Too Much Precision Weapon Focus in Past Halos

Games Halo 5: Guardians
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> 2533274844635278;109:
> @GNC Green
>
> We simply disagree on this matter and I don’t expect to change your opinion. I’ll just say what I have to say and won’t address this again.
>
> Mod settings on Halo games hardly fix all problems. Bloom is a problem on ranged weapons but I don’t think it is for close range automatics. There needs to be something to compensate for rapid fire so they aren’t as good for long range whether that be bloom or something else like low ammo, small magazine, or fast overheat. A no bloom weak projectile automatic weapon would work better as another kind of Covenant pistol with a fast overheat time. Storm Rifle was originally made for charging into close range like “Storming” a room.
>
> I would rather your AR with a grenade launcher be another weapon instead of replacing the standard AR. Maybe the MA5B Carbine or something. Unless the grenade is no more than a firecracker then it’s a power weapon no matter how bouncy the grenade was, and it would beg the question why the UNSC started making grenades out of Flubber. It would be better balanced with a small Mauler-like super close range shotgun instead of a grenade lancher.
>
> But double guns would only work in either a CoD like custom loadout system, having every gun be a double gun, or having dual wielding. Double guns are more unbalanced than dual wielding. I don’t think that’s what the player base wants.

You seem to be getting pretty mad, but that’s probably because I’m winning the argument. Being hard to hit with is the balancing factor. So what if the grenades travel farther, move faster, and bounce more? If it’s really hard to land hits, that’s the balancing factor, just like with the Sniper. You’re not really explaining how it would be overpowered, you’re just repeatedly saying that it is without providing any in-depth logic or reasoning.

The Promod Storm Rifle’s balancing factor was low damage, slower projectiles, and overheat, which made it well balanced without bloom. I want you to seriously play Promod with me, we’ll do Storm Rifle vs AR and Storm Rifle vs BR.

I am someone who is against OP weapons, which is why I am taking the time to balance the grenade launcher. Nonetheless it wouldn’t be designed as a starting jack-of-all-trades weapon, it would be a pickup weapon geared around defensive play and suppressive fire. Trying to balance the AR as a jack-of-all-trades weapon is a bad idea, that’s what utility weapons are for, and they really fit better for that role since they can cover a better variety of ranges. It worked fairly well in Marathon and Unreal, so it can easily work in Halo.

Plasma Pistol, Boltshot, Light Rifle. All “double guns”, yet I don’t see you complaining about that. Are you confusing my Grenade Launcher concept with COD’s? It wouldn’t be 1sk on direct hit.

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@GNC Green

I’m not mad, and I don’t think either one if us is “winning” because we’re not budging. I just don’t want to continue on this debate about your weapon ideas because it’s clear neither one of us will change our mind.

I’ve said before there’s a difference between double guns and double function guns. The latter uses the same ammo pool for both firing modes which balances having two functions. The former has two different ammo pools essentially being the same as dual wielding and that was removed from Halo for a reason. Debate it with someone else if you want to continue. If you think you win, then fine, you win. I guarantee it’ll never make it into Halo though. I implore anyone agreeing with your idea to post here saying so. If you have anything other than that to talk about, I’ll gladly participate.

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They should make it so all weapons have their own uses. Automatic weapons would be good at close range, having high rate of fire, while Precision weapons would be more accurate but have a slower rate of fire so you would have to use your shots more carefully and make close range encounters with someone with an Automatic much more dangerous.

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> 2533274844635278;111:
> @GNC Green
>
> I’m not mad, and I don’t think either one if us is “winning” because we’re not budging. I just don’t want to continue on this debate about your weapon ideas because it’s clear neither one of us will change our mind.
>
> I’ve said before there’s a difference between double guns and double function guns. The latter uses the same ammo pool for both firing modes which balances having two functions. The former has two different ammo pools essentially being the same as dual wielding and that was removed from Halo for a reason. Debate it with someone else if you want to continue. If you think you win, then fine, you win. I guarantee it’ll never make it into Halo though. I implore anyone agreeing with your idea to post here saying so. If you have anything other than that to talk about, I’ll gladly participate.

I mean winning the debate as in successfully countering all of the opposition’s arguments and making your point stand tall over theirs.

The grenade launcher wouldn’t make the weapon double function. This assault rifle concept is geared toward defensive play and suppressive fire, where an underbarrel grenade launcher totally fits in. It complements the role of the weapon, just like how the Plasma Pistol’s charged shot fits with that weapon’s anti-shield role.

The Grenade Launcher would use frags, not an extra ammo pool.

Duel Wielding was imbalanced because there was no drawback to it, no increased recoil or bullet spread. That and it allowed for an easy noob combo.

No one thought sprint, AAs, loadouts, perks, ordnance, instant respawn, bloom, and grenade indicators would make it in, but they did. Although the difference here is that the GL would be balanced accordingly.

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@GNC Green

Yeah talk about noob combo… I hope you realize what is more noob combo than a plasma pistol…

Anyone that thinks you won the debate should post here. We’ve said all we have to say and we’re repeating ourselves at this point. I leave it in the hands of the audience.

Moving on…

Rifles of the plasma kind are fine with bloom. They can’t headshot and by design they’re made for close to medium range. Precision weapons shouldn’t have a random aspect but bullet hoses need it for balance.

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> 2533274844635278;114:
> @GNC Green
>
> Yeah talk about noob combo… I hope you realize what is more noob combo than a plasma pistol…
>
> Anyone that thinks you won the debate should post here. We’ve said all we have to say and we’re repeating ourselves at this point. I leave it in the hands of the audience.
>
> Moving on…
>
> Rifles of the plasma kind are fine with bloom. They can’t headshot and by design they’re made for close to medium range. Precision weapons shouldn’t have a random aspect but bullet hoses need it for balance.

It’s harder to hit someone with a projectile that bounces all over the damn place, takes a moment to detonate, and does not explode on direct hit, than it is to blast someone with a homing projectile. If you can’t land a direct hit and the grenade doesn’t stay in place, it’s hard to hit an enemy with. It’d be way harder to hit someone with the GL compared to normal frag grenades, as normal frags only bounce once and then they typically stay in place, while the GL would bounce way more. It would have more range and velocity but it’d be about 2-3x harder to use. You have yet to take the time and explain how this is overpowered on a deep and technical level. If my argument displays logic/reasoning and yours does not, them tell me who is really winning here? I am. It’s like the central rule of debating, bro.

It depends on whether the audience is using in-depth analysis, logic, and reasoning to support their side. Merely saying “I believe this” doesn’t really hold much weight in the argument. If their arguing skills is just about as poor as yours, I don’t really think it matters what they think. If you ever DO happen to use logic/reasoning, successfully counter each of my points, and manage to make your side stand against my own various counter-arguments, then your side of the debate wins. Otherwise, I win because I’ve deflected every single counter argument that came at me, and also have managed to prove that I am 100% right about this matter.

If the Storm Rifle deals low damage, has a slower projectile speed, and only enables one kill before quickly overheating, does it really matter if it fires in a straight line? You can still easily dodge at anything past close-mid range. If you’re enemies are always going to dodge your shots at that range, then you obviously can’t really snipe with it, can you? Thus it’s balanced, and you have provided no good reasoning as to why to you think it’s “overpowered”. Play Promod with me, BR vs Storm Rifle, you’ll see how balanced it is.

Accuracy doesn’t make a weapon overpowered if it has low damage and is easily dodged at longer ranges. Don’t keep focusing on the accuracy and focus on the other factors that clearly balance it out. It’s good for close to mid range, and you’ll see that in our 1v1. This Storm Rifle is actually geared toward competitive play and promotes consistent accuracy. The Storm Rifle you want is just a nooby spray n pray weapon with no skill required. You can’t even burst fire with the default Storm Rifle, it’s just mindless blunt force.

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Ok fine you win. Do you want me to sing your praises on a soapbox in times square? Oh lawdy lawdy I submit to thee, the great prophet that brought us the vision of the AR/GL combo. Praise be to him for making Halo the true competitive game that has thus eluded us. Next we should have covenant carbines that shoot stickies and BRs that shoot rockets but to balance them you do the splits for 10 seconds after using it.

Your idea doesnt fit because it would remove our ability to use regular grenades and if it didnt it would need its own ammo pool which is worse. And if the grenade is bouncier then people could use it to hit people out of normal grenade range, and if it uses your own frags but is weaker for no apparent reason then that is a logic fail, and if you came up with a reason for it then that means the UNSC has stupid engineers for making a grenade that is both weaker than when you throw it and is harder to hit enemies with.

P.S. I dont have an Xbox 360 anymore. So no 1v1

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> 2533274844635278;116:
> Ok fine you win. Do you want me to sing your praises on a soapbox in times square? Oh lawdy lawdy I submit to thee, the great prophet that brought us the vision of the AR/GL combo. Praise be to him for making Halo the true competitive game that has thus eluded us. Next we should have covenant carbines that shoot stickies and BRs that shoot rockets but to balance them you do the splits for 10 seconds after using it.
>
> Your idea doesnt fit because it would remove our ability to use regular grenades and if it didnt it would need its own ammo pool which is worse. And if the grenade is bouncier then people could use it to hit people out of normal grenade range, and if it uses your own frags but is weaker for no apparent reason then that is a logic fail, and if you came up with a reason for it then that means the UNSC has stupid engineers for making a grenade that is both weaker than when you throw it and is harder to hit enemies with.
>
> P.S. I dont have an Xbox 360 anymore. So no 1v1

Time to counter-argue.

Rockets are OP. Being able to launch plasma grenades would also be OP as there’d be no drawback to make up for the faster grenades. With the GL, you would have faster frag grenades but they’d be way more bouncier, thus making it harder to precisely land a hit on your target. The extra range/velocity is balanced by being harder to hit with. For a plasma grenade launcher, there’d be no major drawback such as this to balance it out.

It wouldn’t have to take away the ability to us normal grenades. The GL could be fired by pressing down the left trigger for .5 seconds, and you could throw frag grenades normally by quickly tapping the trigger.

Sure, the range may be longer, but if it’s hard to use that range effectively, it’s balanced. Look at the Sniper. You can kill a target from the other side of the map, but it’s balanced because it takes a ton of practice to use it effectively. Same deal with the Grenade Launcher, so how can you say that my Grenade Launcher is OP but the Sniper isn’t? It doesn’t add up.

It isn’t weaker than frags, just harder to hit with so that only a skilled user can utilize its highest damage output. I also want to ask, why does the military still use pump action shotguns 500 years in the future? I’ll tell you why: it’s a video game where realism doesn’t really matter.

Then I’ll show you a 1v1 in action with the Storm Rifle vs BR, to show you that it isn’t overpowered.

Now that I’ve successfully countered all of your criticisms, my argument still stands. Anything else you want me to counter?

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I’ll just let anyone that agrees with you to say so since we’re the only ones keeping the topic alive at this point. Regardless if you “win” your idea wont make it into the game because the devs only do 0.000001% of what the community asks and it’s only small tweaks and not serious overhauls like your AR.

I’m not replying to this thread anymore. If it makes you feel better then consider yourself the winner.

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> 2533274844635278;118:
> I’ll just let anyone that agrees with you to say so since we’re the only ones keeping the topic alive at this point. Regardless if you “win” your idea wont make it into the game because the devs only do 0.000001% of what the community asks and it’s only small tweaks and not serious overhauls like your AR.
>
> I’m not replying to this thread anymore. If it makes you feel better then consider yourself the winner.

By that logic every post on waypoint would be pointless, including yours. But that’s not entirely the case, now is it?

Regardless, replacing most of the bloom/spread with insane recoil is a better idea compared to keeping it as a mindless, noobish, spray n pray weapon, whether you want to admit it or not. It reduces the random factor and makes the weapon more skillful.

Now when it comes to the rate of fire, magazine size, and whether or not it should have grenade launcher, that all comes down to what role you are trying to gear the AR toward. My AR concept is based around defensive play and suppressive fire, so the 60-round clip, fast rate of fire, and grenade launcher make it perfect for that role. The magazine size and fast rate of fire are balanced by the recoil, loud firing sound, and how the weapon burns through ammo fast. The GL is balanced by requiring a ton of skill and practice to be used effectively, similar to how the Sniper is balanced.

I personally feel that trying to turn an automatic into a jack of all trades weapon is a bad idea, simply because they aren’t nearly as versatile as utility weapons. Utility weapons can reach all ranges, automatics are restricted to close-mid range, so the AR simply can’t be made to fit into that role.

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Well I thought with all the forum traffic that I would bring this back to the top for some shameless views!

But in all seriousness, due to some… new information… maybe the next Halo will turn out to be something fresh. Enjoy the topic and post your thoughts on the matter.

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> 2533274844635278;120:
> Well I thought with all the forum traffic that I would bring this back to the top for some shameless views!
>
> But in all seriousness, due to some… new information… maybe the next Halo will turn out to be something fresh. Enjoy the topic and post your thoughts on the matter.

I would continue arguing but as of now there are more drastic issues to discuss: sprint/ADS.

I only have this to say, whoever stands against all counter arguments and can use in-depth logic/reasoning to support their viewpoint wins, and right now, that’s me, so as of yet I am winning. It’s how debating works?

If you can’t even defend your own ooint and all you can do is try to rely on other people, then you already lost. So far my GL stands against all of your complaints, due to my successfully counter-arguing, so if you have nothing else to say, then yeah, epic fail bro.

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> 2533275027956921;121:
> > 2533274844635278;120:
> > Well I thought with all the forum traffic that I would bring this back to the top for some shameless views!
> >
> > But in all seriousness, due to some… new information… maybe the next Halo will turn out to be something fresh. Enjoy the topic and post your thoughts on the matter.
>
>
> I would continue arguing but as of now there are more drastic issues to discuss: sprint/ADS.
>
> I only have this to say, whoever stands against all counter arguments and can use in-depth logic/reasoning to support their viewpoint wins, and right now, that’s me, so as of yet I am winning. It’s how debating works?
>
> If you can’t even defend your own ooint and all you can do is try to rely on other people, then you already lost. So far my GL stands against all of your complaints, due to my successfully counter-arguing, so if you have nothing else to say, then yeah, epic fail bro.

I’m not discussing that anymore. Moving on to other things.

P.S. If you’ve seen what I’ve seen then the absence of an AR+GL weapon means I win :stuck_out_tongue:

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> 2533274844635278;122:
> > 2533275027956921;121:
> > > 2533274844635278;120:
> > > Well I thought with all the forum traffic that I would bring this back to the top for some shameless views!
> > >
> > > But in all seriousness, due to some… new information… maybe the next Halo will turn out to be something fresh. Enjoy the topic and post your thoughts on the matter.
> >
> >
> >
> > I would continue arguing but as of now there are more drastic issues to discuss: sprint/ADS.
> >
> > I only have this to say, whoever stands against all counter arguments and can use in-depth logic/reasoning to support their viewpoint wins, and right now, that’s me, so as of yet I am winning. It’s how debating works?
> >
> > If you can’t even defend your own ooint and all you can do is try to rely on other people, then you already lost. So far my GL stands against all of your complaints, due to my successfully counter-arguing, so if you have nothing else to say, then yeah, epic fail bro.
>
>
> I’m not discussing that anymore. Moving on to other things.
>
> P.S. If you’ve seen what I’ve seen then the absence of an AR+GL weapon means I win :stuck_out_tongue:

Not necessarily, I never said it was going to be included, I just said it would work well.

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This has to be a troll.

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> 2533274820709871;124:
> This has to be a troll.

If you’re talking about me, all I can say is that I’m actually more of a troll hater than an actual troll. But if that’s what you want yourself to believe, oh well, not my problem.

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In every Halo game the automatic weapons would shred Spartans at close range. Combat Evolved was the worst, followed by Halo 4 and Reach. The way I see it - the Assault Rifle is fine how it is. Let’s face it, most of the full-auto weapons don’t require a large amount of sill to use, so buffing them would only result in better players taking advantage of this to kill players of lesser skill; it would be Armor-Lock and Promethean Vision all over again.

Precision players getting the kills on auto users can be explained Vis-à-vis the average user of an Assault Rifles–a person who lacks skill when compared to more dedicated Halo players.

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I agree. Mostly everyone uses the BR/DMR.

You could just throw all weapons away except for these 2 and 90% wouldn’t notice. I also don’t get the “AR doesn’t take skill” thing. You still need to aim and shoot. It’s a great weapon to use. And I wish the plasma rifle guns were better too. These are kinda worthless now unfortunately… :[

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> 2533274836465274;126:
> In every Halo game the automatic weapons would shred Spartans at close range. Combat Evolved was the worst, followed by Halo 5 and Reach. The way I see it - the Assault Rifle is fine how it is. Let’s face it, most of the full-auto weapons don’t require a large amount of sill to use, so buffing them would only result in better players taking advantage of this to kill players of lesser skill; it would be Armour-Lock and Promethean Vision all over again.
>
> Precision players getting the kills on auto users can be explained Vis-à-vis the average user of an Assault Rifles–a person who lacks skill when compared to more dedicated Halo players.

This is just as I said. Punishment for using the wrong weapon. Illusion of choice. You can use it but doing so means your bad. Yeah, uh. NO.

“Lol look at this noob lulzlulzlulz he’s not using a ‘skill’ weapon lololol he’s so bad he must be like 5 years old lololol.”

If that’s the case why dont we just remove all other weapons besides the BR and have only one map of a blank gray box and let the most “skilled” players prevail if that is what being skilled means. Dont give me that crap. Why should using one weapon over another not only punish you with death but brand you as unskilled? Why have that weapon at all if that is its only purpose? Why would the devs want to alienate people with a particular play style? Elitists ruin the fun.

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> 2533274836465274;126:
> In every Halo game the automatic weapons would shred Spartans at close range. Combat Evolved was the worst, followed by Halo 4 and Reach. The way I see it - the Assault Rifle is fine how it is. Let’s face it, most of the full-auto weapons don’t require a large amount of sill to use, so buffing them would only result in better players taking advantage of this to kill players of lesser skill; it would be Armor-Lock and Promethean Vision all over again.
>
> Precision players getting the kills on auto users can be explained Vis-à-vis the average user of an Assault Rifles–a person who lacks skill when compared to more dedicated Halo players.

My idea of replacing most of the spread/bloom with insane recoil would fix the issue of it being noobish.