What do you guys think the unsc could have won the battle at earth if they had the infinity? Also, could’ve the Human-Covenant war been ended quicker if they had the infinity?
You can answer either one works for you want to.
<mark>mod edit: moved to Halo Universe</mark>
A lot of people really enjoy trying to downplay the Infinity because they don’t like the idea of human supremacy, but the fact that the Infinity casually put a massive hole in the MA, when Earths entire ODP network couldn’t even scratch it (the same ODP’s that would wreck the Covenants best ships with ease), or the fact that the Infinity solo’d Juls entire fleet at Requiem, should really tell you about the massive power gap between the Infinity and the Covenant fleets. The only ship that could even come close to doing anything is the Dreadnought, but that didn’t arrive until very late in the battle anyway.
So the answer is yes, the UNSC would’ve won Earth if they had post-war Infinity, and quite easily too.
> 2535470069620662;1:
> What do you guys think the unsc could have won the battle at earth if they had the infinity? Also, could’ve the Human-Covenant war been ended quicker if they had the infinity?
>
> You can answer either one works for you want to.
>
> mod edit: moved to Halo Universe
Just the Infinity or everything that comes with i.e. the dozen or so frigates docked inside and the compliment of Spartans and other military assets? Also can I choose to have someone competent at the helm, not Soy boy Lasky?
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> > 2535470069620662;1:
> > What do you guys think the unsc could have won the battle at earth if they had the infinity? Also, could’ve the Human-Covenant war been ended quicker if they had the infinity?
> >
> > You can answer either one works for you want to.
> >
> > mod edit: moved to Halo Universe
>
> Just the Infinity or everything that comes with i.e. the dozen or so frigates docked inside and the compliment of Spartans and other military assets? Also can I choose to have someone competent at the helm, not Soy boy Lasky?
Why do you think lasky is incompetent?
> 2535433369016861;2:
> A lot of people really enjoy trying to downplay the Infinity because they don’t like the idea of human supremacy, but the fact that the Infinity casually put a massive hole in the MA, when Earths entire ODP network couldn’t even scratch it (the same ODP’s that would wreck the Covenants best ships with ease), or the fact that the Infinity solo’d Juls entire fleet at Requiem, should really tell you about the massive power gap between the Infinity and the Covenant fleets. The only ship that could even come close to doing anything is the Dreadnought, but that didn’t arrive until very late in the battle anyway.
>
> So the answer is yes, the UNSC would’ve won Earth if they had post-war Infinity, and quite easily too.
Curious on why you think this, as the Infinity is only one ship. One ship against fleets of at least dozens of ships arriving with others using slipspace to bypass orbital defenses. People tend to forget that the hole it punched in the didact’s ship was only in the thinnest part of the ship, we also see when the chief fly in, there’s no damage on the interior, only that single outside hull piece.The cut-scene wholly appears to show the mac rounds fired vaporized themselves and the outside panel, that was it.
As for Jul’s fleet at Requiem, it was a ragtag group made up of at least two crusiers over a thousand years old, a single assault carrier, and the Covenant equal of Coast Guard cutters in the form of light cruisers. We have not seen the Infinity face the complete might of a Covenant fleet. While yes the Infinity would have been useful during the battle, it would have been quickly targeted by multiple enemy ships and destroyed through sheer firepower and numbers.
The Covenant in Halo 4 and 5 are not the force they were in 2552. Jul’s Covenant is more of a ragtag army of terrorists, not an empire. Considering that, the technology that was used by Jul’s Covenant was too brittle to withstand the Infinity at Requiem. It was far weaker than the Prophets’ Covenant as they had to rely on older technology.
My opinion is that, by itself, Infinity would have been too outnumbered by the OG Covenant’s forces used against Earth. However, if you take the resources used by the UNSC, along with the alliance with the Elites toward the end of the battle, and add those pieces to the Infinity, then the UNSC would have won by a large margin.
> 2535433369016861;2:
> A lot of people really enjoy trying to downplay the Infinity because they don’t like the idea of human supremacy, but the fact that the Infinity casually put a massive hole in the MA, when Earths entire ODP network couldn’t even scratch it (the same ODP’s that would wreck the Covenants best ships with ease), or the fact that the Infinity solo’d Juls entire fleet at Requiem, should really tell you about the massive power gap between the Infinity and the Covenant fleets. The only ship that could even come close to doing anything is the Dreadnought, but that didn’t arrive until very late in the battle anyway.
>
> So the answer is yes, the UNSC would’ve won Earth if they had post-war Infinity, and quite easily too.
And a lot of people exaggerate its power. It didn’t casually put a hole in the MA, it used its most powerful cannons to create a hole barely large enough for a fighter to pass through, and even then it was fixed almost immediately. All that is said about the ODPs is ‘MAC defences ineffective’. This doesn’t mean that those shots weren’t denting the MA’s armour too, they just didn’t slow the ship down seeing as any hull breach is repaired seconds later.
And as someone has stated, Jul’s fleet is a ragtag gang of whatever ships he can get his hands on. A couple of CAS carriers, in my mind, would be able to to take on the Infinity. In fact, I’m sure in one of the comics a pair of CAS and their supporting craft fight the Infinity to a standstill. Considering how many assault carriers were at Earth (we don’t have solid numbers, but there were likely dozens) and it suddenly seems like the Infinity is completely outgunned.
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> > 2535433369016861;2:
> > A lot of people really enjoy trying to downplay the Infinity because they don’t like the idea of human supremacy, but the fact that the Infinity casually put a massive hole in the MA, when Earths entire ODP network couldn’t even scratch it (the same ODP’s that would wreck the Covenants best ships with ease), or the fact that the Infinity solo’d Juls entire fleet at Requiem, should really tell you about the massive power gap between the Infinity and the Covenant fleets. The only ship that could even come close to doing anything is the Dreadnought, but that didn’t arrive until very late in the battle anyway.
> >
> > So the answer is yes, the UNSC would’ve won Earth if they had post-war Infinity, and quite easily too.
>
> Curious on why you think this, as the Infinity is only one ship. One ship against fleets of at least dozens of ships arriving with others using slipspace to bypass orbital defenses. People tend to forget that the hole it punched in the didact’s ship was only in the thinnest part of the ship, we also see when the chief fly in, there’s no damage on the interior, only that single outside hull piece.The cut-scene wholly appears to show the mac rounds fired vaporized themselves and the outside panel, that was it.
>
> As for Jul’s fleet at Requiem, it was a ragtag group made up of at least two crusiers over a thousand years old, a single assault carrier, and the Covenant equal of Coast Guard cutters in the form of light cruisers. We have not seen the Infinity face the complete might of a Covenant fleet. While yes the Infinity would have been useful during the battle, it would have been quickly targeted by multiple enemy ships and destroyed through sheer firepower and numbers.
It’s not just one ship though, it’s 11 ships (the Infinity and it’s sub-vessels), as well as 300 ODP’s, and also over a hundred other UNSC ships. An overpowered ship like the Infinity would completely change the entire course of the Battle. For example, personally I think Regrets fleet did extremely well canonically considering how outnumbered they were, with that being said though, they wouldn’t have even had a chance if the Infinity flanked them, forcing them to either fight 300 extremely deadly ODP’s that can easily one-shot them, to turn around and fight the even more dangerous Infinity, or to do Juls strategy of just running away and hoping the Infinity doesn’t give chase. That’s how the entire battle would go with the subsequent fleets that attacked Earth (with only the Dreadnought possibly making things slightly more complicated).
> 2533274978302173;7:
> > 2535433369016861;2:
> > A lot of people really enjoy trying to downplay the Infinity because they don’t like the idea of human supremacy, but the fact that the Infinity casually put a massive hole in the MA, when Earths entire ODP network couldn’t even scratch it (the same ODP’s that would wreck the Covenants best ships with ease), or the fact that the Infinity solo’d Juls entire fleet at Requiem, should really tell you about the massive power gap between the Infinity and the Covenant fleets. The only ship that could even come close to doing anything is the Dreadnought, but that didn’t arrive until very late in the battle anyway.
> >
> > So the answer is yes, the UNSC would’ve won Earth if they had post-war Infinity, and quite easily too.
>
> And a lot of people exaggerate its power. It didn’t casually put a hole in the MA, it used its most powerful cannons to create a hole barely large enough for a fighter to pass through, and even then it was fixed almost immediately. All that is said about the ODPs is ‘MAC defences ineffective’. This doesn’t mean that those shots weren’t denting the MA’s armour too, they just didn’t slow the ship down seeing as any hull breach is repaired seconds later.
>
> And as someone has stated, Jul’s fleet is a ragtag gang of whatever ships he can get his hands on. A couple of CAS carriers, in my mind, would be able to to take on the Infinity. In fact, I’m sure in one of the comics a pair of CAS and their supporting craft fight the Infinity to a standstill. Considering how many assault carriers were at Earth (we don’t have solid numbers, but there were likely dozens) and it suddenly seems like the Infinity is completely outgunned.
This is what I mean by downplaying the Infinity. The hole wasn’t even close to “barely large enough for a Broadsword”, if you wanted to you could’ve fit more than 50 in there no problem. Times that 50 by the Broadswords dimensions and you’ve got a massive hole that would cripple even a CSO. And this is assuming a CSO and the Didacts personal flagship have the same durability levels, which they absolutely do not. “the hole was fixed almost immediately” Unless you’re implying any Covenant ship aside from the Dreadnought can also do that, that’s irrelevant. As far as the ODP’s allegedly piercing the MA as well (contrary to the evidence), I’m just going to chalk this up as a Hitchens Razor and move on. It’s also worth mentioning that of the four SMAC’s on the Infinity, the Infinity only fired two of them, and once each. There’s no reason it wouldn’t constantly spam all four at the Battle of Earth.
Downplay Juls fleet as much as you want, the fact still stands that the Infinity solo’d them, as well as their Promethean allies (something the Covenant didn’t even have). As far as the fight in Escalation goes, it was again Juls entire fleet against just the Infinity, and again the infinity destroyed most of them, only for Jul and his two CAS’s to retreat. The only thing impressive about this is that the CAS’s survived at all. “there were likely dozens of CAS’s at Earth” Dozens that were reduced to just three even without the Infinity, that’s not good. And I just remembered that, aside from Regrets tiny fleet, most of the ships at Earth were piloted by Brutes, who were approximately 3 times less intelligent in naval combat than the Elites were (who weren’t too bright compared to the Humans in their own right), making this even more of a stomp than it already was.
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> > 2533274978302173;7:
> > > 2535433369016861;2:
> > > A lot of people really enjoy trying to downplay the Infinity because they don’t like the idea of human supremacy, but the fact that the Infinity casually put a massive hole in the MA, when Earths entire ODP network couldn’t even scratch it (the same ODP’s that would wreck the Covenants best ships with ease), or the fact that the Infinity solo’d Juls entire fleet at Requiem, should really tell you about the massive power gap between the Infinity and the Covenant fleets. The only ship that could even come close to doing anything is the Dreadnought, but that didn’t arrive until very late in the battle anyway.
> > >
> > > So the answer is yes, the UNSC would’ve won Earth if they had post-war Infinity, and quite easily too.
> >
> > And a lot of people exaggerate its power. It didn’t casually put a hole in the MA, it used its most powerful cannons to create a hole barely large enough for a fighter to pass through, and even then it was fixed almost immediately. All that is said about the ODPs is ‘MAC defences ineffective’. This doesn’t mean that those shots weren’t denting the MA’s armour too, they just didn’t slow the ship down seeing as any hull breach is repaired seconds later.
> >
> > And as someone has stated, Jul’s fleet is a ragtag gang of whatever ships he can get his hands on. A couple of CAS carriers, in my mind, would be able to to take on the Infinity. In fact, I’m sure in one of the comics a pair of CAS and their supporting craft fight the Infinity to a standstill. Considering how many assault carriers were at Earth (we don’t have solid numbers, but there were likely dozens) and it suddenly seems like the Infinity is completely outgunned.
>
> This is what I mean by downplaying the Infinity. The hole wasn’t even close to “barely large enough for a Broadsword”, if you wanted to you could’ve fit more than 50 in there no problem. Times that 50 by the Broadswords dimensions and you’ve got a massive hole that would cripple even a CSO. And this is assuming a CSO and the Didacts personal flagship have the same durability levels, which they absolutely do not. “the hole was fixed almost immediately” Unless you’re implying any Covenant ship aside from the Dreadnought can also do that, that’s irrelevant. As far as the ODP’s allegedly piercing the MA as well (contrary to the evidence), I’m just going to chalk this up as a Hitchens Razor and move on. It’s also worth mentioning that of the four SMAC’s on the Infinity, the Infinity only fired two of them, and once each. There’s no reason it wouldn’t constantly spam all four at the Battle of Earth.
>
> Downplay Juls fleet as much as you want, the fact still stands that the Infinity solo’d them, as well as their Promethean allies (something the Covenant didn’t even have). As far as the fight in Escalation goes, it was again Juls entire fleet against just the Infinity, and again the infinity destroyed most of them, only for Jul and his two CAS’s to retreat. The only thing impressive about this is that the CAS’s survived at all. “there were likely dozens of CAS’s at Earth” Dozens that were reduced to just three even without the Infinity, that’s not good. And I just remembered that, aside from Regrets tiny fleet, most of the ships at Earth were piloted by Brutes, who were approximately 3 times less intelligent in naval combat than the Elites were (who weren’t too bright compared to the Humans in their own right), making this even more of a stomp than it already was.
I will have to agree with you on this. The fact that the Infinity managed to damage the Mantle Approch where ODPs had negligible effects, the same ODPs that could have one shotted any ship in the Covenant navy, which were also older models, shows how powerful she actually is.
Also the idea the Jul fleet was some ragtag fleet is grasping at straws on the notion that elites weren’t as skilled in support roles like engineering compared to warfighting and the loss of the Huragok meant all ships were falling apart. His ships could have been repaired and fitted by jackals, unggoy and any other race capable of repairs. For the second battle of Requium, the Infinity then makes such a precise jump (a tool which was used by Thel to devestating effect against the UNSC in the war) and has such heavy shielding it can spear straight through a CCS class battlecruiser (if it wasn’t a carrier) with so little effort, Lasky didn’t even lift his head out of the holo monitor. Then, her and her escorts, all of which we saw were frigates, proceed to destroy a fleet that only 10 years previously would have been enough to rout all but the most powerful of UNSC fleets x5 Infinty battlegroup size and glass a planet.
Conclusion, the Infinity is massively powerful and at least for the first battle of Earth, she would have played a decisive role in a UNSC victory. I dare say it would be unlikely Regret fleet would have even broken through to the surface. As for the second battle she may have been withdrawn when the dreadnought and her escorts appeared so not to be lost. However she would have been decisive in a victory at Earth.
> 2535433369016861;9:
> > 2533274978302173;7:
> > > 2535433369016861;2:
> > > A lot of people really enjoy trying to downplay the Infinity because they don’t like the idea of human supremacy, but the fact that the Infinity casually put a massive hole in the MA, when Earths entire ODP network couldn’t even scratch it (the same ODP’s that would wreck the Covenants best ships with ease), or the fact that the Infinity solo’d Juls entire fleet at Requiem, should really tell you about the massive power gap between the Infinity and the Covenant fleets. The only ship that could even come close to doing anything is the Dreadnought, but that didn’t arrive until very late in the battle anyway.
> > >
> > > So the answer is yes, the UNSC would’ve won Earth if they had post-war Infinity, and quite easily too.
> >
> > And a lot of people exaggerate its power. It didn’t casually put a hole in the MA, it used its most powerful cannons to create a hole barely large enough for a fighter to pass through, and even then it was fixed almost immediately. All that is said about the ODPs is ‘MAC defences ineffective’. This doesn’t mean that those shots weren’t denting the MA’s armour too, they just didn’t slow the ship down seeing as any hull breach is repaired seconds later.
> >
> > And as someone has stated, Jul’s fleet is a ragtag gang of whatever ships he can get his hands on. A couple of CAS carriers, in my mind, would be able to to take on the Infinity. In fact, I’m sure in one of the comics a pair of CAS and their supporting craft fight the Infinity to a standstill. Considering how many assault carriers were at Earth (we don’t have solid numbers, but there were likely dozens) and it suddenly seems like the Infinity is completely outgunned.
>
> This is what I mean by downplaying the Infinity. The hole wasn’t even close to “barely large enough for a Broadsword”, if you wanted to you could’ve fit more than 50 in there no problem. Times that 50 by the Broadswords dimensions and you’ve got a massive hole that would cripple even a CSO. And this is assuming a CSO and the Didacts personal flagship have the same durability levels, which they absolutely do not. “the hole was fixed almost immediately” Unless you’re implying any Covenant ship aside from the Dreadnought can also do that, that’s irrelevant. As far as the ODP’s allegedly piercing the MA as well (contrary to the evidence), I’m just going to chalk this up as a Hitchens Razor and move on. It’s also worth mentioning that of the four SMAC’s on the Infinity, the Infinity only fired two of them, and once each. There’s no reason it wouldn’t constantly spam all four at the Battle of Earth.
>
> Downplay Juls fleet as much as you want, the fact still stands that the Infinity solo’d them, as well as their Promethean allies (something the Covenant didn’t even have). As far as the fight in Escalation goes, it was again Juls entire fleet against just the Infinity, and again the infinity destroyed most of them, only for Jul and his two CAS’s to retreat. The only thing impressive about this is that the CAS’s survived at all. “there were likely dozens of CAS’s at Earth” Dozens that were reduced to just three even without the Infinity, that’s not good. And I just remembered that, aside from Regrets tiny fleet, most of the ships at Earth were piloted by Brutes, who were approximately 3 times less intelligent in naval combat than the Elites were (who weren’t too bright compared to the Humans in their own right), making this even more of a stomp than it already was.
There’s plenty of reason the Infinity couldn’t spam its MACs, they have a loading time and limited ammo. One of the main advantages of an ODP MAC over a ship based one (aside from the vastly superior power) were the reloading speeds. And I would doubt the Infinity’s ability to get through a CSO’s shields, considering the entire Epsilon Eridani defence fleet (we can assume at least fifty ships, as this was before the main battle) and twenty ODPs couldn’t take one down. Given time, yes, but not before the CSO could do enough damage to the Infinity to either destroy it or force it to retreat. The Infinity was heavily damaged by the enegy projector on a Covenant station (I may be missing context as I haven’t read the comic) and I’m sure that the CSO would be able to perform a similar feat.
The Covenant caste system meant there were no Sangheili engineers or builders, and the Prophets took away the Huragok, who were responsible for the maintenance and repair of Covenant ships. Sure, drones could work as engineers, but they were no where near as effective as Huragok, and we’ve not seen them working in Jul’s Covenant. This means that his ships are not in the best shape, and his fleet was mainly made up of CRS light cruisers, which are only 200m long compared to the 1.7km long CCS cruisers, the ship that formed the backbone of the Covenant navy. You mention the Prometheans, but they didn’t have any naval presence at Requiem, so their help only mattered planetside (apart from boarding the Infinity, but I doubt anything like that would happen at Earth)
Where are you getting the number three from? I can think of four named carriers that survived off the top of my head. And thst wasn’t the UNSCs doing, the Elites and Brutes were responsible for reducing the Covenant navy size.
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> > 2535433369016861;9:
> > > 2533274978302173;7:
> > > > 2535433369016861;2:
> > > > A lot of people really enjoy trying to downplay the Infinity because they don’t like the idea of human supremacy, but the fact that the Infinity casually put a massive hole in the MA, when Earths entire ODP network couldn’t even scratch it (the same ODP’s that would wreck the Covenants best ships with ease), or the fact that the Infinity solo’d Juls entire fleet at Requiem, should really tell you about the massive power gap between the Infinity and the Covenant fleets. The only ship that could even come close to doing anything is the Dreadnought, but that didn’t arrive until very late in the battle anyway.
> > > >
> > > > So the answer is yes, the UNSC would’ve won Earth if they had post-war Infinity, and quite easily too.
> > >
> > > And a lot of people exaggerate its power. It didn’t casually put a hole in the MA, it used its most powerful cannons to create a hole barely large enough for a fighter to pass through, and even then it was fixed almost immediately. All that is said about the ODPs is ‘MAC defences ineffective’. This doesn’t mean that those shots weren’t denting the MA’s armour too, they just didn’t slow the ship down seeing as any hull breach is repaired seconds later.
> > >
> > > And as someone has stated, Jul’s fleet is a ragtag gang of whatever ships he can get his hands on. A couple of CAS carriers, in my mind, would be able to to take on the Infinity. In fact, I’m sure in one of the comics a pair of CAS and their supporting craft fight the Infinity to a standstill. Considering how many assault carriers were at Earth (we don’t have solid numbers, but there were likely dozens) and it suddenly seems like the Infinity is completely outgunned.
> >
> > This is what I mean by downplaying the Infinity. The hole wasn’t even close to “barely large enough for a Broadsword”, if you wanted to you could’ve fit more than 50 in there no problem. Times that 50 by the Broadswords dimensions and you’ve got a massive hole that would cripple even a CSO. And this is assuming a CSO and the Didacts personal flagship have the same durability levels, which they absolutely do not. “the hole was fixed almost immediately” Unless you’re implying any Covenant ship aside from the Dreadnought can also do that, that’s irrelevant. As far as the ODP’s allegedly piercing the MA as well (contrary to the evidence), I’m just going to chalk this up as a Hitchens Razor and move on. It’s also worth mentioning that of the four SMAC’s on the Infinity, the Infinity only fired two of them, and once each. There’s no reason it wouldn’t constantly spam all four at the Battle of Earth.
> >
> > Downplay Juls fleet as much as you want, the fact still stands that the Infinity solo’d them, as well as their Promethean allies (something the Covenant didn’t even have). As far as the fight in Escalation goes, it was again Juls entire fleet against just the Infinity, and again the infinity destroyed most of them, only for Jul and his two CAS’s to retreat. The only thing impressive about this is that the CAS’s survived at all. “there were likely dozens of CAS’s at Earth” Dozens that were reduced to just three even without the Infinity, that’s not good. And I just remembered that, aside from Regrets tiny fleet, most of the ships at Earth were piloted by Brutes, who were approximately 3 times less intelligent in naval combat than the Elites were (who weren’t too bright compared to the Humans in their own right), making this even more of a stomp than it already was.
>
> I will have to agree with you on this. The fact that the Infinity managed to damage the Mantle Approch where ODPs had negligible effects, the same ODPs that could have one shotted any ship in the Covenant navy, which were also older models, shows how powerful she actually is.
>
> Also the idea the Jul fleet was some ragtag fleet is grasping at straws on the notion that elites weren’t as skilled in support roles like engineering compared to warfighting and the loss of the Huragok meant all ships were falling apart. His ships could have been repaired and fitted by jackals, unggoy and any other race capable of repairs. For the second battle of Requium, the Infinity then makes such a precise jump (a tool which was used by Thel to devestating effect against the UNSC in the war) and has such heavy shielding it can spear straight through a CCS class battlecruiser (if it wasn’t a carrier) with so little effort, Lasky didn’t even lift his head out of the holo monitor. Then, her and her escorts, all of which we saw were frigates, proceed to destroy a fleet that only 10 years previously would have been enough to rout all but the most powerful of UNSC fleets x5 Infinty battlegroup size and glass a planet.
>
> Conclusion, the Infinity is massively powerful and at least for the first battle of Earth, she would have played a decisive role in a UNSC victory. I dare say it would be unlikely Regret fleet would have even broken through to the surface. As for the second battle she may have been withdrawn when the dreadnought and her escorts appeared so not to be lost. However she would have been decisive in a victory at Earth.
Jul’s fleet was nothing compared to the fleet that attacked Earth. The Elites find any career aside from a warrior as dishonourable, the jackals are basically space pirates, the grunts are practically slaves and all of them have been using the Covenant’s infrastructure for hundreds of years. Without the Huragok or even a some drones, they lack the skill required to repair and maintain their ships. As much as I dislike a lot of the Kilo 5 trilogy, it outlined some of the struggles the Elites were facing after the Great Schism.
The Infinity’s ability to perform pinpoint slipspace jumps would help it harass the Covenant fleet, but wouldn’t help it in a defensive role, at least not enough to change the outcome of the battle of Earth. Also, I’m pretty sure it wasn’t a CCS, and 100% sure that ship was not a carrier of any kind. It was an RCS class, an older cruiser type with weaker shielding. While still impressive, the ability to ram an outdated Covenant ship would not be able to turn the tide against a fleet of hundreds of the Covenant’s modern vessels.
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> > > > 2533274978302173;7:
> > > > > 2535433369016861;2:
> > > > > A lot of people really enjoy trying to downplay the Infinity because they don’t like the idea of human supremacy, but the fact that the Infinity casually put a massive hole in the MA, when Earths entire ODP network couldn’t even scratch it (the same ODP’s that would wreck the Covenants best ships with ease), or the fact that the Infinity solo’d Juls entire fleet at Requiem, should really tell you about the massive power gap between the Infinity and the Covenant fleets. The only ship that could even come close to doing anything is the Dreadnought, but that didn’t arrive until very late in the battle anyway.
> > > > >
> > > > > So the answer is yes, the UNSC would’ve won Earth if they had post-war Infinity, and quite easily too.
> > > >
> > > > And a lot of people exaggerate its power. It didn’t casually put a hole in the MA, it used its most powerful cannons to create a hole barely large enough for a fighter to pass through, and even then it was fixed almost immediately. All that is said about the ODPs is ‘MAC defences ineffective’. This doesn’t mean that those shots weren’t denting the MA’s armour too, they just didn’t slow the ship down seeing as any hull breach is repaired seconds later.
> > > >
> > > > And as someone has stated, Jul’s fleet is a ragtag gang of whatever ships he can get his hands on. A couple of CAS carriers, in my mind, would be able to to take on the Infinity. In fact, I’m sure in one of the comics a pair of CAS and their supporting craft fight the Infinity to a standstill. Considering how many assault carriers were at Earth (we don’t have solid numbers, but there were likely dozens) and it suddenly seems like the Infinity is completely outgunned.
> > >
> > > This is what I mean by downplaying the Infinity. The hole wasn’t even close to “barely large enough for a Broadsword”, if you wanted to you could’ve fit more than 50 in there no problem. Times that 50 by the Broadswords dimensions and you’ve got a massive hole that would cripple even a CSO. And this is assuming a CSO and the Didacts personal flagship have the same durability levels, which they absolutely do not. “the hole was fixed almost immediately” Unless you’re implying any Covenant ship aside from the Dreadnought can also do that, that’s irrelevant. As far as the ODP’s allegedly piercing the MA as well (contrary to the evidence), I’m just going to chalk this up as a Hitchens Razor and move on. It’s also worth mentioning that of the four SMAC’s on the Infinity, the Infinity only fired two of them, and once each. There’s no reason it wouldn’t constantly spam all four at the Battle of Earth.
> > >
> > > Downplay Juls fleet as much as you want, the fact still stands that the Infinity solo’d them, as well as their Promethean allies (something the Covenant didn’t even have). As far as the fight in Escalation goes, it was again Juls entire fleet against just the Infinity, and again the infinity destroyed most of them, only for Jul and his two CAS’s to retreat. The only thing impressive about this is that the CAS’s survived at all. “there were likely dozens of CAS’s at Earth” Dozens that were reduced to just three even without the Infinity, that’s not good. And I just remembered that, aside from Regrets tiny fleet, most of the ships at Earth were piloted by Brutes, who were approximately 3 times less intelligent in naval combat than the Elites were (who weren’t too bright compared to the Humans in their own right), making this even more of a stomp than it already was.
> >
> > I will have to agree with you on this. The fact that the Infinity managed to damage the Mantle Approch where ODPs had negligible effects, the same ODPs that could have one shotted any ship in the Covenant navy, which were also older models, shows how powerful she actually is.
> >
> > Also the idea the Jul fleet was some ragtag fleet is grasping at straws on the notion that elites weren’t as skilled in support roles like engineering compared to warfighting and the loss of the Huragok meant all ships were falling apart. His ships could have been repaired and fitted by jackals, unggoy and any other race capable of repairs. For the second battle of Requium, the Infinity then makes such a precise jump (a tool which was used by Thel to devestating effect against the UNSC in the war) and has such heavy shielding it can spear straight through a CCS class battlecruiser (if it wasn’t a carrier) with so little effort, Lasky didn’t even lift his head out of the holo monitor. Then, her and her escorts, all of which we saw were frigates, proceed to destroy a fleet that only 10 years previously would have been enough to rout all but the most powerful of UNSC fleets x5 Infinty battlegroup size and glass a planet.
> >
> > Conclusion, the Infinity is massively powerful and at least for the first battle of Earth, she would have played a decisive role in a UNSC victory. I dare say it would be unlikely Regret fleet would have even broken through to the surface. As for the second battle she may have been withdrawn when the dreadnought and her escorts appeared so not to be lost. However she would have been decisive in a victory at Earth.
We never were comparing Jul fleet to the fleet that hit Earth. The point that was being made is that his fleet only a short bmtime before would have demanded a considerablely larger UNSC fleet to neutralise it, not the infinity and her on-board escorts solo slaying the whole fleet.
Again I never dismissed the idea that the Elites were struggling as a species post schism. However it doesn’t mean they were incapable. Also the status of the other races meant that learning to operate in these supporting roles helped secure their place, space pirates have to learn to operate independently and be self reliant, while slaved have to learn skills to not be killed, which in a post war galaxy meant they are more important than before.
Defence doesn’t have to be static. Infinity jumping to a weak point on the enemy flank and exploiting it is defence, a counter attack is a defensive move. Again with her SMACs and other ordinance, infinity can cause significant damage. Keep in mind it was older super MACs that were one shotting modern covenant ships, so the infinity would easily double that kill count. As for the older ships, most weren’t pressed into service until much later, and even then these ships weren’t decommissioned for any real lack of capability but more to the whims of the prophets who preferred to remove the unjque identity of any one race through their ship designs. A Brigatine can wreck quite alot of ships.
I am not saying the infinity is invincible, personally I think it should have been made better. That said if it was there for the battle of earth, it would have been a force to reckon with.
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> > > > > > A lot of people really enjoy trying to downplay the Infinity because they don’t like the idea of human supremacy, but the fact that the Infinity casually put a massive hole in the MA, when Earths entire ODP network couldn’t even scratch it (the same ODP’s that would wreck the Covenants best ships with ease), or the fact that the Infinity solo’d Juls entire fleet at Requiem, should really tell you about the massive power gap between the Infinity and the Covenant fleets. The only ship that could even come close to doing anything is the Dreadnought, but that didn’t arrive until very late in the battle anyway.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So the answer is yes, the UNSC would’ve won Earth if they had post-war Infinity, and quite easily too.
> > > > >
> > > > > And a lot of people exaggerate its power. It didn’t casually put a hole in the MA, it used its most powerful cannons to create a hole barely large enough for a fighter to pass through, and even then it was fixed almost immediately. All that is said about the ODPs is ‘MAC defences ineffective’. This doesn’t mean that those shots weren’t denting the MA’s armour too, they just didn’t slow the ship down seeing as any hull breach is repaired seconds later.
> > > > >
> > > > > And as someone has stated, Jul’s fleet is a ragtag gang of whatever ships he can get his hands on. A couple of CAS carriers, in my mind, would be able to to take on the Infinity. In fact, I’m sure in one of the comics a pair of CAS and their supporting craft fight the Infinity to a standstill. Considering how many assault carriers were at Earth (we don’t have solid numbers, but there were likely dozens) and it suddenly seems like the Infinity is completely outgunned.
> > > >
> > > > This is what I mean by downplaying the Infinity. The hole wasn’t even close to “barely large enough for a Broadsword”, if you wanted to you could’ve fit more than 50 in there no problem. Times that 50 by the Broadswords dimensions and you’ve got a massive hole that would cripple even a CSO. And this is assuming a CSO and the Didacts personal flagship have the same durability levels, which they absolutely do not. “the hole was fixed almost immediately” Unless you’re implying any Covenant ship aside from the Dreadnought can also do that, that’s irrelevant. As far as the ODP’s allegedly piercing the MA as well (contrary to the evidence), I’m just going to chalk this up as a Hitchens Razor and move on. It’s also worth mentioning that of the four SMAC’s on the Infinity, the Infinity only fired two of them, and once each. There’s no reason it wouldn’t constantly spam all four at the Battle of Earth.
> > > >
> > > > Downplay Juls fleet as much as you want, the fact still stands that the Infinity solo’d them, as well as their Promethean allies (something the Covenant didn’t even have). As far as the fight in Escalation goes, it was again Juls entire fleet against just the Infinity, and again the infinity destroyed most of them, only for Jul and his two CAS’s to retreat. The only thing impressive about this is that the CAS’s survived at all. “there were likely dozens of CAS’s at Earth” Dozens that were reduced to just three even without the Infinity, that’s not good. And I just remembered that, aside from Regrets tiny fleet, most of the ships at Earth were piloted by Brutes, who were approximately 3 times less intelligent in naval combat than the Elites were (who weren’t too bright compared to the Humans in their own right), making this even more of a stomp than it already was.
>
> We never were comparing Jul fleet to the fleet that hit Earth. The point that was being made is that his fleet only a short bmtime before would have demanded a considerablely larger UNSC fleet to neutralise it, not the infinity and her on-board escorts solo slaying the whole fleet
>
> Defence doesn’t have to be static. Infinity jumping to a weak point on the enemy flank and exploiting it is defence, a counter attack is a defensive move. Again with her SMACs and other ordinance, infinity can cause significant damage. Keep in mind it was older super MACs that were one shotting modern covenant ships, so the infinity would easily double that kill count. As for the older ships, most weren’t pressed into service until much later, and even then these ships weren’t decommissioned for any real lack of capability but more to the whims of the prophets who preferred to remove the unjque identity of any one race through their ship designs. A Brigatine can wreck quite alot of ships.
>
> I am not saying the infinity is invincible, personally I think it should have been made better. That said if it was there for the battle of earth, it would have been a force to reckon with.
I’m not saying the Infinity wouldn’t help, but the OP was asking could they win the battle of Earth and could they win the war earlier? The answer to both is no. Someone put it quite well before, the UNSC didn’t win the war, the Covenant lost it.
Comparing Jul’s and Truth’s fleet is relevant because the fact that the Infinity solod Jul’s fleet doesn’t mean it could do the same to Truth’s. The backbone of Jul’s fleet was made up of CRS light cruisers, roughly 200m in length, while Truth’s mainline ship was the CCS battlecruiser, 1.7km long. While I know bigger doesn’t always mean better, such a size difference alone already makes Jul’s ships severely less powerful than Truth’s. Coupled with the number of ships fielded (I don’t know specifical numbers for either, just that Truth had hundreds of ships, a force size I can’t imagine Jul assembling) and the Infinity is severely outmatched. That’s not even taking larger Covenant ships into account.
Maintenance tasks were performed by drones and Huragok. The grunts didn’t perform any engineering tasks, they were used for manual labour or cannon fodder. The jackals, while some would have experience, also relied on external maintenance. It was a clever method the Prophets used to keep the other races in line, as none could survive a war with the Covenant because they lacked the skill and knowledge required to do so.
I know the Infinity can use hit and run tactics, but I don’t see how that would help at Earth. The ODPs and the planet are static, so the Infinity would have to leave them exposed as it retreated. Not to mention, the Covenant would be able to pursue the Infinity with pinpoint jumps as well, so it would turn into a game of cat and mouse as the Infinity quickly attacked a ship orbiting Earth and then retreated as more Covenant ships convereged. This is viable, but considering the size or Truth’s fleet (not even mentioning the keyship) I can’t see the Infinity wearing them down in time to save Earth. Also, ODPs can’t one shot every Covenant ship, as the Long Night of Solace was able to tank the entire Reach defence force, including twenty ODPs.
Your point about okder ships is true, but those are the ancient Sangheili ships. Those were retired to erase Sangheili culture, but the RCS is a purely Covenant designed ship that was retired in favour of the superior and newer CCS.
The only reason Earth wasn’t glassed was A) Truth was more focused on the portal to the Ark and B) the Elite seperatists arrived and finished the remainder of Truth’s fleet.
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> > > > > > > A lot of people really enjoy trying to downplay the Infinity because they don’t like the idea of human supremacy, but the fact that the Infinity casually put a massive hole in the MA, when Earths entire ODP network couldn’t even scratch it (the same ODP’s that would wreck the Covenants best ships with ease), or the fact that the Infinity solo’d Juls entire fleet at Requiem, should really tell you about the massive power gap between the Infinity and the Covenant fleets. The only ship that could even come close to doing anything is the Dreadnought, but that didn’t arrive until very late in the battle anyway.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > So the answer is yes, the UNSC would’ve won Earth if they had post-war Infinity, and quite easily too.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And a lot of people exaggerate its power. It didn’t casually put a hole in the MA, it used its most powerful cannons to create a hole barely large enough for a fighter to pass through, and even then it was fixed almost immediately. All that is said about the ODPs is ‘MAC defences ineffective’. This doesn’t mean that those shots weren’t denting the MA’s armour too, they just didn’t slow the ship down seeing as any hull breach is repaired seconds later.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And as someone has stated, Jul’s fleet is a ragtag gang of whatever ships he can get his hands on. A couple of CAS carriers, in my mind, would be able to to take on the Infinity. In fact, I’m sure in one of the comics a pair of CAS and their supporting craft fight the Infinity to a standstill. Considering how many assault carriers were at Earth (we don’t have solid numbers, but there were likely dozens) and it suddenly seems like the Infinity is completely outgunned.
> > > > >
> > > > > This is what I mean by downplaying the Infinity. The hole wasn’t even close to “barely large enough for a Broadsword”, if you wanted to you could’ve fit more than 50 in there no problem. Times that 50 by the Broadswords dimensions and you’ve got a massive hole that would cripple even a CSO. And this is assuming a CSO and the Didacts personal flagship have the same durability levels, which they absolutely do not. “the hole was fixed almost immediately” Unless you’re implying any Covenant ship aside from the Dreadnought can also do that, that’s irrelevant. As far as the ODP’s allegedly piercing the MA as well (contrary to the evidence), I’m just going to chalk this up as a Hitchens Razor and move on. It’s also worth mentioning that of the four SMAC’s on the Infinity, the Infinity only fired two of them, and once each. There’s no reason it wouldn’t constantly spam all four at the Battle of Earth.
> > > > >
> > > > > Downplay Juls fleet as much as you want, the fact still stands that the Infinity solo’d them, as well as their Promethean allies (something the Covenant didn’t even have). As far as the fight in Escalation goes, it was again Juls entire fleet against just the Infinity, and again the infinity destroyed most of them, only for Jul and his two CAS’s to retreat. The only thing impressive about this is that the CAS’s survived at all. “there were likely dozens of CAS’s at Earth” Dozens that were reduced to just three even without the Infinity, that’s not good. And I just remembered that, aside from Regrets tiny fleet, most of the ships at Earth were piloted by Brutes, who were approximately 3 times less intelligent in naval combat than the Elites were (who weren’t too bright compared to the Humans in their own right), making this even more of a stomp than it already was.
> >
> > We never were comparing Jul fleet to the fleet that hit Earth. The point that was being made is that his fleet only a short bmtime before would have demanded a considerablely larger UNSC fleet to neutralise it, not the infinity and her on-board escorts solo slaying the whole fleet
> >
> > Defence doesn’t have to be static. Infinity jumping to a weak point on the enemy flank and exploiting it is defence, a counter attack is a defensive move. Again with her SMACs and other ordinance, infinity can cause significant damage. Keep in mind it was older super MACs that were one shotting modern covenant ships, so the infinity would easily double that kill count. As for the older ships, most weren’t pressed into service until much later, and even then these ships weren’t decommissioned for any real lack of capability but more to the whims of the prophets who preferred to remove the unjque identity of any one race through their ship designs. A Brigatine can wreck quite alot of ships.
> >
> > I am not saying the infinity is invincible, personally I think it should have been made better. That said if it was there for the battle of earth, it would have been a force to reckon with.
>
> I’m not saying the Infinity wouldn’t help, but the OP was asking could they win the battle of Earth and could they win the war earlier? The answer to both is no. Someone put it quite well before, the UNSC didn’t win the war, the Covenant lost it.
>
> Comparing Jul’s and Truth’s fleet is relevant because the fact that the Infinity solod Jul’s fleet doesn’t mean it could do the same to Truth’s. The backbone of Jul’s fleet was made up of CRS light cruisers, roughly 200m in length, while Truth’s mainline ship was the CCS battlecruiser, 1.7km long. While I know bigger doesn’t always mean better, such a size difference alone already makes Jul’s ships severely less powerful than Truth’s. Coupled with the number of ships fielded (I don’t know specifical numbers for either, just that Truth had hundreds of ships, a force size I can’t imagine Jul assembling) and the Infinity is severely outmatched. That’s not even taking larger Covenant ships into account.
>
> Maintenance tasks were performed by drones and Huragok. The grunts didn’t perform any engineering tasks, they were used for manual labour or cannon fodder. The jackals, while some would have experience, also relied on external maintenance. It was a clever method the Prophets used to keep the other races in line, as none could survive a war with the Covenant because they lacked the skill and knowledge required to do so.
>
> I know the Infinity can use hit and run tactics, but I don’t see how that would help at Earth. The ODPs and the planet are static, so the Infinity would have to leave them exposed as it retreated. Not to mention, the Covenant would be able to pursue the Infinity with pinpoint jumps as well, so it would turn into a game of cat and mouse as the Infinity quickly attacked a ship orbiting Earth and then retreated as more Covenant ships convereged. This is viable, but considering the size or Truth’s fleet (not even mentioning the keyship) I can’t see the Infinity wearing them down in time to save Earth. Also, ODPs can’t one shot every Covenant ship, as the Long Night of Solace was able to tank the entire Reach defence force, including twenty ODPs.
>
> Your point about okder ships is true, but those are the ancient Sangheili ships. Those were retired to erase Sangheili culture, but the RCS is a purely Covenant designed ship that was retired in favour of the superior and newer CCS.
>
> The only reason Earth wasn’t glassed was A) Truth was more focused on the portal to the Ark and B) the Elite seperatists arrived and finished the remainder of Truth’s fleet.
Woah were are you getting that the LOS engaged with the reach ODP network? Not to mention truths fleet does not have any COS on record.
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> And I just remembered that, aside from Regrets tiny fleet, most of the ships at Earth were piloted by Brutes, who were approximately 3 times less intelligent in naval combat than the Elites were (who weren’t too bright compared to the Humans in their own right), making this even more of a stomp than it already was.
How exactly did you conclude that humans are more intelligent than Sangheili?
We are talking about an alien race that had already cracked Faster Than Light travel and the colonization of new worlds while humans were still living in mud huts. In fact, humanity is one of the last known races to reach the space age and the age of interstellar travel among all known alien races, which would suggest were less intelligent then races like the Sangheili, not more. (In fact it’s a confirmed fact unless I’m mistaken that the Forerunner’s reduced human intelligence as punishment for warring with them in the past)
Up until 2552, the Sangheili had been conducting an extremely successful war against humanity that we were undeniably losing, and which had pushed our race to the verge of extinction. If we were more intelligent than the Sangheili, then surely everything I’ve listed above would be the other way around.
And without going off on a tangent, the Jiralhanae aren’t less intelligent then the Sangheili, just in the case of the Battle of the Ark less experienced. The Sangheili had been serving as Ship Masters and crews for years, the Jiralhanae only a matter of weeks by comparison.
The Sangheili would know the exact limitations of their warships because they’d been crewing them there entire adult lives, the Jiralhanae had only been elevated to their positions only recently.
Change the nature of the conflict, and Atriox turned a handful of dissatisfied Jiralhanae mutineers into a threat considered just as dangerous to the Covenant’s survival as humanity was with all our colonies, fleets, industrial infrastructure and Spartan super soldiers.
Going back to the original post, in all fairness the OP original question related just to the Infinity itself, not its internally docked Strident-class frigates and not its 30-50 vessel strong support fleet. This would also be before the Infinity had access to its Foreunner slip-space drive as the UNSC did not have access to a Forerunner shield world at this time. Maybe the Infinity had been rushed into production with energy shielding that actually works, but as this is new technology for the UNSC I’d say its shielding is either prone to failure or simply the UNSC wouldn’t have had time to fit them. (They will still be a cheap knock-off of the energy shielding Covenant ships use, just as MJOLNIR armour costs the equivalent of a small starship to produce and only provides slightly superior protection to the mass produced Sangheili energy shielding)
For the sake of argument, I’m prepared to handwave all of this and believe the Infinity is deployed with full energy shielding, a forerunner slip-space drive and its full support fleet of frigates and cruisers.
It won’t make any significant difference to the battle of earth regardless.
It’s still armed with inferior MAC cannons which require horizonal and vertical line of sight to hit its targets, missiles that can be intercepted and shielding that we’ve already seen offer no protection against an energy projector equipped Covenant weapons platform 1/5 the Infinity’s size. (Please see the battle of Oth Lodon if you are not familiar with this engagement, its highlights what a waste of money and resources the Infinity really is!)
40-60 ships including the Infinity could along with the 100+ strong UNSC home fleet and 300 Orbital Defence Platforms could maybe turn aside Regret’s initial survey fleet through superior numbers, but once Truth’s fleet arrives of several hundred CCS-class battle cruisers and CAS-class Assault Carriers, we’re screwed.
As I’ve already stated, we’ve already seen the Infinity crippled and disabled by a single Covenant weapons platform armed with the same weapons as every Covenant warship from cruiser size up. I can see Infinity using its slip-space drive to mount hit and run attacks of the Covenant fleet, but it would not be able to keep this up indefinitely, and even if it survives up until Truth arrives, its going to get smashed with the rest of the Homefleet by the Forerunner Dreadnaught.
Then the Sangheili separatists turn up, and save the day just like they did in the real fictional timeline.
The only way I could see the Infinity surviving and playing a pivotal is if Hood uses it as a command and control ship to direct other human assets as far away from the main Covenant’s main force as he can, and use the slip-space drive to escape Covenant patrols if he ever gets boxed in.
Infinity is still a human ship with human weapons which have been constantly stated to be inferior to Covenant plasma and energy-based weapons, and it’s not hard to see why. A MAC cannon requires a line of sight, an energy projector doesn’t and likewise you can’t intercept raw plasma with point defence guns, but you can intercept conventional missiles with lasers. (And please do not even get me started on the fact that the UNSC equipped it with alien made engines which they have no idea how to control, and cannot even firewall form the rest of the Infinity’s computer systems. This has resulted in the Infinity being disabled and boarded on three separate occasions if I remember correctly, which is actually how I see its deployment at the battle of earth likely ending)
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> Jul’s fleet was nothing compared to the fleet that attacked Earth. The Elites find any career aside from a warrior as dishonourable, the jackals are basically space pirates, the grunts are practically slaves and all of them have been using the Covenant’s infrastructure for hundreds of years. Without the Huragok or even some drones, they lack the skill required to repair and maintain their ships. As much as I dislike a lot of the Kilo 5 trilogy, it outlined some of the struggles the Elites were facing after the Great Schism.
>
> The Infinity’s ability to perform pinpoint slipspace jumps would help it harass the Covenant fleet, but wouldn’t help it in a defensive role, at least not enough to change the outcome of the battle of Earth. Also, I’m pretty sure it wasn’t a CCS, and 100% sure that ship was not a carrier of any kind. It was an RCS class, an older cruiser type with weaker shielding. While still impressive, the ability to ram an outdated Covenant ship would not be able to turn the tide against a fleet of hundreds of the Covenant’s modern vessels.
I respect the point your making here and I cannot stand the concept many people have of the Infinity as some kind of human super-ship able to go doe-to-toe with everything and anything it may come across, but I disagree with assessment of the Sangheili.
Broken Circle and several other novels and media have confirmed that Sangheili do have technical specialists fully capable of maintaining their own equipment. ‘Hunters in the Dark’ actually confirmed that Sangheili medics do exist and are perfectly happy to carry out complex surgery on other Covenant client species.
They just elect to man up and take the pain themselves rather then admit they need some aspirin.
Halo Fall of Reach originally stated that actually that only the Sangheili themselves were permitted to make use of more complex Covenant technology like starships and inter planetary fighter craft. This means they probably service the most advanced technology themselves with the help of Huragok, rather then allowing Unggoy and Kig-yar to become too familiar with technology that they could use to overthrow them.
I personally view the rag-tag appearance of Jul’Mdama’s fleet as being a result of them having a very limited supply chain of perhaps only a few dozen colonies and military bases to make spare parts for them, rather then them not knowing how to fix their own equipment.
It would be the equivalent in my mind of Texas declaring independence from the USA, and seizing small flotilla of naval frigates, submarines and a Nimitz-class aircraft carriers. The bad news is that the ammunition for the aircraft carrier guns is produced by a very specialized ammunition factory in Alaska, and the spare parts needed for the F-16 fighters the carrier has assigned to it can only be supplied from an aircraft production facility in Ohio.
Basically 99% of the spare parts the new nation of Texas will need to keep its new Navy running is supplied by companies and manufactures in other US states or Europe and Asia, all of which will not trade with the new nation of Texas. As a result, the Texan Navy improvises, swapping out broken down equipment with everything it can still manufacture itself or buy on the black market from dubious suppliers abroad, which five year later results in a barely functional but still floating Texan aircraft carrier and support fleet.
I see Jul Mdama’s fleet at Requiem as being similar in concept to my fiction Navy of Texas, in that the supply chain that built his fleet in the first place no longer exists in a united form. All the Covenant manufacturing facilities and Sangheili specialists and engineers who use to make it up still exist, but their divided up between a dozen Covenant factions all waging war against each other.
Personally, I think the Infinity’s victory at Reqium was overrated. Aside from the loss of a handful of light cruisers which are actually 1/3 the size of a standard Covenant frigate, the Jul’s forces only lost one actual cruiser comparable to an actual capital ship. The Infinity still failed to secure the Requiem, and Jul Mdama succeeded in disabling and boarding Infinity, and then making off with their top Forerunner scientist and the only human who seems to understand how to fix the Infinity’s engines when they decide to develop a mind of their own.
In all honesty, the only reason Jul didn’t use deadly ship killing force against the Infinity was because that would have killed Hasley, who he wanted alive. If she wasn’t in the equation, I’ve got no doubt Song of Retribution would have smashed Infinity to scrap metal. (No one has ever been able to come up with a satisfactory counter argument as to why Infinity didn’t attempt engage Song of Retribution right away if it was so superior to its Covenant counterpart in every way conceivable, and the answer in my mind is that Lasky didn’t think Infinity could. The counter as to why Jul didn’t destroy the Infinity right away is because he needed Hasley alive and she was aboard Infinity)
Keep in mind despite his faction’s rag-tag appearance, Jul still has the resources to outfit every single Sangheili warrior under his command with energy shielding comparable to the energy shielding used by Covenant era Sangheili. The UNSC by comparison is still outfitting its army and marine’s forces with conventional body armour and helmets not dissimilar to what we use today.
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> > > > > > > > A lot of people really enjoy trying to downplay the Infinity because they don’t like the idea of human supremacy, but the fact that the Infinity casually put a massive hole in the MA, when Earths entire ODP network couldn’t even scratch it (the same ODP’s that would wreck the Covenants best ships with ease), or the fact that the Infinity solo’d Juls entire fleet at Requiem, should really tell you about the massive power gap between the Infinity and the Covenant fleets. The only ship that could even come close to doing anything is the Dreadnought, but that didn’t arrive until very late in the battle anyway.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > So the answer is yes, the UNSC would’ve won Earth if they had post-war Infinity, and quite easily too.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > And a lot of people exaggerate its power. It didn’t casually put a hole in the MA, it used its most powerful cannons to create a hole barely large enough for a fighter to pass through, and even then it was fixed almost immediately. All that is said about the ODPs is ‘MAC defences ineffective’. This doesn’t mean that those shots weren’t denting the MA’s armour too, they just didn’t slow the ship down seeing as any hull breach is repaired seconds later.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > And as someone has stated, Jul’s fleet is a ragtag gang of whatever ships he can get his hands on. A couple of CAS carriers, in my mind, would be able to to take on the Infinity. In fact, I’m sure in one of the comics a pair of CAS and their supporting craft fight the Infinity to a standstill. Considering how many assault carriers were at Earth (we don’t have solid numbers, but there were likely dozens) and it suddenly seems like the Infinity is completely outgunned.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This is what I mean by downplaying the Infinity. The hole wasn’t even close to “barely large enough for a Broadsword”, if you wanted to you could’ve fit more than 50 in there no problem. Times that 50 by the Broadswords dimensions and you’ve got a massive hole that would cripple even a CSO. And this is assuming a CSO and the Didacts personal flagship have the same durability levels, which they absolutely do not. “the hole was fixed almost immediately” Unless you’re implying any Covenant ship aside from the Dreadnought can also do that, that’s irrelevant. As far as the ODP’s allegedly piercing the MA as well (contrary to the evidence), I’m just going to chalk this up as a Hitchens Razor and move on. It’s also worth mentioning that of the four SMAC’s on the Infinity, the Infinity only fired two of them, and once each. There’s no reason it wouldn’t constantly spam all four at the Battle of Earth.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Downplay Juls fleet as much as you want, the fact still stands that the Infinity solo’d them, as well as their Promethean allies (something the Covenant didn’t even have). As far as the fight in Escalation goes, it was again Juls entire fleet against just the Infinity, and again the infinity destroyed most of them, only for Jul and his two CAS’s to retreat. The only thing impressive about this is that the CAS’s survived at all. “there were likely dozens of CAS’s at Earth” Dozens that were reduced to just three even without the Infinity, that’s not good. And I just remembered that, aside from Regrets tiny fleet, most of the ships at Earth were piloted by Brutes, who were approximately 3 times less intelligent in naval combat than the Elites were (who weren’t too bright compared to the Humans in their own right), making this even more of a stomp than it already was.
> >
> > I’m not saying the Infinity wouldn’t help, but the OP was asking could they win the battle of Earth and could they win the war earlier? The answer to both is no. Someone put it quite well before, the UNSC didn’t win the war, the Covenant lost it.
> >
> > Comparing Jul’s and Truth’s fleet is relevant because the fact that the Infinity solod Jul’s fleet doesn’t mean it could do the same to Truth’s. The backbone of Jul’s fleet was made up of CRS light cruisers, roughly 200m in length, while Truth’s mainline ship was the CCS battlecruiser, 1.7km long. While I know bigger doesn’t always mean better, such a size difference alone already makes Jul’s ships severely less powerful than Truth’s. Coupled with the number of ships fielded (I don’t know specifical numbers for either, just that Truth had hundreds of ships, a force size I can’t imagine Jul assembling) and the Infinity is severely outmatched. That’s not even taking larger Covenant ships into account.
> >
> > Maintenance tasks were performed by drones and Huragok. The grunts didn’t perform any engineering tasks, they were used for manual labour or cannon fodder. The jackals, while some would have experience, also relied on external maintenance. It was a clever method the Prophets used to keep the other races in line, as none could survive a war with the Covenant because they lacked the skill and knowledge required to do so.
> >
> > I know the Infinity can use hit and run tactics, but I don’t see how that would help at Earth. The ODPs and the planet are static, so the Infinity would have to leave them exposed as it retreated. Not to mention, the Covenant would be able to pursue the Infinity with pinpoint jumps as well, so it would turn into a game of cat and mouse as the Infinity quickly attacked a ship orbiting Earth and then retreated as more Covenant ships convereged. This is viable, but considering the size or Truth’s fleet (not even mentioning the keyship) I can’t see the Infinity wearing them down in time to save Earth. Also, ODPs can’t one shot every Covenant ship, as the Long Night of Solace was able to tank the entire Reach defence force, including twenty ODPs.
> >
> > Your point about okder ships is true, but those are the ancient Sangheili ships. Those were retired to erase Sangheili culture, but the RCS is a purely Covenant designed ship that was retired in favour of the superior and newer CCS.
> >
> > The only reason Earth wasn’t glassed was A) Truth was more focused on the portal to the Ark and B) the Elite seperatists arrived and finished the remainder of Truth’s fleet.
>
> Woah were are you getting that the LOS engaged with the reach ODP network? Not to mention truths fleet does not have any COS on record.
I’ll admit that there’s nothing explicitly stating the LNoS engaged the ODPs, but it was decloaked for two days and remained in orbit around Reach. We know the Epsilon Eridani Fleet didn’t just avoid the LNoS, as Carter says all their nukes are either out system or went down with ships that carried them, alluding to a space battle that the LNoS won. I can’t imagine the UNSC ships engaging without ODP support, and due to a CSO’s sheer size and advanced shields I can imagine it tanking at least a couple of ODP shots.
We don’t know if Truth had CSOs, but he did have many CAS carriers. The point I was making is that ODPs can’t one shot every Covenant ship, and therefore the Infinity’s likely can’t either.
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> > Jul’s fleet was nothing compared to the fleet that attacked Earth. The Elites find any career aside from a warrior as dishonourable, the jackals are basically space pirates, the grunts are practically slaves and all of them have been using the Covenant’s infrastructure for hundreds of years. Without the Huragok or even some drones, they lack the skill required to repair and maintain their ships. As much as I dislike a lot of the Kilo 5 trilogy, it outlined some of the struggles the Elites were facing after the Great Schism.
> >
> > The Infinity’s ability to perform pinpoint slipspace jumps would help it harass the Covenant fleet, but wouldn’t help it in a defensive role, at least not enough to change the outcome of the battle of Earth. Also, I’m pretty sure it wasn’t a CCS, and 100% sure that ship was not a carrier of any kind. It was an RCS class, an older cruiser type with weaker shielding. While still impressive, the ability to ram an outdated Covenant ship would not be able to turn the tide against a fleet of hundreds of the Covenant’s modern vessels.
>
> I respect the point your making here and I cannot stand the concept many people have of the Infinity as some kind of human super-ship able to go doe-to-toe with everything and anything it may come across, but I disagree with assessment of the Sangheili.
>
> Broken Circle and several other novels and media have confirmed that Sangheili do have technical specialists fully capable of maintaining their own equipment. ‘Hunters in the Dark’ actually confirmed that Sangheili medics do exist and are perfectly happy to carry out complex surgery on other Covenant client species.
>
> They just elect to man up and take the pain themselves rather then admit they need some aspirin.
>
> Halo Fall of Reach originally stated that actually that only the Sangheili themselves were permitted to make use of more complex Covenant technology like starships and inter planetary fighter craft. This means they probably service the most advanced technology themselves with the help of Huragok, rather then allowing Unggoy and Kig-yar to become too familiar with technology that they could use to overthrow them.
>
> I personally view the rag-tag appearance of Jul’Mdama’s fleet as being a result of them having a very limited supply chain of perhaps only a few dozen colonies and military bases to make spare parts for them, rather then them not knowing how to fix their own equipment.
>
> It would be the equivalent in my mind of Texas declaring independence from the USA, and seizing small flotilla of naval frigates, submarines and a Nimitz-class aircraft carriers. The bad news is that the ammunition for the aircraft carrier guns is produced by a very specialized ammunition factory in Alaska, and the spare parts needed for the F-16 fighters the carrier has assigned to it can only be supplied from an aircraft production facility in Ohio.
>
> Basically 99% of the spare parts the new nation of Texas will need to keep its new Navy running is supplied by companies and manufactures in other US states or Europe and Asia, all of which will not trade with the new nation of Texas. As a result, the Texan Navy improvises, swapping out broken down equipment with everything it can still manufacture itself or buy on the black market from dubious suppliers abroad, which five year later results in a barely functional but still floating Texan aircraft carrier and support fleet.
>
> I see Jul Mdama’s fleet at Requiem as being similar in concept to my fiction Navy of Texas, in that the supply chain that built his fleet in the first place no longer exists in a united form. All the Covenant manufacturing facilities and Sangheili specialists and engineers who use to make it up still exist, but their divided up between a dozen Covenant factions all waging war against each other.
>
> Personally, I think the Infinity’s victory at Reqium was overrated. Aside from the loss of a handful of light cruisers which are actually 1/3 the size of a standard Covenant frigate, the Jul’s forces only lost one actual cruiser comparable to an actual capital ship. The Infinity still failed to secure the Requiem, and Jul Mdama succeeded in disabling and boarding Infinity, and then making off with their top Forerunner scientist and the only human who seems to understand how to fix the Infinity’s engines when they decide to develop a mind of their own.
>
> In all honesty, the only reason Jul didn’t use deadly ship killing force against the Infinity was because that would have killed Hasley, who he wanted alive. If she wasn’t in the equation, I’ve got no doubt Song of Retribution would have smashed Infinity to scrap metal. (No one has ever been able to come up with a satisfactory counter argument as to why Infinity didn’t attempt engage Song of Retribution right away if it was so superior to its Covenant counterpart in every way conceivable, and the answer in my mind is that Lasky didn’t think Infinity could. The counter as to why Jul didn’t destroy the Infinity right away is because he needed Hasley alive and she was aboard Infinity)
>
> Keep in mind despite his faction’s rag-tag appearance, Jul still has the resources to outfit every single Sangheili warrior under his command with energy shielding comparable to the energy shielding used by Covenant era Sangheili. The UNSC by comparison is still outfitting its army and marine’s forces with conventional body armour and helmets not dissimilar to what we use today.
You’re analogy is probably more accurate, but the Sangheili’s manufacturing and engineering capability is vastly reduced without the Covenant. Not only do they lack the specialised Huragok, they also lack the organisation the Covenant provided.
You’re right about their being Sangheili engineers and medics, but percentage wise I am sure there are many less when compared to humanity, who have been operating independently. Remember Broken Circle takes place just after the signing of the Writ of Union, so the Elites and Prophets are only just beginning to work together and have not yet diverged into their seperate roles (as seen when prophets sre sent on a combat mission, something that seems inconceivable in the modern era, barring prelates).
Jul only has superior technology because it already existed. A splinter group such as his lack the infrastructure and funds to mass produce their own equipment, and while I agree that they could perform repairs and maintenance to a certain extent, I seriously doubt Jul’s fleet would receive the upkeep that ships of the Covenant navy would receive.
I completely agree with everything regarding Requiem and the Infinity’s (exaggerated) power.
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> > > > > > > > > A lot of people really enjoy trying to downplay the Infinity because they don’t like the idea of human supremacy, but the fact that the Infinity casually put a massive hole in the MA, when Earths entire ODP network couldn’t even scratch it (the same ODP’s that would wreck the Covenants best ships with ease), or the fact that the Infinity solo’d Juls entire fleet at Requiem, should really tell you about the massive power gap between the Infinity and the Covenant fleets. The only ship that could even come close to doing anything is the Dreadnought, but that didn’t arrive until very late in the battle anyway.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > So the answer is yes, the UNSC would’ve won Earth if they had post-war Infinity, and quite easily too.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > And a lot of people exaggerate its power. It didn’t casually put a hole in the MA, it used its most powerful cannons to create a hole barely large enough for a fighter to pass through, and even then it was fixed almost immediately. All that is said about the ODPs is ‘MAC defences ineffective’. This doesn’t mean that those shots weren’t denting the MA’s armour too, they just didn’t slow the ship down seeing as any hull breach is repaired seconds later.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > And as someone has stated, Jul’s fleet is a ragtag gang of whatever ships he can get his hands on. A couple of CAS carriers, in my mind, would be able to to take on the Infinity. In fact, I’m sure in one of the comics a pair of CAS and their supporting craft fight the Infinity to a standstill. Considering how many assault carriers were at Earth (we don’t have solid numbers, but there were likely dozens) and it suddenly seems like the Infinity is completely outgunned.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > This is what I mean by downplaying the Infinity. The hole wasn’t even close to “barely large enough for a Broadsword”, if you wanted to you could’ve fit more than 50 in there no problem. Times that 50 by the Broadswords dimensions and you’ve got a massive hole that would cripple even a CSO. And this is assuming a CSO and the Didacts personal flagship have the same durability levels, which they absolutely do not. “the hole was fixed almost immediately” Unless you’re implying any Covenant ship aside from the Dreadnought can also do that, that’s irrelevant. As far as the ODP’s allegedly piercing the MA as well (contrary to the evidence), I’m just going to chalk this up as a Hitchens Razor and move on. It’s also worth mentioning that of the four SMAC’s on the Infinity, the Infinity only fired two of them, and once each. There’s no reason it wouldn’t constantly spam all four at the Battle of Earth.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Downplay Juls fleet as much as you want, the fact still stands that the Infinity solo’d them, as well as their Promethean allies (something the Covenant didn’t even have). As far as the fight in Escalation goes, it was again Juls entire fleet against just the Infinity, and again the infinity destroyed most of them, only for Jul and his two CAS’s to retreat. The only thing impressive about this is that the CAS’s survived at all. “there were likely dozens of CAS’s at Earth” Dozens that were reduced to just three even without the Infinity, that’s not good. And I just remembered that, aside from Regrets tiny fleet, most of the ships at Earth were piloted by Brutes, who were approximately 3 times less intelligent in naval combat than the Elites were (who weren’t too bright compared to the Humans in their own right), making this even more of a stomp than it already was.
> >
> > Woah were are you getting that the LOS engaged with the reach ODP network? Not to mention truths fleet does not have any COS on record.
>
> I’ll admit that there’s nothing explicitly stating the LNoS engaged the ODPs, but it was decloaked for two days and remained in orbit around Reach. We know the Epsilon Eridani Fleet didn’t just avoid the LNoS, as Carter says all their nukes are either out system or went down with ships that carried them, alluding to a space battle that the LNoS won. I can’t imagine the UNSC ships engaging without ODP support, and due to a CSO’s sheer size and advanced shields I can imagine it tanking at least a couple of ODP shots.
>
> We don’t know if Truth had CSOs, but he did have many CAS carriers. The point I was making is that ODPs can’t one shot every Covenant ship, and therefore the Infinity’s likely can’t either.
You are forgetting that the infinity is using much more advanced versions of the ODP Mac gun. In addition we know all the ODPs we’re still operational for the main battle of reach. The CAS is barley close to 5.4 km long the LOS is about 30km the sheer difference between the two classes means you can not use that as an example of why a regular covenant capital ship does not get one shot especially since we don’t know if the COS engaged ODPs. You are drawing several conclusions from this that do not stand up just like some of the other posters here. More specifically about the battle of Earth, untill we get official numbers for what and how many ships attacked Earth we can not answer this question. We don’t even know how many UNSC ships were at Earth or how many ODPs we’re left.