What was wrong with sprint?

Games Halo 5: Guardians
1

I’ve heard some people saying that sprint is really random and others say is unskilled. But what is the problem with sprint. At first I made the assumption that it was because players got angry when their target starts to turn tail and runs when they are about to kill them. If it’s really that big of a problem then should you go after the player that turns around and sprints away instead of pulling your own hair out?

If that’s not what’s going on then please explain why?

If sprint does get removed they should at least increase the movement speed.

2

There are 2 general categories of problems that people talk about:

  1. It affects map design, which has a bunch of other secondary effects.

  2. It allows players to run away that otherwise should die.

A lot of the threads focus on #2, which I think (personal opinion) is really irrelevant. Without sprint, a player just needs to stay a bit closer to cover and he can accomplish the same thing. Many players would be able to make that adjustment in a snap, so the net effect is minor.

The big issue with sprint is #1, and it is an intractable one.

First, let’s make sure we know what we’re talking about with sprint. Sprint does not mean you just move faster. “Sprint” is a feature that allows faster movement while sacrificing the ability to perform combat actions. It is the second part which causes the problem.

Jumps have to be designed with a certain leaping ability and player speed in mind. Cover has to be designed the same way. Same with map scale.

So when designing a map, the designer has to choose whether to design a particular feature with the sprint speed or the base speed in mind. If designed for the sprint speed, then it works well while sprinting - but players can’t engage in combat while sprinting, so it is suboptimal for combat. If it’s designed for the base speed, then it works well when players are engaged in combat, but allows players to suddenly sprint away and escape combat in unintended and suboptimal ways.

There is no way to design around this limitation. It may seem small, but because it affects map design - and the map can only be optimized for one of the speeds - it has a tremendous, hidden effect on gameplay. It even affects weapon ranges and other characteristics through its effect on map size, which affects the average engagement range. So it truly affects everything.

I am not opposed to a periodic “boost” function - which allows short bursts of speed like thruster pack or something, but doesn’t disable combat functions - but a long-duration sprint function guarantees suboptimal map design. There’s no way around that.

I’m sure you’ll get several specific examples to explain all of this if this thread stays alive.

3

I IZ CAB0OSE provided a good explanation.

One thing that I like to point out is that sprint in Halo is basically just a placebo. The maps are made larger specifically to compensate for it, so even though you move faster, you don’t travel faster. In fact, when a map is designed around sprint, you travel slower on average, because (as CABOOSE pointed out) you can’t constantly be sprinting.

In some cases, maps can be designed in total ignorance of sprint and still work. A buddy of mine did a 1:1 remake of Lockout called “Brownout”, and in my personal opinion it plays better than the sprint-stretched Shutout. However, there are a huge number of maps and situations that can’t work (or would be hard to make work) without adjusting for sprint. Objective games’ attack/defense play is one case that comes to mind: when the attackers can reach the defenders’ base within two seconds of spawning, it doesn’t offer much breathing room.

That’s why sprint is mostly a placebo in developer-made maps, and it’s why it kinda has be a placebo if it’s allowed to exist at all.

4

First two posts hit the nail right on the head.

Get rid of sprint.

5

It benefits poor decision making. Make a dumb move? That’s OK, just run away and hide. Most of all it’s pointless. Make the maps smaller and give the base movement speed a bump and the same goal is achieved.

6

Both I IZ CABOOSE and DavidJCobb have explained it perfectly.

In a Twitch shooter like Call of Duty, Sprint is a useful feature since the killtimes are so low that you can’t run away in battle. The game relies mainly on seeing the enemy before they see you, so Sprint is an effective risk vs reward tool. In addition, there’s no jumping in a Call of Duty game, so map design does not really get affected by Sprint in any way.

However, in Halo, kill-times are much higher, and the game therefore relies a lot more on mobility, especially with jumps being a part of the formula. I don’t really need to go into detail about this, as it was done before. However, the only reason that Halo Reach and Halo 4 have Sprint was because “all the cool games are doing it”. Halo does not benefit from Sprint, and putting it in solely to be like the other games is the wrong attitude to take. Should Halo not try to be successful by standing out from the crowd rather than becoming just another CoD-like game?

And you say that, if Sprint were to be removed, that the base movement speed needs to be sped up. Why? If the maps were smaller, as they were in Halo 1-3, then there would be absolutely no need to have players moving around more quickly.

7

Caboose and David stated this perfectly. Sprint affects all these things. Map design, game play mechanics and so on. The only way to have sprint is to tailor to it completely. I for one would like sprint removed though.

I don’t understand what’s wrong with not having sprint. So many people ask why sprint should be removed and I always see answers like these that give a very good reason. However can anyone even give an equal reason as to why sprint should stay. Those who advocate the removal of sprint have made their case and they have made their case well. I haven’t seen the opposite however.

~343i ditch sprint please.

8

I don’t buy that H4’s bloated map size is due to sprint. I argue it is bad map design and direction that is to blame, not sprint. Look at the vehicle tracks that encircle almost every map, or the 3-base dominion maps.

Think about it. If you added H4 sprint to CE-H3, non-invasion Reach maps, then it becomes more of a self-regulating feature. I don’t think it would be abused as often because you’re just as likely to sprint into a wall, obstacle, or opponent. Smaller corridors and tighter turns = less effective sprint.

That hypothesis aside, I wouldn’t mind if Sprint disappeared. BUT, if Sprint came back in Guardians, there are some things that can be done to improve it:

  • Add escalator to speed in order to reach max acceleration. Benefit: a sprint becomes a dedicated action whose function is to cover large distances; less abuse over shorter distances because the effect is negligible.

  • Add deceleration time or a skid if you stop on a dime. Come out of it with a slight handicap. Benefit: small vulnerability will make people think twice about overusing it.

  • Increase turning radius. Benefit: If sprint is relegated to more of a straight line, then running for cover becomes more complicated. Also, it doesn’t become a free pass to roam anywhere you like at top speed; You need an objective in mind and you need to plan before committing to it.

9

> Think about it. If you added H4 sprint to CE-H3, non-invasion Reach maps, then it becomes more of a self-regulating feature. I don’t think it would be abused as often because you’re just as likely to sprint into a wall, obstacle, or opponent. Smaller corridors and tighter turns = less effective sprint.

Sprinting across a normal size map would be the same as walking across an extremely small map. Both are going to lead to very hectic and undesirable gameplay. Sprinting across the map might pose risks. Sprinting away wouldn’t as you were likely to die anyways.

Can we have large maps without sprint? Of course. Halo CE had Hang em High, Halo 3 has the Pit, there’s several other examples. That doesn’t mean sprint doesn’t lead to larger maps. If maps aren’t made larger to accomodate sprint then sprint stops becoming a placebo and something that has a significant impact on the game.

> - Add escalator to speed in order to reach max acceleration. Benefit: a sprint becomes a dedicated action whose function is to cover large distances; less abuse over shorter distances because the effect is negligible.

I’d actually prefer the opposite. Sprint becomes a very temporary short boost of speed, meaning you can use it to close the gap offensively but can’t use it to flee long distances.

If you remove the downsides to coming out of sprint, you also make it less significant. I.e. I’m not totally -Yoinked!- because the enemy caught me with my weapon down, since I can raise my weapon instantly.

> However can anyone even give an equal reason as to why sprint should stay

Sprint arguably adds immersion for some people.

Sprint lets us increase map size without decreasing pace or affecting strafe speed, good for games where you want there to be plenty of vehicles or long-range encounters.

These things can be good for games in general, just not Halo.

10

> the only reason that Halo Reach and Halo 4 have Sprint was because “all the cool games are doing it”. Halo does not benefit from Sprint, and putting it in solely to be like the other games is the wrong attitude to take. Should Halo not try to be successful by standing out from the crowd rather than becoming just another CoD-like game?

I agree fully that Halo must be a standout, but I think that applies more to Ordnance, Instant Spawns, Loadouts, and Kill Cams than to Sprint.

Perhaps I have grown too accustomed to sprint across all shooters (which I greatly enjoy the variety), but going back to Halo 3 (which I also greatly enjoy) feels slow. Now I know there are several factors in that; base movement is different, the game is “floaty”, weapons are projectile and slower. But I think Sprint really does help pick up the pace.

Now, it’s also quite true that there are other options for increasing the speed. For one, Halo 3 is simply an old game. It is bound to feel different than new ones in terms of aiming sensitivity, base movement speed, etc. etc. etc. But I also think Sprint isn’t inherently bad.

Would I be upset if it was removed? Probably not. But I don’t mind it staying either. I think it’s something that can be worked with and eventually gotten right.

11

They’ve provided good reasons above. I still think small maps shouldn’t be built around sprint. You can add obstacles to doing it if it really affects map design that badly. For example, a true lockout remake would punish it with death by falling.

But I’d be fine if they upped the movement speed.

12

> The maps are made larger specifically to compensate for it, so even though you move faster, you don’t travel faster.

Question: what increase in map size?

Unless you want to break out the meter tape you’d be hard pressed to find any significant increase in scale (let alone a meaningful increase that can be said to have an impact on the quality of the game through level design) that tracks with the development of sprint. Narrows is comparable in total scale to Solace, Zanzibar to Complex, Haven to Guardian, Exile to Terminal, Vortex to Headlong, and so on and so forth and even if there’s larger things in the DLC they’re going to have their work cut out for them to match Sandtrap, Avalanche, and Containment.

It’s a reasonable point to make if supportable with how the games have actually developed but I can’t see that it is. Maybe there’s a bit more of a focus on BTB and mid-sized maps than there used to be but that can be easily attributed to shifting tastes, not the influence of this movement mechanic (which IMO has a much greater impact on the smaller scales of cover utilization, not the larger scale of map size and layout.)

13

> Would I be upset if it was removed? Probably not. But I don’t mind it staying either. I think it’s something that can be worked with and eventually gotten right.

It can be reworked and gotten right by turning it into a very temporary boost . . . and boost is not sprint (by definition).

There is no way to retain the definition of sprint (speed increase during which combat actions are disallowed) without causing the undesirable effects listed above.

14

> > The maps are made larger specifically to compensate for it, so even though you move faster, you don’t travel faster.
>
> Question: what increase in map size?
>
> Unless you want to break out the meter tape you’d be hard pressed to find any significant increase in scale (let alone a meaningful increase that can be said to have an impact on the quality of the game through level design) that tracks with the development of sprint. Narrows is comparable in total scale to Solace, Zanzibar to Complex, Haven to Guardian, Exile to Terminal, Vortex to Headlong, and so on and so forth and even if there’s larger things in the DLC they’re going to have their work cut out for them to match Sandtrap, Avalanche, and Containment.
>
> It’s a reasonable point to make if supportable with how the games have actually developed but I can’t see that it is.

Actually, no. I did experiments for Haven and Guardian and found out that running through Guardian takes the exact same time as sprinting through Haven, which of course implies that Haven is larger, and the map size was adjusted for sprint. Same would probably apply to the other maps you mentioned. Notable exceptions are Skyline, Ragnarok, and The Pit. The two latter are remakes and hence the original size was maintained.

Additionally, here’s a quote by a designer at 343i from a Gamasutra article:

“In Halo 3, sprinting was impossible. In Halo: Reach, sprinting was a selectable armor ability. In Halo 4, everyone’s at it, and the maps have grown to compensate.”

So yes, map sizes have increased to accommodate for sprint.

15

It also separates movement from aiming/shooting, which destroys the smoothness Halo is known for.

16

I got no complains about it. At least I can get to where I want to go like to a vehicle faster before I get killed or gets stolen by the enemy team and running into cover from being shot at.

17

> Actually, no. I did experiments for Haven and Guardian and found out that running through Guardian takes the exact same time as sprinting through Haven, which of course implies that Haven is larger, and the map size was adjusted for sprint.

Or that overall speed was adjusted for sprint. Large-scale map design still does not necessarily have to factor into this. Another, non-scalable, measure would seem to be required (is distance still displayed in the sniper rifle?) because as someone who has to concern himself with being accurately quoted on a professional basis I don’t trust the developers own words (since there is a very appreciable difference between what any one of us believes of reality, or rather how any of us portrays it in sentence format, and how reality actually played out even when we’re directly involved with it. There’s intention and perception, and then there’s what happened.) :stuck_out_tongue:

Anyway I’d still like to make the point that between how the map is structured overall and how its structured at the level of cover placement, sprint probably has a much more significant impact on the latter than the former. Even if steps were taken by the devs to build sprint into the layout, how it enables the player to move between small areas is much more dramatic than how it ultimately plays out against total map flow.

18

I’m going to go out on a limb and say Skyline is the most popular map in Halo 4 maybe alongside Daybreak. Both are designed quite similarly to maps from the previous games. Small-medium size and Skyline specifically is made for 4v4 games. Sprint seems to work fine. The map being small usually means the impact would be greater and everyone assumes that is automatically a bad thing.

However, on Skyline and Daybreak sprint actually gets to function like its supposed to. A boost to get you there a bit faster in a short amount of time. Yet the maps aren’t overly chaotic. There is plenty of space in general to maneuver, but sprinting too much will bring you straight into the face of your enemy. There are natural boundaries that the game brings that make sprint less of an impact on a map that would, according to other arguments, break the map. Overall though it just speeds the game up.

There’s a little chaos factor sure, but I still don’t see how designing maps for base movement speed and still having sprint is necessarily a bad thing. The game corrects the mistakes it might make. Not every map has to be big to accommodate the “placebo” of sprinting. Let it do its job and design the maps properly without it.

19

> If it’s really that big of a problem then should you go after the player that turns around and sprints away instead of pulling your own hair out?

Well, the thing is that you need to sprint to keep up with a player who’s escaping with sprint. While sprinting though, you can’t shoot, so in that case there’s little point in chasing. If you stop sprinting to shoot and your prey continues to sprint you’ll pretty quick lose sight of him/her. Provided it’s not a loong straight corridor.

In the rare cases that I decide to chase a sprinting escapee, I often imagine the Benny Hill theme.

> If sprint does get removed they should at least increase the movement speed.

If you feel slow then another way to make you feel faster is to increase FoV.

> Or that overall speed was adjusted for sprint.

Halo 3’s movement speed is said to be 2,25 units per second.
Halo 4’s movement speed is said to be 2,2 units per second.

> Large-scale map design still does not necessarily have to factor into this.

I’d have to agree that larger maps do not have to take sprint into account as much as smaller maps in terms of scale. However jumps are one thing that can’t really be ignored, or corridor complexity due to the cat and mouse games that can happen. You know chasing someone while you can’t shoot compared to chasing someone you can shoot, when they’re in your line of fire throughout the chase.

Then again, large scale maps tend to have other aspects to them that allow faster travel. Teleporters, man cannons and vehicles.

> Another, non-scalable, measure would seem to be required (is distance still displayed in the sniper rifle?) because as someone who has to concern himself with being accurately quoted on a professional basis I don’t trust the developers own words (since there is a very appreciable difference between what any one of us believes of reality, or rather how any of us portrays it in sentence format, and how reality actually played out even when we’re directly involved with it. There’s intention and perception, and then there’s what happened.) :stuck_out_tongue:

Forge is an excellent place for measurments in terms of units.

The calculations I did based on tsassi’s measurments showed that the difference between Haven and Guardian in overview area was that Haven is 60% larger than Guardian, and that was overview. While both maps have two floors, Haven’s lower floor is almost as large as the upper floor while Guardians lower floor isn’t.

I also find it hard to interpret the developer quote in any other way than that maps were increased in size to accomodate sprint. Because it’s from a map designer, talking about map design, being quoted about a movement based feature.

> I’m going to go out on a limb and say Skyline is the most popular map in Halo 4 maybe alongside Daybreak. Both are designed quite similarly to maps from the previous games. Small-medium size and Skyline specifically is made for 4v4 games. Sprint seems to work fine. The map being small usually means the impact would be greater and everyone assumes that is automatically a bad thing.

It’s still designed with sprint in mind as is only slightly smaller than Haven.

> However, on Skyline and Daybreak sprint actually gets to function like its supposed to. A boost to get you there a bit faster in a short amount of time. Yet the maps aren’t overly chaotic. There is plenty of space in general to maneuver, but sprinting too much will bring you straight into the face of your enemy. There are natural boundaries that the game brings that make sprint less of an impact on a map that would, according to other arguments, break the map. Overall though it just speeds the game up.

Actually, that again is an illusion as the map is designed with sprint in mind. If you’re intended to get to one area to another in a specific time, say 6 seconds with sprint, it’s no different than not having sprint in the game and going from one area to another in 6 seconds. That’s the way the map was designed.

So no, you do not get there “faster”. Well, as default movement speed is slower, in that sense you get there “faster”, but compared to a map designed in a game with no sprint, you do not get there “faster”.

> There’s a little chaos factor sure, but I still don’t see how designing maps for base movement speed and still having sprint is necessarily a bad thing. The game corrects the mistakes it might make. Not every map has to be big to accommodate the “placebo” of sprinting. Let it do its job and design the maps properly without it.

But designing a map without sprint in mind can have sprint make it play alot differently than what was intended, well, it will make it play a lot differently. Pitfall plays a lot differently than the Pit.

I’d also question the decision to implement a feature of the magnitude sprint is, only to have it limited to the point where it has little use, especially when there are many other ways to make players get to other areas “faster”. Teleporters, man cannons and vehicles.

20

> > Actually, no. I did experiments for Haven and Guardian and found out that running through Guardian takes the exact same time as sprinting through Haven, which of course implies that Haven is larger, and the map size was adjusted for sprint.
>
> Or that overall speed was adjusted for sprint.

Bluntly: Scale can be defined as the time required to cross the map.

If a map that previously required 15 seconds to cross at base speed now requires 15 seconds to cross using sprint, then that map has been (by definition) scaled up. You could say your Spartan was 2,000 feet tall and the map was 150 miles across, or that your Spartan was only 2 inches tall and the map was 66 feet across, and both will look identical on your TV.

Since the rest of your argument flows from misunderstanding + ignoring explicit statements from the developer because they run counter to what you want to believe, I will stop there.