Visual "Clutter" is a bad argument

Hi everyone, I recently discovered that Josh Holmes (Creative Director) responded to a user saying this:

"This is a constant challenge with heightened visual fidelity. What you see as “clutter,” someone else sees as “detail” - the goal (and challenge) is to deliver a more detailed physical environment that maximizes the capabilities of the Xbox One while retaining clarity of image and the ability to follow the action. Your point is well taken though and this is something we are always working to balance."

I agree with josh, what people see as clutter, other people see as detail and beautiful art.

The argument that graphics should be lowered to prevent clutter is silly.

Halo is moving from 360 to Xbox One. We should be excited! Remember the graphical difference between Halo 2 and Halo 3? I know I sure do. Sitting on the couch with my brother and sister (gamer family ftw!) watching commercials of Halo 3 on television back in the day was insane! We should be expecting a big jump between Halo 4 and Halo 5 due to the new graphical possibilities on the new hardware!

Sadly there are some people who don’t want Halo 5 to have good graphics, and this is the reason; They feel making Halo 5’s graphics too good it will create visual clutter and make the game harder to play.

“Oooh the game is too beautiful, I’m too busy looking at the detailed graphics, I can’t focus on the fight! The graphics are too good now I can’t win in multiplayer!”

It makes me sad that the developers even read those comments. People have come to the point where they blame graphics being too good as a reason for why multiplayer is difficult?! I’m bad at multiplayer, but I don’t blame it on the graphics or anything else. If I’m bad at multiplayer it means I just need to keep working hard at it. Graphics don’t make multiplayer worse, they make it better because when the map looks prettier its more immersive and more fun to play in. The game is already going to be 60fps (I think I heard this from somewhere), so graphics won’t affect the multiplayer negatively.

343 Industries please ignore people complaining about visual “clutter”. Don’t let these complainers ruin Halo 5’s graphical potential.

> 2535444539078749;1:
> Hi everyone, I recently discovered that Josh Holmes (Creative Director) responded to a user saying this:
>
> "This is a constant challenge with heightened visual fidelity. What you see as “clutter,” someone else sees as “detail” - the goal (and challenge) is to deliver a more detailed physical environment that maximizes the capabilities of the Xbox One while retaining clarity of image and the ability to follow the action. Your point is well taken though and this is something we are always working to balance."
>
> The argument that graphics should be lowered to prevent clutter is silly.
>
> Halo is moving from 360 to Xbox One. We should be excited! Remember the graphical difference between Halo 2 and Halo 3? I know I sure do. Sitting on the couch with my brother and sister (gamer family ftw!) watching commercials of Halo 3 on television back in the day was insane! We should be expecting a big jump between Halo 4 and Halo 5 due to the new graphical possibilities on the new hardware!
>
> Sadly there are some people who don’t want Halo 5 to have good graphics, and this is the reason; They feel making Halo 5’s graphics too good it will create visual clutter and make the game harder to play.
>
> “Oooh the game is too beautiful, I’m too busy looking at the detailed graphics, I can’t focus on the fight! The graphics are too good now I can’t win in multiplayer!”
>
> It makes me sad that the developers even read those comments. People have come to the point where they blame graphics being too good as a reason for why multiplayer is difficult?! I’m bad at multiplayer, but I don’t blame it on the graphics or anything else. If I’m bad at multiplayer it means I just need to keep working hard at it. Graphics don’t make multiplayer worse, they make it better because when the map looks prettier its more immersive and more fun to play in. The game is already going to be 60fps (I think I heard this from somewhere), so graphics won’t affect the multiplayer negatively.
>
> 343 Industries please ignore people complaining about visual “clutter”. Don’t let these complainers ruin Halo 5’s graphical potential.

Didnt think people thought that better graphics is a bad thing. I guess they haven’t been on Ubisoft forums… Yeesh, that’s all those guys care about.

As long as the game plays nice and has longevity I dont care.

<mark>This post has been edited by a moderator. Please refrain from making non-constructive posts.</mark>

*Original post. Click at your own discretion.

> 2535444539078749;1:
> Sadly there are some people who don’t want Halo 5 to have good graphics, and this is the reason; They feel making Halo 5’s graphics too good it will create visual clutter and make the game harder to play.
>
> “Oooh the game is too beautiful, I’m too busy looking at the detailed graphics, I can’t focus on the fight! The graphics are too good now I can’t win in multiplayer!”

5 steps to a great Waypoint-post:

  1. find an interesting Dev comment/topic
  2. pretend to read the conversation
  3. don’t understand any of it
  4. go to waypoint
  5. creat a radom post, -Yoinking!- about other peoples oppinions, that you didn’t even understand

momy must be proud

As you might have read out of the post, even Holmes is aware, that a developer has to be carefull what to put on the screen…
No one wants H5G to have bad graphics, its more about the graphic/art style rather then the actual quality!

It’s very much a good argument.

You must get into the habit of fully grasping what people say, (or meant to say) because lowering graphics and lowering visual clutter are two very different things, and I doubt they meant to imply the opposite.

In that sense, I haven’t seen the argument that Halo 5’s graphics should decrease.

Josh said they’re trying to balance the two. Just to be clear, that means he DOES acknowledge visual clutter as a hurdle that needs to be overcome, and yes, we can confirm from that post that Halo 5 is constantly being worked on to reduce visual clutter and increase clarity, but it is still very possible to maximize the Xbox One’s graphical capabilities while doing so… Again, making good graphics and making visual clutter are not the same thing.

Too much detail sacrifices clarity, and it’s good to know that developers have acknowledged this. It’s going to be VERY important this generation. We can create truly amazing graphics nowadays, but they are useless without clarity.

It’s actually a very good argument. Pretty easily to add too much to the screen and completely distract from the actual playing of the game.

> 2535460843083983;4:
> It’s very much a good argument.
>
> You must get into the habit of fully grasping what people say, (or meant to say) because lowering graphics and lowering visual clutter are two very different things, and I doubt they meant to imply the opposite.
>
> In that sense, I haven’t seen the argument that Halo 5’s graphics should decrease.
>
> Josh said they’re trying to balance the two. Just to be clear, that means he DOES acknowledge visual clutter as a hurdle that needs to be overcome, and yes, we can confirm from that post that Halo 5 is constantly being worked on to reduce visual clutter and increase clarity, but it is still very possible to maximize the Xbox One’s graphical capabilities while doing so… Again, making good graphics and making visual clutter are not the same thing.
>
> Too much detail sacrifices clarity, and it’s good to know that developers have acknowledged this. It’s going to be VERY important this generation. We can create truly amazing graphics nowadays, but they are useless without clarity.

This. Nobody is asking for decreased visual fidelity. 343 had an insane amount of “clutter” on the maps in Halo 4. This clutter presented itself in several forms, including but not limited to; boxes, crates, vehicles, shrubbery, trees, hills, random architecture that made no sense, etc. The issue at hand isn’t that the stuff on the walls is pretty, but rather the stuff in between is too much. There were too many instances in the Halo 4 maps where lines of sight were broken in places that just didn’t make sense and where clutter actually got in the way of gameplay. This is why Haven was so popular, whether or not people consciously knew why they preferred to play on that map. It was clutter free, and the architecture and design of the map itself (rather than trees, crates, etc.) directed the flow of traffic in a smooth, fun way.

I was pleased with the maps in the beta in the sense that they weren’t over-cluttered or complicated for art’s sake. The only map that had a tremendous amount of clutter was Crossfire, and that’s because it featured the mode “Breakout” where nobody had shields and long lines of sight would be dumb.

This argument of decluttering the maps also of necessity brings up the debate of starting with BR/DMR vs assault rifle. With long range default weapons, the maps necessarily must have more clutter to break up lines of sight, otherwise matches become a camping and spawn killing fest.

Clutter on the map, ESPECIALLY in Halo, is bad because people can get away very easily. In a game with sprint, thrusters, and a slow kill time (kill time compared to CoD/Destiny kill times), adding a lot of clutter or visual details as Josh said it to the map can really affect the gameplay in a major way (badly b/c people are getting away all the time).

> 2533274805497312;5:
> It’s actually a very good argument. Pretty easily to add too much to the screen and completely distract from the actual playing of the game.

I strongly disagree. Developers shouldn’t refrain from detailing the games graphics and visuals just because a few players don’t want to be distracted by them.

Most players would view them as beauty rather than distraction “look at all that detail in the water, this is truly next gen!” opposed too clutter “I’m too busy looking at the detail in the water! now someone is going to shoot me and I’ll loose!”.

> 2533274801973487;3:
> > 2535444539078749;1:
> > Sadly there are some people who don’t want Halo 5 to have good graphics, and this is the reason; They feel making Halo 5’s graphics too good it will create visual clutter and make the game harder to play.
> >
> > “Oooh the game is too beautiful, I’m too busy looking at the detailed graphics, I can’t focus on the fight! The graphics are too good now I can’t win in multiplayer!”
>
>
> 5 steps to a great Waypoint-post:
> 1) find an interesting Dev comment/topic
> 2) pretend to read the conversation
> 3) don’t understand any of it
> 4) go to waypoint
> 5) creat a radom post, -Yoinking!- about other peoples oppinions, that you didn’t even understand
>
> momy must be proud
>
> As you might have read out of the post, even Holmes is aware, that a developer has to be carefull what to put on the screen…
> No one wants H5G to have bad graphics, its more about the graphic/art style rather then the actual quality!.

**That breaks the forum rules of this site.**Please don’t insult me personally or call me out on “-yoinking-”. That is going to start a flame war. Argue against my argument, that is okay. Do not argue against me as a person, that is not okay.
That is not very nice :frowning:

> 2533274892061674;6:
> > 2535460843083983;4:
> > It’s very much a good argument.
> >
> > You must get into the habit of fully grasping what people say, (or meant to say) because lowering graphics and lowering visual clutter are two very different things, and I doubt they meant to imply the opposite.
> >
> > In that sense, I haven’t seen the argument that Halo 5’s graphics should decrease.
> >
> > Josh said they’re trying to balance the two. Just to be clear, that means he DOES acknowledge visual clutter as a hurdle that needs to be overcome, and yes, we can confirm from that post that Halo 5 is constantly being worked on to reduce visual clutter and increase clarity, but it is still very possible to maximize the Xbox One’s graphical capabilities while doing so… Again, making good graphics and making visual clutter are not the same thing.
> >
> > Too much detail sacrifices clarity, and it’s good to know that developers have acknowledged this. It’s going to be VERY important this generation. We can create truly amazing graphics nowadays, but they are useless without clarity.
>
>
> This. Nobody is asking for decreased visual fidelity. 343 had an insane amount of “clutter” on the maps in Halo 4. This clutter presented itself in several forms, including but not limited to; boxes, crates, vehicles, shrubbery, trees, hills, random architecture that made no sense, etc. The issue at hand isn’t that the stuff on the walls is pretty, but rather the stuff in between is too much. There were too many instances in the Halo 4 maps where lines of sight were broken in places that just didn’t make sense and where clutter actually got in the way of gameplay. This is why Haven was so popular, whether or not people consciously knew why they preferred to play on that map. It was clutter free, and the architecture and design of the map itself (rather than trees, crates, etc.) directed the flow of traffic in a smooth, fun way.
>
> I was pleased with the maps in the beta in the sense that they weren’t over-cluttered or complicated for art’s sake. The only map that had a tremendous amount of clutter was Crossfire, and that’s because it featured the mode “Breakout” where nobody had shields and long lines of sight would be dumb.
>
> This argument of decluttering the maps also of necessity brings up the debate of starting with BR/DMR vs assault rifle. With long range default weapons, the maps necessarily must have more clutter to break up lines of sight, otherwise matches become a camping and spawn killing fest.

I MIGHT have misunderstood what people meant by visual clutter.

By “clutter” I thought people were talking about things like “the lighting is too pretty its distracting”, “the stream of water is too reflective and too detailed it distracts me from playing” or "the rock’s texture is too detailed it distracts me"… complaints like those are dumb. But if you are saying people complaining about clutter are saying things like “there are too many trees that it BLOCKS my sight lines and I can’t shoot people” then I understand.

If its things like “there are too many trees it blocks my sight lines and I can’t shoot people” opposed to “the rock’s texture is too detailed it distracts me” then yes, I agree.

I thought that when people were complaining about clutter they meant “the rock’s texture is too detailed it distracts me”.

Im with you on that. I love seeing visual improvements in the games as they come out. However, that isn’t what defines the game. Its the game mechanics and how you play it that really concerns me when it comes to games. I still play the original mario bros to this day, and those arent exactly top notch graphics. The game is still fun though.

> 2533274809100878;11:
> Im with you on that. I love seeing visual improvements in the games as they come out. However, that isn’t what defines the game. Its the game mechanics and how you play it that really concerns me when it comes to games. I still play the original mario bros to this day, and those arent exactly top notch graphics. The game is still fun though.

Sacrificing graphics is fine so long as its done for a good reason. I just don’t think that the graphics being “too distracting” as the visual clutter complainers say is a good reason. Especially if the developers have the capabilities with the hardware, and the only thing stopping them is fans complaing “too distracting”

You can have phenomenal graphics without the light show mess that was the Halo 5 beta. Go on Halo 3 MCC and load up Guardian. Then load up any Halo 4 map of your choosing. There’s a reason why Halo 3 looks better than Halo 4, it’s the art style. Bungie had a really good knack for this (as seen in Destiny) and it’s something 343 can’t really get their hands on. The H5 beta was just crazy lens flares and busy textures with no sense of direction or identity. Ask a stranger on the street what game you’re playing (H5) and they’d have no idea. Show someone a Halo game from the original trilogy and it’s much more recognizable for that exact reason.

You’re acting as if people are complaining about resolution and polygon counts, they aren’t. Most complaints on visual clutter is about unnatural lighting, textures, and colors. I’m indifferent on this argument, but like someone already said don’t post about this unless you understand the argument.

It’s art, and everyone has different tastes. I’m more of a minimalist kind of guy, so I appreciate designs which aren’t overly complex and instead simple. So I’m not overly keen on halo 5’s Covenant aesthetic.

But that’s just me. There’s no right way to do art, you never will (Or should) satisfy everyone. just do what you’re good at and all that.

I don’t mind the detail, I just want the color pallet to let things pop out instead of the brown and grey look.

If you really think amazing graphics are more important than gameplay, you are one of the problems. Honestly I trust 343 to get it right on both sides, great graphics but not too distracting when trying to scope.

If I had to choose, I would choose decent graphics + great gameplay over great graphics + decent gameplay.

You’re one of those people that is casual and will be gone a month or so after release.

I presume you have no visualization of what you really want.

It is simple principle of design that is not limited to simply video games. You add so much detail everywhere, your eyes have no where to focus on and start bleeding, ultimately making everything too overwhelming and ugly despite efforts to make everything super detailed.

Unless of course I have missed the point entirely.

I’m pro art and clutter. I would like to see more details on everything in the future halo games. I think their doing a good job thus far. Some of the maps in halo 4 and halo 2 anniversary look really good if you stop to notice. Oh and I would like to see good game play and game mechanics. Can’t have one without he other, well I suppose we could, but I doubt that would end well.

Idk, now that I think about it, many people want a re skinned halo 2 or 3 with improved graphics. A game might sell well if it had old halo feel and sub par or even dated graphics. Please don’t use halo mcc as a counter argument to this…

<mark>This post has been edited by a moderator. Please do not flame or attack other members.</mark>

*Original post. Click at your own discretion.

> 2535444539078749;1:
> Hi everyone, I recently discovered that Josh Holmes (Creative Director) responded to a user saying this:
>
> "This is a constant challenge with heightened visual fidelity. What you see as “clutter,” someone else sees as “detail” - the goal (and challenge) is to deliver a more detailed physical environment that maximizes the capabilities of the Xbox One while retaining clarity of image and the ability to follow the action. Your point is well taken though and this is something we are always working to balance."
>
> I agree with josh, what people see as clutter, other people see as detail and beautiful art.
>
> The argument that graphics should be lowered to prevent clutter is silly.
>
> Halo is moving from 360 to Xbox One. We should be excited! Remember the graphical difference between Halo 2 and Halo 3? I know I sure do. Sitting on the couch with my brother and sister (gamer family ftw!) watching commercials of Halo 3 on television back in the day was insane! We should be expecting a big jump between Halo 4 and Halo 5 due to the new graphical possibilities on the new hardware!
>
> Sadly there are some people who don’t want Halo 5 to have good graphics, and this is the reason; They feel making Halo 5’s graphics too good it will create visual clutter and make the game harder to play.
>
> “Oooh the game is too beautiful, I’m too busy looking at the detailed graphics, I can’t focus on the fight! The graphics are too good now I can’t win in multiplayer!”
>
> It makes me sad that the developers even read those comments. People have come to the point where they blame graphics being too good as a reason for why multiplayer is difficult?! I’m bad at multiplayer, but I don’t blame it on the graphics or anything else. If I’m bad at multiplayer it means I just need to keep working hard at it. Graphics don’t make multiplayer worse, they make it better because when the map looks prettier its more immersive and more fun to play in. The game is already going to be 60fps (I think I heard this from somewhere), so graphics won’t affect the multiplayer negatively.
>
> 343 Industries please ignore people complaining about visual “clutter”. Don’t let these complainers ruin Halo 5’s graphical potential.

Absolutely agreed, I never knew/never thought could exist people like those of you said, they are absolute freaking idiots…