Want halo 4/5 art style back

Games Halo Infinite
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> > You do see where your bad faith arguments are, right? If not, I can point them out.
>
> That’d be a change. Especially considering in that prior post there are several acknowledgements of points that you’re making, and fair recognition of constructive criticisms of past and current Halo games. So yes, for once do provide some evidence. Show where these “bad faith arguments” are.

I will give three examples.

First and foremost, there is this:

> I’d demand you back up the accusation of contradicitons, but I know you won’t. Just like you haven’t provided anything, and are now ducking out because “better things to do”.

> I thought you had better things to do than troll-- sorry, “argue about Halo”.

Forcing me into a -Yoink!--if-I-do--Yoink!--if-I-don’t scenario. No matter what I did in response to the first quote, you would have respond with the second quote. If I did not do anything, then you made me look like I coward out. This is straight-up malicious argumentative tactics. I may joke like with the “objective facts” line, the meme or correcting a minor point that ultimately means nothing, but you are trying to manipulate me. And it worked, lmao. If any of that truly offended you, I am sorry, but I do not think any of that came close to the level of toxicity you expressed in the two quotes above.

Point two: Moving the goalpost from art to design.
I am talking about art style. That is the title of the thread, but you keep responding with design. It moves the goal post from the unappealing art direction to, ultimately, 343 made their designs meet the minimum criteria of recognition. Of course both the Harvester and Scarab are inspired by bug designs, but you know very well that is not what I am talking about. Same goes with enemy design and Art style.

You:

> yet even then, Bungie’s art style changed just as much as the change from Halo Reach to Halo 4 in many regards.

Me (after bolding the entire line above):

> I am scratching my head at the line I bolded in your quote. Yes, Reach is different from Halo 3, but it is by no means just as different from Halo 4.

Obviously, this is an opinion, but I am talking about art style. You could have explained how Halo 4’s art style was just as different, but instead…
You:

> The difference between the Sangheili in Halo 3 and Halo Reach is about as extreme as the difference between them in Halo 4. And yet the Sangheili retain the elements that make them recognizably Sangheili: four mandibles, two fingers and two thumbs per hand, digitigrade legs, two toes or “hooves”, elongated neck, reptilian build, etc.

…you repeat the same point without backing it up move the goal post to design. I know there is no measurement between art styles, but I was just hoping you would back up your point. Instead you explain the basic anatomy of an elite as if I didn’t know these similarities. You avoid my statement entirely to explain stuff I already know. I cannot think any reason why you shifted this goal post for any other reason but to try and make me look dumb or because you did not have an answer to my question.

Finally, there is this:

> It does not provide a reliable metric for determining what the majority - if any - prefer. The only way that’s going to be gotten or shown is for every single Halo fan (or at least 80-90% of us) to be directly polled. Until then, it is a non-argument often won-out by Veteran Elitism.

> It’s interesting that you bring up other parts of the internet. Here, 343i support gets ridicule and insults. Don’t deny it, I’ve seen it happen and have received no small amount myself. So why bother?

(BTW, this quote, combined with these forums being a pro-Bungie echo chamber, is why I came to the conclusion you think “…because there are people who give bad-faith criticisms, any good faith actors who believe the same thing should be ignored.”)

> Even then, the statistics would not be accurate. I reject the “statistics” because firstly, we have no statistics. There is not a percentage out there of how many Halo Players prefer Bungie, 343i, or Both. Secondly, statistics are only considered accurate when they present consistent results. All too often polls and statistics are targeted, cultivated, and used to present misinformation. For there to be an accurate metric of showing Halo Fanbase preferences, optimally it would need to be a survey done routinely, as sometimes opinions change. Consider if a hypothetical poll was done right at the close of 2015. Say that it showed, overwhelmingly, that Halo 5 was thoroughly hated by the Fanbase. Would it still be accurate in 2020, when fans were going back to play Halo 5 and saying ”You know, it’s actually not that bad. I can actually enjoy this Halo game”? Of course not.That is largely my objection here. It’s an issue that cannot be proven one way or the other, and largely doesn’t matter.

All of these quote lead to the conclusion that, ultimately, listening to the community at all is a lost cause and 343 should not do it. “Why bother” listening to the forums because of bad-faith actors? Why send out insider surveys if surveys are not reliable enough? This is a ridiculous notion and just terrible business practice. I know this is a tu quoque, but it is still a contradiction nonetheless: why are you even here? If you find no point in these forums, but you are insistent on replying to EVERYONE, being conflicting with EVERYTHING they say and you have over 4,000 posts, I cannot help but feel like you are a troll. I am sorry, but that is just the most logical case. That and the fact someone messaged me this. I know I am just taking his word for it, but from what I have seen here (not just from what I have said, but what you have been saying with everyone else), it makes sense. For the sake of my mental sanity, I am calling this off.

I just want to say: I do not give a damn for the canonical reasons for art-direction changes. Builder vs promethian forerunners, different sub-species of enemies, nano bots, whatever. It is kind of obvious those choices were made after the art direction shift to justify them. It does not make them look good nor does it inherently prevent players from feeling alienated from their favorite franchise. I have no idea why you said all of that.

There is nothing wrong with saying “the art direction does not feel like Halo”. While vague, it is inherently subjective and it is a cry that a fan is alienated from a world they like - maybe from someone who cannot better describe art details. And if you never heard any say of these:

> “colored under suits create poor contrast of colors”, “there is poor silhouette design”, “the designs overall are too noisy and filled with unnecessary detail”, “the materials look too much like plastic”, “the ‘sporty’ paint job creates poor composition of colors”, etc.

…which you say you haven’t…

> Now, where we differ is that I have always encountered this statement made in a vacuum. I’ve never really seen a supporting argument behind it, and it’s just left as is with vague examples of what Halo is that always boil down to “What Bungie Did”.

…I do not believe you. You are making people up and attacking them instead of what people are actually asking for. I am done with this.

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> …I do not believe you. You are making people up and attacking them instead of what people are actually asking for. I am done with this.

We’ll certainly see, and you do you, but this is ironically textbook “Bad Faith Argument”. You’ve already got your mind made up, and have no intention of hearing anything out or engaging in any form of discussion. Making the above post (well, following now) so much wasted time for the both of us. Dare I reply? Why not; but I’m certainly not holding my breath at this point.

> \First and foremost, there is this:

A post made after you completely dismissed my earnest reply. Don’t bother repeating yourself, I know what you think. But to this “point”? You made that bed. The better thing for you to have done is just leave it when you said you were. Just like you have the opportunity here; you’ve said you’re done with this, so be done with it. Doesn’t mean I’m not going to answer to accusations.

> Point two: Moving the goalpost from art to design. I am talking about art style. That is the title of the thread, but you keep responding with design.

Then we may be thinking of two completely different things, and this may be a miscommunication. But I imagine we’re too well past that, aren’t we? Forgoing those apparently confusing words, I’ll try to simplify things. Halo has remained the same in terms of aesthetic theme. The various species and weapons have followed a set pattern and form, and when new things have been introduced - such as the Harvester and various Banished vehicles - they have had a strong and sensible reason for doing so. Despite the changes in details and presentation of form, everything has remained recognizble.

Halo’s aesthetic hasn’t suddenly changed to a style akin to Borderlands, nor has it become anymore cartoonish or animated - in a true sense, not a vapid criticism sense. Halo has never shifted gears to look like Adventure Time, nor has it attempted to be a Steroid Playground where everyone is jacked like Gears of War. Halo has maintained a believably realistic look as much as the graphics of the time have allowed, and this has carried forward with consistency. Not stagnation, but the same things represented as best the technology of the day can offer.

This is what I have been talking about in entirety, so no, no goalpost has been shifted.

> Finally, there is this:

So despite me saying “nowhere have I said anything of the sort. My statements on unconstructive criticism is in regards to unconstructive criticism, and does not broad-brush all criticisms”, you reached an assumed conclusion and ran with it. Fair to assume that you just… didn’t read anything of that post. Maybe skimmed it? Whatever, moving on.

I can’t help your pre-determined conclusion that I’m just trolling. Despite clearly stating that I think 343 should ignore the useless vitriol, and giving credit to constructive criticism.

Again, no bad faith argument made. You do understand what a bad faith argument is, right? For posterity: Bad Faith is a concept in negotiation theory whereby parties pretend to reason to reach settlement, but have no intention to do so. For what it’s worth, when I spend hours making a post to discuss something, that’s not a Bad Faith argument. I’m not about to waste that much of my personal time just to [REDACTED] around and troll people. I do it because I enjoy discussing Halo. And more for posterity, while we’re at it: Trolling is an act of leaving intentionally provocative or offensive messages on the internet in order to get attention, cause trouble or upset someone. Take what you will from that, believe me or don’t I really don’t care, but my goal here is to discuss. Specifically to discuss Halo. To come to understandings and compromises, and maybe chip away at that rock-hard plaque of Nostalgia and get folks to see that Halo has always changed, not always for the better even in the Bungie Era, and that things might not have been as bad as they thought. Maybe that’s a Fool’s Errand, however pure offense is not my goal.

So I don’t really care what you and your annonymous PM’er think. I truly do not. If you don’t want to reply to me or engage with me, then simply don’t. It’s no skin off my back, and I’m sure I can find engaging discussion with others.

> I do not give a damn for the canonical reasons for art-direction changes. Builder vs promethian forerunners, different sub-species of enemies, nano bots, whatever. It is kind of obvious those choices were made after the art direction shift to justify them. It does not make them look good nor does it inherently prevent players from feeling alienated from their favorite franchise. I have no idea why you said all of that.

Bolded for emphasis.

Because it matters in the overall cohesion of the visual aesthetic presentation of Halo. “Why do the Covenant vehicles suddenly look like bugs and crabs?” Because the Sangheili are finding their culture again. I don’t care if it was “added later” (it wasn’t, really; that plot was set by Glasslands which came out before Halo 4 and 5), the canon and the current state of the Universe adds context to the visual change that makes sense. In similar fashion that the Forerunner structures look different. Bluntly, I think it’s absolutely, ridiculously stupid to expect and assume that a Galaxy-spanning culture that lasted for millenia would have the exact same cultural representation all over for all time. We don’t even have that on one planet in one century.

Also it’s clear that you didn’t really read what I wrote, because I did say that I am not a fan of the “nano-bot” explination for the visual change to John-117’s armor, and that I would have prefered that change take place after being on the Infinity.

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TheKiltdHeathen
So for starters I just want to say that I’m saddened by how vitriolic this thread has become, I know you and I already got into a pretty heated discussion back in the movement thread but this thread is something else. Moving right along then.

> Here, 343i support gets ridicule and insults. Don’t deny it, I’ve seen it happen and have received no small amount myself.

Indeed you have and that sucks but old school fans get a fair amount of petty insults slung at them as well, mostly revolving around accusations of nostalgia blindness.

> I think the Bungie artstyle should be left behind because 343i is not Bungie. Bungie’s time is over, and they are not coming back. Halo is 343i’s ship now.

This seems like pretty weak reasoning to me, sure 343 now owns Halo, but that by itself isn’t a good reason for why Bungie’s artstyle should be “left behind” only for why it shouldn’t completely stagnate. As it stands, Halo Infinite contains a mix of Bungie and 343’s artstyle and I think it looks phenomenal.

> I think that forcing 343i into Bungie’s shoes not only stunts their growth as a studio, but that of the Halo Universe as a whole.

Nobody forced 343 into anything, did people complain? Sure. Did they have to listen? Absolutely not. And even so, Halo Infinite is not a copy of Halo 3 or any other Halo, it has tons of unique elements as well as influences from the newer games.

> It limits the visual culture to 2552

No it doesn’t limit the visual culture to 2552 because again Halo Infinite contains influences from across the franchise.

> Turning up one’s nose at 343i’s art style is also grossly disrespectful to the work of the artists for 343i, holding them to the style of others without even considering appreciating their contribution.

I think that you’re currently being grossly disrespectful to the work of the artists at 343 by saying that Bungie’s artstyle is being forced on them even though Halo Infinite is far from a copy of Bungie’s Halos. 343 clearly put in a massive amount of effort and creativity to make Infinite look as good and unique as it does. Certainly there was a much heavier influence from the older games on Infinite than in Halo 4 and 5 but that shouldn’t distract from the influences from Halo 4 and 5 and the new and unique designs.

I generally prefer the artstyles of the older games to a very high degree, but to praise 343 for a moment I have to say that the Banished look absolutely amazing. The black and red color scheme combined with the crude and jerry rigged appearance of most of their armor and equipment makes the Banshied look badass, intimidating and extremely brutish. As a matter of fact, I think the Banished Brutes look vastly superior to the Brutes from Halo 3, I never did care much for the brightly colored and polished armor from Halo 3, it always seemed out of line with what we saw in Halo 2.

> Because Samurai with katanas on their backs was soooo much better. Way more believable for Spartans.

In a vacuum this refutation would be valid but unfortunately 343 went out of their way to canonize multiplayer in ways that Bungie never did. Bungie never attempted to build a ton of lore behind multiplayer by describing it as wargames between Spartans and a testing ground for new prototypes. For this reason, we essentially have to take all of the armor from Halo 4 and 5 more seriously than the other games.

Also yes, although it is impractical, I do think a Katana is still more practical than a unicorn horn.

> The difference between the Sangheili in Halo 3 and Halo Reach is about as extreme as the difference between them in Halo 4.

I have to strongly disagree here, the biggest differences between the Elites in Halo 3 and Reach are with height and posture, they were almost identical otherwise. The Elites in Halo 4 by contrast were given a new tan skintone as well as scaly skin which made them look far more reptilian, and their proportions were warped in a way that made them look top heavy and clumsy. On top of that their eyes were moved forward and down, putting them dangerously close to their mandibles and probably negatively affecting their vision as well.

My bigger problem with Halo 4 and 5 elites however is with their voices and behavior in the cutscenes, their voices in 4 and 5 are obnoxiously deep to the point where they sound more like Brutes than Elites and their movements are downright embarrassingly slow and clumsy in Halo 5, the Act Man said it best when he pointed out how the massive and slow steps being taken by the Eilte general who gets sucked out the airlock make it look like his feet weigh hundreds of pounds each.

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> old school fans get a fair amount of petty insults slung at them as well, mostly revolving around accusations of nostalgia blindness.

Indeed they do, I have seen that happen as well, and sometimes that’s not fair. I say “sometimes” because there are instances of “Nostalgia Blindness”, and I believe that does nothing good for anyone. Granted, it should be the opinion, not the person that is addressed. (And NB isn’t something like ”My favorite Halo is Halo 2”, or thinking that a particular design from older games was a good design to carry forward. It’s sentiments like ”Halo 2 was PERFECT, and it should have stayed like that.” When, in fact, Halo 2 was a development nightmare among the worst Halo has ever seen, and introduced no small amount of controversy with both campaign and multiplayer.

But I think we can carry this forward without insults, yeah?

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> This seems like pretty weak reasoning to me, sure 343 now owns Halo, but that by itself isn’t a good reason for why Bungie’s artstyle should be “left behind”

It’s worded bluntly, yes, but what I meant is more that Nicolas Bouvier is not Shi Kai Wang. I’m going to try and differentiate here: the design of various things has remained relatively the same, and I think this is the important thing. This is what I’m referring to when I talk about things still being recognizable despite the various visual changes. Even the art style changes from the D77 to the D79 Pelican, it’s still recognizable as a Pelican dropship, and hasn’t suddenly become a propellered craft.

The art style has changed in every single game; even the style of Halo 3: ODST was different than that of Halo 3, despite being graphically the same, having a differing atmosphere and “feel” to the game. Vehicles became more detailed, Marine armors changed in appearance, and Covenant species - especially the Sangheili and Jiralhanae - had a differing look in every single game. Even the MJOLNIR Mk VI has a different “style” between Halo 2 and Halo 3, despite having a near-identical design to them.

Now, I do acknowledge that one of the bigger visual changes that saw a lot of justifiable kickback was the change from the MJOLNIR Mk. VI [GEN1] to the MJOLNIR [GEN2] Mk VI. MOD (using retroactive terms for clarity). I did state that "I’m not too keen on the explanation that was given for John-117’s new suit of armor. I would have much preferred to see the Mk. VI, and then after being aboard the Infinity, introduce the MJOLNIR [GEN2]”. I think that would have been a much better handling of things, and been a lot less jarring.

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> Nobody forced 343 into anything, did people complain? Sure. Did they have to listen? Absolutely not.

Rather, I should have said that 343i should not be expected into Bungie’s shoes. Quite true, nothing forced them to make decisions, not exactly, and you are correct that while Halo Infinite is more inspired by Classic styles, it’s not entirely the same and is something new. There’s more to this point, but we’ll get to that in a bit.

> No it doesn’t limit the visual culture to 2552 because again Halo Infinite contains influences from across the franchise.

Yes, Halo Infinite has influences from everywhere, but I still think (my opinion) that if Halo were to retain nothing but elements from the Bungie Era, it would feel aesthetically stagnant. Halo 4 takes place 4 years after Halo 3, and this is after several major breakthrough advances in technology thanks to Forerunner artifacts. Realistically, that’s going to promote a shift in aesthetic design, and we see that represented in a UNSC that is more advanced than the one John left in 2552. Visually, we take part in that paradigm shift, and the feeling that the world left us behind.

In my opinion as well, elements of Halo Infinite that more resemble older styles - specifically the MJOLNIR [GEN3] armor systems - are lore-wise due to return of their design to that of Catherine Halsey, whereas development of the [GEN2] systems were given to various Corporations. Understanding that’s likely not the reason for the visual shift, I think it is a justification that works in-game.

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> I think that you’re currently being grossly disrespectful to the work of the artists at 343 by saying that Bungie’s artstyle is being forced on them even though Halo Infinite is far from a copy of Bungie’s Halos.

Only I’m not talking about Halo Infinite’s art style, nor exactly saying that 343i was forced to do so. What I’m referencing to and objecting to is the Fan-based insistence - specifically through non-constructive criticism - that unless things are entirely representative of the Bungie Era, it’s not “actually Halo”. I’ve seen this far too often, and even if it goes nowhere in development it does nothing but unnecessarily divide the community.

And to add, it’s not just the art. It’s everything from mechanics (as we’ve gone back-and-forth on) to music. Kazuma Jinnouchi did an amazing job on the soundtrack for Halo 5, and I still think it’s one of the best in the entire series. The usage and blending of all themes and pieces - including Opening Suite (CE), One Final Effort (3), and 117 (4) - paid homage to the entirety of the Halo Franchise. His scores set the cultural tone for the modern UNSC, including veteran soldiers like Blue Team, the culture of Sanghelios, and as well the still lingering mysteries and power of the Forerunner Ecumene.

Tom Salta, as well, is heavily slept on in terms of his composition. The tracks of Spartan Assault, Spartan Strike, and even The Fall of Reach do an outstandingly fantastic job at creating new scores and themes while still retaining the sound of Martin O’Donnell’s music. He does a very good job at capturing the themes of 2552, while not relying on recycling specific scores.

The point of this being that new things can certainly be inspired by the old, yet they needn’t be from O’Donnell or Bungie exclusively to be considered “Halo”. This is the sentiment that I object to, and will always object to.

In regards to Infinite’s art style, I’m quite pleased with what I’ve seen and experienced thus far. Currently my only criticism - and has been since around Halo Wars 2 - is that the Jiralhanae look too primate, too much like gorillas (some used art even being an actual gorilla), when the Jiralhanae are still classified as a pseudo-ursine (bear-like) mammalian species. Halo 3 got them just right, I think, and they looked like shaved bears, but not exactly. However the armor and weapons are exceptional, I do agree. I noted on a TikTok I made for the weapons in the Tech Preview that the Skewer and the Ravager absolutely overflow with Jiralhanae culture, and their armor and vehicles carry the same visual roughness.

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> In a vacuum this refutation would be valid but unfortunately 343 went out of their way to canonize multiplayer in ways that Bungie never did.

True, while Bungie never went massively in-depth with the canon of various armor suites, the Hayabusa armor does have placement in the canon. ”In late 2536, RKD - an Earth-based think tank - presented the UNSC Ordnance Committee with the answer to the self-contained powered armor problem: Project HAYABUSA. The critical innovation brought about by RKD’s involvement in the development of power armor is in the use of advanced materials-reducing the weight of current generation armor by nearly a third. Although the two projects were developed wholly independent of one another, projects HAYABUSA and MJOLNIR mirrored each other in many ways”. With the YOROI-class MJOLNIR [GEN3], it’s inclusion in the Multiplayer is slightly canonical, being placed among several Fracture events, which as described will explore things not entirely within the Halo Universe canon. Essentially alternate realities or “What If?” scenarios.

However, in regards to my comment that was quoted above, it is to the perceived notion that Halo has never been “ridiculous” before 343i, with the introduction of the FOTUS-class MJOLNIR [GEN2]. Hayabusa (while I am aware it was a cross-over deal with Team Ninja) was pretty ridiculous. For as much grief as the Spartan-IV’s receive, Emile’s visor is very non-regulation, eccentric, and I would say very un-Spartan like. The point being that there has always been division from what could be considered the “Standard”, and there has been ridiculousness that bends the limits of believability.

On the bright side, such peripheral elements can now be classed away in the Fractures. Belonging, but non-Canonical.

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> Also yes, although it is impractical, I do think a Katana is still more practical than a unicorn horn.

Despite popularity, katanas are actually pretty crap weapons. With Halo 5, the FOTUS horn was canonized as a Forerunner element: “The FOTUS helmet’s torque-node extension represents a breakthrough in replicating Forerunner ‘baffler’ sensor-distortion systems.” While yes, the joke was a unicorn horn, it does bear a fair resemblance to Forerunner systems and aesthetic.

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> I have to strongly disagree here, the biggest differences between the Elites in Halo 3 and Reach are with height and posture, they were almost identical otherwise.

While the in-game models bore a difference in height, canonically Sangheili are always around 8-9 feet tall. However the Sangheili in Halo Reach were far more lithe, their legs were thinner. Their teeth were larger and sharper, and their mandibles thinner, longer, and curved more inward. Their eyes lacked pupil definition and they didn’t have as noticeable of nostrils. Their skulls were shorter and more rounded at the back. Overall they looked more animalistic.

In Halo 4, I think it’s a good thing their skin was given a more reptilian look. They are, after all, a reptilian species. The “top heavy” appearance is more due to the armor, though that is part of the design change. I fault that about as much as the thickness of the armor in Halo 3. However their eyes weren’t moved, rather the joint of their top mandibles was extended further up. No, this wouldn’t negatively affect their eyes or sight, as they are forward facing, nor would it be a danger to their eyes any more so than our eyelids are.

And yes, I remember your views on the movements and voices of the Sangheili in Halo 4 and 5. I still disagree, and maintain that personality variety within a species only makes sense, their voices are really no more deeper than that of Thel ‘Vadam’s, and the cutscene behaviors of the Sangheili are specifically designed to showcase the Spartans, not the Sangheili. They are, after all, the enemy, and in terms of friendly Sangheili such as the Swords of Sanghelios, we see them depicted in a much more honorary light; e.g. Thel climbing a wall with Prophet’s Bane like a [REDACTED} BOSS.

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> Indeed they do, I have seen that happen as well, and sometimes that’s not fair. I say “sometimes” because there are instances of “Nostalgia Blindness”, and I believe that does nothing good for anyone.

Yes nostalgia blindness is a problem but my bigger concern is usually with those who assume that new is the same as better, and what really annoys me is how these “new” things are sometimes not even new, Halo 4 is almost 10 years old now, and Halo 5 isn’t exactly a new game at 6 years old.

> But I think we can carry this forward without insults, yeah?

Of course :slight_smile:

> It’s worded bluntly, yes, but what I meant is more that Nicolas Bouvier is not Shi Kai Wang. I’m going to try and differentiate here: the design of various things has remained relatively the same, and I think this is the important thing. This is what I’m referring to when I talk about things still being recognizable despite the various visual changes. Even the art style changes from the D77 to the D79 Pelican, it’s still recognizable as a Pelican dropship, and hasn’t suddenly become a propellered craft.

Oh ok, I understand where you’re coming from. I want to ask you though, what are your opinions on weapons whose designs have completely changed despite their roles being identical?

The three big examples of this are of course the infamous Pilum rocket launcher, the storm rifle, and the new Bulldog shotgun. Because as far as I’m concerned, these kinds of changes are unacceptable because they aren’t just a new studio’s new take on an older design, but rather they are completely new designs meant to erase the old. Now to be fair, 343 was very nice to bring back the SPNKR rocket launcher after launch as well as bringing back the plasma rifle with some cool variants to boot, but I still think its ridiculous that they were removed in the first place. The Bulldog is particularly troubling due to 343’s admission that the classic shotgun will not be returning, one can only hope that they change their minds about that, same goes for playable Elites.

Another thing I want to add is that in addition to hating the look of the storm rifle, I also think that it is bad for the Halo universe because it doesn’t look like an alien designed weapon but rather a human designed weapon that was painted purple. The plasma rifle had such an alien design with its shape, grip and heat meters but the storm rifle has the same ergonomics and light up display as most human weapons, its downright absurd to think it was designed by aliens, it looks exactly like what you would expect the UNSC to build after reverse engineering covenant weapons. And lastly, the stock is especially frustrating because plasma weapons have little to no recoil, making a stock utterly pointless.

> Yes, Halo Infinite has influences from everywhere, but I still think (my opinion) that if Halo were to retain nothing but elements from the Bungie Era, it would feel aesthetically stagnant.

I agree, my point was that you shouldn’t be worrying since Infinite has done far more than use elements from Bungie.

> In my opinion as well, elements of Halo Infinite that more resemble older styles - specifically the MJOLNIR [GEN3] armor systems - are lore-wise due to return of their design to that of Catherine Halsey, whereas development of the [GEN2] systems were given to various Corporations. Understanding that’s likely not the reason for the visual shift, I think it is a justification that works in-game.

Huh, I didn’t think of it that way, that actually is a pretty good explanation, although I personally don’t think that most changes in art and design need canonical explanations.

> Only I’m not talking about Halo Infinite’s art style, nor exactly saying that 343i was forced to do so. What I’m referencing to and objecting to is the Fan-based insistence - specifically through non-constructive criticism - that unless things are entirely representative of the Bungie Era, it’s not “actually Halo”. I’ve seen this far too often, and even if it goes nowhere in development it does nothing but unnecessarily divide the community.

Ok my mistake, I thought that you were talking about Infinite, I suppose I’m just used to countering this criticism since I’ve seen more than a few people use the phrase “It’s not 2007 anymore” to criticize Infinite.

> And to add, it’s not just the art. It’s everything from mechanics (as we’ve gone back-and-forth on) to music.

Given the title of this thread and our previous arguments I would like to stick to artstyle with the exception of this one point.

> He does a very good job at capturing the themes of 2552, while not relying on recycling specific scores.
>
> The point of this being that new things can certainly be inspired by the old, yet they needn’t be from O’Donnell or Bungie exclusively to be considered “Halo”. This is the sentiment that I object to, and will always object to.

One point: While I do certainly appreciate new songs (117, Requiem and Arrival from Halo 4 are all breathtaking songs) I still think that it is very important for the Halo theme to make a prominent appearance in each mainline Halo game. I was incredibly disappointed when I first booted up Halo 4 to discover that its menu music was not a new variation (such as Never Forget which would have been perfect) of the Halo theme. I understand that each of the main games have had a different menu music, but the first three all tried to keep with that same Halo theme, which I think is very important for the respect and recognizability of a franchise.

> In regards to Infinite’s art style, I’m quite pleased with what I’ve seen and experienced thus far. Currently my only criticism - and has been since around Halo Wars 2 - is that the Jiralhanae look too primate, too much like gorillas (some used art even being an actual gorilla), when the Jiralhanae are still classified as a pseudo-ursine (bear-like) mammalian species.

I have to disagree again with this, I want the Brutes to go back to being super hairy, I think the Brutes were at their best in Halo 2 anniversary. There’s no logical reason for why they need to be hairy, I just think they look much better with hair and that it makes them look much more distinct from the mostly hairless species of the Halo universe. Also they can be hairy and still look like bears, its not as if bears aren’t covered in hair, bears have plenty of hair.

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> True, while Bungie never went massively in-depth with the canon of various armor suites, the Hayabusa armor does have placement in the canon. With the YOROI-class MJOLNIR [GEN3], it’s inclusion in the Multiplayer is slightly canonical, being placed among several Fracture events, which as described will explore things not entirely within the Halo Universe canon. Essentially alternate realities or “What If?” scenarios.

I know that Hayabusa and its new (and amazing looking) [GEN3] counterpart are at least partially cannon, my point was more about how 343’s insistence that the events of multiplayer are canonical and that they should be taken seriously means that their armor should be put under a greater degree of scrutiny.

> However, in regards to my comment that was quoted above, it is to the perceived notion that Halo has never been “ridiculous” before 343i, with the introduction of the FOTUS-class MJOLNIR [GEN2].

I would simply amend the statement to “Halo has never been THIS ridiculous.”

> For as much grief as the Spartan-IV’s receive, Emile’s visor is very non-regulation, eccentric, and I would say very un-Spartan like.

Emile actually tells you if you look at him long enough that he carved his visor himself and that he’s very proud of it, so of course its non-regulation, I’m curious however as to how exactly you think it is un-Spartan like? Emile is far from the only Spartan to modify his own armor in non-regulation ways, I mean even Jorge did and he’s in the same squad.

> Despite popularity, katanas are actually pretty crap weapons.

This is a really complicated and heavily debated topic, but I’ll just say that although Katanas are definitely overhyped by some, they also definitely aren’t crap either, they may have been more brittle than most swords, but they were still plenty deadly.

> With Halo 5, the FOTUS horn was canonized as a Forerunner element: “The FOTUS helmet’s torque-node extension represents a breakthrough in replicating Forerunner ‘baffler’ sensor-distortion systems.” While yes, the joke was a unicorn horn, it does bear a fair resemblance to Forerunner systems and aesthetic.

Again I don’t actually need canon for all pieces of art in game, I just think it looks absurd and that it is extremely impractical, that horn would get caught on things all the time and it provides an excellent handhold for enemies in close quarters combat, and (assuming its not designed to break off easily) it could even break a Spartans neck if it got caught on or in something as a Spartan was moving fast enough.

> However the Sangheili in Halo Reach were far more lithe, their legs were thinner. Their teeth were larger and sharper, and their mandibles thinner, longer, and curved more inward. Their eyes lacked pupil definition and they didn’t have as noticeable of nostrils. Their skulls were shorter and more rounded at the back. Overall they looked more animalistic.

Far more lithe is an exaggeration, they were only somewhat thinner, and all of those other changes are small and hard to notice without looking up close, the changes to the Halo 4 Elites were much more overt, which is what I was getting at since you originally claimed that Reach changed Elites “just as much” as Halo 4 did.

> In Halo 4, I think it’s a good thing their skin was given a more reptilian look. They are, after all, a reptilian species.

They are an alien species that have some reptilian features, my big problem with the scales is that its a retcon since Elites were always shown to have smooth/leathery skin, that and I think the scales look worse, as does the lighter skin tone, but that too is just my opinion.

> The “top heavy” appearance is more due to the armor, though that is part of the design change. I fault that about as much as the thickness of the armor in Halo 3.

There really isn’t any way to know for sure how thick the armor is, so the appearance is all I can really go by.

> However their eyes weren’t moved, rather the joint of their top mandibles was extended further up. No, this wouldn’t negatively affect their eyes or sight, as they are forward facing, nor would it be a danger to their eyes any more so than our eyelids are.

I’ll give you the eyesight point but I’m still not completely convinced that they couldn’t accidently poke their own eyes, if perhaps only involuntarily, regardless I still think the top mandible extension looks very bad.

> And yes, I remember your views on the movements and voices of the Sangheili in Halo 4 and 5. I still disagree, and maintain that personality variety within a species only makes sense, their voices are really no more deeper than that of Thel ‘Vadam’s,

The problem here is that the evil Sangheili in the older games (as well as the honor guard in Halo Wars 2) still spoke in a much more poetic way that didn’t seem so brutish, I view it more as a cultural thing than a personality thing. I suppose that the random general from Halo 5 who went out the airlock was just a particularly loathsome individual lol

> and the cutscene behaviors of the Sangheili are specifically designed to showcase the Spartans, not the Sangheili. They are, after all, the enemy, and in terms of friendly Sangheili such as the Swords of Sanghelios, we see them depicted in a much more honorary light; e.g. Thel climbing a wall with Prophet’s Bane like a [REDACTED} BOSS.

Showcasing the Spartans shouldn’t be used as an excuse to make everything else look pathetic, if anything cutscenes are the perfect place to include competent enemies because its more badass to watch Spartans take down other badasses than it is to watch them shoot through useless drones with such ease and efficiency that all tension is lost. Also I might be more forgiving of these kinds of slow and clumsy movements if they were coming from Storm Elites or other lower ranking Elites, but we see them coming from [REDACTED] Zealots, Generals, and even Jul 'Mdama himself! Now to be clear, I never expected Mdama to take down a whole team of Spartans but what he did instead was downright embarrassing, but not quite as embarrassing as that supposed “Zealot” who literally dropped his own gun before being casually shoved off a cliff.

I guess I’ll end by saying that Halo Reach managed to make the Zealots in Winter Contingency look badass and that it made Noble team seem even more badass by surviving that ambush and proceeding to kill all but one of the Zealots.

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I think halo infinite is how halo SHOULD look. It’s by far the best looking game to me. It’s the gritty and realistic part of reach but with really good detail/lighting like halo 3 had. It also has crazy detail like 4/5 but simplified quality detail and texture

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> 2535418141657688;1:
> Infinite’s art style is…too classical and it doesn’t look like a 2021 game at all and there lots people exist that prefer the 343 time art style than bungie time one.Halo 5 multiplayer is my fav multiplayer in the series so when I got the test I’m a little disappointed

i like also the multiplayer of halo5 but to be honest this new art/old style is amazing, really fits, is the perfect art style. 343 did a great job, i love it, and try it on xbox series x or PC and is much better than most of 2021 games.

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I like the art style in Halo Infinite.

EDIT : Was thinking about Halo 4/5 armour, misunderstanding.

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Nuss902928 I’m working on your reply, but first–

> 2683394777983320;170:
> not too much Power rangers like Halo 4 and 5.

Seriously, what does this even mean?

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> 2535441307847473;166:
> what are your opinions on weapons whose designs have completely changed despite their roles being identical?

  • M57 Pilum: I’m divided on this one. I can definitely understand discontentment - even anger - over the M41 “SPNKr” Jackhammer being replaced with the M57. Especially as they function identical to one another. A slight benefit to the M57 is that it takes up a little less space in the HUD, however this isn’t enough to truly justify it. I think the M57 is good design-wise, and I think that it does match with the aesthetic qualities of the UNSC. However functionally I think it’s wasted potential.

It would have been better had they held differing roles. I would have assigned the M41 as optimally an anti-vehicular weapon, with the ability to lock on to both ground and aerial vehicles, and assign the M57 as primarily an anti-personnel weapon. No tracking, except for the laser-guidance of the Ad Victoriam.

Admittedly I was relieved when they added the M41 back into Warzone for Halo 5, and am pleased to see it return in full in Halo Infinite. If the M57 isn’t in, honestly I wouldn’t miss it all that much. - Type-55 Storm Rifle: The Storm Rifle, while certainly fitting with the Covenant aesthetic, I find to be largely ignorable. It functions about as identical to the Type-25 Plasma Rifle, without the need to vent that the Type-51 Plasma Repeater (though I am very excited to see that function in Infinite), and the Type-55 does a good job at taking shields down.

But I never really found myself needing it.

Design-wise the Type-55 follows the Type-51, which was a continuation and evolution of the Type-25. It’s a progression that makes sense, and I wasn’t too distraught to see the Plasma Rifle change. For a military that was constantly innovating and was more technologically advanced, it was something interesting to see. I would have liked to see its function change, though. Perhaps, with the rotating coil and advanced cooling shroud, it could have had the function of firing longer without overheating with both the Plasma Rifle and Plasma Repeater. - CQS48 Bulldog: I’m not sure how to feel about the Bulldog just yet. Having an automatic shotgun - in contrast to the M45 and M90 - could be beneficial against Jiralhanae, but I’m not sure if I want it to replace the prior shotguns. Time will tell on this one, and if the M45 or M90 remain absent from Infinite. Design-wise, however, I do think the Bulldog looks like a UNSC gun, and functionally it should serve the same purpose. In terms of UNSC redesigns, I’m actually not too fond of the redesign of the MLRS-2 Hydra, and prefer the design of the MLRS-1.

> 2535441307847473;166:
> One point: While I do certainly appreciate new songs (117, Requiem and Arrival from Halo 4 are all breathtaking songs) I still think that it is very important for the Halo theme to make a prominent appearance in each mainline Halo game.

I do agree, and was equally disappointed to see this absent in Halo 3: ODST, Halo Reach, and Halo 4. It is the theme for the whole Franchise and I agree in thinking it should be present in all the games. I don’t think it should be exact to the “Mainline” (Chief-focused) games, but still present. Imagine what a jazz-themed Halo Theme would have sounded like? Or a more somber, hopeless rendition for Reach?

It was good to see the theme return in Halo 5 with ”Halo Canticles”, and it’s rendition in ”The Trials” is one of my personal favorites.

> 2535441307847473;166:
> I have to disagree again with this, I want the Brutes to go back to being super hairy, I think the Brutes were at their best in Halo 2 anniversary.

Yes, they were, and hair totally isn’t a problem. Honestly it helps Atriox look less like a gorilla/tumor-with-a-body. I mean, just look at Pavium and Voridus… shudder Halo 2 and Halo 3 followed roughly the same physiological form, and they look vaguely bear-like. I use Halo 3 as an example because the shape of their heads was a little more evident than Halo 2 Anniversary. But, I will say that I’m not entirely excited for their design in Halo Infinite. Even if more hair is added, they still look too ape-like for my taste, and in conflict with their as-of-yet-unchanged biological classification.

> 2535441307847473;167:
> I would simply amend the statement to “Halo has never been THIS ridiculous.”

I dunno. I’d say that flaming helmets (while cool), heart-themed and confetti armor effects, the Grunt Birthday Skull, the Grunts themselves and a few other things are equally ridiculous. Not saying they’re bad, just that there has been a long presence of ridiculousness in Halo that helps break the seriousness a little. Especially if it’s isolated to Multiplayer, it’s not that bad or serious of a thing, really.

> 2535441307847473;167:
> I’m curious however as to how exactly you think it is un-Spartan like? Emile is far from the only Spartan to modify his own armor in non-regulation ways, I mean even Jorge did and he’s in the same squad.

My point here specifically is less that Emile is “not a Spartan” because he marks his visor with every kill and made a skull graphic, but more that the criticisms of the Spartan-IV’s are poorly founded in comparison. (in hindsight I should have added quotation marks.) The biggest examples I’ve seen are Majestic flirting and joking around and Palmer’s use of “egg-heads” (I know, I know, let’s not even go into all that too deep). It seems to willfully ignore that the Spartan-IV’s come from regular (well, exceptional among regular) soldiers and ODST, and from personal experience that’s pretty much how soldiers act off-duty.

However when the rubber meets the road and it’s time to do the job, every Spartan-IV steps up to the line and does their job as Spartans. DeMarco even laid down his life for the job, willingly. Emile’s visor is ridiculous. So is Jorge’s supplemental armor that makes him more bulky and tank-like. However, they belong. They fit the characters, they have a reason within the canon, and they add diversity and unorthodoxy that the UNSC began to adopt in the later years of the war. While the canon is a little less founded and solid in regards to things like the Fotus armor (and even the Hayabusa armor), they have a place within Halo and the culture that’s been building since 2007.

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> 2535441307847473;167:
> Far more lithe is an exaggeration, they were only somewhat thinner, and all of those other changes are small and hard to notice without looking up close, the changes to the Halo 4 Elites were much more overt, which is what I was getting at since you originally claimed that Reach changed Elites “just as much” as Halo 4 did.

“Lithe” also in terms of how they move, and I still hold to it that the change from Halo Reach to Halo 4 was just as overt as the change from Halo 3 to Halo Reach.

In Halo 3, the Sangheili - while still being relatively quick - do somewhat lumber around. They use their weapons and wildly club at enemies, roaring and growling. They look compacted and heavy, their mandibles are relatively thick and frankly they looked like over-stuffed sausages. With the progression to Halo Reach, they were slimmed down a lot. Particularly in their legs. They move a lot quicker, leaping over obstacles rather than awkwardly clambering over them. Rather than clubbing with weapons (though they do throw punches), they are more prone to overhead kicks with their legs.

Now, particularly in Halo 5’s cutscenes, I do agree that Sangheili (typically aligned with Jul) do move in a more cumbersome manner. Skipping ahead in your quotes a bit, I don’t find this much more different than the depiction of Sangheili such as Ripa ‘Moramee. A Sangheili that “cared not for [Re’gish’s] little life” and was prone to physically assault Sangheili under his command. He was far from graceful, stomped around aggressively, and I could very easily see him saying much the same as the Sangheili Commander that suggested throwing the Unggoy out of the airlock. The Sangheili have, in great part, always treated the Unggoy with such casual disdain; remember Zuka ‘Zamamee?

More to the point, the Sangheili are a sentient species. There’s going to be a lot of diversity in their behaviors, mannerisms, and even differences in their physiology. This isn’t often easy to translate in a video game and would require a lot of resources, but I think it’s good to see the differences that we read about.

> 2535441307847473;167:
> my big problem with the scales is that its a retcon since Elites were always shown to have smooth/leathery skin,

They do still have the “leathery” skin, (about the same as what we could see in Halo 2) and it’s not really scales. Unless you’re meaning the ridges along their shoulders and brow, but I don’t think those are too extreme of an addition. Even Thel was given the same in Halo 2 Anniversary.

With the mandibles, there aren’t teeth anywhere near the eyes, and what teeth are towards the back end of the mandibles are more molar-like. I will grant you that it looks awkward, and I won’t miss it, but I don’t think it’s as huge a divorce from the design of the Sangheili as some are making it. No worse, really, than Ripa’s slack-jawed expression.

> 2535441307847473;167:
> Showcasing the Spartans shouldn’t be used as an excuse to make everything else look pathetic,

Thinking on this overnight, consider this:

The one instance that we really see regarding this is Jul’s assassination. Osiris’ descent down the cliffside is excusable in that there was a lot going on, and can be attributed to confusion. But with Jul’s assassination we see the Zealots behaving very… passively.

Jul wasn’t a warrior. He wasn’t great in any regard, really; he was a charlatan, and leading all the way up to his death we hear repeatedly how his troops are losing faith in him and breaking away. Reading Halo: Escalation we see more of this directly. Any great skill in combat, even against a human and especially against a Spartan, couldn’t be expected from Jul.

And his Zealots? Consider that they perhaps had lost faith in Jul as well. There only by oath. Perhaps they didn’t want to really defend him, but giving up or abandoning him would bring a great deal of dishonor and shame on their names and their Keep. Their honorable way out was to die in combat, and so they did. Making just enough of an effort that it wasn’t overtly “Suicide by Spartan,” but still resulted in their death and Jul’s.

Evidence that we have from glimpses into Sangheili culture such as that of The Cole Protocol support this mentality and performance, and perhaps give some excuse to “clumsy” Zealots.

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No. Gods, please no. I vastly prefer where it’s going now.

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> 2535441307847473;166:
> > The three big examples of this are of course the infamous Pilum rocket launcher, the storm rifle, and the new Bulldog shotgun.

Just throwing this in here but the bulldog isnt a replacement for the OG shotgun. They dont fit the same role. The OG shotgun was a tier 3 power weapon. The bulldog is a tier 2 weapon on par with the commando and BR. Its meant to be a weaker shotgun that lets players play a close quarter combat role without the need of waiting for a power weapon rotation. So, your point has merit but the bulldog is not a great example of it.

Anyway, carry on

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> 2533274840624875;175:
> > 2535441307847473;166:
> > > The three big examples of this are of course the infamous Pilum rocket launcher, the storm rifle, and the new Bulldog shotgun.
>
> Just throwing this in here but the bulldog isnt a replacement for the OG shotgun. They dont fit the same role. The OG shotgun was a tier 3 power weapon. The bulldog is a tier 2 weapon on par with the commando and BR. Its meant to be a weaker shotgun that lets players play a close quarter combat role without the need of waiting for a power weapon rotation. So, your point has merit but the bulldog is not a great example of it.
>
> Anyway, carry on

i dont know how people keep messing that up they even explained it in the ask343 that the bulldog wasnt the tac shotguns replacement.

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TheKiltdHeathen

  • > M57 Pilum

The truth is that I actually kind of like the look of the M57, in another game or in another role I would be happy to see it but its the replacement part that ticks me off. I too could see it playing the part of a specialized rocket launcher but I won’t be sad if that doesn’t happen.

> - Type-55 Storm Rifle: The Storm Rifle, while certainly fitting with the Covenant aesthetic, I find to be largely ignorable. - Design-wise the Type-55 follows the Type-51, which was a continuation and evolution of the Type-25.

Again I strongly disagree with the idea that it follows the Covenant aesthetic, the digital screen is very much a human design element, Covenant weapons have always used symbols or lines that gradually light up to indicate heat rather than screens. Also the Type 51 only has a stock because it actually produces recoil due to its use of solid projectiles rather than plasma projectiles like most Covenant weapons. Since the Storm rifle uses pure plasma, it definitely should not have a stock.

  • > CQS48 Bulldog: Design-wise, however, I do think the Bulldog looks like a UNSC gun, and functionally it should serve the same purpose.

It may look like a UNSC gun but it shouldn’t have replaced either of the older variants, rather it should have been a new one that served alongside them or have not been designed at all.

> I do agree, and was equally disappointed to see this absent in Halo 3: ODST, Halo Reach, and Halo 4. It is the theme for the whole Franchise and I agree in thinking it should be present in all the games. I don’t think it should be exact to the “Mainline” (Chief-focused) games, but still present. Imagine what a jazz-themed Halo Theme would have sounded like? Or a more somber, hopeless rendition for Reach?

I hold that the theme only needs to be prominent in the mainline games, it should still appear at some point in each game but I like that ODST and Reach have their own identities and I also think that the ODST menu music fits extremely well with the darker and much more depressing tone of ODST as a whole. ODST is honestly hard for me to play through because of how heavy the atmosphere is, which really speaks to how good the score is when you consider how WAY more people die both on and off screen in Halo Reach, Reach just didn’t make those deaths matter as much as ODST did, which is a shame because I actually like most of Noble team.

I think a jazz-themed Halo theme could be cool but I worry that it would have needed to be placed carefully to make sure the tone of ODST stayed consistent since a jazz version could come off as kind of funny. My problem with the idea of a somber theme for Reach is that Halo 2 already has a very somber theme (which is my favorite version, just thinking about the female harmonization gives me goosebumps) and I genuinely don’t believe that Halo 2’s theme can be outdone.

> Honestly it helps Atriox look less like a gorilla/tumor-with-a-body. I mean, just look at Pavium and Voridus… shudder

Thank you! I was worried that I was the only one who hated how they look, which is again a shame because I liked their dynamic in Awakening the Nightmare and I hope we can see them again as more than just some throw away bosses or something.

> I dunno. I’d say that flaming helmets (while cool), heart-themed and confetti armor effects, the Grunt Birthday Skull, the Grunts themselves and a few other things are equally ridiculous. Not saying they’re bad, just that there has been a long presence of ridiculousness in Halo that helps break the seriousness a little. Especially if it’s isolated to Multiplayer, it’s not that bad or serious of a thing, really.

See but again those armor effects were never canonical, unlike the FOTUS which at least partially is, which in my opinion makes it more ridiculous since we are supposed to believe that actual Spartans have worn them in universe. Aside from that its hard to debate personal beliefs about how ridiculous something is though.

> My point here specifically is less that Emile is “not a Spartan” because he marks his visor with every kill and made a skull graphic, but more that the criticisms of the Spartan-IV’s are poorly founded in comparison. (in hindsight I should have added quotation marks.) The biggest examples I’ve seen are Majestic flirting and joking around and Palmer’s use of “egg-heads” (I know, I know, let’s not even go into all that too deep). It seems to willfully ignore that the Spartan-IV’s come from regular (well, exceptional among regular) soldiers and ODST, and from personal experience that’s pretty much how soldiers act off-duty.

Some of those behaviors you mentioned sometimes happened on-duty as well which is what really annoys me. The other issue with the Spartan IVs is that the franchise made us very accustomed to much more grim and stoic Spartans who all had tragic backstories, and I personally think that it should have stayed that way.

> While the canon is a little less founded and solid in regards to things like the Fotus armor (and even the Hayabusa armor), they have a place within Halo and the culture that’s been building since 2007.

In regards to this I guess I’ll just say that its difficult to reconcile my feelings towards the more silly looking cosmetic designs because I think their presence detracts from what was for me at least a very grim and desperate universe for humanity especially. I understand that they only appear in multiplayer, but I guess I just miss how serious Reach took things, even in multiplayer. Reach was admittedly a much more dark and gritty game than the others, but, in case you couldn’t tell from my comment about my love for Halo 2’s theme, my favorite elements of Halo come from those darker aspects.

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TheKiltdHeathen

> In Halo 3, the Sangheili - while still being relatively quick - do somewhat lumber around. They use their weapons and wildly club at enemies, roaring and growling. They look compacted and heavy, their mandibles are relatively thick and frankly they looked like over-stuffed sausages. With the progression to Halo Reach, they were slimmed down a lot. Particularly in their legs. They move a lot quicker, leaping over obstacles rather than awkwardly clambering over them. Rather than clubbing with weapons (though they do throw punches), they are more prone to overhead kicks with their legs.

While I don’t have any interviews to back this up, my guess is that the increased speed of the Halo Reach Elites was meant to counteract the rather easy to stun lock with melee Halo 2 Elites. It could also be the case that the developers preferred an enemy who had fast and farther reaching melee attacks that did good but not lethal damage to the slower and more telegraphed Halo 2 Elite melee attacks, which, while easier to dodge, would one shot you because Halo 2 Elites are absolute legends.

> Now, particularly in Halo 5’s cutscenes, I do agree that Sangheili (typically aligned with Jul) do move in a more cumbersome manner. Skipping ahead in your quotes a bit, I don’t find this much more different than the depiction of Sangheili such as Ripa ‘Moramee.

See but the thing about Ripa 'Moramee is that he was as Sergeant Forge put it a “massive Elite,” being significantly bulkier than an average Elite, this in my opinion explains his slower movements.

> A Sangheili that “cared not for [Re’gish’s] little life” and was prone to physically assault Sangheili under his command. He was far from graceful, stomped around aggressively, and I could very easily see him saying much the same as the Sangheili Commander that suggested throwing the Unggoy out of the airlock.

Which I think was fitting for him because even without delving into the books, Halo Wars implied that he had a very violent and troubled past.

> The Sangheili have, in great part, always treated the Unggoy with such casual disdain; remember Zuka ‘Zamamee?

No actually, I just read about him though.

> More to the point, the Sangheili are a sentient species. There’s going to be a lot of diversity in their behaviors, mannerisms, and even differences in their physiology. This isn’t often easy to translate in a video game and would require a lot of resources, but I think it’s good to see the differences that we read about.

I don’t think that’s good at all and I’ll say more on that in a bit.

> They do still have the “leathery” skin, (about the same as what we could see in Halo 2) and it’s not really scales. Unless you’re meaning the ridges along their shoulders and brow, but I don’t think those are too extreme of an addition. Even Thel was given the same in Halo 2 Anniversary.

Its not just the shoulders and brow, the scales (they look way more likes scales than ridges) are also on their forearms and hands like you can see here:https://i.pinimg.com/originals/cd/22/74/cd22743e3eed519ca7be725b2cfc5dab.jpg
(How do you link images like you did in your post? I’m not that good at this forum stuff)

Looking at Thel’s forearms you can clearly see that they lack the “scales” of the Halo 4/5 Elites.

> Jul wasn’t a warrior. He wasn’t great in any regard, really;

One has to wonder then how he managed to attain the rank of Shipmaster even before the Great Schism, such a rank doesn’t get bestowed upon average Elites.

> and leading all the way up to his death we hear repeatedly how his troops are losing faith in him and breaking away. Reading Halo: Escalation we see more of this directly. Any great skill in combat, even against a human and especially against a Spartan, couldn’t be expected from Jul.
>
> And his Zealots? Consider that they perhaps had lost faith in Jul as well. There only by oath. Perhaps they didn’t want to really defend him, but giving up or abandoning him would bring a great deal of dishonor and shame on their names and their Keep. Their honorable way out was to die in combat, and so they did. Making just enough of an effort that it wasn’t overtly “Suicide by Spartan,” but still resulted in their death and Jul’s.
>
> Evidence that we have from glimpses into Sangheili culture such as that of The Cole Protocol support this mentality and performance, and perhaps give some excuse to “clumsy” Zealots.

Coming back to my statement earlier about how its not good to see so many things from the books, the problem is that a very large number (or probably the majority) of Halo fans have not read the books, certainly not all of the books, and thus they cannot be expected to understand these kinds of things in Halo 4 and 5 given that they rely so much on information from the books.

This is a weakness that 343 has consistently imposed upon themselves, they inject so many things from the books into their games in an attempt to make them more deep and interesting, but what they really end of doing is making their games way more confusing and in many ways downright impossible for the average Halo fan to fully understand. You see one of the reasons why people love the classic games so much is because they are all so intuitive and approachable, you don’t need to do any homework to understand what happens in Halo 3 for example, all you need to do is play Halo 1 and 2, with Halo 4 and 5 though, simply playing the original trilogy will not give you a sufficient explanation to understand them. And its not as if the classic games didn’t have any mysteries or things that were expanded upon in the books, its just that those things were not so integral to the plot, and they certainly weren’t ever needed to explain the outcome of a boss fight, you know, its not as if you needed to read Tartarus’ backstory to understand his downfall, that was all shown in Halo 2.

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> 2533274852319616;4:
> This post has been edited by a moderator. Please do not flame or attack other members.*Original post. Click at your own discretion. Are you like 12 years old? Also lol halo 5. Infinite is a solid Halo game

Halo 5 is probably my least favorite out of the series.

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No
Art style now good