. They have such a big universe in front of them yet so small, so simple. Understandably it is their first game so I will give them that. But I just hope they don’t neglect the Goldie oldies of halo of which made the game fun, and add their cool new ideas as well. I love halo, I still have faith in the game series and 343. And I wish them the best and the wisdom of making a better game.
> Everything seemed super basic. No major background stories on the new characters excluding lasky,
Did You play halo CE when it was first released? Because you could say the exact same for that. This is game one people i don’t understand why you are expecting so much detail in the first game.
> > Everything seemed super basic. No major background stories on the new characters excluding lasky,
>
> Did You play halo CE when it was first released? Because you could say the exact same for that. This is game one people i don’t understand why you are expecting so much detail in the first game.
Indeed.
Still, it’d be nice if we could have campaigns longer than 8 hours. Would certainly give the writers more time to tell the story.
> > Everything seemed super basic. No major background stories on the new characters excluding lasky,
>
> Did You play halo CE when it was first released? Because you could say the exact same for that. This is game one people i don’t understand why you are expecting so much detail in the first game.
This. This is something I’ve been emphasizing since H4’s release. People ding H4 for being vague or otherwise bad at explaining the situation, but I think it gives enough context to understand the story.
I would argue Ce is the most vague game of the series from a standalone storytelling point. The opening scene and first level hardly explained anything about the situation. Now, put in context with Nylund’s extended canon… it was a great opening.
I always kind of assumed that decisions regarding the story/universe were made collectively, then handed to Frank O’Connor to be fine-tuned in a way that made sense and didn’t contradict previous canon or fiction, then Frank would communicate with the authors\developers throughout the creative process and ensure that everything goes smoothly.
In regards to Halo 4’s story, I too felt that too much went unexplained, and it relied to heavily on the fiction to get a full understanding of what was going on. I believe they even acknowledged this in the GDC panel, so they know they dropped the ball a bit.
> I always kind of assumed that decisions regarding the story/universe were made collectively, then handed to Frank O’Connor to be fine-tuned in a way that made sense and didn’t contradict previous canon or fiction, then Frank would communicate with the authors\developers throughout the creative process and ensure that everything goes smoothly.
>
> In regards to Halo 4’s story, I too felt that too much went unexplained, and it relied to heavily on the fiction to get a full understanding of what was going on. I believe they even acknowledged this in the GDC panel, so they know they dropped the ball a bit.
This quote about Frank is true to an extent. He has access to the Halo Bible, handed down from Bungie to him. I think he alone has access to it. So in a sense, this is still Bungie’s story for all we know; we don’t know how far the Halo Bible went.
Though again, to be fair, Halo as an entire history of this vagueness. Anybody who declines this idea is being ignorant to years of familiarization with the original trilogy. I for one have held on to my memories of playing the first two games before I ever read the books; I didn’t understand terribly much of what was happening at all. I got the gist, but a very vague gist. Our familiarity can sometimes blind us to how vague the previous installments were. For a standalone that made the most sense, it would probably have to be Halo: ODST or Halo: Reach to be honest.
It’s interesting to think about 343 still going off Bungie’s playbook. I mean we did see Requiem at the end of H3 so who knows! I would like to know where the line between 343/Bungie’s Halo universe lies exactly. One thing we do know is 343 decided to blow up Requiem on a whim, so who knows who is calling the shots.
I think Halo 4’s problem stemmed from 343 trying to create their own vision of Halo, and distancing itself from the Original Trilogy. This is understandable, and I’m pleased with the new direction, but while other games answered questions left unanswered by previous installments, H4 seemed like it refused to acknowledge the past and give enough filler regarding Storm Covies, The Arbiter,what happened while Chief was in cryo etc. Combine this with the Terminals not being available In-game, deliberately trying to tie-in the fiction(but still appeal to casuals), and having SpOps still in production upon release, I think the Story was just stretched too thin.
I reckon that’s because we must view it more like CE than a direct continuation. The other games will expand more on the why’s and the what’s.
I do agree on some points you make though certainly, and it is a cause for curiousity as to how Bungie is distinguished from 343i for eachother’s parts in the story bible. From what I am led to believe, Bungie easily had the heaviest hand in describing the Covenant races, their cultures, and histories, whereas 343i may have expanded more on Forerunners in ways that Bungie had just left blank at that point.
The Precursor-Forerunner relation, story, and tragedy could quite likely be a synthesis between the two and it’s perhaps the most interesting relationship in the Haloverse, if only for the underlying themes.
Personally, I"m more intrigued to see where Halo 5 will go now that 343i’s got boots on the ground.
> > I always kind of assumed that decisions regarding the story/universe were made collectively, then handed to Frank O’Connor to be fine-tuned in a way that made sense and didn’t contradict previous canon or fiction, then Frank would communicate with the authors\developers throughout the creative process and ensure that everything goes smoothly.
> >
> > In regards to Halo 4’s story, I too felt that too much went unexplained, and it relied to heavily on the fiction to get a full understanding of what was going on. I believe they even acknowledged this in the GDC panel, so they know they dropped the ball a bit.
>
> This quote about Frank is true to an extent. He has access to the Halo Bible, handed down from Bungie to him. I think he alone has access to it.
The Infamous “Halo Bible” was nothing more than a few sheets of paper with scribble scribble everywhere. Again, Bungie BSd nearly everything they said to us. There was a Video with KiKi Explaining what the “halo bible” was and how they had to pick what they wanted from it and then pretty much write it. So 343I actually has a Halo Bible and plan for where the series is going.
> > > I always kind of assumed that decisions regarding the story/universe were made collectively, then handed to Frank O’Connor to be fine-tuned in a way that made sense and didn’t contradict previous canon or fiction, then Frank would communicate with the authors\developers throughout the creative process and ensure that everything goes smoothly.
> > >
> > > In regards to Halo 4’s story, I too felt that too much went unexplained, and it relied to heavily on the fiction to get a full understanding of what was going on. I believe they even acknowledged this in the GDC panel, so they know they dropped the ball a bit.
> >
> > This quote about Frank is true to an extent. He has access to the Halo Bible, handed down from Bungie to him. I think he alone has access to it.
>
> The Infamous “Halo Bible” was nothing more than a few sheets of paper with scribble scribble everywhere. Again, Bungie BSd nearly everything they said to us. There was a Video with KiKi Explaining what the “halo bible” was and how they had to pick what they wanted from it and then pretty much write it. So 343I actually has a Halo Bible and plan for where the series is going.
I don’t know about that anymore actually. It is all contradictory.
This source tells us that a Halo story bible did in fact exist prior to March 2003, and included extensive background material for at least the first game including details on Master Chief’s childhood, Catherine Halsey, AI creation, the Spartan-II program and information on other technologies, events and characters. It was also apparently quite large, indicating a lot more than just the above content. Bungie it seemed only created and used fiction that was immediately relevant to their games so hadn’t even thought about how the Spartans came to be in any great detail; nor anything about the Covenant either until they came to fill those details in during Halo 2. This is where the idea of them only have rough notes on the history comes from I think. Only the things relevant to the game did Bungie themselves expand on. The rest was left to Brannon Boren and Eric Trautmann, two contractors who worked for Microsoft’s Franchise Development Division. (Personally I think this is the main reason for the wide gap between Bungie games and Microsoft licensed fiction, i.e. The EU.) Together they filled in the rest of the fiction and created most, if not all, of the details and characters which the novels are based on.
In 2008, Starlight Runner Entertainment were hired by what would eventually be known as 343i to put together a second edition of the Halo story bible (Despite them acting like it was the first) that I can only guess would be adding new content from the recent novels (Ghosts of Onyx, Contact Harvest, The Cole Protocol) and the new Bungie generated content from Halo 2 and 3 to the pre-existing bible, because there was already a version in existence. Their job was to collate all of the Halo fiction into one coherent and easy to understand source which would help enforce continuity, and in some cases decided what was canon and what was not. So I think that we can be sure that quite a few things have changed as the mythos went back and forth between Boren/Trautmann and Bungie, before being passed to Starlight and then finally to 343i. Bungie’s original vision for the story was almost certainly not completely codified in the first bible to be given to 343i, and even if it was, that one has been altered in some way by Starlight on its way to 343i. It wasn’t a case of Bungie handing their written vision of the story to 343i. All this pass the parcel business really shows. And now we are possibly looking at another alteration to the backstory with The Return’s account of events being overwritten by kilo-5 in some ways.
So if the halo Bible Existed from the start Why were there such drastic changes to the plots surrounding Halo 2 and 3?