Versus: Sangheili vs Krogan

So given how the last debate had involved a 9 foot tall Gorrilla with a 7 to 8 foot tall Reptile (which was a stomp in either direction, depending whether or not Biotics were in play), I thought it would be a bit more fair to pit a 7 to 8 foot reptile with a 7 to 8 foot reptile (sorta).

Round 1: Close Quarters Combat.
Fight takes place in a boxing ring. Both sides get armour, but no shields.

Round 2: Firefight.
The Elite is armed with a Covenant Carbine, Plasma Rifle and Energy Sword.
The Krogan is armed with a Claymore Shotgun, M-8 Avenger Assault Rifle and Executioner Pistol.
Fight takes place in Uplift Reserve, Halo 3: ODST. 50m apart.

No biotics.
Who wins?

edit: both sides get shielding and armour functions in Round 2.

Assuming they don’t have shields in the second fight, the Elite wins due to the Carbine. If he can get at least a body shot in that pierces skin, the Krogan is as good as dead within a minute or so due to the radiation poisoning from the round. The first fight however, that’s a bit tough. Both are very durable and stubborn fighters, who will fight to the death no matter what. Both are also immensely strong and their reflexes are quite sharp. But, that’s the determining factor. Due to the Sangheili’s height and more slim build, while retaining the same strength and power as the Krogan, I’d say the Sangheili wins both ways only due to more agility and perhaps slightly better reflexes, and less mass to shoot at or target. But, if the Krogan can get a nice head butt in first in the first fight, it’s got the upper hand.

Assuming they both have shields in Round 2, the chances are more even. The Kinetic Barriers will effectively hold their own for awhile against the Carbine, but they will fall rapidly against or even ignore the Plasma rounds. The Elite’s shields will hold their own against all the Krogan’s weapons, and will fall when taken enough damage. If the Elite can sneak up on the Krogan, he can use the Sword and bypass the Kinetic barriers. But if he fails, the Krogan has got him with the shotgun. Shields or not, the Elite won’t survive that shot.

This is based on the Krogan being a Battlemaster and the Sangheili being a Zealot or Field Commander, and overall, I would say the Sangheili purely due to reflexes, but it’s a pretty even fight

> 2533274919463107;2:
> Assuming they don’t have shields in the second fight, the Elite wins due to the Carbine. If he can get at least a body shot in that pierces skin, the Krogan is as good as dead within a minute or so due to the radiation poisoning from the round. The first fight however, that’s a bit tough. Both are very durable and stubborn fighters, who will fight to the death no matter what. Both are also immensely strong and their reflexes are quite sharp. But, that’s the determining factor. Due to the Sangheili’s height and more slim build, while retaining the same strength and power as the Krogan, I’d say the Sangheili wins both ways only due to more agility and perhaps slightly better reflexes, and less mass to shoot at or target. But, if the Krogan can get a nice head butt in first in the first fight, it’s got the upper hand.
>
> Assuming they both have shields in Round 2, the chances are more even. The Kinetic Barriers will effectively hold their own for awhile against the Carbine, but they will fall rapidly against or even ignore the Plasma rounds. The Elite’s shields will hold their own against all the Krogan’s weapons, and will fall when taken enough damage. If the Elite can sneak up on the Krogan, he can use the Sword and bypass the Kinetic barriers. But if he fails, the Krogan has got him with the shotgun. Shields or not, the Elite won’t survive that shot.
>
> This is based on the Krogan being a Battlemaster and the Sangheili being a Zealot or Field Commander, and overall, I would say the Sangheili purely due to reflexes, but it’s a pretty even fight

I’ve edited the OP to include shields and other armour functions (such as Active Camo) in round 2.

One thing to note in round one however is that the Krogan are well known for being quite durable, with Krogans being noted to “regen” and possess redundant organs that make them rather difficult to kill. The Krogan would overall win in a close quarters fight due to resilience and their redundant organs which may help with (and replace) the function of damaged and/or destroyed primary organs.

Also, in the lore, the Krogan are roughly around the same height as the Sangheili on average (Grunt appears to be 7 foot 2, while Skarr was mentioned to be 8 feet tall. Same with a Krogan Bouncer in one of the ME novels). The ME games aren’t exactly reliable when referencing size given that characters do change heights at several points, even within the same cutscene (Wrex vs Shepard in ME3 for example).

In regards to the Krogan’s weaponry, the Krogan is armed with a Claymore shotgun, which can shatter a regular human’s armed upon firing the weapon and is even said to be a vehicle killer, IIRC. However, despite the weapon being quite devastating, it only possess a single round before its thermal clip overheats, so any misses will give the Sangheili an advantage.

A Krogan Battlemaster is a biotic, just so you know, which I have previously mentioned in the OP that they are excluded in this debate. Maybe a Krogan Warlord is something you are referring to.

> 2533274926227685;3:
> > 2533274919463107;2:
> >
>
>
> I’ve edited the OP to include shields and other armour functions (such as Active Camo) in round 2.
>
> One thing to note in round one however is that the Krogan are well known for being quite durable, with Krogans being noted to “regen” and possess redundant organs that make them rather difficult to kill. The Krogan would overall win in a close quarters fight due to resilience and their redundant organs which may help with (and replace) the function of damaged and/or destroyed primary organs.
>
> Also, in the lore, the Krogan are roughly around the same height as the Sangheili on average (Grunt appears to be 7 foot 2, while Skarr was mentioned to be 8 feet tall. Same with a Krogan Bouncer in one of the ME novels). The ME games aren’t exactly reliable when referencing size given that characters do change heights at several points, even within the same cutscene (Wrex vs Shepard in ME3 for example).
>
> In regards to the Krogan’s weaponry, the Krogan is armed with a Claymore shotgun, which can shatter a regular human’s armed upon firing the weapon and is even said to be a vehicle killer, IIRC. However, despite the weapon being quite devastating, it only possess a single round before its thermal clip overheats, so any misses will give the Sangheili an advantage.
>
> A Krogan Battlemaster is a biotic, just so you know, which I have previously mentioned in the OP that they are excluded in this debate. Maybe a Krogan Warlord is something you are referring to.

Yeah I am not the best when it comes to in depth Mass Effect lore, but I appreciate the corrections! After reviewing what you have said, the Krogan would probably win Round 1, but I still side with what I said for Round 2.

Definitely the Elite (Sangheili) mainly because I don’t know that much about the Krogan or any lore about the Krogan

Mass Effect weaponary is far superior then all but the Promethean weapons in the Halo universe. The Krogan vs brute was more fair in my opinion. Im not sure its entirely fair to give the elite an energy sword without giving the Krogan a significantly equal weapon, like the omni-blade.
I also think that to make a completely fair gladiatoral type match they should get same armor, tech and weapons. Like both getting just a plasma pistol.

Elite for both. Far faster (can’t think of any examples of a baseline Human beating an Elite in a one on one slap down knock out fight, yet Humans do it quite a lot to Krogan), far stronger, better reach, more versatile shielding (protects against more than kinetic) and all of its weapons will pretty much ignore the kinetic barriers and easily boil away the armour below.

> 2533274850718648;6:
> Mass Effect weaponary is far superior then all but the Promethean weapons in the Halo universe. The Krogan vs brute was more fair in my opinion. Im not sure its entirely fair to give the elite an energy sword without giving the Krogan a significantly equal weapon, like the omni-blade.
> I also think that to make a completely fair gladiatoral type match they should get same armor, tech and weapons. Like both getting just a plasma pistol.

I wouldn’t say that was more of a Fair fight (in regards to the Brute vs Krogan fight). If we discount biotics, the Brute is (arguably) more durable (with incredibly powerful shielding/armour, going by Contact Harvest and Halo: Initiation), has far greater reach and is much larger and stronger. The Krogan are roughly Elite size in both height and weight. The Brute is physically superior to both.

Hence why I see this as a much more fair fight. For a sense of scale, a Krogan/Elite can carry humans and throw them around. A Brute can throw around Spartans (going by the Halo Wars 2 trailer we can see a Brute kicking around Spartans whose Mark IV armour which weighs 907 kilograms). A Krogan is also around an Elite’s height, 7 to 8 foot range. Brutes are taller than that, going into the 9 foot range.

If we account for biotics however, well it’s a charging Brute (typically) armed with only a hammer would go well against a guy who can through around vehicles with his mind. So it’s a stomp either way.

Anyway, that’s getting off topic so let’s get back onto the debate at hand. If you want to continue on this further, make another Brute vs Krogan Thread (not a Battlemaster or Biotic this time) and set up some conditions for the fight.

One thing to note about the Claymore Shotgun (which is the weapon the Krogan would utilised the most, if not reliant on it) is that the Claymore can only fire a single shot before it overheats and the Krogan would need to reload another thermal clip before he can fire that weapon, meaning he would need to switch to the avenger or pistol, giving the Elite ample time to counter the Krogan.

Do note that I am leaning towards the Krogan here, and given that Elite shields can fall to 7.42 NATO rounds while ME weaponry are mass accelerators.

I really want the Sangheili to win, but I feel like the Krogan would.

I am presuming this is a fully-grown, adult krogan, correct Drof?

> 2533274889125491;10:
> I am presuming this is a fully-grown, adult krogan, correct Drof?

Of course Operator. Why wouldn’t it be?

I never played Mass Efect, but the game wikia made me believe that the krogan win round 1 and 2.

> 2533274926227685;11:
> > 2533274889125491;10:
> > I am presuming this is a fully-grown, adult krogan, correct Drof?
>
>
> Of course Operator. Why wouldn’t it be?

Oh, come on Drof, you know better than this. :stuck_out_tongue:

Its a win in the Krogan’s favor then. The durability of a krogan’s armor matches, if not already bests, a brute chieftain’s armor. Meanwhile, its canon that the sangheili’s armor is purposely designed to be crap (one of the books had an elite discussing with a prophet the difference between produced armors, human to elite. He notes human armor was superior to that which comes from the High Charity Assembly lines). Meanwhile, Urdnot Wrex had a bandoleer full of grenades explode on him, after being shot by a sniper. The only effect was a pissed-off krogan with a small hole in his armor. Other examples of Mass Effect’s armor durability include things like atmospheric entry (Mass Effect 2 Prologue).

Referring back to the strength analysis by Rama:

> 1) Wrex manages to lift and toss a roughly 90 kilo man into air, ten meters vertically, using him to bowl over a group of other humanoids. Assuming the force exerted upon the lift is equal in part to the work required to launch a one kilo ball ten meters into the air, then a Krogan would require a hundred times the lifting work capacity of the average human to accomplish such a feat. In fact compared to peak NFL athletes (as in the top 10%) a Krogan would be over twenty times stronger - at a minimum. Although the same muscles groups don’t necessarily translate into directly comparable levels of work (Wrex was tossing the weight along the weakest axis of any biped, the rotational cuff and bicep), the power required for such a feat would be equatable to a 2 ton bench press.
>
> 2) A “newborn” Krogan manages to heft a section of sheet metal with a volume of roughly 450,000 cm^3 (I don’t know how he calculated that number, but that sheet of metal had was larger then the krogan newborn (5:05)) with both arms extended from the pectorals, assuming it was lightweight aluminium the sheet would still weigh in at a whopping 1.2 tons; even a lightweight space age metal such as titanium would place the block at 2.25 metric tons.
>
> 3) 200 kilo plus Krogan are stated to be capable of easily outrunning genetically augmented Alliance Marines on foot and any human in general (the only reason this is noted is due to the fact that Greyson is heavily augmented to the point of appearing as a blur to his pursuers), while this doesn’t seem too noteworthy, the capacity for any large animal to accelerate itself to a running speed comparable to that of lighter, leaner animals does dictate an incredible degree of muscular strength. A Krogan would have to generate nearly three times the work in his leg muscles to match the average human, let alone (genetically augmented and conditioned) Alliance soldiers.
>
> 4) Krogan are capable of using stubby shotguns that are stated to break human bones when fired. The fact that the gun doesn’t spin right out of their hand the instant they fires it, makes them far stronger than any human. An AT High Impulse Weapon System (HIWS) doesn’t do that even when fired from a braced position, and that’s nearly 300 kg-m/s, which while capable of knocking back improperly mounted weapon systems doesn’t shatter bone. To reliably wield a weapon that can shatter human bones requires incredibly superhuman musculature.
>
> Although in my opinion this fight comes down to resilience, not strength. And as I’ve already outlined, unfortunately for the Sangheili Krogan are by and large ludicrously resilient. They’re covered in thick bullet resistant plates, have numerous redundant organs and their unique nervous system is seemingly immune to shock and paralysis. Wrex for example was caught out in a fuel air blast that would have scorched clean the lungs of a human and subsequently shot in the gut by a sniper rifle (which I have already posted above), the assailant later noting that he merely intended to slow down Wrex, not kill him.

From a physical perspective, the krogan is a more impressive specimen. Yes, Sangheili have incredible feats, but against natural born supersoldiers?

For the individual above who stated that “radioactive projectiles” from the carbine (which were replaced by reactive projectiles anyway) are somehow effective against krogan, you know, the same species who thrive on radioactive homeworlds… What exactly were you thinking? The krogan evolved in a lethal ecology. Over millions of years, the grim struggle to survive larger predators, virulent disease, and resource scarcity on their homeworld, Tuchanka, turned the lizards into quintessential survivors. Perhaps the most telling indicator of Tuchanka’s lethality is the krogan eyes. Although they are a predators species by any standard definition, their eyes evolved to be wide-set, as any Earth prey species like deer and cattle. Krogan eyes have a 240-degree arc of vision, better suited for spotting enemies sneaking up on them than for pursuit. Physically, the krogan are nigh-indestructible, with a tough hide impervious to any melee weapon short of a molecular blade. While they feel pain, it does not affect their ability to concentrate. They have multiple functioning examples of all major organs, and can often survive the loss of one or two of any type. Rather than a nervous system, they have an electrically conductive second circulatory system. A krogan can never be paralyzed - they may lose some fluid, but it can be replaced by the body in time. (Source: Codex/Krogan Biology)

The Widow, being an anti-armor sniper rifle, was designed with a dual-purpose: to destroy APCs (possibly tanks) and kill krogan.

Your mook sangheili warrior is helpless against the onslaught that is a krogan warrior.

I agree with the majority of your posts…how ever I do believe the Sangheili would win do to their ability to often outsmart their opponent, if the question is: would the Krogan win against a Sangheili in a fist fight and go by weight and strength alone then yes the krogan would win every time, how ever if the question is would the Krogan win against a Sangheili in a fist fight and go by what we have learned of HOW they fight from both lore and the games, then my choice will be the Sangheili every time.

> 2533274926575406;14:
> I agree with the majority of your posts…how ever I do believe the Sangheili would win do to their ability to often outsmart their opponent, if the question is: would the Krogan win against a Sangheili in a fist fight and go by weight and strength alone then yes the krogan would win every time, how ever if the question is would the Krogan win against a Sangheili in a fist fight and go by what we have learned of HOW they fight from both lore and the games, then my choice will be the Sangheili every time.

Well, regarding Sangheili intelligence:
https://youtu.be/v1RnXePXDfA

Theres no point debating intelligence given that both the Sangheili and Krogan are composed of individuals with their own array of geniuses and idiots.

> 2533274889125491;13:
> > 2533274926227685;11:
> > > 2533274889125491;10:
> > > I am presuming this is a fully-grown, adult krogan, correct Drof?
> >
> >
> > Of course Operator. Why wouldn’t it be?
>
>
> Oh, come on Drof, you know better than this. :stuck_out_tongue:
>
> Its a win in the Krogan’s favor then. The durability of a krogan’s armor matches, if not already bests, a brute chieftain’s armor. Meanwhile, its canon that the sangheili’s armor is purposely designed to be crap (one of the books had an elite discussing with a prophet the difference between produced armors, human to elite. He notes human armor was superior to that which comes from the High Charity Assembly lines). Meanwhile, Urdnot Wrex had a bandoleer full of grenades explode on him, after being shot by a sniper. The only effect was a pissed-off krogan with a small hole in his armor. Other examples of Mass Effect’s armor durability include things like atmospheric entry (Mass Effect 2 Prologue).
>
> Referring back to the strength analysis by Rama:
>
>
> > 1) Wrex manages to lift and toss a roughly 90 kilo man into air, ten meters vertically, using him to bowl over a group of other humanoids. Assuming the force exerted upon the lift is equal in part to the work required to launch a one kilo ball ten meters into the air, then a Krogan would require a hundred times the lifting work capacity of the average human to accomplish such a feat. In fact compared to peak NFL athletes (as in the top 10%) a Krogan would be over twenty times stronger - at a minimum. Although the same muscles groups don’t necessarily translate into directly comparable levels of work (Wrex was tossing the weight along the weakest axis of any biped, the rotational cuff and bicep), the power required for such a feat would be equatable to a 2 ton bench press.
> >
> > 2) A “newborn” Krogan manages to heft a section of sheet metal with a volume of roughly 450,000 cm^3 (I don’t know how he calculated that number, but that sheet of metal had was larger then the krogan newborn (5:05)) with both arms extended from the pectorals, assuming it was lightweight aluminium the sheet would still weigh in at a whopping 1.2 tons; even a lightweight space age metal such as titanium would place the block at 2.25 metric tons.
> >
> > 3) 200 kilo plus Krogan are stated to be capable of easily outrunning genetically augmented Alliance Marines on foot and any human in general (the only reason this is noted is due to the fact that Greyson is heavily augmented to the point of appearing as a blur to his pursuers), while this doesn’t seem too noteworthy, the capacity for any large animal to accelerate itself to a running speed comparable to that of lighter, leaner animals does dictate an incredible degree of muscular strength. A Krogan would have to generate nearly three times the work in his leg muscles to match the average human, let alone (genetically augmented and conditioned) Alliance soldiers.
> >
> > 4) Krogan are capable of using stubby shotguns that are stated to break human bones when fired. The fact that the gun doesn’t spin right out of their hand the instant they fires it, makes them far stronger than any human. An AT High Impulse Weapon System (HIWS) doesn’t do that even when fired from a braced position, and that’s nearly 300 kg-m/s, which while capable of knocking back improperly mounted weapon systems doesn’t shatter bone. To reliably wield a weapon that can shatter human bones requires incredibly superhuman musculature.
> >
> > Although in my opinion this fight comes down to resilience, not strength. And as I’ve already outlined, unfortunately for the Sangheili Krogan are by and large ludicrously resilient. They’re covered in thick bullet resistant plates, have numerous redundant organs and their unique nervous system is seemingly immune to shock and paralysis. Wrex for example was caught out in a fuel air blast that would have scorched clean the lungs of a human and subsequently shot in the gut by a sniper rifle (which I have already posted above), the assailant later noting that he merely intended to slow down Wrex, not kill him.
>
>
> From a physical perspective, the krogan is a more impressive specimen. Yes, Sangheili have incredible feats, but against natural born supersoldiers?
>
> For the individual above who stated that “radioactive projectiles” from the carbine (which were replaced by reactive projectiles anyway) are somehow effective against krogan, you know, the same species who thrive on radioactive homeworlds… What exactly were you thinking? The krogan evolved in a lethal ecology. Over millions of years, the grim struggle to survive larger predators, virulent disease, and resource scarcity on their homeworld, Tuchanka, turned the lizards into quintessential survivors. Perhaps the most telling indicator of Tuchanka’s lethality is the krogan eyes. Although they are a predators species by any standard definition, their eyes evolved to be wide-set, as any Earth prey species like deer and cattle. Krogan eyes have a 240-degree arc of vision, better suited for spotting enemies sneaking up on them than for pursuit. Physically, the krogan are nigh-indestructible, with a tough hide impervious to any melee weapon short of a molecular blade. While they feel pain, it does not affect their ability to concentrate. They have multiple functioning examples of all major organs, and can often survive the loss of one or two of any type. Rather than a nervous system, they have an electrically conductive second circulatory system. A krogan can never be paralyzed - they may lose some fluid, but it can be replaced by the body in time. (Source: Codex/Krogan Biology)
>
> The Widow, being an anti-armor sniper rifle, was designed with a dual-purpose: to destroy APCs (possibly tanks) and kill krogan.
>
> Your mook sangheili warrior is helpless against the onslaught that is a krogan warrior.

What else could I do? How many Krogan have we seen in ME that isn’t an adult? And Grunt (and other tank bred Krogan do not count).

Interesting, when did that conversation take place? I can’t recall anything on that actually.

I would say that both Sangheili and Krogan are roughly equal strength (give or take), given that both can toss humans around like rag dolls and Ripa 'Moramee has been shown to be able to knock around other High Ranking Elites across the room with a single slap and had survived a Slipspace engine falling on him.

But I pretty much agree with everything else said.

I just love the Sangheili fanboism on these Forums. /Sarcasm

Krogan vs Brute: Krogan would win, hands down.
Krogan vs Elite: Elite would win, obviously.

Elite level = Spartan

Krogan level = any race in Mass Effect, most of which aren’t much over a baseline Human (sure there is example X and Y of this and that but fact is they get manhandled by people and people survive being manhandled by them: Shepherd, Zaide, Mordin, Anderson etc. etc.).

Shielded, Spartan Strength, Spartan speed, sometimes invisible, deadly plasma wielding Elite for the win.

> 2533274794866970;18:
> Elite level = Spartan
>
> Krogan level = any race in Mass Effect, most of which aren’t much over a baseline Human (sure there is example X and Y of this and that but fact is they get manhandled by people and people survive being manhandled by them: Shepherd, Zaide, Mordin, Anderson etc. etc.).
>
> Shielded, Spartan Strength, Spartan speed, sometimes invisible, deadly plasma wielding Elite for the win.

No they’re not. Halo Wars Cutscenes, Halo 5’s first mission cutscenes all beg to differ. Even the intro to Ghosts of Onyx shows that 12 years olds with inferior armour (and less experience) are killing Elites in droves.

You do know that the Krogan also possess kinetic barriers and armour right?

In regards to Elites being the same speed as Spartans: no they are not. Here’s a quote from First Strike regarding John’s fight with a Brute.
“There was a flicker on his motion sensor-just ahead. It vanished.
John held up his hand. Blue team froze.
His motion detector was clear… A shadow moved around the same pillar John used for cover. It moved faster than an Elite-as fast as John.”
This greatly implies that the Elites aren’t as fast as Spartans.

There are also cases of Krogans being able to take on numerous humans in CQC, such as Wrex.

Highly skilled Elites such as Thel 'Vadam and Rtas 'Vadum would be (roughly) equal to a Spartan. But certainly not all of them, nor should they be considering that the Sangheili are an entire species composed of individuals, not blank slates with set stats like an RPG.

I feel a Krogan’s kinetic barrier will only save them from the carbine, given that it fires radioactive projectiles rather than the traditional superheated bolt of plasma, so if the Sangheili were to use his plasma rifle in short controlled bursts and keep out of range of the shotgun then he would likely win. But if it was close quarters the Sangheili would have to rely on quick thinking and active camouflage to get the jump on the Krogan, if not then the Krogan wins hands down.