So I’d like to talk about the thruster abilities in Halo 5: thrust dodge, Hover, charge and ground pound. I’m not a fan, but not for the reasons you might expect, it’s not because it changes the ‘Halo formula’ or I think it’s unbalanced or anything like that. My faults are with the implementation. I think the abilities are a disjointed mess of illogical button combinations that unnecessarily complicate player controls. All these actions could easily be achieved with one button, or with a natural combination with other pre existing actions. But instead the controls are all over the place.
I think Slide works well because it is a natural combination of the actions of Sprinting and Crouching. Sprint gives you a speed boost, crouch changes the players stance into a lower position so yes transitioning to a lower stance whilst maintaining some speed is a natural combination of these actions. Whilst Stabilise on the other hand is not. I’d say it’s a bit of a leap to say Jump + Zoom = Hover. Magnifying the players perspective is a completely unrelated action to activating your thrusters to hover/ stabilise. Likewise Spartan Charge, Sprint + melee seems a bit disconnected from a thrust assisted melee ability. What would make more sense is thrust + melee equalling charge. Then there’s jump + hold melee equalling a hover in the air leading to a charged downward thrust and shock wave melee attack ability i.e. ground pound. What?!
Now imagine if Holding thrust charged up a more powerful longer duration thrust. You could use this to preform a Spartan charge. It would have the benefit of making Spartan charge no longer being a flinch attack, you would have to charge it to preform the action. If it is preformed in the air that could be a ground pound, charging the ground pound could cause you to hover mid-air. Then holding thrust whilst zooming could be stabilise. To me that is so much simpler.
I also think 343 missed a trick in only having one set of ‘Spartan Abilities’. I applaud going back to equal starts for Arena but you could still have had power-ups that for example change the thrust ability into a forerunner teleport ability. Or changed it to what ever else you could come up with. You are only limited by your Imagination.
I can’t see your argument because button combination wise it makes sense. Jump then Hold melee you down a downwards melee. Run forward and melee you Thrust forward.
they make sense to me (I just hate them).
thrusting there’s no way to make it make sense it the way you’re talking about so that’s probbaly why they just made it a one button press combo that doesn’t do anything else. Default it’s B so on so forth. But they put it in a place where it’s not much of a transition between your fingers which makes it smoother to thrust and engage the opponent in front of you.
i don’t lie the holding thrust to charge up certain abilities ie charge and pound sounds interesting but I think implemented it wouldn’t work just due to the fact Halo 5 is about fast and smooth game play. That doesn’t seem smooth in my head and actually seems like more work and weirder for the hands to pull off on the controller (not as in it’ll be hard but it’ll feel off for the player)
It can but there are different button layouts so it’s not too bad really. Also if you have seen extra money get the fusion controller ($70 I think) or the elite($150 I believe) with the extra buttons and button mapping makes it no big deal at all.
I too am not a fan, and very much for the reasons people might think. I like the discussion about the control scheme, but that shouldn’t mean that we don’t talk about whether these mechanics are a net gain or a net loss for the franchise. As some one pointed out just after launch, in previous Halos you could navigate your environment with a thumbstick coupled to the occasional crouch or jump. Now the complexity of motion is so high that I would argue it creates a barrier to entry. And not just for new players.
On the subject of the control scheme I would say that your points are very valid and I would add that the confusion is compounded by the fact that there are different button layouts which advantage some players while disadvantaging others.
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> It can but there are different button layouts so it’s not too bad really. Also if you have seen extra money get the fusion controller ($70 I think) or the elite($150 I believe) with the extra buttons and button mapping makes it no big deal at all.
This makes me cry. It seems like you’re saying that it’s no big deal to switch button layouts (after 17 years of doing it the same way) all in the interest of cleanly executing a mechanic like charge which is repugnant to begin with, whether I’m being charged or am the one charging. And the idea that I shell out $150 to solve a problem that should never have existed to begin with… that’s almost the definition of pay-to-win. Makes the req system look pretty tame when you think about it.
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> I too am not a fan, and very much for the reasons people might think. I like the discussion about the control scheme, but that shouldn’t mean that we don’t talk about whether these mechanics are a net gain or a net loss for the franchise. As some one pointed out just after launch, in previous Halos you could navigate your environment with a thumbstick coupled to the occasional crouch or jump. Now the complexity of motion is so high that I would argue it creates a barrier to entry. And not just for new players.
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> On the subject of the control scheme I would say that your points are very valid and I would add that the confusion is compounded by the fact that there are different button layouts which advantage some players while disadvantaging others.
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> > It can but there are different button layouts so it’s not too bad really. Also if you have seen extra money get the fusion controller ($70 I think) or the elite($150 I believe) with the extra buttons and button mapping makes it no big deal at all.
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> This makes me cry. It seems like you’re saying that it’s no big deal to switch button layouts (after 17 years of doing it the same way) all in the interest of cleanly executing a mechanic like charge which is repugnant to begin with, whether I’m being charged or am the one charging. And the idea that I shell out $150 to solve a problem that should never have existed to begin with… that’s almost the definition of pay-to-win. Makes the req system look pretty tame when you think about it.
No buying an upgraded controller isnt “pay to win”. It’s pay for nicer button layouts. It’s only logical with extra abilities there will be extra buttons or different buttons used. Previous Halo games had simpler mechanics so less buttons were needed to making comfortable control layouts was pretty easy. Currently I use the Halo 4 set up which wasn’t hard to get used to at all. Then when I got a fusion then eventually the elite controller (which unfortunately I broke) and remapped the crouch to the button under the controller it made it nice.
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> No buying an upgraded controller isnt “pay to win”. It’s pay for nicer button layouts. It’s only logical with extra abilities there will be extra buttons or different buttons used. Previous Halo games had simpler mechanics so less buttons were needed to making comfortable control layouts was pretty easy. Currently I use the Halo 4 set up which wasn’t hard to get used to at all. Then when I got a fusion then eventually the elite controller (which unfortunately I broke) and remapped the crouch to the button under the controller it made it nice.
Not to be that guy who spends every waking minute second-guessing the developer, but:
If I was developing a triple-A game, with the implied necessity of attracting and retaining as many players as possible, would I seriously consider the addition of mechanics which virtually demand that legacy players throw out their traditional button layouts? Would I seriously consider that, even if I could get my legacy players to make this (for some) very difficult transition, that they still might find themselves disadvantaged by an oem controller - disadvantaged to the point where an after-market controller is almost a necessity for competitive play? And who am I kidding with “competitive play,” seemingly implying that there is a casual side to Halo 5?
Why can’t a player who is not interested in HCS just pick up a controller, using his legacy lay out, and play the game with anything even resembling competence? Because the developer made some really questionable design decisions. Their’s to make? Yes. Made the right call? I don’t know, my friend. I look at the population of this game and I wonder, as I’ve said many times, if “too competitive” isn’t just as much a death sentence as “too casual.”
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> > No buying an upgraded controller isnt “pay to win”. It’s pay for nicer button layouts. It’s only logical with extra abilities there will be extra buttons or different buttons used. Previous Halo games had simpler mechanics so less buttons were needed to making comfortable control layouts was pretty easy. Currently I use the Halo 4 set up which wasn’t hard to get used to at all. Then when I got a fusion then eventually the elite controller (which unfortunately I broke) and remapped the crouch to the button under the controller it made it nice.
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> Not to be that guy who spends every waking minute second-guessing the developer, but:
>
> If I was developing a triple-A game, with the implied necessity of attracting and retaining as many players as possible, would I seriously consider the addition of mechanics which virtually demand that legacy players throw out their traditional button layouts? Would I seriously consider that, even if I could get my legacy players to make this (for some) very difficult transition, that they still might find themselves disadvantaged by an oem controller - disadvantaged to the point where an after-market controller is almost a necessity for competitive play? And who am I kidding with “competitive play,” seemingly implying that there is a casual side to Halo 5?
>
> Why can’t a player who is not interested in HCS just pick up a controller, using his legacy lay out, and play the game with anything even resembling competence? Because the developer made some really questionable design decisions. Their’s to make? Yes. Made the right call? I don’t know, my friend. I look at the population of this game and I wonder, as I’ve said many times, if “too competitive” isn’t just as much a death sentence as “too casual.”
Hate to be that guy but if learning new button layouts is so much trouble, especially for “legacy” players then perhaps move on to an easier game. To me game play would be get pretty stale if it’s the same thing game after game. To me the population of this game is low due to bare bones launch, taking a bit to long to get to a proper contented game and more importantly the over all function of the game. H5 isn’t a very stable game at all.
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> Hate to be that guy but if learning new button layouts is so much trouble, especially for “legacy” players then perhaps move on to an easier game. To me game play would be get pretty stale if it’s the same thing game after game. To me the population of this game is low due to bare bones launch, taking a bit to long to get to a proper contented game and more importantly the over all function of the game. H5 isn’t a very stable game at all.
I’ve been wrestling with moving on to an easier game. Turns out to be harder than I ever thought to walk away from a game I’ve invested this many years it. But that’s yet another recon problem, not a Halo problem.
I have to agree that the population suffered greatly from the launch, and I’m just beginning now to see some of the stability problems that other people have been describing. But even with all that, I still think this game is downright hostile to new players, and not very friendly to the old players either.
On the issue of a game getting stale: I’ve always wished that weapon and motion mechanics would evolve only very slowly (if at all) over the course of many games and the real innovation, the change that keeps things fresh, would come in the form of new campaigns, new maps and gametypes, better custom game capabilities, and most importantly, better non-campaign PvE experiences. Those are the things that I want to learn when a game launches. If I have to re-learn how to use an assault rifle then I feel like that’s change for the sake of change. And if I’m two years in and I still can’t use that assault rifle… I’m not sure if that’s a recon problem or a Halo problem, but it’s definitely a problem, and I doubt I’m the only one who has it.
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> > Hate to be that guy but if learning new button layouts is so much trouble, especially for “legacy” players then perhaps move on to an easier game. To me game play would be get pretty stale if it’s the same thing game after game. To me the population of this game is low due to bare bones launch, taking a bit to long to get to a proper contented game and more importantly the over all function of the game. H5 isn’t a very stable game at all.
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> I’ve been wrestling with moving on to an easier game. Turns out to be harder than I ever thought to walk away from a game I’ve invested this many years it. But that’s yet another recon problem, not a Halo problem.
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> I have to agree that the population suffered greatly from the launch, and I’m just beginning now to see some of the stability problems that other people have been describing. But even with all that, I still think this game is downright hostile to new players, and not very friendly to the old players either.
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> On the issue of a game getting stale: I’ve always wished that weapon and motion mechanics would evolve only very slowly (if at all) over the course of many games and the real innovation, the change that keeps things fresh, would come in the form of new campaigns, new maps and gametypes, better custom game capabilities, and most importantly, better non-campaign PvE experiences. Those are the things that I want to learn when a game launches. If I have to re-learn how to use an assault rifle then I feel like that’s change for the sake of change. And if I’m two years in and I still can’t use that assault rifle… I’m not sure if that’s a recon problem or a Halo problem, but it’s definitely a problem, and I doubt I’m the only one who has it.
The AR is awesome in H5. I am so glad it’s finally useful again. Smart link on it is great. It’s most effective as a burst fire weapon. I can agree H5 is especially brutal to new players and for me as a long time Halo player(since H2) it did take me longer to get used to the mechanics and settings than any other previous Halo. But I enjoy the challenge and the change. H5 is the first Halo game I actually had to change some settings as well.
The controller schemes work fine imo. Not a fan of alllll the mechanics, but they make perfect sense for me layout wise. And if having to push B instead of pushing in the stick to crouch really bothers people so much, Halo 6 should have the option to route your own button format like Titanfall 2 does. The larger complaints regarding these abilities are much more of an issue to me and i think that the controller layout of these abilities is something that will be easily solved in Halo 6 as 343 has had time to digest peoples complaints and concerns regarding these gameplay mechanics.
I respectfully disagree for the most part. I think they make a lot of sense, with the exception of stabilize. I turned off stabilize because I got tired of chasing people down and being penalized for zooming in.
Hint: I still use it a lot anyway though, mostly for the purpose of quick sniper shots and lasering vehicles. When you turn stabilize off in the controller settings, it can still be activated in mid air by pressing the B button while using smartlink. Simply jump, zoom, and press B. I would like it even more if it could be used w/o zooming but I think that might potentially create some balance issues.
Clamber makes sense to me; hold A after jumping to climb.
Given that you’re able to thrust and spartan charge while sprinting, I think that having the option to do either makes sense. Because thrust can always be used, assuming it is cooled down, it is extremely helpful to the new “flow” of things. A spartan charge can be followed up with a quick evade. This is especially helpful if you miss. You have a split second to evade left or right, thrust forward to stay with your target, or to thrust away from them should they have an SMG, sword, or other CQC weapon.
Ground Pound: I am going to be a bit biased here. I LOVE ground pound. It is such a powerful tool and it goes beyond being an attack, as it can transport a flag or a ball great distances very quickly. I also recently found out that I am like top 1% in damage dealt with ground pound which makes me more defensive over it because I am horrendous at everything else lol. But I gotta say it just feels right. You jump, hold the melee button to charge, and let it rip. I have never used the default controls, so I don’t know if it’s the same feel for everyone, but it’s amazing with boxer. It just works. I like how easy it is to execute in midair as well, as opposed to a simple melee attack in midair. I wish it were this simple to determine whether your character executed a beat down or an assassination.
I wouldn’t mind shoulder charge, if the charge up wasn’t so short. Time after time I am killed by people who literally run around the map and only shoulder charge due to how bad the maps are.
Your ideas actually seem worse to me and I’m not a fan of all these abilities or having the ground pound button press take priority over an air melee. Why do I have to thrust first and then hold down the button to do a Spartan charge? It’s much simpler to just have one button press for each ability. Would it also mean that Spartan Charge is not enabled by sprinting anymore? That would make it worse if so. Also, why do I have to thrust first in order to do a ground pound? There are situations where thrusting wouldn’t be good. Why is thrusting the catalyst for almost every ability?
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> Your ideas actually seem worse to me and I’m not a fan of all these abilities or having the ground pound button press take priority over an air melee. Why do I have to thrust first and then hold down the button to do a Spartan charge? It’s much simpler to just have one button press for each ability. Would it also mean that Spartan Charge is not enabled by sprinting anymore? That would make it worse if so. Also, why do I have to thrust first in order to do a ground pound? There are situations where thrusting wouldn’t be good. Why is thrusting the catalyst for almost every ability?
Melee for charge and ground pound does for the most part kinda make sense as they are all attacks. (Though Stabilise really doesn’t. And back when Ground pound was jump + crouch, that was messy.) But the above is not what I would suggest. I wouldn’t have 3rd person animation for charge at all, I would have it that if you simply thrust into someone you would ‘boop’ them, knocking them back and maybe doing a bit of damage in the process. And that would be charge, that’s it. One action having multiple outcomes depending upon how it is performed, to me that is good game design, it adds depth to a single button press. And if you want to do bonus damage you combine it with a melee. No I wouldn’t have charge connected to Sprint, I would just have a slower ROF melee when sprinting and a knock back to prevent double melee shenanigans. Maybe if you sprint, then thrust you could do more ‘boop’ damage because of your momentum but that’s about it. I feel the only reason the camera pulls back is to draw attention to the move, make it seem like a bigger deal than it actually is.
I was suggesting having tap thrust for a quick thrust dodge, hold thrust to charge up for a bigger thrust. that’s it. Hold melee already performs an action, an assassination, and I don’t know if you’ve ever tried to ground pound with a control scheme using B for melee, the only way to aim the ground pound is to ‘claw’ since other wise you have to take your thumb off the right analog stick to hold B. Now that’s just broken and restricts you to specific control schemes.
Although I may change my suggestion to hold thrust to hover. To make it even simpler. That way you don’t have to zoom to preform hover. You don’t need to make the thruster system as complex as it is. Halo traditionally has always been simple at it’s core, adding complexity through it’s sandbox, I would rather thrusters be simple and it be part of a bigger pick up system that gives players different abilities. Armour Abilities were actually closer to what I would like, the only problem with them was you spawned with them and they were connected to loadouts.
I only like Thrusters for dodging, I do not like Spartan Charge or Ground Pound. However, I’d be lying if I didn’t say this is starting to feel like a super soldier.
My two cents on this, is that the controls at launch were likely the most accepted and most understandable by test groups.
Remember that the controls weren’t just arbitrarily decided before launch. 343 almost certainly had a mix of beginner, intermediate, and expert level players testing different control schemes for 1-2 years before they set the defaults.
In all likelihood, controls similar to what you’ve suggested were likely tested for a period of time, and then rejected.
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> My two cents on this, is that the controls at launch were likely the most accepted and most understandable by test groups.
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> Remember that the controls weren’t just arbitrarily decided before launch. 343 almost certainly had a mix of beginner, intermediate, and expert level players testing different control schemes for 1-2 years before they set the defaults.
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> In all likelihood, controls similar to what you’ve suggested were likely tested for a period of time, and then rejected.
I actually doubt this was an area of much scrutiny in play-testing. Otherwise I wouldn’t think certain things would have been missed. I went into Halo 5 wanting to use Recon controls but soon realised ground pound didn’t really work with melee on B and so I had to change controls. Halo 5 undoubtedly has the most complex user inputs of any Halo game, in fact it has the most complex controls out of any FPS I’ve played I can think of. I’m glad going into Halo 5 I had 15+ years of fps experience, I think I would have been put off if it was my first fps.
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> I too am not a fan, and very much for the reasons people might think. I like the discussion about the control scheme, but that shouldn’t mean that we don’t talk about whether these mechanics are a net gain or a net loss for the franchise. As some one pointed out just after launch, in previous Halos you could navigate your environment with a thumbstick coupled to the occasional crouch or jump. Now the complexity of motion is so high that I would argue it creates a barrier to entry. And not just for new players.
>
> On the subject of the control scheme I would say that your points are very valid and I would add that the confusion is compounded by the fact that there are different button layouts which advantage some players while disadvantaging others.
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> > It can but there are different button layouts so it’s not too bad really. Also if you have seen extra money get the fusion controller ($70 I think) or the elite($150 I believe) with the extra buttons and button mapping makes it no big deal at all.
>
> This makes me cry. It seems like you’re saying that it’s no big deal to switch button layouts (after 17 years of doing it the same way) all in the interest of cleanly executing a mechanic like charge which is repugnant to begin with, whether I’m being charged or am the one charging. And the idea that I shell out $150 to solve a problem that should never have existed to begin with… that’s almost the definition of pay-to-win. Makes the req system look pretty tame when you think about it.
Yeah I agree, there is much more to discuss on this topic, I would have written more but had to dash to work.
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> Stabilize isnt really jump + zoom since you should have auto stabilize set to off. Its jump + zoom + stabilize.
I did in fact turn auto stabilise off day one of the beta. But jump + zoom + crouch = Hover doesn’t exactly fix he issue, it’s in fact more complex, which was my complaint.
I personally think the button combos currently make sense. jump hold melee for a downwards melee attack. When you sprint you have thrusters on your back so melee-ing while sprinting which transitions into a smooth melee attack using thrusters. Halo 5 is really smooth and swift in a lot of it’s gameplay in my opinion. I think charging the abilities the way youre saying would be interesting but i’d have to test it to see if id like it.