Halo CE worked so well BECAUSE it had a “utility weapon” that had to be used skillfully to dominate it’s intended range and gave you a pretty good chance to overcome weapons that are better in their respective ranges if you were good enough with it. This is what Halo needs, it doesn’t matter what it looks like, or what its called. Base the ENTIRE sandbox around that concept and you have as balanced a game as it gets, much like Halo 1. Each weapon was useful in its own way(except maybe the needler and plasma pistol). The plasma rifle overcame the pistol at close range thanks to it stun effect, but could still be overcame by the pistol if the pistol user made 0 mistakes. Shotty vs pistol close range is pretty much an even battle. Sniper vs Pistol at anything within the range of the pistol again is pretty much an even battle, but outside of the pistols intended range(cross-map on Hang Em’ High) the Sniper dominated, unless the pistol user was seriously SKILLED. This is the definition of balance and its what halo has needed since 2004 and I hope its what we get with CEA and MLG’s settings post-TU settings for Reach.
No. Utility weapons break games, just look at Halo 3.
The key to balance is having a sandbox of weapons with an intended purpose. A good example is Gears of War. prior to Gears 3, there were 2 starting rifles: one a precision weapon, the other a fully automatic assault rifle. Each had an intended range and purpose, and that creates balance.
Having a single weapon that is good for any and all situations breaks the game and makes it feel dull and repetitive.
Would be balanced if only one gun was used save for a few power weapons? Yes.
Would it get repetitive and dull very quickly? Yes.
true, having one “to rule them all” and all the other weapons just to break the monotony of that one weapon to get easier kills in certain circumstances is sort of “over generalization” of weapons and isn’t all that interesting. having a standard weapon that is good in many circumstances, but is not best in any, is the normal goal when creating balanced weapons, but CE and halo 3 had weapon unbalance, with the pistol and the BR surpassing many other weapons.
what you should want, is a variety of play style based weapons, that are versatile, but non-superior. the sad difference between the BR and AR in halo 3, was that one was a versatile rifle, and the other was a non-versatile -Yoink!- rifle. you want a balance with standard weapons, where the only difference is circumstancial.
this can be like a rts good ole fashion unit balance, Rock paper, scissors, where each one has a strength and weakness, or you can have a system of weapons that are specificly good at certain tasks, and reduce the amount of weapons significantly, stripping the weapons down to bear basics, and adding alt fire or ammo for uniqueness, similar to Section 8(that much balance requires customizable load outs, and makes load outs work, but we don’t want that).
I can’t name any other ways of doing it at the moment, but halo tried doin the whole RPS version, where BR is good at long range, AR is good at short, Pistol/magnum was supposed to be mid I guess. now, that works just fine, so long as the differences are evenly distributed and evened out. there need to be equal trade offs between each, to make each one desirable for players. you could add alt fire to further expand the versatility, allowing the guns to maybe switch roles slightly, but it still needs to be equal variables.
any other weapons you throw in have to be based around the variable statistics of the standard weapons, and based on how specific they are, will determine how much of a “specialized weapon” they are. If a weapon is outright better than a standard weapon in over all statistics, it’s a “power weapon” and must be obtained via map control.
that said, I think there should be two shot guns, one that is a “power weapon” that can one shot, and one that is"specialized" for close quarters, that also hits mid range, taking 2 shots in cqc and an average of 3-4 from further away. it would be superior to the “standard” weapons in cqc and short range, but not as good mid range. because it’s specialized, you dont start with one, but it’s also not a “power weapon”, so you can find more than one on a map.
Power weapons, should be few and far in between, one of a kind on a map, and require map control to access and maintain. the CQC “power weapon” would not be a shot gun, but something like the energy sword or hammer, and should be superior for all intensive purposes in CQC. if you have more than one “kind” of power weapon, like the sword, and the hammer, they must both have specific reasons for existing, or unique abilities that set them apart, and are both different, and of equal standing statisticly. if not, then they are clone weapons, and are unneeded in a MM experience.
the same rule should be applied to “specialization weapons”, and everything else in the game. this is the ideal way to make a FPS game balanced.
tldr-learn to read, cause this stuff is very relevant and will hopefully mean something to 343i
> Halo CE worked so well BECAUSE it had a “utility weapon” that had to be used skillfully to dominate it’s intended range and gave you a pretty good chance to overcome weapons that are better in their respective ranges if you were good enough with it. This is what Halo needs, it doesn’t matter what it looks like, or what its called. Base the ENTIRE sandbox around that concept and you have as balanced a game as it gets, much like Halo 1. Each weapon was useful in its own way(except maybe the needler and plasma pistol). The plasma rifle overcame the pistol at close range thanks to it stun effect, but could still be overcame by the pistol if the pistol user made 0 mistakes. Shotty vs pistol close range is pretty much an even battle. Sniper vs Pistol at anything within the range of the pistol again is pretty much an even battle, but outside of the pistols intended range(cross-map on Hang Em’ High) the Sniper dominated, unless the pistol user was seriously SKILLED. This is the definition of balance and its what halo has needed since 2004 and I hope its what we get with CEA and MLG’s settings post-TU settings for Reach.
wrong.
halo ce “worked” on system link because there is no lag.
I played HCE for windows for almost 5 years. TRUST ME EVERYONE EITHER HATED OR IGNORED THE MAGNUM.
On HCE for windows, there would be multiple lobbies called “no shee kids”,“no magnums”, or “trifacta” (ill elaborate in a sec)
No shee and No magnums were made because magnums broke the game in the slightest lag. This was both because of no hitscan (same reason halo 3 sucked), shots would not register if you were not hosting.
Trifacta was a game mode where you spawned with AR, shotgun, and sniper. (holding 3 weapons)
There were all weapons on map except magnum. But there were 2 magnums on hang em high.
you may say “spawning with sniper! thats so broken!!!”…
It wasnt, in CE, the lack of hitscan made sniper a really difficult weapon that only a skilled player could use, trifacta was my favorite mod.
H2 was great, the hitscan covered the lag and shots registed.
H3 sucked, It was an awesome game on system link, but in the slightest lag: shot registration went to hell.
Halo reach is good, while bloom is silly, shots register. period. no matter how much lag.
Why would anyone want to play an FPS version of rock, paper, scissors? Is there skill to rock, paper, scissors? I’m am so absolutely beyond shocked that you guys would rather play a big elaborate game of rock, paper, scissors. Seriously? So every encounter you want to be a straight 1/3 chance(short range, med range, long range) of winning?
A utility weapon has been a part of every Halo, 1-Reach. Arguing against it is arguing against one of the biggest core aspects of Halo. This is not CoD with shields, its Halo. Sure, it may get repetitive, but the repetitive part is FUN. Thats the point. Thats Halo. That being said, another core aspect of Halo is the customization. You don’t have to play with pistols and you don’t even have to play with guns. You can play however you want, and thats what was done in Halo CE as well. Snipers, Shottys, and SWAT were ALL born in Halo 1. I’m not saying that is not a part of Halo, but they are accessories to the core experience. The BR/DMR are limited by spread/bloom and lack of power. When I played Halo Reach I thought it could be the best Halo since CE if they just removed bloom and after playing it without bloom I have to say its true and I can’t wait to try Halo CEA multiplayer.
> No. Utility weapons break games, just look at Halo 3.
>
> The key to balance is having a sandbox of weapons with an intended purpose. A good example is Gears of War. prior to Gears 3, there were 2 starting rifles: one a precision weapon, the other a fully automatic assault rifle. Each had an intended range and purpose, and that creates balance.
>
> Having a single weapon that is good for any and all situations breaks the game and makes it feel dull and repetitive.
Niche weapons break halo and utility weapons allow for skill gap. Every weapon would need a purpose if Bungie didnt make 5 of the same weapons. (spiker/ar/repeater/plasma rifle/turrets)
It slows down gameplay so much. For example if i have a shotgun, im going to wait in a enclosed room. If the enemy knows i have a shotgun, why would he come into the room? = slow game and pre-determined fights.
> Why would anyone want to play an FPS version of rock, paper, scissors? Is there skill to rock, paper, scissors? I’m am so absolutely beyond shocked that you guys would rather play a big elaborate game of rock, paper, scissors. Seriously? So every encounter you want to be a straight 1/3 chance(short range, med range, long range) of winning?
>
> A utility weapon has been a part of every Halo, 1-Reach. Arguing against it is arguing against one of the biggest core aspects of Halo. This is not CoD with shields, its Halo. Sure, it may get repetitive, but the repetitive part is FUN. Thats the point. Thats Halo. That being said, another core aspect of Halo is the customization. You don’t have to play with pistols and you don’t even have to play with guns. You can play however you want, and thats what was done in Halo CE as well. Snipers, Shottys, and SWAT were ALL born in Halo 1. I’m not saying that is not a part of Halo, but they are accessories to the core experience. The BR/DMR are limited by spread/bloom and lack of power. When I played Halo Reach I thought it could be the best Halo since CE if they just removed bloom and after playing it without bloom I have to say its true and I can’t wait to try Halo CEA multiplayer.
Utility weapons have been a part of Halo since Halo 2 (I would hardly call the CE Pistol a Utility weapon), but Bungie and parts of the community have recognized that a weapon good for ever situation is not a good idea. You may like repetition, but I (and is seems quite of a few of the people who replied to this topic) like variety. Halo CE was great because it had a sandbox of weapons with different uses and purposes. Furthermore, you were restricted to two weapons, and had to pick which weapon based on your situation. That makes variety, and that is what makes Halo fun.
Halo 3 was BR fest, and I remember the hate against it in the latter days of Halo 3 and during Reach’s development. Bungie recognized this, and made the DMR a mid to long range marksman weapon, not a utility weapon.
Finally, you talk of hate against bloom or bullet spread, but this has existed since Halo CE. Maybe not in the HUD, but in the function of the weapon.
> > No. Utility weapons break games, just look at Halo 3.
> >
> > The key to balance is having a sandbox of weapons with an intended purpose. A good example is Gears of War. prior to Gears 3, there were 2 starting rifles: one a precision weapon, the other a fully automatic assault rifle. Each had an intended range and purpose, and that creates balance.
> >
> > Having a single weapon that is good for any and all situations breaks the game and makes it feel dull and repetitive.
>
> Niche weapons break halo and utility weapons allow for skill gap. Every weapon would need a purpose if Bungie didnt make 5 of the same weapons. (spiker/ar/repeater/plasma rifle/turrets)
>
> It slows down gameplay so much. For example if i have a shotgun, im going to wait in a enclosed room. If the enemy knows i have a shotgun, why would he come into the room? = slow game and pre-determined fights.
Yes, the Spike, AR, PR, and turrets all work the same and are basically the same weapon…read that back to yourself, and think about what you just said (wrote).
As for your shotgun scenario: If the enemy knows you have a shotgun, they throw grenades or secure a weapon to counter your shotgun. I don’t exactly see how that slows gameplay. Halo is about picking the right weapons for you situation.
> > Why would anyone want to play an FPS version of rock, paper, scissors? Is there skill to rock, paper, scissors? I’m am so absolutely beyond shocked that you guys would rather play a big elaborate game of rock, paper, scissors. Seriously? So every encounter you want to be a straight 1/3 chance(short range, med range, long range) of winning?
> >
> > A utility weapon has been a part of every Halo, 1-Reach. Arguing against it is arguing against one of the biggest core aspects of Halo. This is not CoD with shields, its Halo. Sure, it may get repetitive, but the repetitive part is FUN. Thats the point. Thats Halo. That being said, another core aspect of Halo is the customization. You don’t have to play with pistols and you don’t even have to play with guns. You can play however you want, and thats what was done in Halo CE as well. Snipers, Shottys, and SWAT were ALL born in Halo 1. I’m not saying that is not a part of Halo, but they are accessories to the core experience. The BR/DMR are limited by spread/bloom and lack of power. When I played Halo Reach I thought it could be the best Halo since CE if they just removed bloom and after playing it without bloom I have to say its true and I can’t wait to try Halo CEA multiplayer.
>
> Utility weapons have been a part of Halo since Halo 2 (I would hardly call the CE Pistol a Utility weapon), but Bungie and parts of the community have recognized that a weapon good for ever situation is not a good idea. You may like repetition, but I (and is seems quite of a few of the people who replied to this topic) like variety. Halo CE was great because it had a sandbox of weapons with different uses and purposes. Furthermore, you were restricted to two weapons, and had to pick which weapon based on your situation. That makes variety, and that is what makes Halo fun.
>
> Halo 3 was BR fest, and I remember the hate against it in the latter days of Halo 3 and during Reach’s development. Bungie recognized this, and made the DMR a mid to long range marksman weapon, not a utility weapon.
>
> Finally, you talk of hate against bloom or bullet spread, but this has existed since Halo CE. Maybe not in the HUD, but in the function of the weapon.
Halo 1 pistol was more of a utility weapon than the H2 BR. The H2 br was more of a utility weapon than H3 BR. The H3 br as more of a utility weapon the the bloomed DMR. The CE Pistol was the dominant and most skillful weapon ever put in halo. Other weapons hardly had a purpose in CE. The rockets, sniper, and MAYBE the shotgun even had a purpose(on a non-laggy network atleast, which is doable with the technology now…)
If variety makes halo fun, why wouldnt bungie put 100 weapons? It wouldnt be that hard to add or take much coding. Niche weapons limit what a player can do and cause people to win just because they were caught in a niche (which is the main reason people camp). For example if the shotgun became a skillful one shot weapon at any range (similar to a no scope) There would be considerably less camping. Look at how skillful a sniper is deemed even though its considerably easy, its because its useful at all ranges if your good enough, which is scoping and no scoping. Its amazing that something as simple as a scope can comepletely change a weapon and gameplay.
Aceman v2… I cannot agree with you MORE!!! You are one of the only people I see on these forums that actually understand what made the original Halo so great!
Toa Freak, Reyaweak - you are 100% TOTALLY WRONG - Its nobodys fault you suck at video games and get owned by people who have skills.
Balance is NOT having every weapon equal in power and everyone runs around like little kids with water guns. Balance has to do with your skill level. Halo WAS balaced because no matter what weapon you were up against, if you had the pistol to start (WITH SKILL) you could defend yourself against anything, close range shottys, rocket launchers… didnt matter. Thats what made the game so great. Yeah the needler should have been updraded but everything else could and was used.
The reason why the franchise exists today is becuase of the word of mouth from all the people who got and understood the balance and quality of game halo CE which got the ball rolling for the franchise. Bungie pretty much all out admittied that Halo2 was a huge mistake (not their doing) who was pressured by -Yoink!- to make the game as easy as possible to try and gain the largest base of users. What it did was piss off their most loyal fan base with the “everyone just run around and spray each other with bullets” mentality. Every version of halo since has gotten closer to the original. Not quiet there yet. Lets hope 343’s version of this game holds true to the REAL Halo. If you are reading this “343 Insustries” do the right thing… Make this game as true to the game play as the first version and you will have a HUGE success on your hands and watch the longevity of your game stay high.
> > > No. Utility weapons break games, just look at Halo 3.
> > >
> > > The key to balance is having a sandbox of weapons with an intended purpose. A good example is Gears of War. prior to Gears 3, there were 2 starting rifles: one a precision weapon, the other a fully automatic assault rifle. Each had an intended range and purpose, and that creates balance.
> > >
> > > Having a single weapon that is good for any and all situations breaks the game and makes it feel dull and repetitive.
> >
> > Niche weapons break halo and utility weapons allow for skill gap. Every weapon would need a purpose if Bungie didnt make 5 of the same weapons. (spiker/ar/repeater/plasma rifle/turrets)
> >
> > It slows down gameplay so much. For example if i have a shotgun, im going to wait in a enclosed room. If the enemy knows i have a shotgun, why would he come into the room? = slow game and pre-determined fights.
>
> Yes, the Spike, AR, PR, and turrets all work the same and are basically the same weapon…read that back to yourself, and think about what you just said (wrote).
>
> As for your shotgun scenario: If the enemy knows you have a shotgun, they throw grenades or secure a weapon to counter your shotgun. I don’t exactly see how that slows gameplay. Halo is about picking the right weapons for you situation.
They are the same weapon basically, all automatic and only work at close ranges. And unless your on 300% speed running across a map to get a counter (if there is even one on the map and assuming the enemy hasnt alreayd got it) will slow down gameplay. Stickies are the only reasonable counter and even then its like a 40% chance for most people and you almsot always die if you stick someone. Also, you dont know where an enemy is if they crouch off radar.
I’d hate utility weapons too if I sucked at Halo.
> Aceman v2… I cannot agree with you MORE!!! You are one of the only people I see on these forums that actually understand what made the original Halo so great!
>
> Toa Freak, Reyaweak - you are 100% TOTALLY WRONG - Its nobodys fault you suck at video games and get owned by people who have skills.
>
> Balance is NOT having every weapon equal in power and everyone runs around like little kids with water guns. Balance has to do with your skill level. Halo WAS balaced because no matter what weapon you were up against, if you had the pistol to start (WITH SKILL) you could defend yourself against anything, close range shottys, rocket launchers… didnt matter. Thats what made the game so great. Yeah the needler should have been updraded but everything else could and was used.
>
> The reason why the franchise exists today is becuase of the word of mouth from all the people who got and understood the balance and quality of game halo CE which got the ball rolling for the franchise. Bungie pretty much all out admittied that Halo2 was a huge mistake (not their doing) who was pressured by -Yoink!- to make the game as easy as possible to try and gain the largest base of users. What it did was piss off their most loyal fan base with the “everyone just run around and spray each other with bullets” mentality. Every version of halo since has gotten closer to the original. Not quiet there yet. Lets hope 343’s version of this game holds true to the REAL Halo. If you are reading this “343 Insustries” do the right thing… Make this game as true to the game play as the first version and you will have a HUGE success on your hands and watch the longevity of your game stay high.
How is a weapon that can overcome any other weapon considered balanced? Gears of War 2 had a weapon like this: the Gnasher Shotgun. And Gears 2’s multiplayer was considered horrible by many fans.
Also, I’m not saying that Halo should be a game were everyone just runs and guns. That’s the last thing I want (i’d play COD if I wanted that). Balance means that each weapon in the sandbox has a purpose, a range and situation when it is most effect and least effective. To have a weapon that is potentially good at any range and situation is not balanced, and it boring and repetitive.
> > Aceman v2… I cannot agree with you MORE!!! You are one of the only people I see on these forums that actually understand what made the original Halo so great!
> >
> > Toa Freak, Reyaweak - you are 100% TOTALLY WRONG - Its nobodys fault you suck at video games and get owned by people who have skills.
> >
> > Balance is NOT having every weapon equal in power and everyone runs around like little kids with water guns. Balance has to do with your skill level. Halo WAS balaced because no matter what weapon you were up against, if you had the pistol to start (WITH SKILL) you could defend yourself against anything, close range shottys, rocket launchers… didnt matter. Thats what made the game so great. Yeah the needler should have been updraded but everything else could and was used.
> >
> > The reason why the franchise exists today is becuase of the word of mouth from all the people who got and understood the balance and quality of game halo CE which got the ball rolling for the franchise. Bungie pretty much all out admittied that Halo2 was a huge mistake (not their doing) who was pressured by -Yoink!- to make the game as easy as possible to try and gain the largest base of users. What it did was piss off their most loyal fan base with the “everyone just run around and spray each other with bullets” mentality. Every version of halo since has gotten closer to the original. Not quiet there yet. Lets hope 343’s version of this game holds true to the REAL Halo. If you are reading this “343 Insustries” do the right thing… Make this game as true to the game play as the first version and you will have a HUGE success on your hands and watch the longevity of your game stay high.
>
> How is a weapon that can overcome any other weapon considered balanced? Gears of War 2 had a weapon like this: the Gnasher Shotgun. And Gears 2’s multiplayer was considered horrible by many fans.
>
> Also, I’m not saying that Halo should be a game were everyone just runs and guns. That’s the last thing I want (i’d play COD if I wanted that). Balance means that each weapon in the sandbox has a purpose, a range and situation when it is most effect and least effective. To have a weapon that is potentially good at any range and situation is not balanced, and it boring and repetitive.
If weapons were actualy accustomed to skill sets instead of niches, each person could feel like they are supplying their own contribution to a team, and would be more apt to play the game. Im sick of niche weapons limiting what i can and cannot do. And technically you obviously dont like sniper rifles. They can kill in one shot no matter the location.
> > > > No. Utility weapons break games, just look at Halo 3.
> > > >
> > > > The key to balance is having a sandbox of weapons with an intended purpose. A good example is Gears of War. prior to Gears 3, there were 2 starting rifles: one a precision weapon, the other a fully automatic assault rifle. Each had an intended range and purpose, and that creates balance.
> > > >
> > > > Having a single weapon that is good for any and all situations breaks the game and makes it feel dull and repetitive.
> > >
> > > Niche weapons break halo and utility weapons allow for skill gap. Every weapon would need a purpose if Bungie didnt make 5 of the same weapons. (spiker/ar/repeater/plasma rifle/turrets)
> > >
> > > It slows down gameplay so much. For example if i have a shotgun, im going to wait in a enclosed room. If the enemy knows i have a shotgun, why would he come into the room? = slow game and pre-determined fights.
> >
> > Yes, the Spike, AR, PR, and turrets all work the same and are basically the same weapon…read that back to yourself, and think about what you just said (wrote).
> >
> > As for your shotgun scenario: If the enemy knows you have a shotgun, they throw grenades or secure a weapon to counter your shotgun. I don’t exactly see how that slows gameplay. Halo is about picking the right weapons for you situation.
>
> They are the same weapon basically, all automatic and only work at close ranges. And unless your on 300% speed running across a map to get a counter (if there is even one on the map and assuming the enemy hasnt alreayd got it) will slow down gameplay. Stickies are the only reasonable counter and even then its like a 40% chance for most people and you almsot always die if you stick someone. Also, you dont know where an enemy is if they crouch off radar.
The turret works at about any range, actually, and while each is an automatic weapon, each works significantly different than the others.
Also, the beautiful thing about grenades, especially when placed right, is they cause the player model to move, even if slightly, revealing the enemy location.
> > > Aceman v2… I cannot agree with you MORE!!! You are one of the only people I see on these forums that actually understand what made the original Halo so great!
> > >
> > > Toa Freak, Reyaweak - you are 100% TOTALLY WRONG - Its nobodys fault you suck at video games and get owned by people who have skills.
> > >
> > > Balance is NOT having every weapon equal in power and everyone runs around like little kids with water guns. Balance has to do with your skill level. Halo WAS balaced because no matter what weapon you were up against, if you had the pistol to start (WITH SKILL) you could defend yourself against anything, close range shottys, rocket launchers… didnt matter. Thats what made the game so great. Yeah the needler should have been updraded but everything else could and was used.
> > >
> > > The reason why the franchise exists today is becuase of the word of mouth from all the people who got and understood the balance and quality of game halo CE which got the ball rolling for the franchise. Bungie pretty much all out admittied that Halo2 was a huge mistake (not their doing) who was pressured by -Yoink!- to make the game as easy as possible to try and gain the largest base of users. What it did was piss off their most loyal fan base with the “everyone just run around and spray each other with bullets” mentality. Every version of halo since has gotten closer to the original. Not quiet there yet. Lets hope 343’s version of this game holds true to the REAL Halo. If you are reading this “343 Insustries” do the right thing… Make this game as true to the game play as the first version and you will have a HUGE success on your hands and watch the longevity of your game stay high.
> >
> > How is a weapon that can overcome any other weapon considered balanced? Gears of War 2 had a weapon like this: the Gnasher Shotgun. And Gears 2’s multiplayer was considered horrible by many fans.
> >
> > Also, I’m not saying that Halo should be a game were everyone just runs and guns. That’s the last thing I want (i’d play COD if I wanted that). Balance means that each weapon in the sandbox has a purpose, a range and situation when it is most effect and least effective. To have a weapon that is potentially good at any range and situation is not balanced, and it boring and repetitive.
>
> If weapons were actualy accustomed to skill sets instead of niches, each person could feel like they are supplying their own contribution to a team, and would be more apt to play the game. Im sick of niche weapons limiting what i can and cannot do. And technically you obviously dont like sniper rifles. They can kill in one shot no matter the location.
I don’t hate sniper rifles at all. As range closes, they get harder to use (as it should be with a long range weapon).
Gorram double posts…
^
How am i supposed to know to throw a gernade in a hall if i dont see him on the radar?
And its not like i can nade all possible locations, i spawn with freaking 2 gernades, sometiems even 1.
^Then why cant they make it to where its hard to get a 16sk with an AR at long distance? And a next to impossible 1sk with a Shotgun halfway across the map?
You act like pulling off a 5sk with dmr, 4sk with br, or 3sk with pistol is easier than a no scope.