Too Much Precision Weapon Focus in Past Halos

One thing that bothered me in every Halo game is that Precision Weapons, anything scoped and/or single or burst shot would always have huge advantage over fully automatic weapons. Now, I know that fully automatic weapons need to be balanced, but why is it that at close range a BR/DMR user can still kill an AR user quicker? Even if the AR user makes sure to burst-fire to keep the bullets on target, most of the time a competent BR/DMR user will outgun them. I feel like we are presented with the illusion of choice. So many weapons in the sandbox, but you are punished for not using the “pro” weapons. This is also a problem for anyone wanting to get their weapon commendations up because they’ll be outgunned so easily.

EDIT: 10/31/2014

My agenda is to encourage players to use the whole sandbox of weapons by making them unique and valid choices for their niche instead of sticking with the BR and DMR because they have been too good at all ranges and situations in past games.

I’d like to thank GNC Green for bringing up the idea to put recoil on the AR. While I think everyone agrees not to put a grenade launcher on it, using recoil as a balancing mechanic could work. Halo 3’s SMGs had a recoil effect and that did balance those weapons fairly nicely. I’d like to point out that every Halo game has had “bloom,” i.e. decreasing accuracy the longer a gun is fired, it is just that Halo Reach and Halo 4 were the only games to animate the reticule so you could see it.

The teaser for the Halo 5 beta shows an Assault Rifle with a 60 round clip. It will probably function similarly to the CE AR. Adding recoil to the AR is not entirely necessary if they get the bloom right, but to use recoil with limited bloom might be a good way to create a fun AR successor.

Any and all rapid fire weapons should beat ranged weapons in roughly 80% of engagements closer than 7-10 meters, and 100% of engagements closer than 5 meters. That’s what they are made for. In past Halos ranged weapons have consistently been able to beat automatic weapons at most ranges, and automatics could only beat them at point blank range. It shouldn’t matter if you are accurate with your shots, if you engage a bullet hose at close range you should lose. Engage at a further range if you want to keep your ranged weapon, or swap for something better suited to the task at hand.

The ranged weapons might work with a little recoil effect as well, and we could do away with the DMR’s randomness-inducing bloom. Making fine adjustments with the thumbstick to compensate for recoil is a better indicator of skill than timing shots for bloom in my opinion. If I recall correctly Halo 3’s plasma weapons did more shield damage and the projectile weapons did more damage against unshielded foes. I think they tried this in Halo 4 but the effect is so small it’s unnoticeable( or I could be wrong and it’s not there at all). I think bringing this effect back in a more noticeable way would be great to encourage using the different weapons in the sandbox and not sticking with the starting weapons. I think plasma weapons should knock shields down much faster than any other weapon.

As for Promethean weapons, I think a great way to encourage their use is to let their bullets partially phase through shields to deal a portion of damage to the body as well as the shields. Give us a health indicator like Reach, but since it’s Gen2 Armor with auto-healing systems the health would fully regenerate after a few seconds of avoiding fire. You could kill someone without popping their shields but if their shields are upyou can only headshot kill them when their health is critically low.

  • UNSC Weapons/Projectile Weapons: Lower damage vs shield, higher damage vs unsheilded- Covenant/Plasma Weapons: Higher Damage vs shield, lower damage vs unshielded- Promethean/Directed Energy Weapons: Equal Damage vs shielded/unshielded, small amount of damage penetrates shield. About 70/30 to 80/20 shield-to-body penetration rate.EDIT: 11/2/2014

A few other ideas occurred to me to make some more weapons more unique. Depending on if you like the idea for Directed Energy Weapons penetrating shields, then altering their projectile mechanics could work in place of, or in conjunction with it.

  • Storm Rifle: Keep it close to Halo 4’s version, but tweak the bloom so that it’s not so grossly innaccurate. Just a tad more accurate than it was in Halo 4. It should fire small plasma bolts at a high rate of fire. Plasma weapons should have no recoil effect.- Plasma Rifle: The classic single handed Plasma Rifle should have a lower rate of fire than the SR, but fire larger plasma bolts for more suppressive effect for controlling corridors and stairways. The large bolts would travel slower than the Repeater’s small ones and are easier to dodge at range.- Covenant Carbine: The rate of fire and damage should remain as hit has been before, either Halo 3 or Halo 4 versions depending on what works best, but the glowing stream left in the air by the projectiles should cause very slight damage to anyone that walks into it. The stream should either stay in the air no longer than it has in previous games, or only fractions of a second longer.- Lightrifle: Instead of three successive rounds fired while not scoped, it would simultaneously fire three rounds in a vertical line from three barrels. This makes it more different from the BR and encourages a different aiming technique. Directed energy weapons should have no recoil, either bloom or require different aiming techniques.- Suppressor: Instead of a high bloom effect with a rapid successive stream of bullets it would fire rapidly from multiple barrels simultaneously to make a wall of bullets that each are very weak on their own but tears people up when the full stream of bullets hit. This encourages it for suppression use as using it at longer range would waste a lot of bullets on a distant target, and makes it more different from the AR and SR.Let me know what you guys think.

No… Just. No.

An assault rifle takes no skill to land shots with, whereas a precision weapon does. That’s why precision weapons kill quicker.

There’s no reason why a fully automatic weapon shouldn’t come out on top in close range. I’m not saying make an AR sniper rifle, I’m saying automatics should dominate close range. They should have the fastest kill times when all bullets hit. As of Halo 4 I think they are only a mere fraction of a fraction of a second faster than BR/DMR under perfect circumstances. In real battle you are signing your own death warrant by using them. It’s ridiculous.

Halo has been successful when it focuses on precision weapons. People loved Halo1 for the pistol and Halo 2 and 3 for the BR. I think autos should be a good option at close range but a skillful use of a precision weapon should always prevail. Put emphasis on skill.

I’m all for precision weapons, but the spread of the plasma rifle has always bugged me…

My idea for a more skillful, balanced AR: http://halofanon.wikia.com/wiki/Halo:Combat_Evolved(NU)?cb=8309 (scroll down to weapons). Classic-style with a 60-round clip, but with little spread, rather its balancing factor would be high recoil (like the SMG’s recoil on steroids), so it would be more about recoil management and continuously tracking targets rather than charging and spraying n’ praying. It would kill faster than the BR but would be close to mid ranged focus (but somewhat longer range than previous ARs). It wouldn’t be a starting weapon, rather that would be the BR’s role. The AR would be more or less a reliable weapon for suppressive fire, very powerful with an insane rate of fire, it would have an insanely loud firing noise to intimidate foes. Essentially it would replace the SAW, and would function like an AR/SMG/SAW in one but neither overpowered nor underpowered. It would also have a grenade launcher that could send grenades farther and faster, utilized by pressing down the left trigger while holding the AR with the frags equipped. Overall perfect idea for a redesign IMO.

I also find that Halo’s weapon balance needs to be redone as a whole. I’d like to see each weapon made to be equally as effective as one another, each useful in their own distinct situation, this would increase skill (particularly strategy) with the game, and would make the game less of “grab the Rocket Launcher and mindlessly blast people with no skill required” Yes, it may take skill to get the Rocket Launcher, but once you accomplish that, you can simply blast away with no effort needed except at super long ranges. The game would be way more skillful if you had to use skill to control the weapons on the map AND use skill to be good with all those weapons. I’m not saying the 1sk aspect of certain weapons should be taken away, but if a weapon has to be 1sk, the other aspects of the weapon need to be balanced around it to compensate. The only skillful, truly competitive weapons right now are the precision weapons, that’s it. Even look at MLG, they take out almost the entire sandbox and leave like 5 weapons because the game is so terribly unbalanced (although Rockets are still noobish and unbalanced so it contradicts why they took out all the other weapons). It would be a far more interesting, fun, and competitive experience if every weapon had a skillful aspect to it.

> 2533274954188988;4:
> Halo has been successful when it focuses on precision weapons. People loved Halo1 for the pistol and Halo 2 and 3 for the BR. I think autos should be a good option at close range but a skillful use of a precision weapon should always prevail. Put emphasis on skill.

It doesn’t have to be that way if the core sandbox is properly balanced. One reason I like Halo CE is because most (if not all) of the weapons are pretty well balanced with one another. I think each of the weapons are too powerful, but at least one weapon doesn’t always dominate against another. The Rockets may still be a tad bit OP, but it’s not as much as a problem in future games, as in Halo CE you can usually get a quick 3sk with the Pistol before you actually get hit.

simple solution, remove the gimmicks i’ve been ranting about for the past 6-7 years.

if guns don’t have

  • bloom
  • spread
  • flinch

and players have uniform (1 version of, not multiple or random levels or variations off spawn or acquired ) mechanics such as

  • no sprint
  • no perks
  • no ordnance (global or personal)
  • no customizable loadouts
  • no armour abilities

or any other mechanic which doesn’t give a true representation of accuracy or game readability then you can take the values of

shots to kill
frames per shot / kill
aim assist
reticule size
ammo in clip
reload speed
bullet travel distance
(for projectiles) bullet travel speed
range effectiveness / aim assist distance
and other small things such as weapon gravity, weight and melee distance and melee frame effectiveness

and balance the weapons on what is now a much more linear translation of abilities where it isn’t DEPENDENT on a specific SITUATION where it can drastically alter either because of randomness or your position on the map, or your opponents or your current potential mobility

non static values AKA fluctuating, varying and highly situational values between player to player, are bad things to have as values unless they can be communicated between player to player, EG in team fortress to communicate players have a variety of values (this player has less health and more move speed etc) they use a class based system so that players still have static values, since this information can be read and then used by other players it is an acceptable mechanic.

then just up the range slightly, make it precise and adjust the other values accordingly

once this is in play, spawn the player with both the default precision weapon and automatic and there is weapon balance.

personally i’ll argue against loadouts too, though that isn’t what this thread is about so i’ll skip that debate as most of the reasons are in this post

> 2533274836395701;8:
> double post

I have absolutely no problem with that.

The problem is that the auto weapons have not done anything useful or interesting since CE. 80% of them have been the same close range only bullet hose with different window dressing.

They were held back even more in Halo 2/3 because of dual wielding. The precision weapons get greater use because they are inherently more versatile and because of that they can be used to dictate the pace of the game. The bullet hoses are only useful at one range and as a result they are forced to adjust to the actions of other players, this is the main reason SMG/AR starts have been so terrible in the past, they just can’t respond to a wide enough variety of threats from both ‘normal’ and power weapons.

Even good bullet hoses such as the CE AR or H4 auto weapons are inherently limited.

Complaining about precision weapons is a convenient way to avoid talking about the consistent failures of the auto weapon sandbox. If you really want auto weapons to get used more, they need a serious overhaul. Just fixing one or two weapons isn’t enough.

Auto weapons need to play differently. Just switching up the faction and minor stats does not a new weapon make. In CE the AR and the PR are very different weapons despite both of them being auto weapons. The CE AR was a close range bullet hose(which is fine when there is only one), but the CE PR? It had very low initial spread, noticeable shield damage, plasma stun, and even a headshot multiplier. Using a CE PR like a CE AR will get you killed, so will the reverse.

Compared to the CE incarnation, the H2/H3/Reach plasma rifles are all blue SMGs(as are the Repeater and storm rifle). Auto weapons will never be good starting weapons until they get some serious overhauls and even then a bullet hose will never make for a good starting weapon.

Its up to 343 to really put in the effort to make auto weapons more diverse and usable.

As a person who mainly uses the BR… I still completely agree with you.
The AR is Halo’s iconic weapon, yet, barely anyone uses it as you approach the higher ranks. Also, the whole “illusion of choice” concept…exactly as I would phrase it!

> 2533274809692665;12:
> As a person who mainly uses the BR… I still completely agree with you.
> The AR is Halo’s iconic weapon, yet, barely anyone uses it as you approach the higher ranks. Also, the whole “illusion of choice” concept…exactly as I would phrase it!

Agreed, i mean i get the skill needed to have BR win VS a AR makes sense, but i feel like the should have an advantage more than what is was in Halo 4. i get my -Yoink- handed to me a number of times for that. I eventually had to switch the BR cause nothing else worked, made me sad.

I have cause many a mayham with the AR

> 2533275027956921;6:
> My idea for a more skillful, balanced AR: http://halofanon.wikia.com/wiki/Halo:Combat_Evolved(NU)?cb=8309 (scroll down to weapons). Classic-style with a 60-round clip, but with little spread, rather its balancing factor would be high recoil (like the SMG’s recoil on steroids), so it would be more about recoil management and continuously tracking targets rather than charging and spraying n’ praying. It would kill faster than the BR but would be close to mid ranged focus (but somewhat longer range than previous ARs). It wouldn’t be a starting weapon, rather that would be the BR’s role. The AR would be more or less a reliable weapon for suppressive fire, very powerful with an insane rate of fire, it would have an insanely loud firing noise to intimidate foes. Essentially it would replace the SAW, and would function like an AR/SMG/SAW in one but neither overpowered nor underpowered. It would also have a grenade launcher that could send grenades farther and faster, utilized by pressing down the left trigger while holding the AR with the frags equipped. Overall perfect idea for a redesign IMO.
>
> I also find that Halo’s weapon balance needs to be redone as a whole. I’d like to see each weapon made to be equally as effective as one another, each useful in their own distinct situation, this would increase skill (particularly strategy) with the game, and would make the game less of “grab the Rocket Launcher and mindlessly blast people with no skill required” Yes, it may take skill to get the Rocket Launcher, but once you accomplish that, you can simply blast away with no effort needed except at super long ranges. The game would be way more skillful if you had to use skill to control the weapons on the map AND use skill to be good with all those weapons. I’m not saying the 1sk aspect of certain weapons should be taken away, but if a weapon has to be 1sk, the other aspects of the weapon need to be balanced around it to compensate. The only skillful, truly competitive weapons right now are the precision weapons, that’s it. Even look at MLG, they take out almost the entire sandbox and leave like 5 weapons because the game is so terribly unbalanced (although Rockets are still noobish and unbalanced so it contradicts why they took out all the other weapons). It would be a far more interesting, fun, and competitive experience if every weapon had a skillful aspect to it.

Bold part - No, a BIG no! you have any idea how powerful that gun would be. You just turned the AR to the all around best weapon in the game. Your version could kill close, mid and long range with ease. This would be bad as a starting weapon or map pick up. It’s just too powerful. Your first part with just the AR doesn’t sound too bad.

@OP I don’t disagree that auto’s get a bad wrap and they do take skill to use, just different kind of skill and they should destroy anyone up close for the most part. The SAW in Halo 4 is the most over power weapon in halo 4 and was a huge joke. It plus OS meant you were god. So I don’t think they should go that route with autos at all either as a starting weapon or map pick up.

I have np with an AR being able to beat say a BR up close with ease. It is hard to balance autos i’ll admit (at least I think so) but I actually thought this was one thing (one of only a few, lol) that halo 4 did right was the AR (the way it is now) There other two starting autos not so much…

> 2533274844683829;2:
> No… Just. No.
>
> An assault rifle takes no skill to land shots with, whereas a precision weapon does. That’s why precision weapons kill quicker.

Killing someone with an AR takes more skill than with a DRM or BR bro, that recoil is monstrous. You can kill 2 spartans with a single clip of a BR, whereas you can only kill 1 spartan with an AR. Its a much more challenging weapon.

I feel they got the balance between precision/automatics right in Halo 4. I consider myself a fairly competitive player but I still prefer the AR to be more useful in close quarters than the BR. There’s still some skill required to read the situation and know when to swap weapons.

> 2533274814181155;17:
> I feel they got the balance between precision/automatics right in Halo 4. I consider myself a fairly competitive player but I still prefer the AR to be more useful in close quarters than the BR. There’s still some skill required to read the situation and know when to swap weapons.

I think the damage per bullet was spot on in Halo 4’s Title Update, it’s mainly the bloom and accuracy that hurts their performance so much, which probably couldn’t be altered due to coding issues. I hope they make the coding in Halo 5 more flexible.

> 2533274815533909;15:
> > 2533275027956921;6:
> > My idea for a more skillful, balanced AR: http://halofanon.wikia.com/wiki/Halo:Combat_Evolved(NU)?cb=8309 (scroll down to weapons). Classic-style with a 60-round clip, but with little spread, rather its balancing factor would be high recoil (like the SMG’s recoil on steroids), so it would be more about recoil management and continuously tracking targets rather than charging and spraying n’ praying. It would kill faster than the BR but would be close to mid ranged focus (but somewhat longer range than previous ARs). It wouldn’t be a starting weapon, rather that would be the BR’s role. The AR would be more or less a reliable weapon for suppressive fire, very powerful with an insane rate of fire, it would have an insanely loud firing noise to intimidate foes. Essentially it would replace the SAW, and would function like an AR/SMG/SAW in one but neither overpowered nor underpowered. It would also have a grenade launcher that could send grenades farther and faster, utilized by pressing down the left trigger while holding the AR with the frags equipped. Overall perfect idea for a redesign IMO.
> >
> > I also find that Halo’s weapon balance needs to be redone as a whole. I’d like to see each weapon made to be equally as effective as one another, each useful in their own distinct situation, this would increase skill (particularly strategy) with the game, and would make the game less of “grab the Rocket Launcher and mindlessly blast people with no skill required” Yes, it may take skill to get the Rocket Launcher, but once you accomplish that, you can simply blast away with no effort needed except at super long ranges. The game would be way more skillful if you had to use skill to control the weapons on the map AND use skill to be good with all those weapons. I’m not saying the 1sk aspect of certain weapons should be taken away, but if a weapon has to be 1sk, the other aspects of the weapon need to be balanced around it to compensate. The only skillful, truly competitive weapons right now are the precision weapons, that’s it. Even look at MLG, they take out almost the entire sandbox and leave like 5 weapons because the game is so terribly unbalanced (although Rockets are still noobish and unbalanced so it contradicts why they took out all the other weapons). It would be a far more interesting, fun, and competitive experience if every weapon had a skillful aspect to it.
>
>
> Bold part - No, a BIG no! you have any idea how powerful that gun would be. You just turned the AR to the all around best weapon in the game. Your version could kill close, mid and long range with ease. This would be bad as a starting weapon or map pick up. It’s just too powerful. Your first part with just the AR doesn’t sound too bad.
>
> @OP I don’t disagree that auto’s get a bad wrap and they do take skill to use, just different kind of skill and they should destroy anyone up close for the most part. The SAW in Halo 4 is the most over power weapon in halo 4 and was a huge joke. It plus OS meant you were god. So I don’t think they should go that route with autos at all either as a starting weapon or map pick up.
>
> I have np with an AR being able to beat say a BR up close with ease. It is hard to balance autos i’ll admit (at least I think so) but I actually thought this was one thing (one of only a few, lol) that halo 4 did right was the AR (the way it is now) There other two starting autos not so much…

I can agree with you on that, if the GL was not properly balanced. I more or less just added that to make it more unique, but I can see what you mean. However, it could be balanced, though it would need special attention. If this AR is given just high enough recoil, I feel the GL could work. My idea is that the GL would be hard to hit with and would require great target leading, but if you DO manage to hit it, it would wipe the enemy’s shields. Think of the GL being like a trickshot-esque weapon, not something the intermediate-level player could master.

> 2533274836395701;8:
> then you can take the values of
>
> shots to kill
> frames per shot / kill
> aim assist
> reticule size
> ammo in clip
> reload speed
> bullet travel distance
> (for projectiles) bullet travel speed
> range effectiveness / aim assist distance
> and other small things such as weapon gravity, weight and melee distance and melee frame effectiveness

That’d be cool to see.