flinch is just another one of those Random Factors, your screen bounces up, down, left, right randomly. with descoping there was much more skill involved in lining up your shots for an effective quickscope. Any weapon could be balanced against a sniper: automatics shoot more bullets giving more of a chance to knock a sniper or precision weapon out of scope, semi long range weapons could knock snipers out of scope with their percision specialty
> If de scoping knocked your headshot off and prevented you from firing for a second or so then i could see your point. But it doesn’t. I can still pull the trigger and land my head shot. De scoping doesn’t keep me from doming with the sniper.
>
> How ever with flinching i have to constantly re adjust my aim. Buying time for people that want to move on the map.
How many times are you aiming perfectly still with a sniper rifle?
Most times your aimer is moving, and if you get descoped it will continue moving, and at a much faster pace. Hence, you will miss the shot anyway. They can continue to pepper you, negating you the ability to scope back in and shoot back (unless timed correctly, which is a skill in itself).
This will force you to retreat to avoid death, and give them the upper hand. With flinch, all I have to do is shoot after they fire the second or third bullet (before they fire the fourth) and peg them in the head because I wasn’t disoriented and could keep my target in sight.
Now, for weapons like the DMR, this also becomes a problem in BTB. I challenge when I get shot all the time, because I don’t have to worry about not being able to hit them. All I have to do is pull my aimer down and continue shooting without a care, despite the fact that they managed to hit me and should have had a bit of time to get away.
Spartan Laser is also affected by lack of de-scoping, because before if you were aiming on target (and generally following it) if you got shot, you would scope out and there was a larger chance of you missing your shot. In Halo 4, your reticule flinchs up a bit but when you are aiming at a tank or mantis, you’re probably going to hit it anyway because flinch isn’t substantial enough.
> > > i HATED descoping and am so glad 343 did away with it. scoped fights were such a joke. each player having to rescope 3 or 4 times; laughably stupid. promotes camping too. obviously whoever gets descoped first dives for cover being at a disadvatage. at least with flinch scoped battles are resolved. makes more physical sense too, i woundnt “descope” after shot, i should just flinch. good riddance to descoping
> >
> > How does getting descoped PROMOTE camping? That is the most ridiculous thing I have read on the forums yet.
> >
> > Would you rather:
> >
> > Sit with the sniper knowing that no one can take away your range? (Current)
> > Sit with the sniper knowing that you are vulnerable (Descoping)
> >
> > … Your logic eludes me
>
> I feel like, with de-scoping, it puts things way too much in the favor of the person who gets the first shot off, because they might have bullet magnetism on their enemy (being scoped in) while the enemy wouldn’t have the same.
>
> That being said, descoping is still preferable to flinching by a long shot (seewhatididthere?)
Ah, but all that would need to happen would be for one person to be the bait, and the other person to descope the camper while he was busy shooting at someone else.
Boom, teamwork promoted.
With flinch, it doesn’t matter if you are getting shot by another guy after having put 3 shots into a guy, because (massive amounts of magnetism combined with aim assist and massive reticule range) you can still hit him even if your scope is bouncing a bit. Just finish the kill and step back for a second.
Boom, teamwork not promoted.
Yea I feel like de-scope is just a “Halo thing” and should all ways be in any Halo.
Features like this combined with others are what is unbalancing Halo, there is no need for a close or mid range weapon anymore because the long range ones are just as effective at those ranges as well as being absolutely dominant from afar. 343i has really dug themselves into a whole on this one, hopefully they have the sense to start digging their way out.
But regardless of if they will or will not bring it back in this game, it is important that we make a fuss about it, so that they know it needs fixing, or at least so that they can’t say that they didn’t know. It is really too bad that these forums have to be such a negative place, but when you have a game this flawed, necessary action has to be taken.
> Yea I feel like de-scope is just a “Halo thing” and should all ways be in any Halo.
I can’t believe this is still even a topic for debate. De-Scoping is Halo. If you hate De-scoping then you hate Halo and you shouldn’t mess it up for the rest of us.
> > > > > i HATED descoping and am so glad 343 did away with it. scoped fights were such a joke. each player having to rescope 3 or 4 times; laughably stupid. promotes camping too. obviously whoever gets descoped first dives for cover being at a disadvatage. at least with flinch scoped battles are resolved. makes more physical sense too, i woundnt “descope” after shot, i should just flinch. good riddance to descoping
> > > >
> > > > Yes, because if you were ever shot in real life you would keep your eye right on that scope no problem.
> > >
> > > im not talking about “me” im talking about my armored shielded spartan supersoldier
> >
> > Are you saying that your half ton armored spartan with energy shielding would flinch when hit by a bullet?
> >
> > How would that work?
> >
> > <mark>Does the shield emitter somehow overload when absorbing damage resulting in an overload of the system carrying over to the suit’s servo system in a way that the upper torso tilts slightly upwards?</mark>
> >
> > Does the single bullet’s kinetic force somehow carry over from the shield to the spartans upper body forcing it backwards and in turn result in a slight tilt upwards?
> >
> > The kinetic force of a bullet is very very small, so I really doubt it would even flinch an unshielded armored spartan. The bullet is not meant to send people flying like you see in action movies, it’s supposed to trash organs. Even if the bullet did stop on the skin with the kinetic force it does have, it wouldn’t send a human flying. Seen people with kevlar getting shot flying everywhere?
> >
> > Descoping is actually a more logical feature than flinch.
> >
> > It can be seen as a safety feature for the user. It’s easier to look around unscoped than scoped, so any scoped person wouldn’t need to unscoped if he/she suspects he’s getting shot from an angle he/she can’t see in the scope.
>
> English please! LOL just kidding you make a good point.
Actually there’s a major reason marksman are taught to shoot with both eyes open… The non-scoped eye helps maintain relative position to one’s surroundings and keep the “peripheral” open.
As for flinch vs de-scoping in lore. De-scoping near very little sense because a Spartan isn’t looking through a scope, they’re looking through a visor that relays the weapons relative position and shooting angle directly onto said visor.
Flinching can and will occur on a Spartans, Elites and even Prometheans… But I also concede that it’s a matter of energy shielding strength for flinching to become moot.
That is because Spartans may weigh 1 ton and have inertial damping properties in their suits, however an arm doesn’t weigh 1 ton and a DMR’s 7.62mm high powered bullet, least alone a SRS99’s 14.5mm sabot round, can and will cause an arm to flinch with low and 0 shielding. In fact the DMR round is likely to puncture many of the medium and light armour grade suit pieces when there is 0 shielding (and definitely the undersuit)… You think a Spartan will flinch when a bullet actual punctures? Hell ya.
As for the inertial dampening, it’s only to protect the wearer from impact force, it doesn’t prevent physics from happening. Spartans are not immovable objects and unstoppable forces can and will cause limps to move, least alone bodies to lift.
We’re not using weak weapons here, the AR fires a 7.62mm NATO round with a barrel cushioning system to allow for a short ranged heavy hitter. The DMR uses a higher grain count and likely match grade components (hence why we don’t use AR ammo for the DMR).
It’s very likely the AR’s rounds are the same we use in current weapons, ie capable of passing through a 12" tree trunk and the soldier wearing body armour on the other side and the DMR’s rounds are even more powerful. Likely an 18"-24" tree and a soldier would still pose little problem.
So how does this transfer to gameplay? Well the amount of damage given causes flinch… Except for the LR’s scoped shot which actually has a greatly reduced flinch vs damage ratio… But it also kills in 5 body shots and doesn’t descope.
This mechanic allows many things.
-
The LR to be a more consistent weapon of its type. It’s likely descoping makes this weapon random and frustrating on a level greater than the 100%DMR.
-
Players aren’t forced to use low thumbstick sensitivities just so they can use long range weapons. By proxy, players are less hindered by swapping between weapons to use the advantages of niche specific weaponry.
In other words, players can more consistently use multiple weapon types and not have to worry about changing their overall right-stick movements. -
Can’t claim fullautos are too powerful, maps are too big or gameplay is too small if everyone can reliably engage with their scopes.
By proxy, no sense on complaining that CQB combat is dead if said complainer only ever intends to use is a scoped weapon or a powerweapon (especially on maps that aren’t much wider than 80’). -
There is a trade to use the scoped function very reliably. Either use up an armour mod to keep very long distances (which is pretty silly considering the potential usefulness of other mods and sprint being present) or attempt to stay in the 20-30m range against the enemy as best as possible.
This latter suggestion is how one played H3. Either a player chose to engage unreliably at range or they got in close (and took time doing so) to get within RRR so that unscoped shots could be more reliably used.
> As for flinch vs de-scoping in lore. De-scoping near very little sense because a Spartan isn’t looking through a scope, they’re looking through a visor that relays the weapons relative position and shooting angle directly onto said visor.
> Flinching can and will occur on a Spartans, Elites and even Prometheans… But I also concede that it’s a matter of energy shielding strength for flinching to become moot.
> That is because Spartans may weigh 1 ton and have inertial damping properties in their suits, however an arm doesn’t weigh 1 ton and a DMR’s 7.62mm high powered bullet, least alone a SRS99’s 14.5mm sabot round, can and will cause an arm to flinch with low and 0 shielding. In fact the DMR round is likely to puncture many of the medium and light armour grade suit pieces when there is 0 shielding (and definitely the undersuit)… You think a Spartan will flinch when a bullet actual punctures? Hell ya.
>
> As for the inertial dampening, it’s only to protect the wearer from impact force, it doesn’t prevent physics from happening. Spartans are not immovable objects and unstoppable forces can and will cause limps to move, least alone bodies to lift.
> We’re not using weak weapons here, the AR fires a 7.62mm NATO round with a barrel cushioning system to allow for a short ranged heavy hitter. The DMR uses a higher grain count and likely match grade components (hence why we don’t use AR ammo for the DMR).
> It’s very likely the AR’s rounds are the same we use in current weapons, ie capable of passing through a 12" tree trunk and the soldier wearing body armour on the other side and the DMR’s rounds are even more powerful. Likely an 18"-24" tree and a soldier would still pose little problem.
Frankly, neither of the mechanics make any sense lore wise. Bullets, regardless of extremely high velocities, carry very little momentum due to their insignificant mass. The difference in mass of a bullet compared to that of an armored Spartan is, for a 50. caliber round is approximately four orders of magnitude. That is, in a space with no additional forces, a 50. caliber bullet would have to be fired at 10,000 m/s to get the Spartan move at 1 m/s.
When you add the Mjolnir armor to the equation that, as far as my understanding goes, due to the artificial “muscles”, only moves if the Spartan wants it to (with the exception of extreme levels of force), very little flinch would be expected even with high caliber rounds.
Of course, it’s also about the transfer rate of the momentum rather than only the pure momentum itself. The force, in high velocity collisions, of course is extremely high and hence momentum is transferred very fast. But nonetheless, the momentum of a 1,000 m/s 50. caliber round will only make the Spartan “move” at 0.1 m/s. Considering the response time of a Spartan is in tens of milliseconds, they would only move about 4-5 millimeters at most before they stopped the movement.
Of course that is, again, in ideal conditions. An immobile Spartan would, due to the armor, be essentially a 500 kg titanium frame with a weapon attached to it. I wouldn’t expect even a high caliber sniper rifle to cause it to flinch.
Are people seriously arguing about the lore and if descoping/flinch makes sense in Halo? Gameplay wise, what was wrong with descoping?
Flinch was a stupid idea and I hope it never returns. It was just to make the game more like Call of Duty. I kid you not points to GDC Panel. Bring back descoping, and the power of the DMR and the Sniper will be decreased. We may be able to actually move around the map again!
Halo 1 - De-scoping (no issues)
Halo 2 - De-scoping (no issues)
Halo 3 - De-Scoping (no issues)
Halo: Reach - De-scoping (no issues)
Halo 4 - Flinch (issues)
Leading into Halo 4, De-scoping somehow became an issue and was replaced with flinch, probably because someone who was hired disliked this feature and pushed for it. It works in Call of Duty and Battlefield, but it does not work in Halo. Flinch is random and can not be really be countered without the stability perk (which is not even offered as an option in custom games). De-scoping was an added skill to the game, something that took practice to get down so that you could win more long range battles. I personally have not heard anyone complain about de-scoping since I started playing Halo. If someone complained about it, it was usually because they were lackluster at it and were losing battles. It adds skill gap, makes the game less random, and becomes something that can set you apart from the next guy. De-scoping has been one of the staples of Halo and it was changed without reason.
They tried to fix something that was not broken, they tried to make Halo more appealing to the class based shooter game crowd and the decision was not well received by a large section of the community.
> Halo 1 - De-scoping (no issues)
> Halo 2 - De-scoping (no issues)
> Halo 3 - De-Scoping (no issues)
> Halo: Reach - De-scoping (no issues)
> Halo 4 - Flinch (issues)
>
> Leading into Halo 4, De-scoping somehow became an issue and was replaced with flinch, probably because someone who was hired disliked this feature and pushed for it. It works in Call of Duty and Battlefield, but it does not work in Halo. Flinch is random and can not be really be countered without the stability perk (which is not even offered as an option in custom games). De-scoping was an added skill to the game, something that took practice to get down so that you could win more long range battles. I personally have not heard anyone complain about de-scoping since I started playing Halo. If someone complained about it, it was usually because they were lackluster at it and were losing battles. It adds skill gap, makes the game less random, and becomes something that can set you apart from the next guy. De-scoping has been one of the staples of Halo and it was changed without reason.
>
> They tried to fix something that was not broken, they tried to make Halo more appealing to the class based shooter game crowd and the decision was not well received by a large section of the community.
Actually, I do remember some people having issues with de-scoping. In fact, I’d argue everyone has had issues with it at some points. The issue is, when you constantly get immediately knocked out of scope when zooming back in. Despite it being primarily the player’s own fault in the sense that if they are locked in an encounter, zooming back in isn’t necessarily the ideal approach, it’s a frustrating experience, and I don’t find it at all difficult to imagine that a large portion of the player base would have wanted to get rid of it.
That’s not an argument against de-scope. It still undeniably works better for gameplay than flinch or nothing at all. However, from a user experience perspective, it certainly isn’t optimal. Personally, I don’t find flinch to be any better. I find it worse, in fact, as it hinders my ability to control my aim. Nonetheless, I would say there may be a substantial portion of players who, while necessarily don’t want to keep flinch, but also don’t want de-scope back.
> > If de scoping knocked your headshot off and prevented you from firing for a second or so then i could see your point. But it doesn’t. I can still pull the trigger and land my head shot. De scoping doesn’t keep me from doming with the sniper.
> >
> > How ever with flinching i have to constantly re adjust my aim. Buying time for people that want to move on the map.
>
> How many times are you aiming perfectly still with a sniper rifle?
>
> Most times your aimer is moving, and if you get descoped it will continue moving, and at a much faster pace. Hence, you will miss the shot anyway. They can continue to pepper you, negating you the ability to scope back in and shoot back (unless timed correctly, which is a skill in itself).
>
> This will force you to retreat to avoid death, and give them the upper hand. With flinch, all I have to do is shoot after they fire the second or third bullet (before they fire the fourth) and peg them in the head because I wasn’t disoriented and could keep my target in sight.
>
> Now, for weapons like the DMR, this also becomes a problem in BTB. I challenge when I get shot all the time, because I don’t have to worry about not being able to hit them. All I have to do is pull my aimer down and continue shooting without a care, despite the fact that they managed to hit me and should have had a bit of time to get away.
>
> Spartan Laser is also affected by lack of de-scoping, because before if you were aiming on target (and generally following it) if you got shot, you would scope out and there was a larger chance of you missing your shot. In Halo 4, your reticule flinchs up a bit but when you are aiming at a tank or mantis, you’re probably going to hit it anyway because flinch isn’t substantial enough.
I hardly ever missed with the spartan laser in halo 3. De scoping hardly effected me. You can ask any of my friends i was the designated sniper/spartan laser user. De scoping only becomes an issue if multiple people are shooting at me. But the same could also be said of flinching. But in my own personnel experience because of how i snipe that rarely happens.
(i snipe a few people and move snipe a few and move) In a 1v1 flinching is more of a challenge to deal with. in 2 v sniper or more de scoping would be more of a hassle. But still. you asked me how often am i shooting a moving target and its very often. But back in halo 3 and reach i only really every got shot at by a stand still target which due to de scoping i could just head shot.
Some people can handle the randomness of flinch. I can’t. I have a far easier time dealing with de scoping then with flinching.
> Frankly, neither of the mechanics make any sense lore wise.
I’ll agree to disagree that one is a lesser of two evils as one needs a bit of modification and/or is made consistently active in times in-game where it wouldn’t be active in lore
But do Spartans ever run out of stamina like in H4? Or do AR bullets not register headshots in lore like in-game?
> Bullets, regardless of extremely high velocities, carry very little momentum due to their insignificant mass. The difference in mass of a bullet compared to that of an armored Spartan is, for a 50. caliber round is approximately four orders of magnitude. That is, in a space with no additional forces, a 50. caliber bullet would have to be fired at 10,000 m/s to get the Spartan move at 1 m/s.
I do believe I noted that that the overall mass of a Spartan does not matter, limps can and will be effected by momentum transfer. I said it wasn’t about hitting a Spartan in total weight, it was about how and where a Spartan is hit.
Now note I concede that Spartans, like Elites, are much more durable with shields up and not likely to feel many single “low” energy impacts until their shields are low or down (I believe I noted that above too). But the suit is far from impervious and shields are not the end all on infantry (or even many vehicles).
Now the total impact force of a standard grain NATO round within effective distance is 2,586 ft·lb (3506 N/m) with an spinning and pointed diameter of 7.62mm.
Not the Spartan, but an appendage shot, ya there’s going to be flinch here and there. And does it matter much? I’m betting only when making precise shots (ie, scoped).
But would a Spartan with overshields feel a DMR and flinch? I’m going to have to say it would take a few shots concentrated on a single appendage simultaneously to cause a flinch, if at all. Even suit variant could greatly effect a Spartan’s ability to withstand various forces.
Note:
The 7.62mmAP has a rated penetration against armour given as:
300 meters: 0.28 in (7 mm)
500 meters: 0.2 in (5 mm)
This is where medium and light armour, as referenced before, is definitely going to loose against a DMR (and not necessarily a single BR bullet can but subsequent hits ala Sarge’s BR from Harvest will).
It’s especially why a knife carried by a Spartan will crack a helm, least alone many of the rifled rounds used by the UNSC.
It’s also why a shot to no (and possibly low) shields is definitely going to ruin a Spartan’s day.
The shotgun is actually a very ineffective weapon against MJOLNIR unless point blank to the undersuit or to the visor. It may actually be good as a shield dropper but their isn’t much a ball bearing based scattershot gun is going to do against the suit unless point blank.
Not pointy spinning projectiles at enough velocity to penetrate, the suits refracts the impact around the user, the undersuit is strong enough to withstand a direct hit except in extreme point blank shots. Obviously the armour plating is going to stop everything. The visor is a very obvious weak point in most helms
> Of course that is, again, in ideal conditions. An immobile Spartan would, due to the armor, be essentially a 500 kg titanium frame with a weapon attached to it. I wouldn’t expect even a high caliber sniper rifle to cause it to flinch.
Now are we talking any sniper or the SRS99-anti material rifle too? It’s not a natural sniper in itself. It become a designated sniper due to the durability of many Covenant forces. The 14.5mm fin-stabalised armour piercing sabot round fired from an SRS99 has enough length within its body to penetrate armour much thicker than most if not every MJOLNIR suit currently available.
Here is why I LIKE flinch, rather than descoping.
The community has been wailing that they want something that will increase the skill gap, and I think flinch does this WAY better than descoping.
Let me explain; With Descoping, no matter which weapon you’re up against, your gameplay flow is the same:
shoot while scoped-> get shot -> rescope-> continue to shoot
OR
shoot while scoped-> get shot -> stay unscoped -> continue to shoot.
Now, compare this to flinch:
Shoot while scoped -> get shot -> reaim due to flinch -> continue to shoot while scoped
OR
shoot while scoped -> get shot-> unscope-> reaim and shoot unscoped.
Now the only difference in each of these flow charts is re-aiming compared to re-scoping. Personally, I feel it takes more skill to re-aim than it does to re-scope. Having to adjust your aime based on how much you got flinched by is a WAY bigger determination of skill that clicking a thumbstick responsively when you get shot.
That is why I feel flinch is better at creating/maintaining a skill gap than de-scoping.
Beyond this, itde-scoping also breaks gameflow and is potentially disorienting. One of the reasons why teleporters are used so sparingly in halo games (besides teleport camping) is that it breaks the flow of moving through the map. Similarly, being forced out of your scope breaks the user out of their viewing perspective and pushes them into another with (usually) very little warning. Not only is this something that is unexpected and jarring for the new player, but the fact that you can be again de-scoped while you re-scope means that the player loses any good vision of their surroundings for an increased amount of time.
Whether or not a player can intentionally force descopes on others as a tactical or skill based choice is worth note, BUT locking another player into a situation that is difficult for them to determine their surroundings is not good gameplay.
So those are the reasons (skill gap and gameflow) that make me like flinch more than descoping.
> Frankly, neither of the mechanics make any sense lore wise.
Someone here had a theory that De-Scoping is a built-in safety feature of the Spartan helmet that keeps you from being surrounded while you are zooming in on a faraway target.
> I do believe I noted that that the overall mass of a Spartan does not matter, limps can and will be effected by momentum transfer. I said it wasn’t about hitting a Spartan in total weight, it was about how and where a Spartan is hit.
The impact force would be very divided nonetheless. Again, at least when it comes to my understanding on how the armor works, that it only responds to user input, and is otherwise essentially in a locked state. Unless the impact force is very large, it gets divided to the whole mass, and not just the limb. Of course, that’s still with the presumption that such an easy-to-implement and useful feature would have been added into the suit.
Additionally, if we assume the suit doesn’t have such a feature, and that the armored limb weighs 20 kg, and is hit by a 13 gram bullet at 900 m/s, that still translates to 0.5 m/s for the limb’s velocity after the impact. A Spartan would probably reverse the movement before their limb moved an inch.
If the angle of impact was straight from the front, it would only be minor backwards movement. The more the movement would be sideways, the more the bullet would have to come in an angle. So, in any case, I’d claim the sideways momentum vector to be negligible, certainly not enough to cause such a flinch we witness in the game.
I actually really like flinch as opposed to descoping. I do wish, however, that flinch was more consistent and that the stability mod didn’t exist. The BR is a flinch monster, and the carbine barely does anything in terms of flinch, making the BR appeal even more than it already does. As for stability, I think it’s a poor mechanic to implement because, when shooting someone, there is no way to tell whether they have stability or not. In general, for games like Halo, having no way to tell ahead of time what enemy players have in their back pocket contributes to a lot of frustration. It was way the sword was overpowered in Halo 2. It was why equipment could be frustrating in Halo 3. It was why armor lock was so frustrating in Reach. And it’s why flinch is one of the things that’s frustrating about Halo 4.
Not all-encompassing observations by any means. These are just negative contributing factors.
> > Frankly, neither of the mechanics make any sense lore wise.
>
> Someone here had a theory that De-Scoping is a built-in safety feature of the Spartan helmet that keeps you from being surrounded while you are zooming in on a faraway target.
Despite the fact that I’m debating the canonical applications of these mechanics, I don’t think they even need such. Good gameplay should surpass canon and realism in any case. If we have a mechanic in place, then it might be fun to think canonical excuses for it. But no such excuse should disregard the fact that it’s primarily there for gameplay, and regardless of how much it makes sense in canon or the real world, if it’s not a good mechanic, it deserves no place in the game.
De-scoping is just what it is, a gameplay mechanic to add skill to encounters and give the attacking player an advantage the opponent has to overcome. That is, without hindering the consistency and players’ control over the game. It requires no explanation to be implemented. It’s such a minor mechanic.
um… can we get off physics, halo is sci-fi and we are not going to see modern day ammunition in 500years(if we even survive that long…). gameplay wise halo (true) is a great game, and halo 4 needs descoping as flinch is another one of the nonsense changes made after bungie’s last game.
Reasons:
1) descoping requires much more skill at long range and was an idiotic idea to take it out along with adding much more range to all weapons in the game, the reason it took skill is because long ranges fights were all about taking control of who has scope and a very skilled player could win long range battles even being down 2-3(dmr/br) shots/bursts.(long range being mid range in halo 4).
2) flinch is another random factor that cannot be consistently controlled(to all of you new comers who prefer flinch: randomfactors-are-not-a-good-thing-and-arent-true-halo).
3) Halo(true) is not CoD, is a good unique game and should not V DROP V to CoDs level for no reason.
4) descoping takes skill, flinch is random…
5) flinch is random…
6) flinch is random…
…over all descoping takes skill and makes for much better gameplay, listen to True Halo fans 343i