I will not lock this thread. I will, however, issue bans for not following the forum rules and guidelines. Let’s stay on-topic from here on out so that doesn’t happen. Thanks!
> What needs fixed, exactly?
>
> Bloom and Armour Lock aren’t “broken” to start with. It’s just your perception of them.
Well, Juggernaut is broken, and VIP is non-existent. Fix/Re-add those for starters.
That’s all that I can think of that is actually ‘broken’ per se. However, there are some changes I would like to see take place. (Elephant anyone?)
I got a clip rendered just to give an example of how bloom rewards spamming and gives you lucky kills.
This clip is me playing against OP (who is better than me at Halo). He got my shields down so I turned around and mashed the trigger in an attempt to just weaken his shields so I could kill him when I respawned. I did not expect to get a headshot in 5 shots, max bloom.
http://www.bungie.net/stats/reach/filedetails.aspx?fid=16992198&player=Katto+Ryn
> I will not lock this thread. I will, however, issue bans for not following the forum rules and guidelines. Let’s stay on-topic from here on out so that doesn’t happen. Thanks!
Thanks, it’s good to see that you support feedback threads.
> I got a clip rendered just to give an example of how bloom rewards spamming and gives you lucky kills.
>
> This clip is me playing against OP (who is better than me at Halo). He got my shields down so I turned around and mashed the trigger in an attempt to just weaken his shields so I could kill him when I respawned. I did not expect to get a headshot in 5 shots, max bloom.
>
> http://www.bungie.net/stats/reach/filedetails.aspx?fid=16992198&player=Katto+Ryn
Oh my… what solid evidence. You’re in the Octagon, at short-range, have respawns at instant and managed to find one moment, that is being claimed that because it can happen, even though the chances are slim, but that it can happen, the system is broken.
The worst part is, I can easily see that he missed 3 shots in a row on you and you landed all 5. His third last shot seemed to miss you because his reaction time in tracking you was late. His middle shot may have missed due to bloom. His last shot is way to his left (your right). That is the reason you won.
And what a croc of bull, attempting to use the Octagon as means of testing overall FPS skill. Of course his ability to aim better than you isn’t a factor when both of you are using the DMR at short-range and with no cover. At that range, the Pistol or AR should be the two weapons you guys are using on each other to test your reticle tracking and bloom control abilities.
Bungie designing the mechanics this way is irrelevent. The fact is a huge negative response has resulted do to mechanics being unbalanced/annoying(in the opinion of MANY players).
I get massive feedback in the forums AND in the game all aimed towards the same issues.
we are not arguing to REMOVE said mechanics, stop freaking out. Nobody wants Halo 3 again. All we want is a bloom system on the DMR that works.
We probably do want AL flushed lol but I am sure we would settle for at least a few tweaks to make it less of a powerhouse.
Saying we should just adapt is not progress, and is not helping us compete with COD or even previous Halo games.
More of us would probably embrace these changs much more if we could even get feedback as to why things were made the way they were.
http://www.bungie.net/News/content.aspx?type=topnews&link=BWU_050710
and
http://www.bungie.net/News/content.aspx?type=topnews&cid=26366
Should get you started. About a year ago. Don’t let the part where they say “We should start off by making it very clear that Halo: Reach is not Halo 3. There are some distinct and fundamental differences that you’ll definitely need to account for, both straight out of the gate and over the long haul. These are differences you shouldn’t expect to see changed. They are, as we say, by design.” fool you into thinking they never gave us any feedback into their designing.
> http://www.bungie.net/News/content.aspx?type=topnews&link=BWU_050710
> and
> http://www.bungie.net/News/content.aspx?type=topnews&cid=26366
>
> Should get you started. About a year ago. Don’t let the part where they say “We should start off by making it very clear that Halo: Reach is not Halo 3. There are some distinct and fundamental differences that you’ll definitely need to account for, both straight out of the gate and over the long haul. These are differences you shouldn’t expect to see changed. They are, as we say, by design.” fool you into thinking they never gave us any feedback into their designing.
All that’s the pre-release. It does nothing to address in detail the post release mayhem that followed ( in form of quickly dropping pops and forum rage).
Again I will type slower n o b o d y c a r e s t h a t i t i s d i f f e r e n t. We want a bloom system that rewards pacing. Again I understand that you think they purposely made spamming a necessity at close ranges, well I am giving them credit for being smarter than including such a random unrewarding feature into a precision weapon. Further more spamming is NOOOOTTTTTTTTTT optimal in the other precision weapons leading me to believe this is a flop.
You defend the game because you like it however you are not able to even provide any real reasons as to why these mechanics ARE acceptable or even optimal. All I conclude from you is that you believe " game developers are gods, who are we to question???" These are feedback forums, not alters for worship lol.
First, it’s not so much a defending of the game as it is shooting down fallacies and false facts.
Second, quickly dropping populations? You care little of quality in gaming if you are concerned mostly with popularity. The 2 are not interchangeable and why using CoD as a reference of game-quality as competition is a very bad example.
> All that’s the pre-release. It does nothing to address in detail the post release mayhem that followed ( in form of quickly dropping pops and forum rage).
Forum rage??? It’s been there since Halo2. They’re called the vocal minority.
> Again I will type slower n o b o d y c a r e s t h a t i t i s d i f f e r e n t.
Obviously they do. A simple scanning of the previous posts will show that. A quick scanning of the topics created outside of this one will show it. This is not an opinion.
> I’m a minority in this thread reminding you guys how the rest of the community ACTUALLY feels about these issues.
really? what proof do you have that
1.) the forums have any correlation between the minority and the majority on issues that they havent spoken out about
2.) we are the minority
from what ive seen / heard, damn near every single one of my halo buddies has simply stopped playing this game because its so terrible when compared to other halo games.
> A 100% chance of something having the same result, is not random.
except, even if you have the first shot, and flawless cadence, and perfect accuracy, you can still be beat by someone full auto spamming. heck, even you stated that its a ‘static 24%’ that a spammer would beat a pacer. please give me, and all of us ONE GOOD REASON for this to be 24% that spamming would win, even tho they are clearly misusing the weapon because there is a 76% chance if they used it the other way, over something like MAYBE 2% that spamming would win. when you look at it that way, it doesnt make even the slightest bit of sense. ive said it a million times, BLOOM IS A GOOD IDEA to add both SKILL GAP and DEPTH to halo, unfortunately, because of how poorly it was implemented, it does neither. most people, from what ive heard, want a halo game where, in shooting the DMR, the person who shoots better wins. thats not how it is all the time, and it literally could not be more unintuitive because of it.
and seriously, can you provide even one good reason why its better for it to be 24% that spamming would win, over 0%? i really doubt you can, but, by all means, give us your best shot.
> The real winner will always be the player with the most skill. They understand how and when to use their bloom, ALL the time. He know’s when to spam, and when not to. Skill is VERY much at work here, and the “more skillful” player will spam when it’s appropriate to do so, and they will do it faster.
yes, good players know when to spam and when not to. unfortunately for all of us, spamming is actually optimal until you hit the first 4 shots at the vast majority of range encounters in halo reach, effectively making almost every single encounter completely unreliable, and inconsistent, regardless of either players individual shooting skill.
> YOU see it as failed mechanics, the rest of the community understands how this works and uses it to their advantage against people like you who don’t understand them.
i think you misunderstand. i dont play this game because its bad, not because i dont understand whats going on. if you were to look at my stats you would quickly see that i am basically amazing at halo reach (and every halo game for that matter). this being said, its pretty obvious that the mechanics are -Yoink!- when you look at them from a logical standpoint.
> Now you’re quoting me out of context, you had asked my preference. The ‘bloom algorithm’ makes sense and adds to the depth of the game.
a 24% chance that your mechanics fail is not adding depth, thats adding fail. maybe it adds depth 76% of the time, but the rest of the time its just added fail.
> NO NO NO NO NO, Just like you want to reply on the BR for everything, you want to rely on shooting for just everything. That is NOT Halo. Has not been, and by my wishes, never will be. The mechanic exists to encourage sandbox usage and combos.
again, i never said i want the game to be all about shooting. heck, even i think the game would benefit if things like the AR were more effective in close range than the DMR, but thats really not the case. i just want the DMR to function as intended 100% of the time (meaning i want DMR battles to be whomever shoots better -> WINS, EVERY TIME).
> I can’t grasp your logic because it’s:
> A.) Based on your subjective opinion
> B.) Against what the community wants
> C.) More of the same BS that was in H2 and H3
> D.) Lacks any type of relevant facts
A.) its my opinion that 24% that spamming wins is bad. who, exactly, is looking at the times where spamming wins vs their perfect cadence, and flawless aim, and thinks to themselves “WOW THIS GAME IS GREAT! I WISH I COULD GET BEAT BY SPAMMING MORE OFTEN!”. very few people think this way from what ive heard and seen.
B.) says you. you have no proof to back your claim that we are the minority in wanting things fixed / changed / tweaked.
C.) whats this BS that you are talking about? skill winning shooting encounters 100% of the time? yea, thats really BS for you lol.
D.) the only fact im using is the one that came out of your mouth. spamming wins, regardless of how good your shooting is. even if its 3% or 24%, it doesnt matter in the least because the % here is the % that the games mechanics FAIL.
> Guywiired:
> MAYBE, but because every player has the same mechanic, the more skillful player will win.
will win, only 76% of the time. again, why is this better to be 76% instead of 100%?
> I’ve actually always wondered HOW bleed-though made any sense at all. Either your shield is working, or it isn’t. Bleed-through never made sense to me.
it doesnt matter if they make sense or not, so long as they actually WORK. no bleed melees factually remove the viability of shooting from some close combat situations. it is not better for this viability of shooting to be thrown out the window (at least i cant think of a reason why its better, maybe you can). at least with bleeding melees you could shoot for an advantage in your battle 100% of the time, unlike halo reach where sometimes it simply isnt viable to shoot at all to come out ahead, or with an advantage.
> Again, the more skillful player knows when to spam, and because bloom effects every player the same, the more skillful player will always win.
always win, except for that 24% where they lose (by your fact). the more skillful player DOES NOT WIN 100% of the time in shooting only battles with DMR vs DMR (thats a fact).
Here are my main questions for you guys (feel free to answer these questions anyone):
-can you provide even one good reason why its better for it to be 24% that spamming would win over pacing, over 0% (or less %)?
-can you provide even one good reason why its ok to lose the viability of shooting to come out ahead in close combat =melee= situations like no-bleed melees factually do?
> Again I will type slower n o b o d y c a r e s t h a t i t i s d i f f e r e n t.
im with pharm. the problem isnt that things are different, its that they are worse.
343 has had the reigns in Reach for how long now? The game has been out since September and besides playlists nothing has changed. What’s the problem here? I know 343 is working on a new game but damn, how long would it really take to address some of the communitys repeated requests? A week?
When did 343 get handed Reach? Bungie never announced the switch and is currently the developer tweaking playlists? Show me a link to your claim.
> When did 343 get handed Reach? Bungie never announced the switch and is currently the developer tweaking playlists? Show me a link to your claim.
it was in a bungie weekly update…
and OP they havent fully swiched yet but its in progress so they may
> But of course. You should have seen me rant back when Halo2 came out. I was not happy with any of the changes made to help make Halo more accessible. But like all things, you can only surprise me once. And since my expectations ruined the sequel, not Bungie, I got over it and grew just a little more for understanding it.
But there is nothing to understand. Bloom interferes. Armor lock stops the fight. Where slower except for one perk that lets us go fast. Grenades are the primary weapon and everyone can throw a grenade with no skill involved. Theres no rank system based on skill. The maps are poor.
Whats to understand? It makes no sense for a good game to use mechanics such as this. By itself, yes, Reach would be good. But in a series of games that have been great, its terrible.
> I’m a minority in this thread reminding you guys how the rest of the community ACTUALLY feels about these issues.
You do not represent the rest of the community. You just like the game as it is and your creating imaginary support.
And the bloom mechanic is broken. Horribly.
> I got a clip rendered just to give an example of how bloom rewards spamming and gives you lucky kills.
>
> This clip is me playing against OP (who is better than me at Halo). He got my shields down so I turned around and mashed the trigger in an attempt to just weaken his shields so I could kill him when I respawned. I did not expect to get a headshot in 5 shots, max bloom.
>
> http://www.bungie.net/stats/reach/filedetails.aspx?fid=16992198&player=Katto+Ryn
This really just shows who was better, and merely that the situation was probably slightly in your favor. Though it’s hard to tell with such a restricted view of it all.
Anyway it shows you dieing in the beginning, possibly from the guy you kill later. It is certainly possible that you damaged him before you died. Which would make sense seeing as how you missed the first shot but landed the last four, from what I could tell. Which the last four did all hit because the reticule was red, and he filled most if not all of it up. Now yes the other guy did get you to no shields first but guess what? He was spamming and couple that with his aiming failed to get the last shot, having missed twice. Granted you did get the headshot, and it was lucky. The thing is you got it because you where aiming properly, pacing is another matter.
This also just exemplifies how black and white everyone makes this out to be. Spamming and pacing are both extremes and anything in between can be considered either or. That said I realize that you’re spamming more in some cases while pacing more in others. Regardless it all works as it should. Do things need to be changed to better fit what was intended? Maybe I can’t say really, and neither can anyone else. We only have vague ideas of what should be. Unless of course there’s something from bungie or whoever that said what it was meant to be.
Also at the end of the day only cold hard math is going to solve balancing issues, we don’t have that, and so saying things are facts is rather misguided.
> > I got a clip rendered just to give an example of how bloom rewards spamming and gives you lucky kills.
> >
> > This clip is me playing against OP (who is better than me at Halo). He got my shields down so I turned around and mashed the trigger in an attempt to just weaken his shields so I could kill him when I respawned. I did not expect to get a headshot in 5 shots, max bloom.
> >
> > http://www.bungie.net/stats/reach/filedetails.aspx?fid=16992198&player=Katto+Ryn
>
> This really just shows who was better, and merely that the situation was probably slightly in your favor. Though it’s hard to tell with such a restricted view of it all.
>
> Anyway it shows you dieing in the beginning, possibly from the guy you kill later. It is certainly possible that you damaged him before you died. Which would make sense seeing as how you missed the first shot but landed the last four, from what I could tell. Which the last four did all hit because the reticule was red, and he filled most if not all of it up. Now yes the other guy did get you to no shields first but guess what? He was spamming and couple that with his aiming failed to get the last shot, having missed twice. Granted you did get the headshot, and it was lucky. The thing is you got it because you where aiming properly, pacing is another matter.
>
> This also just exemplifies how black and white everyone makes this out to be. Spamming and pacing are both extremes and anything in between can be considered either or. That said I realize that you’re spamming more in some cases while pacing more in others. Regardless it all works as it should. Do things need to be changed to better fit what was intended? Maybe I can’t say really, and neither can anyone else. We only have vague ideas of what should be. Unless of course there’s something from bungie or whoever that said what it was meant to be.
>
> Also at the end of the day only cold hard math is going to solve balancing issues, we don’t have that, and so saying things are facts is rather misguided.
when most people talk about spamming they mean full auto spamming. pacing is everything else.
also, most people just want bloom to function as the person who shoots better in that encounter wins the encounter. that is not the case in halo reach, when clearly it should be (from the standpoint of damn near every single competitive player, or power gamer). when the better technical shooter doesnt win 1v1 DMR-only encounters 100% of the time, the mechanic isnt working as it should.
even the nay-sayers have said that spamming wins vs pacing ‘only’ 24% of the time. 2 things here
1.) so, when someone who doesnt know what they are doing tries this mechanic they will fail 76% of the time? clearly the % chance that spamming beats pacing doesnt help ANYONE. i certainly cant think of a single person who benefits from this added luck factor, can you?
and
2.) why is it better for the % chance to be 24% over… say… MAYBE 1-2% (if not 0%)?
bloom could easily be fixed to function as the person who shoots better wins the encounter 100% of the time (or damn near 100%), its just a matter of 343 doing it.
> when most people talk about spamming they mean full auto spamming. pacing is everything else.
Okay well when you describe it like that it really just sounds insignificant. Which makes sense to me, and I’d pretty much agree with. Regardless I’d ask why it’s so important when it’s really not far from pacing at all, from what you just said. Also if spamming is the proper way to go in the situation it can really just be seen as pacing. It’s rather silly to tell me or anyone else that we’re not doing it right when the reticule covers you. That’s the point of the weapon.
> also, most people just want bloom to function as the person who shoots better in that encounter wins the encounter. that is not the case in halo reach, when clearly it should be (from the standpoint of damn near every single competitive player, or power gamer). when the better technical shooter doesn’t win 1v1 DMR-only encounters 100% of the time, the mechanic isnt working as it should.
>
> even the nay-sayers have said that spamming wins vs pacing ‘only’ 24% of the time.
Haven’t really seen any proof of that considering how I just described katto’s video. Sure there’s a possibility for it, but that doesn’t mean all of the time. Further more those numbers are usually done in a controlled situation. Something that really never happens in an actual game. When you include other factors it becomes more and more about the better player. Sure there’s still a chance for them to be completely equal but the chance is next to none.
> 2 things here
>
> 1.) so, when someone who doesn’t know what they are doing tries this mechanic they will fail 76% of the time? clearly the % chance that spamming beats pacing doesn’t help ANYONE. i certainly cant think of a single person who benefits from this added luck factor, can you?
>
> and
>
> 2.) why is it better for the % chance to be 24% over… say… MAYBE 1-2% (if not 0%)?
>
> bloom could easily be fixed to function as the person who shoots better wins the encounter 100% of the time (or damn near 100%), its just a matter of 343 doing it.
Again this would be true in a controlled situation, or an equal one, but that’s not if ever the case. Bloom is always going to have this problem like it or not. Really, even if you do be rid of it it would still be there just in another form. Also a risk reward element to the game is not a problem in the least. It’s really becoming quite apparent that bloom is only the problem in a very limited fashion. Meaning some players can’t discern the actual “problem” and just know it has something to do with bloom.
Now just to get some actual constructive criticism out there. I find that while what we have now is working, or can work, there are potentially things wrong with it in the first place. That being head shot capability. It really just seems unnecessary, and unless I missed something gives that player an undeserved advantage. Which leads me to my suggestions. Make the head shot capable weapons no longer head shot capable. Not including the sniper of course. That or make everything head shot capable, but only at long range. Again excluding the sniper. That one is a bit more extreme and I’d imagine needs some work. I think I described it well enough though, just don’t ask why head shots arbitrarily work at long range only.
>
first of all the definition for spamming isnt narrow at all. some people try to throttle their rate of fire like everything points to the way the DMR was intended to be used, and some people disregard ‘bloom’ and just full auto spam.
sorry, but spamming factually wins against pacing a significant amount of the time. thats fine if you dont believe it to be true, but i assure you, in my 9+ years of playing halo at an above average level, i know when people are spamming, and when they are pacing, and using cadence, and spamming not only wins, it wins OFTEN. even if its only 10% of the time, thats still 10% where the game FAILS by any competitive persons standpoint. there literally isnt A SINGLE GOOD REASON why spamming should EVER WIN against pacing on a MARKSMAN RIFLE. none, nadda, zilch, zip, not one reason. and, in my opinion, even if the pacer misses 2 shots they should STILL WIN versus someone who takes absolutely no regard for bloom, and just mashes their R trigger like a clown. spamming is the primary reason why myself, a halo veteran since CE who has played halo RELIGIOUSLY to say the very least, has up and stopped playing halo altogether. i assure you it is a problem, and a HUGE one at that.
the results from the test that showed that spamming wins vs pacing did use 2 players standing still, but… thats the most accurate way to get good results. players moving around really makes very little difference, and has very little effect on the result of a test like this because the player speed in halo reach is SUPER SLOW, so its REALLY HARD to miss, especially since the spammer has a watermelon sized reticule, and bullet magnetism for the head is GIGANTIC!
check out this video for bullet magnetism proof: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-45vC8_sXQ
dont believe me? have your friend and you play a 1v1 with DMRs only, no melees, no armor abilities, and no grenades. you spam the whole time, and have your friend pace the whole time using a cadence (1, 2, pause, 1, 2, pause, 1, 2, pause will work best for this, its not 100% optimal, but its easy to pick up and use; also note that the 1, 2’s are at full spam cadence, but the pause makes this not count as ‘spamming’ because the user is actually trying to throttle his rate of fire to retain 100% accuracy) and you will quickly see how much spamming wins, especially at mid-close ranges.
also, the 24% example was at mid range, with controlled results.
the thing is, if you full auto spam, you dont even have to have perfect aim because your reticule is HUGE and the bullet will land anywhere in this reticule, and bullet magnetism makes a lot of misses into hits too. because of this, people can flail around with the DMR essentially all day long, for entirely too much success (quite frankly even 1% of spamming winning vs pacing is horrible, at any range aside from melee range).
the worst part about spamming, however, is that it is actually factually optimal (tried, and true, and also proven) so long as your reticule covers half of your target (which is pretty far range), for the first 4 hits, then you slow down and headshot for the final hit. this means that the result of these optimal use battles of DMR vs DMR are almost entirely random in their victor, basically regardless of either persons shooting prowess, even if 1 person gets the first shot.
even if you try to pace with a cadence against full auto spamming, if you miss even ONE BULLET the chances that the spammer would win against you essentially SKYROCKET. also, even if you get the first shot, then follow up with flawless cadence, and perfect aim, SPAMMING CAN STILL WIN AGAINST YOU AT DAMN NEAR EVERY SINGLE RANGE. quite frankly, thats just pathetic.
literally the only range that the DMR isnt flat out horribly implemented is LONG range, and thats pretty sad.
think about it this way:
the entire point of bloom is to encourage people to throttle their shots, right? if that is the case, then why is it that completely disregarding this, and using full auto spamming wins AT ALL? it simply doesnt make any sense whatsoever.