Thrust is a crutch and it needs to go.

Games Halo 5: Guardians
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> > > > > > > I don’t really see it as a crutch. You kind of have to use thrust because the strafing isn’t that good in this game.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I think the biggest issue with it is that it can prolong gunfights. It allows you to expose yourself more than you could without it and you can get back into cover quicker.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If thrust is only a good mechanic because the strafe sucks then thrust isn’t a good mechanic. Get rid of thrust and improve the strafe speed and the problem is solved.
> > > > >
> > > > > But thrust does improve strafe speed…
> > > >
> > > > But you don’t need it to increase strafe speed. You can have a fast and responsive strafe without it. 1v1 gunfights in Halo 5 would be terrible without thrust because the strafe is terribly slow. Thrust provides a bandaid fix to a problem that can be solved without it.
> > >
> > > It’s not a band aid at all. It solves the problem nicely I think. It adds more diversity to your movement.
> >
> > How does it solves the problem nicely. If a game has a terrible strafe wouldn’t the idea solution be to fix the strafe and make it better rather than to add a new mechanic to try and make up for the bad strafe? I’m not saying you can’t use it in creative ways in a 1v1 but that is outweighed by the fact that when it isn’t being used to juke an opponent it is being used as a get out of jail free card. Give players a fast and responsive strafe with projectile weapons and you’ll achieve much more skillfull and interesting 1v1s than Halo 5 will ever have with thrust.
>
> Not to me. With just a faster strafe all you have to do is essentially move… Thusters have to be timed correctly in engagements to be effective.

I disagree. Thrust is an instantaneous jolt in whatever direction you choose. No one can accurately predict that sudden of a movement, so unless they happen to be lucky they will always be thrown off for a fraction of a second. A strafe can go both ways. Good players can mix up their movement to be hard to track and even harder to predict, whereas lesser skilled players will often use a very basic or no strafe at all. Base movement should be of paramount importance.

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I see your point but I like thrust. It’s just so much fun and makes the game more interesting. I’d be sad if it weren’t in H6, I get why you don’t like it though.

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> There’s something I’ve forgotten to mention in regards to revising thrust to make it more predictable and less of a crutch. It’s actually pretty simple, and thanks to Gobias from Team Beyond for this suggestion.
>
> You can basically redefine thrust as a wall-kick. This maneuver is only activated by jumping into a wall and pressing a button to push yourself off the wall, in whatever time you remain in the air while touching the wall. The balance in this is that the ability is more predictable due to to the restrictions in where you can execute this ability, instead of being able to use it at any time. Additionally, this ability will effectively remove the possibility of escaping with wall kick because your escape routes will typically run parallel to the walls, not perpendicular. Wall kick can push you off in the same speed as the current thrust (and decrease as you reach the ground from jumping).
>
> Assuming that people can actually keep an open mind, this could be very interesting.

I would be pro a wall kick, just as long a it isn’t taken too far. One thing I wouldn’t want is wall run or anything like that. I think I would put the stipulation on it that it should be strictly a horizontal push, not even a subtle little vertical jump. I think it would be cool for trick jumps and would add an extra dimension to staffing without being as invasive and difficult to counter as thrust.

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> > It really adds the heat to a gunfight. Poses a challenge to all. It NEEDS to stay.
>
> For every time it “adds the heat” to a gun fight it also stops one dead cold by someone thrusting behind cover and escaping.

That’s also the heat. You never know, they can be coming from all over. You really never know

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> > > It really adds the heat to a gunfight. Poses a challenge to all. It NEEDS to stay.
> >
> > For every time it “adds the heat” to a gun fight it also stops one dead cold by someone thrusting behind cover and escaping.
>
> That’s also the heat. You never know, they can be coming from all over. You really never know

Player preference I guess. I don’t like that you “never really know.” Predicting player movement was a huge part of the classic Halos. I’m not a fan of the randomness present in H5 that is caused by the movement mechanics and map design.

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I disagree, what thrust do is push engagements of Halo into more consistent combat. It is the concept that knowing I have an extra ability to help me get out of tight spots than I don’t have to be such a pansy and hide behind walls so much. It lets people push out more and engage into combat or take positions and other maneuvers. Thrust helps evolve the game into better and more precise combat situations. Granted there are those button mashers that hit it out of instinct, or as a help to center on an enemy when they shoot you first, but it does take Halo to another level of combat that you have to master to get even better at.

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> 2533274968707582;131:
> There’s something I’ve forgotten to mention in regards to revising thrust to make it more predictable and less of a crutch. It’s actually pretty simple, and thanks to Gobias from Team Beyond for this suggestion.
>
> You can basically redefine thrust as a wall-kick. This maneuver is only activated by jumping into a wall and pressing a button to push yourself off the wall, in whatever time you remain in the air while touching the wall. The balance in this is that the ability is more predictable due to to the restrictions in where you can execute this ability, instead of being able to use it at any time. Additionally, this ability will effectively remove the possibility of escaping with wall kick because your escape routes will typically run parallel to the walls, not perpendicular. Wall kick can push you off in the same speed as the current thrust (and decrease as you reach the ground from jumping).
>
> Assuming that people can actually keep an open mind, this could be very interesting.

Wouldn’t totally be against something like this. Hell even reduce the distance of thrust 50% so it can’t be used to escape as easily and so it has less of an effect on map design and allow players to shoot during the animation and I’d probably be OK with it. It’s current implementation however is terrible because of how much distance you get and the fact you can’t even shoot during it. This all makes it act like an escape button rather than a good addition to strafing and gunfights.

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> I disagree. Thrust is an instantaneous jolt in whatever direction you choose. No one can accurately predict that sudden of a movement, so unless they happen to be lucky they will always be thrown off for a fraction of a second. A strafe can go both ways. Good players can mix up their movement to be hard to track and even harder to predict, whereas lesser skilled players will often use a very basic or no strafe at all. Base movement should be of paramount importance.

The bolded statement is obviously false. I’ve seen pros headshot one-shot players who were in mid-thrust–and pretty consistently, it just requires a very fast adjustment to your aim that you can’t manage on a low sens and without a lot of practice (to establish the muscle memory). I’ve also seen pros get the same kind of treatment from high-rank players in matchmaking.

When a player starts moving to one side in a traditional strafe pattern, you immediately begin adjusting your aim to catch him, right? That happens in an instant as well, so fast that you don’t even have time to think about it–you just react. It’s the same thing when someone thrusts in the middle of a gunfight. Like I said to tsassi: See enemy move left, move crosshair left. The only difference is, with thrust in the picture, you have to distinguish that they’re thrusting in that direction instead of strafing (and it’s very easy to tell the two apart because, for one, they look completely different) and then you’ll have to move your crosshair much more quickly in that direction to catch them before they can begin shooting you again.

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> 2533274968707582;131:
> There’s something I’ve forgotten to mention in regards to revising thrust to make it more predictable and less of a crutch. It’s actually pretty simple, and thanks to Gobias from Team Beyond for this suggestion.
>
> You can basically redefine thrust as a wall-kick. This maneuver is only activated by jumping into a wall and pressing a button to push yourself off the wall, in whatever time you remain in the air while touching the wall. The balance in this is that the ability is more predictable due to to the restrictions in where you can execute this ability, instead of being able to use it at any time. Additionally, this ability will effectively remove the possibility of escaping with wall kick because your escape routes will typically run parallel to the walls, not perpendicular. Wall kick can push you off in the same speed as the current thrust (and decrease as you reach the ground from jumping).
>
> Assuming that people can actually keep an open mind, this could be very interesting.

And does it have more applications and Thruster Pack?

I always feel really bad about the fact that in order to defend why a mechanic shouldn’t be in a game, you need to go so far as to argue that it’s detrimental to gameplay. But the thing is, a mechanic doesn’t need to be just not detrimental to be worth implementing. It needs to add a substantial amount of new tactics, it needs to be more than just a one-trick pony. As I’ve explained above, I don’t think Thruster Pack does that. I don’t think it does that even if you have the imagination to see it as more than just a strafing aid. And so I question whether a wall jump, an ability that’s even more limited in its applicability, can add more?

With that said, I think a wall jump could be meaningful enough if you consider it as an extension of normal jumping, rather than a replacement for Thruster Pack. Some ground rules to make it interesting should be that there is no artificial delay between wall jumps, that it doesn’t impede the player’s ability to execute other actions, that you need to have momentum perpendicular to the wall in order to wall jump (no wall jumps by standing next to a wall), that it would have to be very sensitive to timing and placement to maintain some skill, that momentum parallel to the wall should be conserved (no magical changes in direction), and that it should provide a small amount of additional vertical momentum. With these attributes, you can actually start designing paths on maps that would elevate it from a gimmick to a varied movement ability.

In other words, I see potential in a wall jump mechanic, but I think viewing it as a more limited replacement to Thruster Pack is destining it to be a gimmick that adds barely any depth. If such a mechanic was ever implemented, it should rather be viewed as an extension of the ability to jump. It also follows from this that I don’t see this as ruling out or acting as a replacement for other short horizontal boost abilities like Thruster Pack or Evade, but for the reason you mentioned—that a wall jump is inherently more restricted—such abilities are bound to give players more freedom and be more difficult to control (for the map designer) than a wall jump.

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> > > > It really adds the heat to a gunfight. Poses a challenge to all. It NEEDS to stay.
> > >
> > > For every time it “adds the heat” to a gun fight it also stops one dead cold by someone thrusting behind cover and escaping.
> >
> > That’s also the heat. You never know, they can be coming from all over. You really never know
>
> Player preference I guess. I don’t like that you “never really know.” Predicting player movement was a huge part of the classic Halos. I’m not a fan of the randomness present in H5 that is caused by the movement mechanics and map design.

I personally love randomness. I love a good challenge when I see one.

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> > > > > It really adds the heat to a gunfight. Poses a challenge to all. It NEEDS to stay.
> > > >
> > > > For every time it “adds the heat” to a gun fight it also stops one dead cold by someone thrusting behind cover and escaping.
> > >
> > > That’s also the heat. You never know, they can be coming from all over. You really never know
> >
> > Player preference I guess. I don’t like that you “never really know.” Predicting player movement was a huge part of the classic Halos. I’m not a fan of the randomness present in H5 that is caused by the movement mechanics and map design.
>
> I personally love randomness. I love a good challenge when I see one.

For me the challenge IS in predicting player movement. Juking out and getting a reversal on a player who jumps out from behind a corner and starts shooting you is one skill. Doming him with the sniper right as he comes around the corner because he knew he’d be there based on his partner’s location, your partner’s location, and the general flow of the map is a whole different skill.

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> > > > > > It really adds the heat to a gunfight. Poses a challenge to all. It NEEDS to stay.
> > > > >
> > > > > For every time it “adds the heat” to a gun fight it also stops one dead cold by someone thrusting behind cover and escaping.
> > > >
> > > > That’s also the heat. You never know, they can be coming from all over. You really never know
> > >
> > > Player preference I guess. I don’t like that you “never really know.” Predicting player movement was a huge part of the classic Halos. I’m not a fan of the randomness present in H5 that is caused by the movement mechanics and map design.
> >
> > I personally love randomness. I love a good challenge when I see one.
>
> For me the challenge IS in predicting player movement. Juking out and getting a reversal on a player who jumps out from behind a corner and starts shooting you is one skill. Doming him with the sniper right as he comes around the corner because he knew he’d be there based on his partner’s location, your partner’s location, and the general flow of the map is a whole different skill.

Quite difficult, but not impossible. Mastering skills of prediction is one thing, but I love the step up.

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I feel like thrust keeps the pace going which I like and stuff like avoiding a rocket using your thrust feels invigorating :slight_smile: I can agree it feels awkward to go back to older halo’s without the Spartan abilities but its something you gotta deal with.

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After reading a whole lot of arguments for each side of this post, it seems to me that many arguing in favor of removing thrust are simply not great at thrusting during a gun fight yet.

Thrust is literally the definition of a great game mechanic. Easy to learn, and hard to master.

Just practice thrusting, jump thrusting, and slide thrusting, and you’ll realize it’s a solid mechanic, and not a crutch.

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> > > > > > > It really adds the heat to a gunfight. Poses a challenge to all. It NEEDS to stay.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > For every time it “adds the heat” to a gun fight it also stops one dead cold by someone thrusting behind cover and escaping.
> > > > >
> > > > > That’s also the heat. You never know, they can be coming from all over. You really never know
> > > >
> > > > Player preference I guess. I don’t like that you “never really know.” Predicting player movement was a huge part of the classic Halos. I’m not a fan of the randomness present in H5 that is caused by the movement mechanics and map design.
> > >
> > > I personally love randomness. I love a good challenge when I see one.
> >
> > For me the challenge IS in predicting player movement. Juking out and getting a reversal on a player who jumps out from behind a corner and starts shooting you is one skill. Doming him with the sniper right as he comes around the corner because he knew he’d be there based on his partner’s location, your partner’s location, and the general flow of the map is a whole different skill.
>
> Quite difficult, but not impossible. Mastering skills of prediction is one thing, but I love the step up.

*step down FTFY Haha for real though I disagree with you. You can maintain a high shooting skill gap by having high strafe acceleration and guns with very little to no aim assist and bullet magnetism while still maintaining a movement system and map design that allow for more predictable player movement and engagements. Randomness is generally not a good thing in competitive games.

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> *step down FTFY Haha for real though I disagree with you. You can maintain a high shooting skill gap by having high strafe acceleration and guns with very little to no aim assist and bullet magnetism while still maintaining a movement system and map design that allow for more predictable player movement and engagements. Randomness is generally not a good thing in competitive games.

I find it strange how you mentally separate between “randomness”, which you use to refer to movement you don’t like, and “predictable movement”, which you use to refer to movement you do like. You do realize that there’s no line to be drawn here? Predictability and randomness are not mutually exclusive, and in fact, the experience you so enjoy crucially relies on the existence of randomness. For if player movement was completely predictable, we’d all be moving on a predetermined path at a steady pace, and there’d be no challenge at all in predicting player movement. Randomness in player movement is crucial for competitive play.

The fact that you can’t predict with 100% certainty where another player will be at all times necessarily means that there exists an element of randomness in the player’s location. Your prediction, after all, is just that, a prediction, a belief that a player will be more likely to be found in one place than another. The skillin predicting other players is removing as much of the uncertainty about the location of opponents as you can by inferring more probably movement patterns from their behavior. But ultimately, there is still randomness at play, you will never know for certain where the opponent will be until you check.

The challenge you describe doesn’t come completely from the fact that you can predict other players, nor from the fact that there’s uncertainty in the movements of other players, but from the fact that by learning how players move, you can decrease this uncertainty. “More predictable” isn’t necessarily better for competitive play, as shown by the extreme example in the first paragraph. What matters is how much the accuracy of predictions made by an experienced player differs from those made by a novice. If the game is too predictable, then it will be too easy for the novice to make predictions as good as the experienced player. If the game is too unpredictable, then there will be too many possibilities, and the experienced player can’t make predictions that are significantly more accurate than those of the novice. Designing a game with good level of predictability is finding an optimal level of predictability between these two extremes.

What you’re essentially asserting, whether you realize it or not, is that the amount of randomness that exists in player movement without Thruster Pack is more optimal than the amount of randomness that exists with it. However, I fail to see why this should be the case.

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> After reading a whole lot of arguments for each side of this post, it seems to me that many arguing in favor of removing thrust are simply not great at thrusting during a gun fight yet.
>
> Thrust is literally the definition of a great game mechanic. Easy to learn, and hard to master.
>
> Just practice thrusting, jump thrusting, and slide thrusting, and you’ll realize it’s a solid mechanic, and not a crutch.

Where in these posts are you drawing that from? Sounds pretty misleading.

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> > *step down FTFY Haha for real though I disagree with you. You can maintain a high shooting skill gap by having high strafe acceleration and guns with very little to no aim assist and bullet magnetism while still maintaining a movement system and map design that allow for more predictable player movement and engagements. Randomness is generally not a good thing in competitive games.
>
> I find it strange how you mentally separate between “randomness”, which you use to refer to movement you don’t like, and “predictable movement”, which you use to refer to movement you do like. You do realize that there’s no line to be drawn here? Predictability and randomness are not mutually exclusive, and in fact, the experience you so enjoy crucially relies on the existence of randomness. For if player movement was completely predictable, we’d all be moving on a predetermined path at a steady pace, and there’d be no challenge at all in predicting player movement. Randomness in player movement is crucial for competitive play.
>
> The fact that you can’t predict with 100% certainty where another player will be at all times necessarily means that there exists an element of randomness in the player’s location. Your prediction, after all, is just that, a prediction, a belief that a player will be more likely to be found in one place than another. The skillin predicting other players is removing as much of the uncertainty about the location of opponents as you can by inferring more probably movement patterns from their behavior. But ultimately, there is still randomness at play, you will never know for certain where the opponent will be until you check.
>
> The challenge you describe doesn’t come completely from the fact that you can predict other players, nor from the fact that there’s uncertainty in the movements of other players, but from the fact that by learning how players move, you can decrease this uncertainty. “More predictable” isn’t necessarily better for competitive play, as shown by the extreme example in the first paragraph. What matters is how much the accuracy of predictions made by an experienced player differs from those made by a novice. If the game is too predictable, then it will be too easy for the novice to make predictions as good as the experienced player. If the game is too unpredictable, then there will be too many possibilities, and the experienced player can’t make predictions that are significantly more accurate than those of the novice. Designing a game with good level of predictability is finding an optimal level of predictability between these two extremes.
>
> What you’re essentially asserting, whether you realize it or not, is that the amount of randomness that exists in player movement without Thruster Pack is more optimal than the amount of randomness that exists with it. However, I fail to see why this should be the case.

I know that a certain level of randomness is important. The fact that I’m talking about player predction as a skill implies some randomness otherwise there would be no need for predicting anything. Perhaps I should’ve been more clear with my words. Think of chess as an example. There are limited pieces with a set pattern of moves available to them. This limited set of rules makes for an unimaginable amount of plays but is still predictable and a large part of the skill in chess is predicting what your opponent is going to do. Imagine if any piece could now move in any direction. Player prediction would go right out the window. I agree that balance is key but Halo 5 is too much on the random side. Thruster itself doesn’t directly add to this when used as just a strafing tool but given how large a distance it covers combined with things like sprint and clamber it has a huge impact on map movement. A great example is the difference between playing Prisoner in CE and playing it in the H5 classic playlist. Prisoner in CE is highly predictable and high level players will kill low level players left and right because they know where they are going to go before they even do but when high level players play against each other there is plenty enough randomness in the game to make it a nail biting experience. Prisoner in H5 has players flying all around the map from all directions and that player prediction skill gap between high level and low level players shrinks dramatically.

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> >
>
> And does it have more applications and Thruster Pack?
>
> I always feel really bad about the fact that in order to defend why a mechanic shouldn’t be in a game, you need to go so far as to argue that it’s detrimental to gameplay. But the thing is, a mechanic doesn’t need to be just not detrimental to be worth implementing. It needs to add a substantial amount of new tactics, it needs to be more than just a one-trick pony. As I’ve explained above, I don’t think Thruster Pack does that. I don’t think it does that even if you have the imagination to see it as more than just a strafing aid. And so I question whether a wall jump, an ability that’s even more limited in its applicability, can add more?
>
> With that said, I think a wall jump could be meaningful enough if you consider it as an extension of normal jumping, rather than a replacement for Thruster Pack. Some ground rules to make it interesting should be that there is no artificial delay between wall jumps, that it doesn’t impede the player’s ability to execute other actions, that you need to have momentum perpendicular to the wall in order to wall jump (no wall jumps by standing next to a wall), that it would have to be very sensitive to timing and placement to maintain some skill, that momentum parallel to the wall should be conserved (no magical changes in direction), and that it should provide a small amount of additional vertical momentum. With these attributes, you can actually start designing paths on maps that would elevate it from a gimmick to a varied movement ability.
>
> In other words, I see potential in a wall jump mechanic, but I think viewing it as a more limited replacement to Thruster Pack is destining it to be a gimmick that adds barely any depth. If such a mechanic was ever implemented, it should rather be viewed as an extension of the ability to jump. It also follows from this that I don’t see this as ruling out or acting as a replacement for other short horizontal boost abilities like Thruster Pack or Evade, but for the reason you mentioned—that a wall jump is inherently more restricted—such abilities are bound to give players more freedom and be more difficult to control (for the map designer) than a wall jump.

You need to teach me how to quote in the manner that you just did. I cannot handle Waypoint’s system of needing to include every quote from prior posts.

Let’s be clear: Halo doesn’t necessarily require any more movement implemented into the game besides strafing, jumping, and crouching. It is rare for such a necessity to pop up within an established franchise unless the mechanics themselves worked poorly due to lack of depth. Once we reach the sweet spot of strafe acceleration alongside the proper balance of bullet magnetism (which 343 is butchering right now), the skill gap in out-strafing an opponent will be greatly sufficient to sustain the majority of the competitive fan base. In that context, I completely comprehend your fear of this wall-kick feature being nothing more than a gimmick in your view.

That being said, I don’t believe that new movement features need to add so much depth and strategy in the context of whatever role they’re playing to be considered for being implemented. That is already established by the basic movements I’ve already mentioned as the foundation for halo. Halo’s classic movement will only ever need to be revised through subtle additions to movement that enhance and don’t replace the foundation that is already set. If anything, I’d rather add in mechanics that make little difference in the general meta or strategy in a game’s long-term lifespan (as long as they’re beneficial) than mechanics that overstep their boundaries in implementation (like the thrust’s minimal restriction and maximum versatility in usage besides a cooldown) or by the very nature of their functions, like clamber and sprint. That is the context behind the idea of wall-kick as a movement ability: a mechanic that tries to compliment the given features of classic movement, adding more possibilities to gunfights while providing little benefit in actual map traversal.

If there are possibilities for new gameplay additions that don’t try to fundamentally revise the movement and strafing of classic halo (which thrust seemingly fails at), I don’t see why we can’t at least test these ideas and attempt to freshen up the series (which we may never reach that point because of 343).

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> >
> > Now, as for earlier, sure, you can list lazily to the left or right with the left analogue stick. Congrats. Really. Congratulations. You could have simply said increased movement speed, but I suppose that would have been too accurate for you. Projectile weapons? Yeah, like the Brng? No. Bullet magnetism? unrelated, but yes. Definitely lower, especially on the sniper rifles.
> >
> > Perhaps remove thrusters from a “pro” playlist as well as the other armor abilities, however I find it very odd that “pros” couldn’t deal with sporadic movement. Though of course I don’t particularly care either way since I only use thrusters for map movement, since it usually opens you up for a few easy shots as long as the person has decent aim. But if the majority think it best that it make its depart, I won’t particularly care.
> >
> > However, people like you should consider the implications of such requests. Many great custom games rely on the thrust mechanic and while you don’t particularly care for it, others do. What gameplay is better? The one the person prefers. It is entirely subjective. You seem of the mind that your preferred gameplay is the best gameplay, which can neither be proven nor disproven with absolute certainty. Should you wish to have your “No thruster Halo” you are free to do so currently in custom games. I’m certain there are a plethora of persons willing to join you, and it isn’t as though there are a lack of great custom maps for you to play on. Many that are better then those in the matchmaking scene, to be certain.
> >
> > Of course changes will be made to the next Halo’s gameplay, I’m hoping it takes on more of the classic aspects. Personally I would like to have playable elites, duel wielding and have certain abilities disappear. Mind you, I am certain people would disagree with some, if not all of that. And they aren’t entirely wrong.
>
> See. You could’ve just posted something like this the first time like a decent human being instead of wasting time making internet troll posts.

And you could’ve asked nicely.