We Don't Really Know Enough

Games Halo 5: Guardians
1

Don’t worry. This isn’t about Halo news. What this IS about is how some of us think that just because they’ve played some Halo, it makes them experts on the more competitive issues of Halo such as how powerful the BR should be. A lot of people come on here and make judgement calls based purely on their individual play experience and maybe what they’ve watched or read from some random source online. This is being done on both sides of the fence, from people who hate Halo 4 to people who like it.

Either way, it needs to stop. Unless you’re an employee of 343/Bungie or are an expert professional gamer who dedicates pure solid MONTHS at a time to learn a particular game, you are simply in over your head and you most likely won’t know what you’re talking about. As they’ve said many times now, 343 listens and pays attention to a lot more than just one thing. They look at hard matchmaking data, player counts, online time, forum posts, social media, player tests, and a lot of other things. Things that a WHOLE BUNCH OF US don’t have access to at all.

I mean, c’mon now. Halo multiplayer is VERY COMPLEX underneath the hood. So complex that they pay certain individuals a lot of money to come in and sort through every single thing to make sure everything’s working properly and to test out new ideas as extensively as possible. So just how qualified are we, ladies and gentlemen, to make a judgement call on things this out of our league?

So, having said that, there is one thing that you can and should make a judgement call on. How fun the game is. Did you enjoy it overall? If not, why? If so, why? And honestly, that’s about all we can really discuss in depth with any degree of accuracy.

2

I agree with you to a point but…I will use your example.

I feel the BR is OP even if I personally don’t know how to fix it I can tell you why it is.

It out classes its counter part ten fold it has the most kills per clip a faster reload time bleed through 2 shot pummel ETC.

This right here can be exp at any time by anyone and yes the BR has always been OP.

And even though I am no pro I have booked enough time to understand the game…other then that I agree for the most part.

This post is like this-----
Person A: “Bad BR is bad”
Person B: “I don’t see you making a better BR”

One does not need to understand all the inner working to understand a mechanic. I would also like to add that I prefer people suggesting fixes to their woes rather then just “OP BR is OP”.

Thanks for reading Also I am not trying to come off snarky/cocky so I am truly sorry if comes off that way ^.^

3

> Don’t worry. This isn’t about Halo news. What this IS about is how some of us think that just because they’ve played some Halo, it makes them experts on the more competitive issues of Halo such as how powerful the BR should be. A lot of people come on here and make judgement calls based purely on their individual play experience and maybe what they’ve watched or read from some random source online. This is being done on both sides of the fence, from people who hate Halo 4 to people who like it.
>
> <mark>Either way, it needs to stop. Unless you’re an employee of 343/Bungie</mark> or are an expert professional gamer who dedicates pure solid MONTHS at a time to learn a particular game, you are simply in over your head and you most likely won’t know what you’re talking about. As they’ve said many times now, 343 listens and pays attention to a lot more than just one thing. They look at hard matchmaking data, player counts, online time, forum posts, social media, player tests, and a lot of other things. Things that a WHOLE BUNCH OF US don’t have access to at all.
>
> I mean, c’mon now. Halo multiplayer is VERY COMPLEX underneath the hood. So complex that they pay certain individuals a lot of money to come in and sort through every single thing to make sure everything’s working properly and to test out new ideas as extensively as possible. So just how qualified are we, ladies and gentlemen, to make a judgement call on things this out of our league?
>
> So, having said that, there is one thing that you can and should make a judgement call on. How fun the game is. Did you enjoy it overall? If not, why? If so, why? And honestly, that’s about all we can really discuss in depth with any degree of accuracy.

Disagree. Its actually the opposite. The players that have 5000 MLG xp in Halo 3, the people that have a 50 in almost every gametype. The people that played slayer guardian, slayer countdown, slayer haven hundrets of times, the people that have hundrets of kills online are actually the people that know most about the game and how it plays competitive. The people with real competitive expirience. (not the “I was going +12 with light riffle in BTB and won” competitive people)

You dont have to be a pro gamer to see most of the issues.

4

343i rebalanced weapons because of fans that know a thing or two about weapon balance.

Also if fans didn’t speak there mind about these things, we would have never got CSR, 4sk BR, Weapon rebalacing and competitive playlists. If 343i didn’t want feedback there wouldn’t a fourm space called War games feedback (Or somthing) :slight_smile:

Edit. It is called War games feedback. Haha :slight_smile:

5

There are certain subjects which require insight I don’t expect most community members to have. These subjects require deep knowledge of programming (e.g. how to make good AI), or mathematics (e.g. good ranking system), or anything else that usually means you have to have formal education to be qualified to discuss it in depth.

Gameplay design is not a hard science. Understanding it doesn’t require formal education (although sciences can help in understanding how mechanics interact), and in fact a great deal can be understood about gameplay design by playing and analyzing games.

There is little difference between a professional player who goes to tournaments, and a hardcore competitive player who has tons of play time in matchmaking. Both have the same potential to understand how the game works, the only difference is that the professional player gets paid for it. The difference between either of these and a developer on the other hand is that the developer has hands-on experience with game design, which always helps.

As far as the discussion of what works best for an ideal game within a set of rules goes, anyone can be qualified to discuss about it regardless of if their profession relates to games or not. Understanding a subject is merely a matter of studying and analyzing it. Anyone who wants to be good at a game is in a position where they have to understand how the mechanics of the game work, at which point they will necessarily learn the problems and limitations of said mechanics.

6

I don’t have to be an expert to tell if something is wrong with the game, just like I don’t need to be an expert to see a crocodile and say it is dangerous.

7

You do make a good point: while most of our feedback is valid, suggestions are usually not. I think that when people make suggestions, they don’t always fully understand the implications of just a simple change. I can’t always fathom how people can say, “just do X and the game will be better because: everyone gets what they want/it will be cool/etc.” How do you know X won’t break the game? It requires hundreds of hours to balance a game; have you played it using those settings for hundreds of hours on all kinds of maps with players of all kinds of skill levels?

343i implemented custom loadouts and random power weapons and no one realized how game-breaking those were until they got a chance to play it themselves. Future changes are no different.

8

Have to agree with Vektor0

> 343i implemented custom loadouts and random power weapons and no one realized how game-breaking those were until they got a chance to play it themselves. Future changes are no different.

343i had a lot of input from people that know a lot of stuff, yet the game they made is loaded with all kinds of problems in just about every area. While I agree that “just do X and everything will be better” is not the best approach, anyone that plays the game that cares knows enough to contribute.

9

Yeah I agree let’s stop back seat developing, dictating the course of a game. With the amount of death threats and moaning they’ve recived would you make a game for those people?

343i tried experimenting and it didn’t work but that doesn’t mean they should go back to the roots instead go do a different approach to the game.

Truth betold we don’t really ever truly know what we want until we have it. I always like to challenge something and say “why can’t we do this?” Or “how can we make this possible?” Because that makes me want to be creative, one time I gave myself a challenge on creating a halo card game concept or I tried to imagine how a acrobatic system would work in halo(not parkour but doing dodges and cool maneuvers) and that’s what I want 343i to do, challenge themselves. They could make a basic halo game and still make millions but I think a lot of us would feel cheaped out.

Even bungie wanted to do so much with the halo franchise and due to the fans and microsoft they were really restricted in their vision so they are gone trying to do that with destiny.

10

> Yeah I agree let’s stop back seat developing, dictating the course of a game. With the amount of death threats and moaning they’ve recived would you make a game for those people?

The death threats are an extreme minority, and are you confusing moaning with constructive and negative criticism? Because you could ignore it, but it will just come back to bite you in the butt especially if you make the claim that you listen to you fans. Most professionals know well to ignore critics at your own risk.

> 343i tried experimenting and it didn’t work but that doesn’t mean they should go back to the roots instead go do a different approach to the game.

Why shouldn’t they go back to their roots? This isn’t to say they can’t try new things, but going back to the core of the old games could at least out them on firmer footing than continuing to try to make Halo into something it isn’t.

> Truth betold we don’t really ever truly know what we want until we have it. I always like to challenge something and say “why can’t we do this?” Or “how can we make this possible?” Because that makes me want to be creative, one time I gave myself a challenge on creating a halo card game concept or I tried to imagine how a acrobatic system would work in halo(not parkour but doing dodges and cool maneuvers) and that’s what I want 343i to do, challenge themselves. <mark>They could make a basic halo game and still make millions but I think a lot of us would feel cheaped out.</mark>

What do you base this on?

> Even bungie wanted to do so much with the halo franchise and due to the fans and microsoft they were really restricted in their vision so they are gone trying to do that with destiny.

Bungie was mostly restricted by time-constraints from Microsoft rather than some imaginary power the fans had.

11

> > Yeah I agree let’s stop back seat developing, dictating the course of a game. With the amount of death threats and moaning they’ve recived would you make a game for those people?
>
> The death threats are an extreme minority, and are you confusing moaning with constructive and negative criticism? Because you could ignore it, but it will just come back to bite you in the butt especially if you make the claim that you listen to you fans. Most professionals know well to ignore critics at your own risk.
>
>
>
> > 343i tried experimenting and it didn’t work but that doesn’t mean they should go back to the roots instead go do a different approach to the game.
>
> Why shouldn’t they go back to their roots? This isn’t to say they can’t try new things, but going back to the core of the old games could at least out them on firmer footing than continuing to try to make Halo into something it isn’t.
>
>
>
> > Truth betold we don’t really ever truly know what we want until we have it. I always like to challenge something and say “why can’t we do this?” Or “how can we make this possible?” Because that makes me want to be creative, one time I gave myself a challenge on creating a halo card game concept or I tried to imagine how a acrobatic system would work in halo(not parkour but doing dodges and cool maneuvers) and that’s what I want 343i to do, challenge themselves. <mark>They could make a basic halo game and still make millions but I think a lot of us would feel cheaped out.</mark>
>
> What do you base this on?
>
>
>
> > Even bungie wanted to do so much with the halo franchise and due to the fans and microsoft they were really restricted in their vision so they are gone trying to do that with destiny.
>
> Bungie was mostly restricted by time-constraints from Microsoft rather than some imaginary power the fans had.

There still death threats, look at what happen to the treyarch dev that got death threats it still can have a serious impact on you. The ones who moan are the stubborn ones that say “it’s my way or the highway” and don’t try to find common ground. By all means there is nothing wrong with critising and making constructive arguments and try to suggest improvements on how it can benefit mostly everyone and not just yourself.

By going back to the roots I just mean use it as starting point and not just stay there

It’s a halo title it will sell a ton on its own just look at the resident evil series. Look at cod ghost were it still sold a lot of money but fans felt cheaped out because it was meant to be the all new call of duty experience and it was the same as the previous ones. Then you look at GTA V were it still would of made a heck load of money no matter what but they went so far beyond anyone’s expectations and became an incredible hit.

12

> I agree with you to a point but…I will use your example.
>
> I feel the BR is OP even if I personally don’t know how to fix it I can tell you why it is.
>
> It out classes its counter part ten fold it has the most kills per clip a faster reload time bleed through 2 shot pummel ETC.
>
> This right here can be exp at any time by anyone and yes the BR has always been OP.
>
>
> And even though I am no pro I have booked enough time to understand the game…other then that I agree for the most part.
>
>
>
> This post is like this-----
> Person A: “Bad BR is bad”
> Person B: “I don’t see you making a better BR”
>
> One does not need to understand all the inner working to understand a mechanic. I would also like to add that I prefer people suggesting fixes to their woes rather then just “OP BR is OP”.
>
> Thanks for reading Also I am not trying to come off snarky/cocky so I am truly sorry if comes off that way ^.^

You know what, let’s give a much harder example, Sprint. A lot of people say it doesn’t belong. A lot of people say it’s just the maps. And a lot of people say that there’s really no problem at all and people just aren’t adapting. Which is it?

> The death threats are an extreme minority, and are you confusing moaning with constructive and negative criticism? Because you could ignore it, but it will just come back to bite you in the butt especially if you make the claim that you listen to you fans. Most professionals know well to ignore critics at your own risk.
>
> Why shouldn’t they go back to their roots? This isn’t to say they can’t try new things, but going back to the core of the old games could at least out them on firmer footing than continuing to try to make Halo into something it isn’t.
>
> What do you base this on?
>
> Bungie was mostly restricted by time-constraints from Microsoft rather than some imaginary power the fans had.

And who are these critics? Why exactly should I listen to just a couple guys opinion to know EXACTLY what’s wrong with a game? Because let’s not forget that a lot of critics can’t even agree with each other in terms of Halo.

You know, I also don’t understand the whole ‘Return to the roots but try new things.’ argument. What does that mean exactly? What gameplay elements has Halo 4 removed from Halo: Reach? None. It’s just added to it. AS YOU GUYS HAVE REQUESTED.

Which brings us back again to the only true judgement we can make. Did we enjoy it? And once again, if you didn’t, that’s fine. We can know the ‘if’ and even the ‘what’ if we think about it. But the ‘why’ and how it should be fixed, that’s something we’ll have problems speculating about all year.

And Bungie wasn’t that restricted by time at all. They’ve been given the standard amount most every dev gets.

13

> You know, I also don’t understand the whole ‘Return to the roots but try new things.’ argument. What does that mean exactly? What gameplay elements has Halo 4 removed from Halo: Reach? None. It’s just added to it. AS YOU GUYS HAVE REQUESTED.

I have no idea what this even means.
If you are saying people requested more things to Halo than what Reach offered, then you would be wrong, since people requested the opposite…

> And Bungie wasn’t that restricted by time at all. They’ve been given the standard amount most every dev gets.

They were restricted by time because of bad choices they made during the development of their Halo games.

Halo 2 says hi.

14

> There still death threats, look at what happen to the treyarch dev that got death threats it still can have a serious impact on you. The ones who moan are the stubborn ones that say “it’s my way or the highway” and don’t try to find common ground. By all means there is nothing wrong with critising and making constructive arguments and try to suggest improvements on how it can benefit mostly everyone and not just yourself.

There are two sides to the “It’s my way or the highway” attitude, you’ve got the people who want to go back and people who want to expand further. Yet if we use the forums as a barometer of what the fanbase wants, and just to be clear this isn’t a concrete analysis meant to determine everything, it seems more people would rather go back to Halo’s roots than continually change up everything.

> It’s a halo title it will sell a ton on its own just look at the resident evil series. Look at cod ghost were it still sold a lot of money but fans felt cheaped out because it was meant to be the all new call of duty experience and it was the same as the previous ones. Then you look at GTA V were it still would of made a heck load of money no matter what but they went so far beyond anyone’s expectations and became an incredible hit.

Except of course the massive amount of the GTAV Online community who criticize the Online component due to a lack of variety in jobs, the sheer difficulty it takes to make money, the abuse of vehicles like the tank and fighter jet in Freeroam, the broken nature of Passive Mode and more. Praising the story mode is one thing, but saying that GTA Online went above expectations shows a lack of understanding towards the actual situation.

15

> If you are saying people requested more things to Halo than what Reach offered, then you would be wrong, since people requested the opposite…

Who’s this “people”? Where’s your sources? Truth is you don’t really have any. Only 343 does.

The people who want to go back to Halo’s roots want it only because they didn’t like Halo 4 and they’re afraid of more change, which is understandable but a bad idea all the same.

> They were restricted by time because of bad choices they made during the development of their Halo games.
>
> Halo 2 says hi.

Be that as it may,

Halo CE Release:
November 15, 2001

Halo 2 Release:
November 9, 2004

Halo 3 Release:
September 25, 2007

Plenty of time between releases. Whether Bungie botched it up or not, my point still stands.

16

This is about MP!
IMO the best approach to this situation is to make everything from scratch.
Having this Spartan wielding a 4sk BR and the classic Red vs. Blue.
Then think about weapons that must be included like the AR, magnum and others.
Now to the covenant: Do we include covenant weapons? If yes, do we also include Elites? Are these weapons balanced?
The same with the forerunners: Are these weapons really reasonable?(Especially the binary rifle and the Incineration Cannon)
So we finished the weaponry.

Next step: Basic Player Traits.

  • Movement: how fast can we walk by default? What about sprint?
    How does that affect the maps (especially in size)? What about gravity or jump height?
  • Health
  • etc.

Then talk about maps and other mandatory things.

After we get a sense of the basics it’s time to talk about innovation:
What could be implemented without breaking the game? What could add more depth to the meta of the game?
Loadouts? The way they were implemented in Halo 4 caused too much imbalance?
No matter how cool new features might sound, if they are not balanced they shouldn’t be in the game! Period!

TL;DR: Create the MP from scratch, try to make the basics as balanced as possible and then try to implement new features only if they add depth and are balanced. If new ideas don’t meet these prerequisites get rid of them.

17

> > There still death threats, look at what happen to the treyarch dev that got death threats it still can have a serious impact on you. The ones who moan are the stubborn ones that say “it’s my way or the highway” and don’t try to find common ground. By all means there is nothing wrong with critising and making constructive arguments and try to suggest improvements on how it can benefit mostly everyone and not just yourself.
>
> There are two sides to the “It’s my way or the highway” attitude, you’ve got the people who want to go back and people who want to expand further. Yet if we use the forums as a barometer of what the fanbase wants, and just to be clear this isn’t a concrete analysis meant to determine everything, it seems more people would rather go back to Halo’s roots than continually change up everything.
>
>
>
> > It’s a halo title it will sell a ton on its own just look at the resident evil series. Look at cod ghost were it still sold a lot of money but fans felt cheaped out because it was meant to be the all new call of duty experience and it was the same as the previous ones. Then you look at GTA V were it still would of made a heck load of money no matter what but they went so far beyond anyone’s expectations and became an incredible hit.
>
> Except of course the massive amount of the GTAV Online community who criticize the Online component due to a lack of variety in jobs, the sheer difficulty it takes to make money, the abuse of vehicles like the tank and fighter jet in Freeroam, the broken nature of Passive Mode and more. Praising the story mode is one thing, but saying that GTA Online went above expectations shows a lack of understanding towards the actual situation.

When you compare GTA V to GTA IV there’s a much bigger variety in jobs and they’ve fixed the lack of jobs with the map creator.

While I do a agree it is a grind it’s a bit understandable for what they were doing especially with the huge amount of content they had. It reminds me of the same approach as reach apart from reach was unnecessary but in GTA V it was to help prevent everyone getting a tank very quickly. That will change once they add the free heist DLC.

In the game when someone does get a tank it is scary but you don’t lose your weapons or anything when killed so it’s less frustrating but they can’t nerf the tank or anything.

There isn’t anything wrong with passive mode they had to nerf it actually because people would get in a car and run over other player and couldn’t get killed so now it’s to prevent spawn killing

GTA V is like Rust or Dayz in the way it’s designed they’ve done the best they can to prevent total frustration but it’s done to player behaviour at the end of the day. It’s like trying to eliminate camping there’s only so much you can do.

18

I can agree with the last part for sure, however some people post suggestions such as ‘The BR is OP’ simply to state what THEY think would make the game better/fun, which like you said is all that matters.
In truth there is always a second side to these suggestions, therefore it is better to find common ground.
But as said, we can’t truly know if it works or is valid.
It takes a lot to recode things like the game data to do things.
Therefore we CAN make suggestions, but we can’t expect it to work.

> Why exactly should I listen to just a couple guys opinion to know EXACTLY what’s wrong with a game?

You don’t, it is of your free will…

> The people who want to go back to Halo’s roots want it only because they didn’t like Halo 4 and they’re afraid of more change, which is understandable but a bad idea all the same.

I’ll just go ahead and ask you how do YOU know that it is a bad idea?
Simply put, you just finished saying the same thing to someone else…
YOUR Opinion is not fact and doesn’t determine whether something is good or bad for the demographic…it only determines if YOU like it.
Besides, your OP seems to disagree with your statement.

19

> I’ll just go ahead and ask you how do YOU know that it is a bad idea?
> Simply put, you just finished saying the same thing to someone else…
> Opinion is not fact and doesn’t determine whether something is good or bad for the demographic…it only determines if YOU like it.
> Besides, your OP seems to disagree with your statement.[/color]

> You can’t really blame people for preferring more of what they already know and like. The trade-off, of course, is that predictability is boring. Repetition is the death of magic.

And this goes for all entertainment, not just games. Movies, books, music, it doesn’t matter. More of anything will increase its staleness.

20

> > I’ll just go ahead and ask you how do YOU know that it is a bad idea?
> > Simply put, you just finished saying the same thing to someone else…
> > Opinion is not fact and doesn’t determine whether something is good or bad for the demographic…it only determines if YOU like it.
> > Besides, your OP seems to disagree with your statement.
>
>
>
> > You can’t really blame people for preferring more of what they already know and like. The trade-off, of course, is that predictability is boring. Repetition is the death of magic.
>
> And this goes for all entertainment, not just games. Movies, books, music, it doesn’t matter. More of anything will increase its staleness.

Being stale is to not have any taste( in this argument, I assume that it is boring). However, if you listened to what they said, it was to use Halo 3 as a BASE, not to ship the game as Halo 3.1!

I personally would agree with what you had said, but only if they wanted a Halo 3.1, here they want to use it as a base, meaning that it would improve and add many mechanics.

But still, it is no matter what one says, that is your opinion and this is mine.
As you said there is no truth, but there is also no falseness. It can beneficial or dangerous.

Just in this case, 343 has stated to be listening to fans and possibly studying the games’ demographic.

As you have stated, yes, this is my opinion, however, numerous media has been shown to change to appeal too their demographic, and that is final. Do I know if 343 would do this? NO! But it is a possibility and a suggestion.

Therefore due to this, when it does become boring, the fans will uproar and the studio will cope with it.(possibility)