Title Update Discussion

Games Other Halo
661

> In a videogame, a system can be broken or even proper when considering only said system alone and in the singular and without the other functions it is meant to interact with.

so what you are saying is, because melees and grenades are both broken, its ok for the DMR to have a random factor when 1 person is spamming? you are saying its ok for the person who shoots better not to win 100% of the time because grenades and melees are both broken too? you are also saying that its ok for grenades to be mini nukes because shooting and melees are broken too? lets not forget you are also saying that its ok to remove the viability of shooting some of the time like no bleed melees factually do, and the reason is because shooting and grenades are both broken?

no. you dont use terrible mechanics to justify other terrible mechanics. sure this might work in a fighting game, but this isnt a fighting game. this is CHESS not CHECKERS. i havent played halo for 8+ year because i just like seeing things explode, and shoot guns, and run around as a cyborg. i played halo because it has always had a pretty large skill gap (even with halo 3, altho in halo 3 it was much, much less). i played halo because no matter how good i got, i could always see room for improvement. unfortunately, for me, the ‘room for improvement’ in halo reach is pretty narrow. instead of getting better at technical things like shooting and throwing grenades, on top of placement and tactics, and mind games and the like; i am forced to get better at AVOIDING shooting battles that are DMR vs DMR only, get better at AVOIDING mini nuke grenades, get better at AVOIDING no-bleed derp fest melee battles, and instead get better at placement and tactics because they matter infinitely more than shooting skill or grenade skill or melee skill, 3 things that even a halfwit moron can do in halo reach because its been dumbbed down so far. grenades are mini nukes, i dont have to have good aim at all to use them because the blast radius is HUGE, the damage is off the flippin charts (often times STRAIGHT UP KILLING PEOPLE), the fuse time is SUPER fast, and they STICK TO THE GROUND. because of all of these things grenades are both almost impossible to dodge, or avoid, and they are also SIMPLE to use. thats just one example of this dumbbed down halo gameplay, but there are many more. how about armor lock, for example? im very sure bungie was looking at the casual gamers when they decided to make this last 6 seconds because any even semi-competent game designer would tell you you would have to be straight up +1 chromosome limited to even CONSIDER that SIX SECONDS of INVINCIBILITY is EVEN REMOTELY BALANCED. so bungie snuck in an ‘easy button’ into their game, to get even the biggest of noobs a +80% survival rate for damn near every encounter that they dont eat a sniper bullet to the face in, so long as they… kinda… stay next to their team.

> It is very possible to have every system work as intended individually but once the whole thing starts to interact, you can see that it doesn’t.

you are right here, it was intended that bungie dumbbed down the gameplay so any casual soccer mom gamer could play, and thrive in the halo reach setting. and yea, when i see all of the mechanics individually i dont see them melding together in some awesome blend, i just see a terrible game.

> [halo 3 videos]

i mean, your videos are pretty cute, but you still cant provide EVEN ONE SINGLE REASON why its better for the person who shoots better in a DMR vs DMR battle 100% of the time, nor can you provide even 1 good reason why its better for the person who shoots better to not win a BR vs BR battle 100% of the time. no, really. ive asked this question to you about a million times, and every time you dodge it because it SLAPS YOUR ARGUMENT IN THE FACE. have you thought up even 1 reason why its better? surely youve had enough time to come up with a reason (i doubt it, because there isnt one).

662

> Again, the DMR is less random than the H3BR as it is more controllable.

oh really? because the added inconsistencies dont come from me using my DMR correctly, they come from THE OTHER PERSON FULL AUTO SPAMMING. seriously, how can you possibly tell me that i have more control over my DMR when the PRIMARY REASON that its a JOKE WEAPON is because IF ONE PERSON IS SPAMMING THE RESULT IS COMPLETELY RANDOM, or SPORRADIC, or the spammer gets LUCKY.

> Final note, I believe one should shoot centre-mass with either the BR or DMR until shields are downed. Then it’s a shot to the head. GREATLY increases chances of winning in any situation (ok 99%).

99%? laughable. it is nowhere even remotely close to 99%. if it was, this wouldnt happen in EVERY SINGLE GAME that i play in, and i would actually be playing the game. i am observant enough, and aware of whats going on enough, to have a good feel for how much spamming wins vs cadence, and it is not even close to 1%. its closer to 15-20% from what ive observed.

> Powerweapons aside, if I were to scrub the use of either the Pistol in CE and the BRs in H2 and H3, how happy would you be?

first of all are you saying that im the only one who cant use the pistol or BR?

how happy that i would be that 2 good guns are leaving? not very. but if they werent there in the first place i would have nothing to judge them on.

> How fast, consistent and easy would Halo feel to you if you could not use the weapons you say Halo gives a choice to use in the first place?

it would still be fast, and consistent. i dont know about ‘easy’, iuno where you got that from. i remember using the assault rifle quite thoroughly in my halo CE days, to great success too, just like i enjoyed embarrassing kids with the SMG in halo 2. i dont need the pistol, or BR, or the DMR to succeed, or be consistent. heck, without the DMR the game is actually MORE consistent because the person who shoots better in AR vs AR battles wins 100% of the time, same with pistol vs pistol battles in halo reach. the pistol in reach is actually incredibly more consistent in that way, far more than the spamrifle is. you cant just mash your R trigger and hope to get kills with the pistol, that doesnt work AT ALL (cept for close range). you have to actually pace your pistol if you want to kill anyone with it, thats exactly how the DMR should be. heck, even take the exact same bloom mechanics from the pistol and apply them to the DMR and the game would be 10x better in my opinion, and MUCH better in the eyes of any even slightly competitive gamer who has some semblance of an idea whats going on.

> I know the answer because you feel Halo: Reach has no consistent weapon.

never said that. i said the DMR is inconsistent when paired against another DMR (which is terrible because the DMR is a primary weapon spawn for competitive games).

> yet in the previous Halos, you had a choice because 1 weapon (non-power) was not random when compared to the others.

um… what? what weapons had random factors in them in halo 1, 2, and 3 aside from the outcome of pistol vs pistol battles if 1 person was pulse firing and the other person was holding down the trigger, and BR spread? no idea what you are talking about here.

> As far as a “spawning” weapon being to unpredictable vs itself.

so you are saying its not a problem because you can change the weapon you spawn with? what!? how does changing what weapon you spawn with fix DMR vs DMR encounters AT ALL? lol. and, as far as changing settings go, for damage and resistance and melees, its impossible to do so without completely devastating the sandbox in its entirety. also, 2 melees is core to halo, unfortunately for all of us, the clunky 3 melee kill is better than the 2 melee kill because of no bleed melees.

so, again, if you wanna answer a question of mine, please answer this one:

why is it BETTER for the person who shoots better in a 1v1 of the same weapon to not win 100% of the time?

please give 1 example for why its BETTER this way (at least), but more is better.

the last time you ‘answered’ this question you didnt even reference the question in the least, or make it seem like you had any idea what the question was in the first place. please try to do better this time.

663

You’ve been more than enough help, thank you :smiley:

664

> Yeah, its not an “Ace in the hole” if everybody has access to it. Grenades are a huge problem in this game because you can’t avoid them without armor lock, so armor lock becomes necessary for survival. You can’t jump over them like you could in Halo 3 because the blast radius gets that high.

It’s an ace in the hole in the sense that I don’t know what you have. When I engage you in combat, you could have evade, sprint, camo etc. So when I engage you in combat, I have to think about what possible AA you could unleash to change the battle.

I can’t stand Armor Lock. I’d be fine if they took it out. Like I said in a previous post though, I’d be fine if they turned down the grenades. I’m all for making the game more enjoyable for you guys. I’m fine with change and if they said “We’re making the grenades less powerful” I’d be content.

I hope 343 can find that happy medium that makes casual and competitive players both happy. I consider myself a casual competitor. I like to have fun by just running around in a vehicle with some friends, but I also like to play intense matches where it’s 49-48 and you have to score 2 points to win.

665

That sounds more reasonable than some other posts. A compromise is probably on the way, if anything is. But I just don’t know if it would be enough to get me to play matchmaking again. I’ve had great experiences from Halo 2 all the way through 3 and now this. This is just not Halo for me.

Honestly guys, why the hate on Halo 3? Its not THAT different from Halo 2. Am I missing something?

666

If you’ve been reading my posts you’d know I don’t think Reach is ‘broken’. Game elements are functioning the way they were designed to function. It’s just different from past Halos’ and I believe a lot of you people saying it’s “broken” are trying to play it the way you’d play Halo 3 or 2. Anyway, I found this video. I don’t believe it’s a real Bungie dev, regardless, it’s funny.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wx-032I5Z80

667

I haven’t finished the video yet, but I think I know what Phantom’s last words are…lol

Very funny video. But really, nothing not like Grandma’s Boy? I’m sure a moment or 2 can be seen around the office. I bet a few longs nights had a few testers and programmers playing to black screens.

668

> If you’ve been reading my posts you’d know I don’t think Reach is ‘broken’. Game elements are functioning the way they were designed to function. It’s just different from past Halos’ and I believe a lot of you people saying it’s “broken” are trying to play it the way you’d play Halo 3 or 2. Anyway, I found this video. I don’t believe it’s a real Bungie dev, regardless, it’s funny.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wx-032I5Z80

that video is a nice attempt at humor, but it just fails.

the random forum-goer is depicted here as a 16 year old child who can still see that there are broken mechanics that are in need of fixing.

he complains “i will pace my shots into a guy and he spams 5 shots into me and im dead”

to which the bungie employee responds “so because you havent MASTERED one of the weapons”

pretty hilarious. the forum-goer depicts a story of how he is trying to control his shots with pacing, just like bloom intends you to do (or did bungie put bloom in to watch people full auto spam with their fully bloomed reticule? LOL), and he gets beat by someone full auto spamming and hitting the first 5 shots, to which he calls the game broken, and rightly so.

the rebuttal from the bungie employee is ‘you havent mastered one of the weapons’, which is basically hilarious, and makes me wonder if the person who made this video has even the slightest idea whats going on in the first place because there is literally no amount of flawless cadence, and perfect accuracy, even with the first shot, that can help you beat the person making absolutely no attempt at using the gun correctly 100% of the time, which literally makes no sense whatsoever.

i’d say my description of something that is ‘broken’ would be something that doesnt function as intended 100% of the time. did bungie really intend on the better shooter to not win 100% of the time in halo reach? i mean, sure, when they tested the game i bet everyone was instructed on the proper way to use the weapon, by using cadence, and trying to throttle your bloom; but thats not how the game works. in halo reach, there are quite a few people who make no attempt at throttling their rate of fire, and because of this, every 1v1 DMR battle that they are a part of becomes completely sporadic in its outcome, even if the person who is pacing gets the first shot, has flawless cadence, and perfect accuracy. whats more is, if the person who is pacing misses EVEN ONE SINGLE BULLET the chances for the spammer to win go up SUBSTANTIALLY.

there literally isnt one single reason why the person who shoots better in a 1v1 DMR battle should win any less than 100% of the time. maybe if there was EVEN ONE reason why it functioned this way it would be acceptable, but there isnt. heck, you want a good bloom algorithm look no further than the pistol in halo reach. the pistol will not let a spammer win AT ALL at medium close - long range, and thats how it should be.

pretty sad that bungie implements bloom to attempt to throttle players shooting to let them fire differently for different situations, but in doing so they end up making every single DMR battle that 1 person is spamming sporadic and random.

669

These are some ideas I think Halo Reach will benefit from it:

-The bloom on the DMR should be modified to make the shots go near the border of the circle, instead of any place in it. The DMR battles would be less random and the game would be more balanced, like iQ ll Urza posted.

-A “join in session” system for the social playlists, like Team Slayer, Invasion or Big Team Battle.

-If almost all the people outside of Invasion are using the Armor Lock, it should be revised or removed. I suppose this is adressed with the Squad Slayer playlist tomorrow, but still…

-Make your rank in Arena visible in other playlists. If the Arena system is supposed to take in account all the Reach players, make them want to play it.

-The game needs to reward players doing something in the match, not for their presence in it. Reward players with more credits for victories and commendations, not for the lenght of the match.

-Less playlists, but this is more preference than an actual benefit for the game.

What do you think about this?

670

Sure bloom works as intended. It gives a chance to the not so skilled players to kill a good player in under 2 seconds, but that’s not how a real bloom system should work, the last time I checked, bloom was about going always for accuracy and punishing players that spam like mad. Because of that, bloom should get a patch in the title update. Bloom patch idea.

The pistol and the NR should get that same system too, it won’t make much difference, just that pacing will be rewarded more.

Melee should go back to melee bleedtrough, or then 75% damage as default, both system will promote less sprinting for the double pummel and more shooting in a FPS.

For Armor Lock:

Take out plama grenade shedding.
Take out frosting.
No shields or health can get recharged inside armor lock.

Grenades:
10% less damage and a bit smaller blast radius. They’ll still be deadly if used right.

Everything will be more enjoyable in Halo Reach and players will be comming back.

671

Just like to point out the people who want change are not a minority.

I have had this screen shot http://www.bungie.net/Stats/Reach/FileDetails.aspx?fid=17247504&player=coca%20mola In my file share for 4 days telling people to recommend or download if they agree reach needs a title update.

4 days now it’s on the first page of most recommended and second page of most downloaded. So as you can see it’s not just a small population.

672

> Just like to point out the people who want change are not a minority.
>
> I have had this screen shot http://www.bungie.net/Stats/Reach/FileDetails.aspx?fid=17247504&player=coca%20mola In my file share for 4 days telling people to recommend or download if they agree reach needs a title update.
>
> 4 days now it’s on the first page of most recommended and second page of most downloaded. So as you can see it’s not just a small population.

That’s a good idea I will have to pick that up.

I strongly agree on bloom fixes, but I think the problem is how it behaves in a P2P system. This makes the bloom system so frustrating because you literally have to change your cadence every freaking game. Some games you spam like a warrior and everything hits. Some games you have to time everything even close range because blooms being limited.

It may not be bloom, it may be P2P issues, however its clear the bloom system on the DMR does not work in this environment. Also I have had no issues with the NR regardless of connection which is strange because the NR is not hitscan. Am I missing something? Can some video game nerd clear this up?

673

> Just like to point out the people who want change are not a minority.
>
> I have had this screen shot http://www.bungie.net/Stats/Reach/FileDetails.aspx?fid=17247504&player=coca%20mola In my file share for 4 days telling people to recommend or download if they agree reach needs a title update.
>
> 4 days now it’s on the first page of most recommended and second page of most downloaded. So as you can see it’s not just a small population.

Please add some context. It says 354 downloads.

674

Ok it’s on the front page of most recommended ( Near the bottom which is awesome to say it’s 4 days old), they do not count as downloads.

Context do this.

1.File Browser
2.Most Recommended
3.???
4.Profit

675

> Sure bloom works as intended. It gives a chance to the not so skilled players to kill a good player in under 2 seconds, but that’s not how a real bloom system should work, the last time I checked, bloom was about going always for accuracy and punishing players that spam like mad. Because of that, bloom should get a patch in the title update. Bloom patch idea.
>
> The pistol and the NR should get that same system too, it won’t make much difference, just that pacing will be rewarded more.
>
> Melee should go back to melee bleedtrough, or then 75% damage as default, both system will promote less sprinting for the double pummel and more shooting in a FPS.
>
> For Armor Lock:
>
> Take out plama grenade shedding.
> Take out frosting.
> No shields or health can get recharged inside armor lock.
>
> Grenades:
> 10% less damage and a bit smaller blast radius. They’ll still be deadly if used right.
>
>
> Everything will be more enjoyable in Halo Reach and players will be comming back.

ehh. dont change the pistol bloom algorithm. its fine as it is. actually, if anything, you could easily just use the pistol algorithm in reach for the DMR and the needle rifle too.

the pistol algorithm works as intended, if you start spamming like a noob, you lose, and thats how it should be.

676

> These are some ideas I think Halo Reach will benefit from it:
>
> -The bloom on the DMR should be modified to make the shots go near the border of the circle, instead of any place in it. The DMR battles would be less random and the game would be more balanced, like iQ ll Urza posted.
>
> -A “join in session” system for the social playlists, like Team Slayer, Invasion or Big Team Battle.
>
> -If almost all the people outside of Invasion are using the Armor Lock, it should be revised or removed. I suppose this is adressed with the Squad Slayer playlist tomorrow, but still…
>
> -Make your rank in Arena visible in other playlists. If the Arena system is supposed to take in account all the Reach players, make them want to play it.
>
> -The game needs to reward players doing something in the match, not for their presence in it. Reward players with more credits for victories and commendations, not for the lenght of the match.
>
> -Less playlists, but this is more preference than an actual benefit for the game.
>
>
> What do you think about this?

the DMR idea to have shots land on the outer ring of the circle is awesome. fragtality has it right here, i believe.

the join in progress idea could be cool, but it would take some serious re-coding and stuff to make work i’d bet, and it also might cause problems like if someone dips out so their better friend can replace their spot to beat a team, etc.

armor lock absolutely needs to be tweaked, or just removed from every single playlist outside of big team games. it makes sense in big team games because there is usually 1 person in the distance that can snipe you when the duration runs out, so its not that big of a problem in those playlists having more than 9 people playing.

having rank visible in other playlists is a kinda cool idea i’d say. it would certainly make more players want to play it so they could show off their own rank.

i also agree that you should get a reward for WINNING games. really have no idea why you dont get extra credits for actually winning the game lol.

and less playlists would be another good idea i’d say. the thing about less playlists is, theres probably going to be a lot better change you get paired up with people who are about your skill level. more people in individual playlists will always be a good thing.

ideally i could see something like

Ranked
-team slayer
-team objective
-MLG
-team classic

Non-Ranked
-social slayer
-social objective (more action sack-esque)
-multi team
-team snipers
-big team battle
-invasion

working quite well (i probably forgot some tho XD)

677

> > Just like to point out the people who want change are not a minority.
> >
> > I have had this screen shot http://www.bungie.net/Stats/Reach/FileDetails.aspx?fid=17247504&player=coca%20mola In my file share for 4 days telling people to recommend or download if they agree reach needs a title update.
> >
> > 4 days now it’s on the first page of most recommended and second page of most downloaded. So as you can see it’s not just a small population.
>
> Please add some context. It says 354 downloads.

Just like to add it’s now over 1000 downloads too. Pritty much over night.

678

> > > Just like to point out the people who want change are not a minority.
> > >
> > > I have had this screen shot http://www.bungie.net/Stats/Reach/FileDetails.aspx?fid=17247504&player=coca%20mola In my file share for 4 days telling people to recommend or download if they agree reach needs a title update.
> > >
> > > 4 days now it’s on the first page of most recommended and second page of most downloaded. So as you can see it’s not just a small population.
> >
> > Please add some context. It says 354 downloads.
>
> Just like to add it’s now over 1000 downloads too. Pritty much over night.

they (bungie now, or 343 later) should really have a little poll pop up before you play halo.

poll questions would be

1.) if you shoot better than someone do you want to win 100% of the time, or less than 100% of the time?

2.) do you want grenades nerfed a little bit (they are kinda mini nukes now yanno :D)?

3.) do you want armor abilities to be tweaked so they add replay value to the game, rather than make it frustrating?

4.) do you want us to remove no-bleed melees so you can actually shoot people to get ahead in melee battles 100% of the time?

679

Agreed i mean if that screenshot isn’t showing what people think i don’t know. Pretty much overnight it’s on the front page of most downloaded and recomended.

680

> Agreed i mean if that screenshot isn’t showing what people think i don’t know. Pretty much overnight it’s on the front page of most downloaded and recomended.

People agreeing that the game needs an update. I love Reach. I think it has the best halo multiplayer yet and I think it needs an update. That is already common knowledge. The question is what needs updating. And in response to bloom, if you shoot better, you will win. 100% of the time. Knowing when to pace, what rythym to use, and when to spam is a big part of learning each weapon in this game. As opposed to always spamming which was the case in the past. Yes, bloom needs a bit of adjusting, but it does not favor less skilled players. It adds a new layer to the skills each player will have to learn.