Weapon Drills: Weapon Rankings

Games Halo Infinite
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I did some testing with all of the weapons in the Academy, the weapon drills are actually really good for testing the sandbox out and comparing scores. The different challenges test the weapons in different situations, for example:

  • Challenge 1: This would be like encountering an unsuspecting stationary enemy (or enemies) within optimal range and optimal situations (for example with Sentinel Beam they are lined up perfectly). This is basically the best measure of maximum damage output for a weapon.

  • Challenge 2: This would be like encountering an unsuspecting mobile enemy, that may or may not be in optimal range or optimal situations (for example with the Sentinel Beam enemies are no longer standing still in a perfect line). The targets are mobile but predictable. This is a good indicator of standard potential damage output for a weapon.

  • Challenge 3: This would be like encountering an enemy who is aware you are targeting them and they are actively trying to evade your shots. This is a good indicator of a weapon’s ease of use (combined with standard potential damage output). I feel like this challenge is the most “real” application so when taking averages I counted this one twice: Average Score = (C1 + C2 + C3 x 2) / 4. These challenges also all use 45 seconds compared to 30 seconds.

Before getting into the data there are a couple points that need to be stated:

First of all, it goes without saying that these scores are just my scores. I consider myself to be an above average Halo player but I play on pretty standard sensitivity so that limits my reaction time for some challenges. Other players may be more proficient with some weapons, but I feel like I’m a good measure of the standard controller player.

Secondly, the weapons in multiplayer and the weapon drills are not the same. For example, the AR, Hydra (free fire), and Mangler (body shots) takes more shots to kill in multiplayer than in the weapon drills. I tried to compensate for this with adjusted scores which are all explained, but let me know if anything is missing or inaccurate. (PS, moving forward 343 really should update the Weapon Drills so they use the most up to date versions of weapons for testing).

Lastly, this is only an indicator of a weapons potential damage output, it does not take into consideration a weapon’s range. The BR75 will obviously outclass a lot of weapons since it is effective at any range and easy to use, despite its lower score. On the other hand, the Pulse Carbine shreds at mid range, but is totally ineffective at close or long range. Rather than figure out how to give an adjusted score for range versatility, I decided to just state the weapon scores and let you compare them under the assumption that players are only using specific weapons in the specific ranges they are meant to be used for. For example comparing the BR75 and the Stalker Rifle is a worthy comparison, comparing the BR75 and the Bulldog is not. Additionally, weapons that have a very fast reload time are going to perform better in weapon challenges but that doesn’t necessarily mean they will perform as good in a 1v1 scenario. For example, the Pulse Carbine can be cooled down between target acquisition so you never really have to “reload”, which leads to more damage output over 30 seconds but maybe another weapon like the Commando would provide more damage output over a single magazine.

With that said let’s get into the Data (Skip this section if you just want to see the final list and thoughts - this data is just included for reference), starting with Tier 1.

TIER 1 WEAPONS: Commonly Available
Average Score (Adjusted) = 21,940

ASSAULT & TACTICAL RIFLES
BR75 Average = 22,090

  • Challenge 1: 20,435
  • Challenge 2: 18,320
  • Challenge 3: 24,800

MA40 AR Average = 22,805 (Adjusted = 21,285)

  • Challenge 1: 22,805 (Adjusted = 21,285)
  • Challenge 2: 20,685 (Adjusted = 19,305)
  • Challenge 3: 23,865 (Adjusted = 22,275)

***Note: Academy optimal kill = 14 shots, Multiplayer optimal kill = 15 shots.

Pulse Carbine Average = 24,790

  • Challenge 1: 27,810
  • Challenge 2: 18,240
  • Challenge 3: 28,315

***Note: Average = (C1 + C2 + C3) / 3. For the Pulse Carbine specifically, Challenge 3 is not a more worthy indicator of ease of use than Challenge 2 in my opinion.

VK78 Commando Average = 22,375

  • Challenge 1: 22,170
  • Challenge 2: 18,695
  • Challenge 3: 24,320

SIDEARMS
Disruptor Average = 18,950 (Adjusted = 19,950)

  • Challenge 1: 17,135
  • Challenge 2: 18,355
  • Challenge 3: 20,155

***Note: Assisted by fusion coils but DOT effect doesn’t add to score. +1000 EMP.

Mangler Average = 23,390 (Adjusted = 21,470)

  • Challenge 1: 19,510
  • Challenge 2: 17,450
  • Challenge 3: 28,295 (Adjusted = 24,255)

***Note: Academy optimal kill = 3 body shots, Multiplayer optimal kill = 3 shots with a headshot. For Challenge 3 you are likely to miss headshots with Mangler’s projectiles so I adjusted for an average of 3.5 shots per kill. +100 Melee.

MK50 Sidekick Average = 27,310

  • Challenge 1: 26,600
  • Challenge 2: 21,495
  • Challenge 3: 30,570

Plasma Pistol Average = 15,230 (Adjusted = 16,230)

  • Challenge 1: 19,360
  • Challenge 2: 14,050
  • Challenge 3: 13,750

*Note: +1000 Charged Shot

TIER 2 WEAPONS: Controlled Spawns
Average Score (Adjusted) = 25,970

SMG’s
Needler Average = 23,795

  • Challenge 1: 24,175
  • Challenge 2: 12,385
  • Challenge 3: 34,830

***Note: Average = (C1 + C2 + C3) / 3. For the Needler specifically, Challenge 3 is not a more worthy indicator of ease of use than Challenge 2 in my opinion.

Sentinel Beam Average = 25,000

  • Challenge 1: 31,985
  • Challenge 2: 20,190
  • Challenge 3: 23,915

SNIPER RIFLES
Shock Rifle Average = 35,080 (Adjusted = 36,180)

  • Challenge 1: 36,285
  • Challenge 2: 33,820
  • Challenge 3: 35,130

***Note: +1000 EMP, +100 Melee

Stalker Rifle Average = 27,140

  • Challenge 1: 26,050
  • Challenge 2: 26,175
  • Challenge 3: 28,170

SHOTGUNS
CQS48 Bulldog Average = 28,165

  • Challenge 1: 27,390
  • Challenge 2: 24,130
  • Challenge 3: 30,570

Heatwave Average = 28,230

  • Challenge 1: 33,355
  • Challenge 2: 22,310
  • Challenge 3: 28,630

LAUNCHERS
Hydra Average = 21,260 (Adjusted = 17,660)

  • Challenge 1: 34,150 (Adjusted = 22,765)
  • Challenge 2: 21,040 (Adjusted = 14,025)
  • Challenge 3: 14,920

***Note: Academy optimal kill = 2 free fire shots, Multiplayer optimal kill = 3 free fire shots. Challenges 1 and 2 are also 45 seconds instead of 30 seconds, presumably to make up for the slow reload time. +1000 Vehicle Damage.

Ravager Average = 20,460 (Adjusted = 21,560)

  • Challenge 1: 19,400
  • Challenge 2: 14,050
  • Challenge 3: 24,195

***Note: +1000 Charged Shot, +100 Melee

TIER 3 WEAPONS: Power Weapons
Average Score (Adjusted) = 32,710

  • Used 30,000 as placeholders for the Energy Sword and Gravity Hammer.

SNIPER RIFLES
S7 Sniper Average = 36,565 (Adjusted = 37,565)

  • Challenge 1: 32,055
  • Challenge 2: 30,050
  • Challenge 3: 42,080

***Note: +1000 Vehicle Damage

Skewer Average = 16,555 (Adjusted = 25,930)

  • Challenge 1: 16,060 (Adjusted = 24,090)
  • Challenge 2: 14,050 (Adjusted = 21,075)
  • Challenge 3: 18,050 (Adjusted = 27,075)

***Note: Adjusted for reload time, similar to the Hydra. +1000 Vehicle Damage, +100 Melee.

LAUNCHERS
Cindershot Average = 25,835 (Adjusted = 26,835)

  • Challenge 1: 22,160
  • Challenge 2: 33,070
  • Challenge 3: 24,050

***Note: +1000 Vehicle Damage.

M41 SPNKR Average = 51,915 (Adjusted = 44,935)

  • Challenge 1: 60,050
  • Challenge 2: 39,640
  • Challenge 3: 56,050

***Note: Every Challenge has multiple enemies. If a challenge had single enemies (which is a more likely encounter) the score would likely be 20,000 for Challenge 1, this was factord in to the Adjusted average. +1000 Vehicle Damage.

FINAL RANKINGS

  1. M41 SPNKR = 44,935*
  2. S7 Sniper = 37,565*
  3. Shock Rifle = 36,180*
    — Tier 3 Average = 32,710 —
  4. Heatwave = 28,230
  5. CQS48 Bulldog = 28,165
  6. MK50 Sidekick = 27,310
  7. Stalker Rifle = 27,140
  8. Cindershot = 26,835*
    — Tier 2 Average = 25,970 —
  9. Skewer = 25,930*
  10. Sentinel Beam = 25,000
  11. Pulse Carbine = 24,790
  12. Needler = 23,795
  13. VK78 Commando = 22,375
  14. BR75 = 22,090
    — Tier 1 Average = 21,940 —
  15. Ravager = 21,560*
  16. Mangler = 21,470*
  17. MA40 AR = 21,285*
  18. Disruptor = 19,950*
  19. Hydra = 17,660*
  20. Plasma Pistol = 16,720*

FINAL THOUGHTS

Shock Rifle:

  • This weapon should really be considered a Tier 3 power weapon. It is a one shot kill if you hit a headshot at any range, this makes it as lethal as the S7 Sniper. It is an interesting alternative to the Sniper since it takes one more body shot to kill but the Shock damage jumps to nearby enemies.

CQS48 Bulldog:

  • This gun is way to similar to the Heatwave IMO. It makes no sense to replace the Classic Shotgun with the Bulldog when you already have a weaker, semi-auto Shotgun in the game like the Heatwave.

MK50 Sidekick:

  • This might sound controversial but I think the evidence speaks for itself, the Sidekick needs a nerf. The fact that this weapon overpowers the Commando is enough to warrant a nerf. The Sidekick is the best Tier 1 weapon in the game and you spawn with it as a Secondary, it is even better than most Tier 2 weapons. It takes some skill to use, but anyone with a fast trigger finger (or a modded controller) that can aim will own with this weapon. Lore-wise, does it make sense that the Sidekick is 7 shots to kill while the Commando is 8, the AR 15, the BR 12? I just think the Sidekick should be used as a standard sidearm, fast to switch to and a one shot kill on unshielded enemies, it doesn’t need to be the “go to” weapon, that’s just my opinion. Changing the shots to kill from 7 to 8 would still leave this weapon as a respectable option while making the Commando more viable. This change would presumably drop the Sidekick to 11 on this list, still a top weapon in Tier 1 but much more balanced.

Cindershot:

  • As a power weapon the cindershot seems underwhelming, but even more so when compared to its counterpart the SPNKR. I find myself just shooting at my feet whenever I encounter an enemy at close range. Does anyone use the aim guiding feature on this weapon? What is the point when you need multiple shots to kill? The cindershot bounces before imploding, but it instantly implodes if it hits an enemy, what if a direct hit was a one shot kill? This would give function to the aim guiding feature, the projectiles are effected by gravity so without guiding your shots you are unlikely to hit an enemy directly at range.

Skewer:

  • A great addition, but it clearly isn’t in the same class as the S7 Sniper, it is more like the Spartan Laser than a Sniper.

Sentinel Beam:

  • This weapon greatly benefits from the high score from Challenge 1, in which 2-3 stationary enemies are placed in a line for you to shoot, which never happens in multiplayer. The reality is, it is inferior to the other Tier 2 close range Hardlight weapon the Heatwave, and when other SMG’s get added to the game it will not stand out. If it wasn’t for the piercing beam feature this weapon would be more in line with the standard AR than anything else. I proposed the following idea for an Automated Sentry ability for the Sentinel Beam to make it more interesting: https://forums.halowaypoint.com/t/sandbox-sentinel-beam/511853/17

Pulse Carbine:

  • For the many that say this gun needs a buff, no it does not. It dominates mid range engagements, the TTK is even faster if you switch to a Sidekick to finish off an enemy once their Shields are down.

VK78 Commando:

  • I think this weapon is fairly well balanced (aside from being weaker than the Sidekick). The only thing I find is I run out of ammo quickly, maybe it needs one less body shot to kill or a bigger magazine capacity, 24 shots instead of 20?

Ravager:

  • It’s a fine line for a burst fire weapon but this thing needs a buff. Maybe the charged shot should just be a one hit-kill if it is a direct hit? This would almost make it like the rail gun, however with the rate that the plasma reserve is burned up it would be a balanced Tier 2 weapon.

Mangler:

  • With Melee damage reportedly being nerfed the Mangler is going to become useless. IF you manage to hit your headshots with this weapon it is the best Tier 1 weapon (aside from the Sidekick), however with how hard it is to use it is closer to the worst Tier 1 weapon. I think the projectiles should travel slightly faster which would allow players to hit their targets more consistently. The Mangler should feel more like a Magnum, which means it should be closer to the Sidekick in power.

MA40 AR:

  • I’ve seen people claim this weapon is overpowered for a Default starting weapon, the results suggest otherwise, in fact it is one of the weaker weapons in the game. I’d be fine with reducing ammo capacity from 36 to 32, if the Sidekick is nerfed this gives it more function forcing players to switch to their secondary more often to finish a kill.

Disruptor:

  • A pretty useless gun, but it is unique. It doesn’t have to be better than the AR or Sidekick because it is different with its EMP effect, it’s chain shock damage, and its DOT.

Hydra:

  • Apart from destroying vehicles in BTB, this thing really sucks at the moment. It is really challenging to hit enemies with the free fire mode and if you use the lock on mode it needs 4 shots to kill one enemy, given that you only get 6 shots before a reload you can only kill one person with this weapon at a time. I think the Hydra should just be a 3 shot kill no matter what firing mode you use, maybe the projectiles should travel faster if you are using the free fire mode.

Plasma Pistol:

  • The weakest weapon in the game on its own, but when paired with a Sidekick or a Melee it has one of the fastest TTK’s in the game.

Final Thought:
The results here aren’t meant to say this gun is definitely better than this gun, but with context I think it is useful data. What do you think about the above results with respect to the weapons sandbox?

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Interesting data and thoughts, thanks for doing this and sharing.

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A fine bunch of tests and overall assessments of the guns (such as the AR and Pulse Carbine in particular) with a bunch of the proposed tweaks I agree with (Hydra and Sidekick).

As much as I like the Bulldog, I do have to agree that it’s a little bit redundant when you have the Heatwave. Between the two, I personally like the Bulldog better and think that it has a place in BTB still with its longer range while any of the old shotguns that get introduced into Infinite could maybe take its place in Arena what with the much smaller maps and domination of weapons like the Energy Sword in particular.

Cindershot is indeed the wonkiest of the power weapons (although personally the Reach Grenade Launcher remains the wonkiest for me overall when it comes to bouncing projectiles) and would like to see some revisions or something done to it while the Ravager hopefully gets enough of the upcoming buffs to be viable.

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Shock Rifle:

  • It should either be tier-3 or stop sharing a pad with the Stalker Rifle.

Bulldog:

  • Agree. It’s complete helpless against the other CQC weapons and the Heatwave matches it in CQC and outranges it. The Bulldog is much easier to use though.

Sidekick:

  • Agree. I don’t mind it be inefficient 7|12 or 10|12 shots to kill. Because if you need to reload, it reloads FAST. So fast it might be better than switching to your other gun. But a starting gun with such a low TTK is problematic.

Cindershot:

  • It’s feels so weird to use. I like it and think it’s good, but I’d much rather prefer the Grenade Launcher. I do think it being a 1-shot would make it more desirable, but they would need to make the magazine smaller. The laser guidance is dubious. It’s really only good for hitting stationary targets or vehicles. But having to stand out in the open makes the function so dangerous.

Love, the skewer, but this is its problem it’s not a good sniper or a good vehicle killer IMO. Frankly, the S7 is more effective at killing vehicles anyways. I don’t want the Skewer to change, but I don’t think it’s the solution to the Spartan Laser.

Pulse Carbine:

  • I still don’t like it even though I’ve learned to use it. My issue with it is that it’s worthless at close range, which probably makes it the only gun in Halo to have the problem ever. But that can be fixed by improving the tracking.

Commando:

  • This thing is screwed beyond belief. It’s supposed to bridge the line between autos and precision by being both, but it sucks at both. Shooting it full auto is practically worth less since the bloom and heavy recoil makes every shot miss and you spend the entire magazine fighting your own gun.
    .
    As a precision gun, everything about about it is designed to make you miss. Bloom is bloom and shouldn’t be on precision guns. Period. The recoil either forces you to aim for the chest or forces you aim above the head (where you miss subsequent shots). And on top of everything, you have have 50-65% accuracy. So Rings save you if you miss a shot.
    .
    I agree that it could use a larger magazine, if they insist on keep everything else the way it is.

Ravager:

  • There’s too much wrong with this thing for a single comment. I know I made comment about it somewhere so I’ll try to find it later. It has most of my thought about it. But it’s getting buffed so who cares!

Some of my Ravager thoughts:
https://forums.halowaypoint.com/t/in-defense-of-the-ravager/505249

Mangler:

  • Just gonna wait till season 2. I did see a video of someone who tested the damage, and the Melee → Bodyshot combo will basically do 99.99999% damage to a full health spartan. So if they have ANY damage done to them when they come around the corner, they’re dead. But we’ll see how it does soon enough, I guess.

Assault Rifle:

  • I actually think it has too little ammo. The AR is completely dictated by TTK since it’s braindead easy to use (which is totally ok). Having a larger mag would give 343 more options on how to control its TTK. It’s a lot to talk about in one comment, but the gist is that they should balance TTK around magazine size and fire rate to get the perfect TTK that’s not too fast or too slow. A smaller magazine makes this harder to achieve.

Plasma Pistol:

  • When the primary fire is more useful than the charge shot, you know you messed up. #FreeTheEMP

Disruptor:

  • One of those big brain weapons that doesn’t really benefit from a straight up fight, but it’s great for overshielded foes.

Hydra:

  • I like it, but it needs work. Dumb fire is a 2-shot (direct hit), combos into melee a la Mangler, and it’s a 3 shot for splash damage. Respectable. Lock-on is where the issues arise. It’s a four shot (idk if splash damage matters since it shouldn’t be missing). This is awful for the reasons you mentioned, but also because of its slow reload. I think the lock-on should be move to a 3 shot. Or bring it back to it’s H5 glory but only make it useful with lock-on and stop trying to make it act like a discount Brute Shot.

Good post.

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@Shanesaw9 I found the link for my thoughts on the ravager. It’s in my edited comment.

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Good post.

You mentioned buffing the primary fire damage to be a two burst kill, unfortunately I think that would be too much. This would boost the score of the Ravager here to +30,000 making it one of the top guns in the game. I think the primary fire should be buffed to needing 7 shots to kill instead of 9, so it still requires 3 bursts, but it doesnt require you to hit every shot of those 3 bursts.

That in combination with your proposed idea for improving the charged shot so it is harder to escape / easier to charge hold charge / has a longer effect (or my idea that a direct hit should be an instant kill - which i think makes sense lore wise you’d be engulfed in burning plasma) should be enough to make this a respectable tier 2 weapon IMO.

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You also need to keep in mind the ammo capacity for the Ravager. It’s a tier-2 gun so, you won’t find more ammo until it’s used up and despawns. On a single 100% charge, how many kills can it get? I know it can use the charge shot 4 times (assuming you fire it immediately and don’t hold it for too long), but what about the primary? How many shots does it get before it runs dry? How many shots does it get before it overheats?

If I remember correctly 343 said they were buffing it back to a 6-shot (2 burst) and adding slash damage.

But let me ask you this: Where is the line between a Tier-2 and a Tier-3? What makes the difference?

What you said about the Ravager killing in 7 shots is something I’ve though about with the Heatwave too. It kills with 12 pellets, 2x6 (or 2 shots). In theory, buffing it to a 9-shot would keep the TTK the same but increase the value of its Rebound function. The fundamental problem with rebounding is that 343 is basically asking players to actively not aim at a target they can see. Decreasing the number of shots would at least increase the likelihood that you kill them with chip damage. It’s why I feel the Scattershot didn’t really succeed in H4-5. Why bounce shots when you can just shoot them directly? Infinite has improved on this greatly, but I don’t think it’s perfect.

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I think ammo capacity isn’t an issue, and it is easy to adjust.

For the Ravager, if every Charged shot used 20% you could likely get 4 charged shots off with a little extra for primary fire (same capacity as the Skewer essentially). If every primary burst of fire was 3% you could get 33 bursts off (11 kills potentially), for comparison the BR can get 36 bursts off (9 kills potentially).

I have no idea what the Ravagers current capacity is but the above seems balanced.

What I worry about for the Ravager being a 2 burst kill is that it will essentially be just as deadly as every Shotgun and SMG in the game at close range, which I don’t think is the intent of the weapon.

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As it stands, it’s as deadly as the shotguns because it’s one of the guns with the Shoot → Melee combo. But I don’t think a gun’s ability to do that should really matter on if it’s too strong. The Sniper and Hydra can do it (Sniper’s only saving grace in CQC, Hydra is still considered weak).

The reintroduction of splash damage might actually make the ravager less effective in CQC now because players may become more cautious when using it.

Ammo capacity just depends on how long 343 want it to be effective during a match. Rockets in ranked only have 2 shot instead of the standard 4 in social, for example.

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What I meant was the Heatwave is a 2 shot kill, if the Ravager is a 2 shot kill then its just as effective as the shotguns at close quarters… but it can do so much more than the shotguns so what’s the point of the shotguns then?

Just because the Sniper is a one shot melee does not mean it is an effective close range weapon, it takes more precision than the Shotgun.

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That’s on me, I should have been clearer. I was just saying that in terms of TTK, the shotguns, Ravager and sniper are all equal when a player uses the melee combo. So two players clashing would end in a trade (in theory). But yes, the shotguns are easier to use in CQC and will win more often. The sniper just isn’t completely helpless simply because the matchup is bad.

As for the ravager being better that the shotguns in CQC, that’s why I asked where the line between tier-2 and tier-3 is. The ravager has two firing modes which makes it harder to balance. Ideally you want both modes to be useful.

Compare the Plasma Pistol with the Plasma Rifle (any game). The PP has persisted across the franchise and is even regarded as one of the best weapons in the game because of its charge shot. However, its primary fire still competes with the PR in terms of shield damage. But the Plasma Rifle, the supposed big brother of the two has been left in the dust and has only recently (Halo 5) been seen as a genuine threat. Part of this has to do with having two fire modes. Even if the PP’s primary fire is weak, it can still fall back on its very strong alt-fire. Where the PR outshines the PP is that it can actually get a kill, but that wasn’t the case is earlier Halo games.

Going back to the Ravager, it’s in a similar situation where it potentially could become an overpowered weapon. Instead it’s seen as one of the least effective guns in the game. For all the reasons that I listed (Charge Time, Battery Decay, and the actual effectiveness of the AoE). But its primary fire is also weak, along with being relatively harder to aim. I think it’s fine for other Same-Tier weapons to out class each other (i.e. Mangler vs Plasma/Disruptor)

If buffing the Ravager to become a reasonably competent weapon makes it perform better than the shotguns in CQC, perhaps the Ravager is just simply a better gun (which is ok). But I’m still in the camp that the Bulldog is too weak which is why every gun keeps out-classing it or performing too well in CQC. The Heatwave is fine as a 2-shot because it’s not really a shotgun (in the video game sense). It can technically 2 shot a player from mid map. And to be frank, if the Brute Shot/Concussion Rifle were in this game, it would compete very well against CQC weapons with its knockback ability.

Basically what I’m trying to say is if you’re worried that the Ravager might become too strong with the wrong type of adjustment, you might be right. Because the Ravager, being 2 guns in 1, simply has a higher power-ceiling than its other tier-2 guns (except maybe the Shock Rifle).

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Good points, I guess in the end I just feel that the Ravager should play to it’s Secondary fire (the charged shot) more than its primary fire because the charged shot is a more unique role.

I think the one burst, one melee kill is fair for the Ravager (It is a tier 2 weapon, just don’t get into a Melee engagement if you don’t want to die by it). I think the primary burst fire should be improved (because it is difficult to aim) but I don’t think it should be a two burst kill (like the Heatwave or Bulldog), which is why I advocate for the buff from 9 projectiles to 7. Where I really think the Ravager needs a buff is in the charged shot, and I think it is relatively simple, the charged Ravager shot leaves behind burning plasma, if you get hit directly with that charged shot you should be engulfed in the burning plasma (therefore a one hit kill). It could even be death from DOT that you can’t escape.

I don’t think anyone could state that a Tier 2 weapon with one-hit kill potential is useless, but it would be balanced due to charge capacity and the fact that it must be charged to use. It would be powerful yet balanced and unique IMO, while the charged shot would also be more useful vs vehicles if it stuck to them for direct hits which would make it a better counterpart for the Hydra as well.

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This ended being a much longer response than I planned, so I’m only responding to these specific parts of your post:

I respond to the rest in a separate comment.

I agree, the Ravager’s charge shot IS more unique, and should be the reason players are attracted to the gun. As it stand, that is why people bother with the ravager at all. But I don’t think it’s lingering effect is good enough.

Let’s compare it to other area denial weapons/items in the series:

  • Sticky Det. - A direct hit is a kill or turns an enemy (or ally) into a walking time bomb.

  • Grenade Launcher - A direct hit is a kill, minimal contact an EMP’d vehicle/shields.

  • Plasma Caster - A direct hit is a stick/kill (nerfed version of Sticky Det.)

  • Plasma Caster White Scar Variant - Same, but also has proximity bombs that can kill if you get too close.

  • Firebombs/Flamethrower - Direct hit is a kill, lingering effect is also a kill.

  • Splinter Grenades- Direct hit is a kill or EMP’d vehicle. Lingering effect is also a kill (minimal contact).
    NOTE: H4’s Pulse Grenade can also EMP, and full damage will kill.

  • Dynamo Grenades/Power Drain - Minimal contact will EMP a vehicle (both), chains damage to allies (dynamo), EMPs shields (Power Drain)

  • Trip Mine - Close proximity produces heavy damage or a kill.

  • Threat Sensor - Minimal contact will reveal you to all enemies, a direct hit carry that detection without for the duration of the sensor (making you a threat to your allies).

I know some of these aren’t tier-2 weapons, have varying levels of skill requirements and some of them are grenades/equipment and have to be valued differently, but they are area denial items all the same. What I want to communicate is that all of these items have immediate effects that you do not want to be on the wrong end of.

What does the Ravager (charge shot) do?

  • A direct hit will strip shields, unable to kill.
    NOTE: It can detonate dormant grenades, resulting in a kill, but this is a random factor that can’t really be predicted. And the kill is attributed to the grenade, not the Ravager. Also I’m unsure if it works on grenade spawn pads.

  • Minimal contact will do light damage.

  • You can’t grapple while the shot is charged, unless you do some button combo (Plasma Pistol has this trait too).

So in terms of damage, it’s on par with the Power Drain and Dynamo Grenade, which is a good thing. However, it doesn’t have the benefit of EMPing vehicles. Both fire modes actually do considerable damage to vehicles, but vehicles aren’t just going to sit in the puddle (unless you EMP them) and that’s obviously useless against aircraft.

This is only for the initial hit, as a lingering effect, it’s almost a non-threat. Like I said, it does low damage, and can’t kill unless the target is weakened significantly. But also the effect is 2-dimensional. You can just jump over the puddle (or grapple, thrust), or sprint through it quickly. Most of the other items I listed create 3-dimensional denial zones:

  • Sticky Det., Grenade Launcher, Trip Mine - Large explosion radius

  • Plasma Caster/White Scar - You can change the size of the radius by aiming at the ceiling/a high place and letting the cluster bombs rain down in a wider area.

  • Splinter/Pulse/Dynamo Grenades, Power Drain, Threat Sensor - All leave long-lasting, active (hurt?)boxes with various, but devastating effects.

  • Firebombs/Flamethrower - These leave a 2D denial zone, but their lethality (directly and indirectly).

Another thing to think about is how long do all of these items remain active. I think the Sticky Det. would stay primed for 30 seconds. The Threat Sensor ping 3 times before breaking. Dynamos last for a few seconds, but the EMP effect last for a few seconds more. Does the Ravager deny an area long enough?

So, in my unprofessional opinion, I think the Ravager Charge Shot should:

  1. Be able to kill a full health Spartan. They way I see it is if a player is dumb enough to stand in the goo for the full duration, they kind of deserve it.

  2. Make the goo pool larger or last longer.

  3. Make the pool drain shields faster. If it puts players in 1-shot condition, they will try to avoid the pool altogether instead of just running through it.

I don’t know if it needs all 3 of these, but it needs something.

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Another possible option to balance the primary fire with the shotguns is by decreasing its rate of fire. Since the shotguns aren’t 1-shot kills anymore, they can’t be governed by reaction time (not completely). Rate of fire could help them perform better. Think about it. If the bulldog can put out its second shot before the Ravager can, then the bulldog would in scenarios where the user doesn’t miss a shot (a missed shot makes it anyone’s game, obviously the ravager user can’t miss their shots either). Also I think this would help with the Bulldog/Heatwave vs Sword match up. The bulldog usually needs a 3rd shot because you have to start firing early to guarantee that the sword user is 1-shot by the time they are in range.

This logic can go the other way too. Keep the ravager as a 3-shot kill, but speed up its fire rate so the TTK isn’t so long. H3’s Brute Shot was a 3-shot kill and also had a very aggressive fire rate, for example.

I agree with this. The Charge shot should kill, especially given how much ammo it consumes (not including batter drain). There is one problem with you proposal (if I’m understand you correctly). You want the charge shot to leave a DoT status effect on players that walk through the goo which will eventually kill them. It would also be in line with how fire effects have worked in the past. I like it except, that it may infringe on the Disruptor’s turf.

That’s said, I don’t think that’s a bad thing. I don’t have a problem with guns being a bit redundant and having some overlap. With your idea, the Ravager would be capable of halting shield regeneration on multiple enemies, while the disruptor could only do it one at a time. Since the Disruptor is a lower tier, it would make sense that the Ravager could do its job better. The charge up would still make the Disruptor the quicker option though.

I love how charge-up guns are balance because you can’t just whip out a bunch of damage on a whim.

Some sort of lingering damage that sticks to vehicles would be interesting. The closest thing we seen to something like that was H4’s Stick Det. Stick it to a car and blow it up at you convenience. H5’s Plasma Caster. The initial explosion would like do some damage, but the cluster bombs would be left behind. And Reach’s Plasma Launcher, a lengthy charge time results in 4 homing plasma grenades with enough power to kill a tank (this would make a good tier-3, Banished equivalent of the Hydra IMO and be a good counter to Wasps and Banshees).

I think that’s all I really have to say about the Ravager. I told you I had a lot to say about it :sweat_smile: Anyways, if you wanna move to talking about some of the other guns you tested, I’d be down.

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Great discussion, I agree if the Ravager is to be a 2-burst kill than the rate of fire should at least be nerfed. This is also acceptable. Maybe the burst itself just needs to have great time between its 3 projectiles which means you have to stay aimed on your target longer during shots.

For DOT effect it would be almost instantaneos… kind’ve like a oh crap I’m screwed feeling when you get stuck with a plasma grenade, giving the effected player one last second to possible try and get some revenge / redemption.

All things considered, the Ravager can definitely be an interesting weapon once it is implemented correctly.

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Yeah, the Ravager being a burst shot naturally makes it tricky to balance. It’s hard to aim, which is a natural balance not unlike the sniper. And you can get reduced damage, similar to the BR.

Exactly. This what I was getting at with all that talk about threat sensors and stuff. The threat those items pose is felt upon contact (EMP, location revealed, damage, etc.)

I forgot to mention this, but are you familiar with Titanfall 2? And if you are, then you know how Scorch’s Thermite Launcher and Incendiary Trap work, right? I think having the primary fire leave tiny pools of goo that do damage could be an option as well. Really lean into that “floor is lava” idea. Of course Scorch is much more useful because Titans can’t jump. This would likely nerf the primary fire in CQC because you’re much more likely to hurt yourself. In fact the Ravager’s charge shot is pretty much the worst thing you can use in CQC right now.

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I’m not familiar with Titanfall but it sounds like the Bio Rifle from Unreal Tournament (which I often draw inspiration from for Halo idea haha).

This idea also makes sense, it fits the theme of the weapon (area denial).

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Just look up some Titanfall 2 Scorch gameplay and you see what I mean.

Here’s the Scorch Trailer video. It’s just a quick look at all of his abilities:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jG-rWOGAIUE

And here’s a gameplay video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOEYVX4wdyU

Basically the entire titan’s playstyle is based around area denial.

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Something we haven’t mentioned is how the Missile Pod fits into all of this.

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I think the Missile Pod is kind of already covered by the Hydra, however the Turret with its air to ground missiles is interesting. Going back to the Titanfall discussion with walkers, the Reaver is a Banished Walker that is used for anti-air in Halo War 2. Maybe it would be interesting to bring this walker into Halo Infinite, it would essentially have back mounted missile pods that could be used to lock onto air vehicles while the free fire mode would just launch air to ground missiles as a way of indirect fire.

So it would essentially be an AA vehicle (true to Halo Wars 2) but it wouldn’t be totally useless vs ground targets.

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