The weapon sandbox post launch

Games Halo Infinite
#1

Although most of the weapons currently presented in the flights were fairly viable and had unique use cases, it really got me thinking about what the weapon sandbox will look like a year from now… post launch.

Based on everything we know about Infinite being a seasonal live service game, prior history with Halo 5 updates, etc we can easily assume there will be many new weapons included in the sandbox in the future. Not only that, but many classic and 343 weapons having been totally replaced in a game that is seemingly meant to be a reboot or celebration of Halo and that is confusing unless you consider that they are saving it for later updates. IE: classic shotgun among other examples. Personally I am expecting at some point, themed updates such as an eventual reintroduction to promethean weapons, classic weapons, reach weapons, new weapons etc.

My question is:

Do you think the sandbox of Infinite is better with less weapons or more weapons? Does ‘muddying down’ the sandbox really matter? Do you care about sandbox redundancy?

I personally would like to see as many guns in the game as possible and am totally on board with maximum fan service within reason. Maps and playlists can always be adjusted and ranked can easily be accommodated based on what spawns on the map. A lot of people care about redundancy, I guess I don’t. Objectively speaking Halo 3 had a decent amount of redundancy once you imagine a world without a BR, but I would not consider the sandbox watered down. Does it really matter how many guns are within the game?

#2

Sandbox redundancy is a joke for Halo, Halo has always had tons of redundancy even from CE so that will never change (its because of the different enemy classes, so they end up making extra versions of every gun and put them into the other class)

more weapons/enemies the better in my opinion, now this does not magically mean that if 343i put out a horrible enemy or a badly designed gun that its a positive, but what matters here is that if a weapon doesn’t work well you can just take it out or readjust it so ultimately its never bad for Halo.

#3

The main reason I care about minimizing sandbox redundancy is that it forces 343 to get creative with new additions.

While Infinite has a smaller weapon sandbox than Halo 4 or 5, it does feature the widest variety of things you can do with that sandbox, because there is significantly more uniqueness across it.

There are still some areas that overlap. The Shock Rifle kind of falls too close to both the Sniper and Skewer if you ask me. But it’s a heck of a lot more unique than the Beam Rifle. And while effort was clearly made to distinguish the Shotgun, Sword and Hammer, the letter two still boil down to “get close, press RT, get kill”. And if the classic shotgun came back it would just be that too.

#4

> 2533274810177460;3:
> The main reason I care about minimizing sandbox redundancy is that it forces 343 to get creative with new additions.
>
> While Infinite has a smaller weapon sandbox than Halo 4 or 5, it does feature the widest variety of things you can do with that sandbox, because there is significantly more uniqueness across it.
>
> There are still some areas that overlap. The Shock Rifle kind of falls too close to both the Sniper and Skewer if you ask me. But it’s a heck of a lot more unique than the Beam Rifle. And while effort was clearly made to distinguish the Shotgun, Sword and Hammer, the letter two still boil down to “get close, press RT, get kill”. And if the classic shotgun came back it would just be that too.

  1. Halo has always had tons of redundancy, I’m sick of people pretending that 343i were the ones that came out of nowhere and interfered with the perfect sandbox of 3/Reach. Most obvious example is BR, Carbine, Magnum/pistol, Needle Rifle, DMR, basically like 5 or 6 guns that essentially do the same exact thing and people just overlook it because nostalgia.

  2. The arguments you use aren’t even good, Shock Rifle is a long range precision weapon akin to a sniper rifle yes, but does anyone seriously believe its closest to Skewer/Sniper? Those are one hit kills. Shock rifle is closest pound for pound to Focus Rifle, or Sentinel Beam, or maybe even the Binary Rifle if you examine things.

Heatwave is pretty much just the Scattershot and yet no one mentions that, its like people never played 4/5 or something idk.

  1. What really matters is whether or not the weapon is fun to use/fight against, I don’t care one iota if weapon is redundant, what I care about is if it plays redundant, some food for thought.
#5

> 2533274845983347;4:
> > 2533274810177460;3:
> > The main reason I care about minimizing sandbox redundancy is that it forces 343 to get creative with new additions.
> >
> > While Infinite has a smaller weapon sandbox than Halo 4 or 5, it does feature the widest variety of things you can do with that sandbox, because there is significantly more uniqueness across it.
> >
> > There are still some areas that overlap. The Shock Rifle kind of falls too close to both the Sniper and Skewer if you ask me. But it’s a heck of a lot more unique than the Beam Rifle. And while effort was clearly made to distinguish the Shotgun, Sword and Hammer, the letter two still boil down to “get close, press RT, get kill”. And if the classic shotgun came back it would just be that too.
>
> 1. Halo has always had tons of redundancy, I’m sick of people pretending that 343i were the ones that came out of nowhere and interfered with the perfect sandbox of 3/Reach. Most obvious example is BR, Carbine, Magnum/pistol, Needle Rifle, DMR, basically like 5 or 6 guns that essentially do the same exact thing and people just overlook it because nostalgia.
>
> 2. The arguments you use aren’t even good, Shock Rifle is a long range precision weapon akin to a sniper rifle yes, but does anyone seriously believe its closest to Skewer/Sniper? Those are one hit kills. Shock rifle is closest pound for pound to Focus Rifle, or Sentinel Beam, or maybe even the Binary Rifle if you examine things.
>
> Heatwave is pretty much just the Scattershot and yet no one mentions that, its like people never played 4/5 or something idk.
>
> 3. What really matters is whether or not the weapon is fun to use/fight against, I don’t care one iota if weapon is redundant, what I care about is if it plays redundant, some food for thought.

IDK where you get the impression that people uphold the sandbox of Halo 3 or Reach as the pinnacle of Halo sandbox with no redundancy. Part of the entire dual wield debate is how dual wielding introduced a slew of redundant weapons in Halo 3 especially with how they were handled. Halo has had redundancy and its been mostly criticized because the meta between the games never got shaken up. The carbine didn’t offer anything that actually made it a viable option against the BR. Why shouldn’t it be addressed? Part of what makes an Arena game fun is picking up weapons all over the map and them actually being usable without being outright killing machines. The sandbox of Halo exploded after Halo 3, and Halo 5 had the largest bloat of all time, and a large majority of the kills in the game after the tuning patch have been magnum kills because while there are several weapons in the sandbox, they don’t offer a functionality that makes them even worth picking up. Many of Halo 5’s weapons are simple differences like fire mode, and a large portion of their usability comes from lethality alone.

Halo has a lot of problems with redundancy, and I applaud 343 for making a weapon sandbox that is largely free of redundancy, although there are some weapons that mechanically are too similar, such as the Commando and AR, even though their niches are pretty spread apart. Most weapons offer some mechanic that sets them apart from the others giving them a utility role. Weapons like the Disruptor’s DoT, or the Cindershot effectively being a mortar, or the heatwave fire modes switching allowing it to be an infinite-range shotgun (The Heatwave is not just the scattershot, it’s similar, but mechanically and use-wise it is entirely different. It can’t even one-shot a player, but it’s effective range is gigantic in the right hands).

The sandbox is much better off when 343 takes the time to implement creative weapons that not only are fun to use, but interact with other things in the sandbox well. The Skewer is a great example because instead of outright destroying most vehicles, it’ll throw them off course. It’s fun to get shot by, it makes things fly all over and interacts with the physics well. The Mangler having bullet drop is unique to the weapon, and offsets the power of the weapon by the skill needed to use it effectively. We don’t need the Carbine, or the DMR, or the Light Rifle. They don’t do anything unique. The Lightrifle is the only unique one, and really it’s feature just lets it switch between two already existing weapons.

Think of how many clips we’ve already seen from Infinite involving not only the equipment and it’s awesome moments, but also the weapons. Skewer Launching? Those kinds of discoveries just add to the longevity of the game. I hope 343 holds their ground on the sandbox, because it’s the most solid sandbox for the most part in a long, long time. There are certainly nit picks, and for example, I’m not sure why they opted for bloom on several weapons, but the roles and the mechanics of these weapons are rock-solid. If 343 adds more weapons as time goes on, I only hope they’re as unique as what we’re getting now.

#6

Looking for where any classic Halo fan has called H3 or Reach the pinnacle of anything besides fully featured launches, UI design, and custom game options.

#7

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> > 2533274845983347;4:
> > > 2533274810177460;3:
> > >
> >
> > 1. Halo has always had tons of redundancy, I’m sick of people pretending that 343i were the ones that came out of nowhere and interfered with the perfect sandbox of 3/Reach. Most obvious example is BR, Carbine, Magnum/pistol, Needle Rifle, DMR, basically like 5 or 6 guns that essentially do the same exact thing and people just overlook it because nostalgia.
> >
> > 2. The arguments you use aren’t even good, Shock Rifle is a long range precision weapon akin to a sniper rifle yes, but does anyone seriously believe its closest to Skewer/Sniper? Those are one hit kills. Shock rifle is closest pound for pound to Focus Rifle, or Sentinel Beam, or maybe even the Binary Rifle if you examine things.
> >
> > Heatwave is pretty much just the Scattershot and yet no one mentions that, its like people never played 4/5 or something idk.
> >
> > 3. What really matters is whether or not the weapon is fun to use/fight against, I don’t care one iota if weapon is redundant, what I care about is if it plays redundant, some food for thought.
>
> IDK where you get the impression that people uphold the sandbox of Halo 3 or Reach as the pinnacle of Halo sandbox with no redundancy. Part of the entire dual wield debate is how dual wielding introduced a slew of redundant weapons in Halo 3 especially with how they were handled. Halo has had redundancy and its been mostly criticized because the meta between the games never got shaken up. The carbine didn’t offer anything that actually made it a viable option against the BR. Why shouldn’t it be addressed? Part of what makes an Arena game fun is picking up weapons all over the map and them actually being usable without being outright killing machines. The sandbox of Halo exploded after Halo 3, and Halo 5 had the largest bloat of all time, and a large majority of the kills in the game after the tuning patch have been magnum kills because while there are several weapons in the sandbox, they don’t offer a functionality that makes them even worth picking up. Many of Halo 5’s weapons are simple differences like fire mode, and a large portion of their usability comes from lethality alone.
>
> Halo has a lot of problems with redundancy, and I applaud 343 for making a weapon sandbox that is largely free of redundancy, although there are some weapons that mechanically are too similar, such as the Commando and AR, even though their niches are pretty spread apart. Most weapons offer some mechanic that sets them apart from the others giving them a utility role. Weapons like the Disruptor’s DoT, or the Cindershot effectively being a mortar, or the heatwave fire modes switching allowing it to be an infinite-range shotgun (The Heatwave is not just the scattershot, it’s similar, but mechanically and use-wise it is entirely different. It can’t even one-shot a player, but it’s effective range is gigantic in the right hands).
>
> The sandbox is much better off when 343 takes the time to implement creative weapons that not only are fun to use, but interact with other things in the sandbox well. The Skewer is a great example because instead of outright destroying most vehicles, it’ll throw them off course. It’s fun to get shot by, it makes things fly all over and interacts with the physics well. The Mangler having bullet drop is unique to the weapon, and offsets the power of the weapon by the skill needed to use it effectively. We don’t need the Carbine, or the DMR, or the Light Rifle. They don’t do anything unique. The Lightrifle is the only unique one, and really it’s feature just lets it switch between two already existing weapons.
>
> Think of how many clips we’ve already seen from Infinite involving not only the equipment and it’s awesome moments, but also the weapons. Skewer Launching? Those kinds of discoveries just add to the longevity of the game. I hope 343 holds their ground on the sandbox, because it’s the most solid sandbox for the most part in a long, long time. There are certainly nit picks, and for example, I’m not sure why they opted for bloom on several weapons, but the roles and the mechanics of these weapons are rock-solid. If 343 adds more weapons as time goes on, I only hope they’re as unique as what we’re getting now.

You kinda just did say that past Halos were superior and had less redundancy, and using Halo 5 is an extreme stretch as all the weapon variants obviously were meant to support the P2W microtransaction Warzone mode.

Yes equipment (instead of them just giving everyone armor abilities) makes for interesting gameplay design, but I wasn’t arguing Halo 3 equipment versus Halo Infinite equipment, I was arguing 343i weapon design versus Bungie weapon design.

I’m going to say this again so that people understand it, Halo (as a series) has always and always will have tons of redundancy in its sandbox, Halo has roughly 4 or 5 factions (UNSC, Covenant, Prometheans, Brutes, you could include flood if you wanted to) and so as developers it is extremely difficult to make enough weapons to fill out all the different enemy types in Halo, this is not a concern with most series and yet I would probably still argue that Halo also has tons of unique and interesting weapons whereas you play a game like CoD or Battlefield and its much more straightforward.

Also, 343i are almost certain to bring back tons of the stuff from 5, though I don’t know if a Warzone mode is a given this time around, like I expect a lot of the fan favorites (probably all assuming it lasts for 10 years as they say) to make a return to Infinite, pray that we someday see a UNSC water vehicle.

#8

the thing to consider is that each map in infinite has less weapon spans then past halos. So them adding to the sandbox really wont matter given how curated each map can be using the weapon pad spawn system. So, while there will be redundencies, it wont feel like it in the match itself.

#9

I think a smaller weapon pool is generally good and I’m fully, wholly welcome to new weapons being added over time. But they need to be good additions instead of just nostalgia bait.

#10

There will always be redundancy in sandbox. This is inevitable.

Even in games since the past, there has always been redundancy, trying to balance sandbox so that all weapons are equally powerful is impossible and will sooner kill the sandbox than actually help it. (because all weapons will eventually balance out to be different flavours of the same weapon)

What older Halos have done is to simply balance weapons based on effective range when it comes to weapon strength.
Examples are :
Super close range are usually populated by 1-2 shot weapons like Shotgun, Energy Sword, Hammer, Mauler.
Mid range to close range is largely dominated by Shield stripping weapons or weapons with rather weird mechanics. Examples are the AR, Plasma Rifle, Plasma Pistol, SMGs, Needler, Spiker, Concussion, Grenade Launcher.
Mid to Long range are usually populated by precision weapons like BR, Carbine, Pistol (CE), Sniper which reward kills from aiming well.
Power weapons like Rocket, Spartan Laser, Fuel Rod are stronger because they are contested weapons.

Now what worries me the most is that Infinite leans way too much toward the Precision/Mid range sort of weapons.
BR, Commando, Sniper, Shock Rifle, Stalker Rifle, Mangler(?). Honorary Mention : Pulse Carbine

Holy -Yoink-, look at how many precisions we have right off the bat already.
I really worry about balance because AR starts on BTB is gonna be HELL if your enemy manages to control all the ranged weapon spawns.
Yea sure AR can shred some ridiculous ranges from far mid range, but can it really match the power of the Precision weapons from half map?

#11

> 2533274845983347;4:
> > 2533274810177460;3:
> > The main reason I care about minimizing sandbox redundancy is that it forces 343 to get creative with new additions.
> >
> > While Infinite has a smaller weapon sandbox than Halo 4 or 5, it does feature the widest variety of things you can do with that sandbox, because there is significantly more uniqueness across it.
> >
> > There are still some areas that overlap. The Shock Rifle kind of falls too close to both the Sniper and Skewer if you ask me. But it’s a heck of a lot more unique than the Beam Rifle. And while effort was clearly made to distinguish the Shotgun, Sword and Hammer, the letter two still boil down to “get close, press RT, get kill”. And if the classic shotgun came back it would just be that too.
>
> 1. Halo has always had tons of redundancy, I’m sick of people pretending that 343i were the ones that came out of nowhere and interfered with the perfect sandbox of 3/Reach. Most obvious example is BR, Carbine, Magnum/pistol, Needle Rifle, DMR, basically like 5 or 6 guns that essentially do the same exact thing and people just overlook it because nostalgia.
>
> 2. The arguments you use aren’t even good, Shock Rifle is a long range precision weapon akin to a sniper rifle yes, but does anyone seriously believe its closest to Skewer/Sniper? Those are one hit kills. Shock rifle is closest pound for pound to Focus Rifle, or Sentinel Beam, or maybe even the Binary Rifle if you examine things.
>
> Heatwave is pretty much just the Scattershot and yet no one mentions that, its like people never played 4/5 or something idk.
>
> 3. What really matters is whether or not the weapon is fun to use/fight against, I don’t care one iota if weapon is redundant, what I care about is if it plays redundant, some food for thought.

I agree with everything except that the scattershot is pretty much the heat wave. Its similar but omg H5 scattershot was scary while the heatwave is kinda weak. Its like the one meme where you fight the boss and it was super hard but when you unlock the said boss its really weak and not viable. (also the heatvae has that cool fire mode)

#12

> 2533274845983347;4:
> > 2533274810177460;3:
> > The main reason I care about minimizing sandbox redundancy is that it forces 343 to get creative with new additions.
> >
> > While Infinite has a smaller weapon sandbox than Halo 4 or 5, it does feature the widest variety of things you can do with that sandbox, because there is significantly more uniqueness across it.
> >
> > There are still some areas that overlap. The Shock Rifle kind of falls too close to both the Sniper and Skewer if you ask me. But it’s a heck of a lot more unique than the Beam Rifle. And while effort was clearly made to distinguish the Shotgun, Sword and Hammer, the letter two still boil down to “get close, press RT, get kill”. And if the classic shotgun came back it would just be that too.
>
> 1. Halo has always had tons of redundancy, I’m sick of people pretending that 343i were the ones that came out of nowhere and interfered with the perfect sandbox of 3/Reach. Most obvious example is BR, Carbine, Magnum/pistol, Needle Rifle, DMR, basically like 5 or 6 guns that essentially do the same exact thing and people just overlook it because nostalgia.
>
> 2. The arguments you use aren’t even good, Shock Rifle is a long range precision weapon akin to a sniper rifle yes, but does anyone seriously believe its closest to Skewer/Sniper? Those are one hit kills. Shock rifle is closest pound for pound to Focus Rifle, or Sentinel Beam, or maybe even the Binary Rifle if you examine things.
>
> Heatwave is pretty much just the Scattershot and yet no one mentions that, its like people never played 4/5 or something idk.
>
> 3. What really matters is whether or not the weapon is fun to use/fight against, I don’t care one iota if weapon is redundant, what I care about is if it plays redundant, some food for thought.

It’s a more controlled scattershot which is what was needed, more control and precision. It should be both not redundant (add another dimension to gameplay) and be fun to shoot / shot at.

As for point 1. CE just had the magnum, 2 had the BR and Carbine, the pistol was worthless, not to the fault of the community but the dev. The carbine is a pick-up and it’s function is more anti-BR due to its high fire rate knocking BR out of scope, similar but at most there’s 1 other weapon that functions a nudge differently. Halo 3 it was the exact same as 2, BR and Carbine and a redundant pistol. Reach was basically the same but trade the BR and Carbine for DMR and needle rifle, pistol is a nudge stronger but still worthless in 4v4. The Bungie games at most had a weapon idea and a covenant clone the functioned differently, that’s much less bad than the redundancy and/or overlap found in 343 games.

#13

They should be thinking in terms of play and game sandbox.

The play sandbox should be tight. Each weapon on each map should play differently - with minimal overlap. Ranked and Social playlists need a degree of consistency.

The overall game sandbox can, and should be huge. Overlapping of function or form is inconsequential - incorporating old, new, and even experimental weapons. Maybe even some customisable ones as well. The imagination of Custom games / Forgers should not be constrained.

Eg. The Infinite Sidekick… should be the only weapon of that type and form in the play sandbox. But the game should have all the pistols from CE to 5 available for custom shenanigans. Same with the Bulldog vs classic Shotty. And so on.

#14

> 2585548714655118;13:
> They should be thinking in terms of play and game sandbox.
>
> The play sandbox should be tight. Each weapon on each map should play differently - with minimal overlap. Ranked and Social playlists need a degree of consistency.
>
> The overall game sandbox can, and should be huge. Overlapping of function or form is inconsequential - incorporating old, new, and even experimental weapons. Maybe even some customisable ones as well. The imagination of Custom games / Forgers should not be constrained.
>
> Eg. The Infinite Sidekick… should be the only weapon of that type and form in the play sandbox. But the game should have all the pistols from CE to 5 available for custom shenanigans. Same with the Bulldog vs classic Shotty. And so on.

That or if custom games where to take the next step in creativity allowing the ‘play’ sandbox weapons to have many modifiable traits which alter how the weapons function, anything that allows for fine alterations help make great custom games.

#15

All you bickering over sandbox act as if a map should be populated by the majority of the weapons available in the game. Halo in its best, most classic, form has always been about equipping yourself (whether it be a spawn weapon or placing the weapon in specific locations) with a strong weapon that can be used in all ranges but not overpowering in any of those ranges as compared to “control” weapons… then, engaging fights in 2 or 3 power positions to control the stronger weapons which everyone wants to gain an advantage with (ie 1-shot or 2-shot kill weapons). Historically, there was always 1 or 2 Snipers, a few Shotguns, and a Rocket.

Even in HCE in its original form on XBox, it was this way. M6D didn’t completely dominate Shotgun or AR in their effective ranges, given player’s skill level at those ranges, and it didn’t dominate a Rocket at middle range… and it didn’t dominate a Sniper at most ranges. Again, dependent on the player’s skill level with those weapons at those ranges. Bungie did screw up some things in that game, however, such as with the Plasma-based weapons which were not typically useful aside to Campaign (when you are out of ammo of human weapons!)

Sorry to say, but Halo has never been an Arena shooter which places all weapons in its sandbox (for variety) just so you can have unique options on the map; the weapons placed on the map have always had a reason, regardless of their redundancy, and Halo did not invent this idea. The Carbine was placed on maps in the same way as BRs were, but if you want things to not be redundant, then you would actually create less variety. This is because now you place exclusively the same mid-range weapon in places on the maps that is beneficial to the player, rather than placing one option on a map and another option on another.

Now, 343i didn’t do a terrible job on the Infinite sandbox options available in the game (there are bigger problems with the weapons). They just need to go BR starts though, so we can enjoy the potential immersion the new “control” weapons provide, with more strong close-ranged, mid-ranged, and long-ranged options than we’ve seen before. Their solution to sandbox balance: make the AR like the H3 BR!

#16

> 2533274836395701;12:
> > 2533274845983347;4:
> > > 2533274810177460;3:
> > > The main reason I care about minimizing sandbox redundancy is that it forces 343 to get creative with new additions.
> > >
> > > While Infinite has a smaller weapon sandbox than Halo 4 or 5, it does feature the widest variety of things you can do with that sandbox, because there is significantly more uniqueness across it.
> > >
> > > There are still some areas that overlap. The Shock Rifle kind of falls too close to both the Sniper and Skewer if you ask me. But it’s a heck of a lot more unique than the Beam Rifle. And while effort was clearly made to distinguish the Shotgun, Sword and Hammer, the letter two still boil down to “get close, press RT, get kill”. And if the classic shotgun came back it would just be that too.
> >
> > 1. Halo has always had tons of redundancy, I’m sick of people pretending that 343i were the ones that came out of nowhere and interfered with the perfect sandbox of 3/Reach. Most obvious example is BR, Carbine, Magnum/pistol, Needle Rifle, DMR, basically like 5 or 6 guns that essentially do the same exact thing and people just overlook it because nostalgia.
> >
> > 2. The arguments you use aren’t even good, Shock Rifle is a long range precision weapon akin to a sniper rifle yes, but does anyone seriously believe its closest to Skewer/Sniper? Those are one hit kills. Shock rifle is closest pound for pound to Focus Rifle, or Sentinel Beam, or maybe even the Binary Rifle if you examine things.
> >
> > Heatwave is pretty much just the Scattershot and yet no one mentions that, its like people never played 4/5 or something idk.
> >
> > 3. What really matters is whether or not the weapon is fun to use/fight against, I don’t care one iota if weapon is redundant, what I care about is if it plays redundant, some food for thought.
>
> It’s a more controlled scattershot which is what was needed, more control and precision. It should be both not redundant (add another dimension to gameplay) and be fun to shoot / shot at.
>
> As for point 1. CE just had the magnum, 2 had the BR and Carbine, the pistol was worthless, not to the fault of the community but the dev. The carbine is a pick-up and it’s function is more anti-BR due to its high fire rate knocking BR out of scope, similar but at most there’s 1 other weapon that functions a nudge differently. Halo 3 it was the exact same as 2, BR and Carbine and a redundant pistol. Reach was basically the same but trade the BR and Carbine for DMR and needle rifle, pistol is a nudge stronger but still worthless in 4v4. The Bungie games at most had a weapon idea and a covenant clone the functioned differently, that’s much less bad than the redundancy and/or overlap found in 343 games.

To only compare the Halos based off of precision rifles is a bit misleading; Beam rifle, Sentinel beam, Spiker, Spike/flame nade, etc. lots of redundancy that people overlook because Halo 1-3 were awesome. Frankly I feel that Reach was a huge exception, where they actually started coming up with some unique weapon designs, but I digress.

Yes Bungie didn’t have as much redundancy, its because there is this type of enemy called the prometheans that came about in Halo 4/5, or did you forget? Again, the redundancy is mainly a result of all the different classes of enemies in Halo, has very very little to do with the actual company behind said enemy. Now if you want to argue that Prometheans were terrible and that they should have never been in Halo then fine that makes sense, but lets not pretend that if Bungie had been in charge of 4/5 it would’ve been any different, they were pretty much already running out of ideas with 2/3 so hard to imagine them being any better realistically than 343i as far as weapon design is concerned.

Overall 343i are pretty impressive as far as weapon/map design is concerned, just be happy they aren’t a lazy company that never comes up with new ideas.

#17

> 2533274864647531;1:
> Although most of the weapons currently presented in the flights were fairly viable and had unique use cases, it really got me thinking about what the weapon sandbox will look like a year from now… post launch.
>
> Based on everything we know about Infinite being a seasonal live service game, prior history with Halo 5 updates, etc we can easily assume there will be many new weapons included in the sandbox in the future. Not only that, but many classic and 343 weapons having been totally replaced in a game that is seemingly meant to be a reboot or celebration of Halo and that is confusing unless you consider that they are saving it for later updates. IE: classic shotgun among other examples. Personally I am expecting at some point, themed updates such as an eventual reintroduction to promethean weapons, classic weapons, reach weapons, new weapons etc.
>
> My question is:
>
> Do you think the sandbox of Infinite is better with less weapons or more weapons? Does ‘muddying down’ the sandbox really matter? Do you care about sandbox redundancy? I personally would like to see as many guns in the game as possible and am totally on board with maximum fan service within reason. Maps and playlists can always be adjusted and ranked can easily be accommodated based on what spawns on the map. A lot of people care about redundancy, I guess I don’t. Objectively speaking Halo 3 had a decent amount of redundancy once you imagine a world without a BR, but I would not consider the sandbox watered down. Does it really matter how many guns are within the game?

Sandbox redundancy isn’t an issue. In fact, I personally think that the focus on the sandbox and the balance therein is just a bit over the top. Look at Halo CE, it was hugely unbalanced, but it was a blast.

Maybe this is a hot take… but guns aren’t meant to be balanced. The obsession over balance for multiplayer can absolutely ruin the campaign. The shotgun was amazing in CE, it felt so good to blast the flood with it, and if it was “balanced” for multiplayer, it wouldn’t have been as fun in SP. Personally I prioritize single player, but that’s just me.

#18

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> > 2533274836395701;12:
> > > 2533274845983347;4:
> > > > 2533274810177460;3:
> > > > The main reason I care about minimizing sandbox redundancy is that it forces 343 to get creative with new additions.
> > > >
> > > > While Infinite has a smaller weapon sandbox than Halo 4 or 5, it does feature the widest variety of things you can do with that sandbox, because there is significantly more uniqueness across it.
> > > >
> > > > There are still some areas that overlap. The Shock Rifle kind of falls too close to both the Sniper and Skewer if you ask me. But it’s a heck of a lot more unique than the Beam Rifle. And while effort was clearly made to distinguish the Shotgun, Sword and Hammer, the letter two still boil down to “get close, press RT, get kill”. And if the classic shotgun came back it would just be that too.
> > >
> > > 1. Halo has always had tons of redundancy, I’m sick of people pretending that 343i were the ones that came out of nowhere and interfered with the perfect sandbox of 3/Reach. Most obvious example is BR, Carbine, Magnum/pistol, Needle Rifle, DMR, basically like 5 or 6 guns that essentially do the same exact thing and people just overlook it because nostalgia.
> > >
> > > 2. The arguments you use aren’t even good, Shock Rifle is a long range precision weapon akin to a sniper rifle yes, but does anyone seriously believe its closest to Skewer/Sniper? Those are one hit kills. Shock rifle is closest pound for pound to Focus Rifle, or Sentinel Beam, or maybe even the Binary Rifle if you examine things.
> > >
> > > Heatwave is pretty much just the Scattershot and yet no one mentions that, its like people never played 4/5 or something idk.
> > >
> > > 3. What really matters is whether or not the weapon is fun to use/fight against, I don’t care one iota if weapon is redundant, what I care about is if it plays redundant, some food for thought.
> >
> > It’s a more controlled scattershot which is what was needed, more control and precision. It should be both not redundant (add another dimension to gameplay) and be fun to shoot / shot at.
> >
> > As for point 1. CE just had the magnum, 2 had the BR and Carbine, the pistol was worthless, not to the fault of the community but the dev. The carbine is a pick-up and it’s function is more anti-BR due to its high fire rate knocking BR out of scope, similar but at most there’s 1 other weapon that functions a nudge differently. Halo 3 it was the exact same as 2, BR and Carbine and a redundant pistol. Reach was basically the same but trade the BR and Carbine for DMR and needle rifle, pistol is a nudge stronger but still worthless in 4v4. The Bungie games at most had a weapon idea and a covenant clone the functioned differently, that’s much less bad than the redundancy and/or overlap found in 343 games.
>
> To only compare the Halos based off of precision rifles is a bit misleading; Beam rifle, Sentinel beam, Spiker, Spike/flame nade, etc. lots of redundancy that people overlook because Halo 1-3 were awesome. Frankly I feel that Reach was a huge exception, where they actually started coming up with some unique weapon designs, but I digress.
>
> Yes Bungie didn’t have as much redundancy, its because there is this type of enemy called the prometheans that came about in Halo 4/5, or did you forget? Again, the redundancy is mainly a result of all the different classes of enemies in Halo, has very very little to do with the actual company behind said enemy. Now if you want to argue that Prometheans were terrible and that they should have never been in Halo then fine that makes sense, but lets not pretend that if Bungie had been in charge of 4/5 it would’ve been any different, they were pretty much already running out of ideas with 2/3 so hard to imagine them being any better realistically than 343i as far as weapon design is concerned.
>
> Overall 343i are pretty impressive as far as weapon/map design is concerned, just be happy they aren’t a lazy company that never comes up with new ideas.

I may as well be nitpicky but the sentinel beam functions differently than a sniper, look at quake, a sniper (railgun) functions differently to a longer killtime beam (lightning gun) the only weapon that functioned like it was the focus rifle in Reach which was solo. Weapon uniqueness and role redundancy was not an issue in Bungie Halo, weak and useless weapons were. Reach did have some great ideas and it’s a shame the grenade launcher hasn’t returned. I wouldn’t say they ran out of ideas in 2 and 3

Prometheans are very forgettable, but look at the covenant, they had many unique weapons that had no analog to human weaponry. Whereas the Prometheans?
Binary - 1sk sniper
Incin cannon - rocket with more radius and splash in 4 then made more awkward and tracking in 5
scattershot - lottery shotgun
boltshot - OP lottery mauler in 4, weird needler / BR hybrid in 5
pulse grenade - useless power drain
suppressor - AR / plasma rifle hybrid
light rifle - BR / DMR hybrid
Compare it to the Covenant weapon set which when it had an analog gave a new dimension
(AR) Plasma rifle - shield melter, slowed in CE
(AR) Needler - High ROF, homing and explosive
(Sniper) Beam rifle - High ROF, overheating to negate spam
(Pistol) Plasma pistol - homing, stripped shields
(BR) Carbine - High ROF, accurate
etc etc. The entire Promethean weapon set was just human weapons stepping on the toes of Covenant weapon traits with the addition of low risk high reward killtimes, randomness and awkward firing mechanics. They weren’t fun to shoot or to get shot at and some other weapons they added like the SAW. Even Infinite is doing the same thing with shock weapons taking a role that existed and the previous weapons to do it now in an awkward place having there role stripped and not much to replace it with. I don’t think that’s impressive at all when legacy weapons roles are made more awkward due to odd decision making and the new weapons to take its place feeling more awkward and less balanced than before. That or there’s a direct clone that does the function better but in a less fair way (most of H4 weapons) or just worse.

That’s on the topic of weapon balance, I don’t see how anything from 4 or 5’s map design could be considered impressive. Even in this beta, the BTB map layout wasn’t great and Bazaaar wasn’t a good map. Recharge and LiveFire were good but not impressive. I think they are a nudge lazy, they do enough to change the legacy gameplay so that it doesn’t feel like classic Halo but no more than that so it doesn’t ever feel fresh. The 4 and 5 campaigns just felt like a Halo campaign with all the good bits taken out, the maps feel like Halo maps without the personality, colour or distinction and the weapons feel the same too but perform worse. 343s main positive quality is that they’re hands on, but they aren’t exactly pioneers. Especially when the main selling point of Inifinte in a roundabout way is “We won’t do the same screw-ups as our last 2 games and are going to focus more on things people enjoyed before we changed them”

#19

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> > > > > The main reason I care about minimizing sandbox redundancy is that it forces 343 to get creative with new additions.
> > > > >
> > > > > While Infinite has a smaller weapon sandbox than Halo 4 or 5, it does feature the widest variety of things you can do with that sandbox, because there is significantly more uniqueness across it.
> > > > >
> > > > > There are still some areas that overlap. The Shock Rifle kind of falls too close to both the Sniper and Skewer if you ask me. But it’s a heck of a lot more unique than the Beam Rifle. And while effort was clearly made to distinguish the Shotgun, Sword and Hammer, the letter two still boil down to “get close, press RT, get kill”. And if the classic shotgun came back it would just be that too.
> > > >
> > > > 1. Halo has always had tons of redundancy, I’m sick of people pretending that 343i were the ones that came out of nowhere and interfered with the perfect sandbox of 3/Reach. Most obvious example is BR, Carbine, Magnum/pistol, Needle Rifle, DMR, basically like 5 or 6 guns that essentially do the same exact thing and people just overlook it because nostalgia.
> > > >
> > > > 2. The arguments you use aren’t even good, Shock Rifle is a long range precision weapon akin to a sniper rifle yes, but does anyone seriously believe its closest to Skewer/Sniper? Those are one hit kills. Shock rifle is closest pound for pound to Focus Rifle, or Sentinel Beam, or maybe even the Binary Rifle if you examine things.
> > > >
> > > > Heatwave is pretty much just the Scattershot and yet no one mentions that, its like people never played 4/5 or something idk.
> > > >
> > > > 3. What really matters is whether or not the weapon is fun to use/fight against, I don’t care one iota if weapon is redundant, what I care about is if it plays redundant, some food for thought.
> >
> > To only compare the Halos based off of precision rifles is a bit misleading; Beam rifle, Sentinel beam, Spiker, Spike/flame nade, etc. lots of redundancy that people overlook because Halo 1-3 were awesome. Frankly I feel that Reach was a huge exception, where they actually started coming up with some unique weapon designs, but I digress.
> >
> > Yes Bungie didn’t have as much redundancy, its because there is this type of enemy called the prometheans that came about in Halo 4/5, or did you forget? Again, the redundancy is mainly a result of all the different classes of enemies in Halo, has very very little to do with the actual company behind said enemy. Now if you want to argue that Prometheans were terrible and that they should have never been in Halo then fine that makes sense, but lets not pretend that if Bungie had been in charge of 4/5 it would’ve been any different, they were pretty much already running out of ideas with 2/3 so hard to imagine them being any better realistically than 343i as far as weapon design is concerned.
> >
> > Overall 343i are pretty impressive as far as weapon/map design is concerned, just be happy they aren’t a lazy company that never comes up with new ideas.
>
> I may as well be nitpicky but the sentinel beam functions differently than a sniper, look at quake, a sniper (railgun) functions differently to a longer killtime beam (lightning gun) the only weapon that functioned like it was the focus rifle in Reach which was solo. Weapon uniqueness and role redundancy was not an issue in Bungie Halo, weak and useless weapons were. Reach did have some great ideas and it’s a shame the grenade launcher hasn’t returned. I wouldn’t say they ran out of ideas in 2 and 3
>
> Prometheans are very forgettable, but look at the covenant, they had many unique weapons that had no analog to human weaponry. Whereas the Prometheans?
> Binary - 1sk sniper
> Incin cannon - rocket with more radius and splash in 4 then made more awkward and tracking in 5
> scattershot - lottery shotgun
> boltshot - OP lottery mauler in 4, weird needler / BR hybrid in 5
> pulse grenade - useless power drain
> suppressor - AR / plasma rifle hybrid
> light rifle - BR / DMR hybrid
> Compare it to the Covenant weapon set which when it had an analog gave a new dimension
> (AR) Plasma rifle - shield melter, slowed in CE
> (AR) Needler - High ROF, homing and explosive
> (Sniper) Beam rifle - High ROF, overheating to negate spam
> (Pistol) Plasma pistol - homing, stripped shields
> (BR) Carbine - High ROF, accurate
> etc etc. The entire Promethean weapon set was just human weapons stepping on the toes of Covenant weapon traits with the addition of low risk high reward killtimes, randomness and awkward firing mechanics. They weren’t fun to shoot or to get shot at and some other weapons they added like the SAW. Even Infinite is doing the same thing with shock weapons taking a role that existed and the previous weapons to do it now in an awkward place having there role stripped and not much to replace it with. I don’t think that’s impressive at all when legacy weapons roles are made more awkward due to odd decision making and the new weapons to take its place feeling more awkward and less balanced than before. That or there’s a direct clone that does the function better but in a less fair way (most of H4 weapons) or just worse.
>
> That’s on the topic of weapon balance, I don’t see how anything from 4 or 5’s map design could be considered impressive. Even in this beta, the BTB map layout wasn’t great and Bazaaar wasn’t a good map. Recharge and LiveFire were good but not impressive. I think they are a nudge lazy, they do enough to change the legacy gameplay so that it doesn’t feel like classic Halo but no more than that so it doesn’t ever feel fresh. The 4 and 5 campaigns just felt like a Halo campaign with all the good bits taken out, the maps feel like Halo maps without the personality, colour or distinction and the weapons feel the same too but perform worse. 343s main positive quality is that they’re hands on, but they aren’t exactly pioneers. Especially when the main selling point of Inifinte in a roundabout way is “We won’t do the same screw-ups as our last 2 games and are going to focus more on things people enjoyed before we changed them”

You lost all credibility when you praise the Beam rifle then pretend the Binary is any different, also Halo 5 maps were GOAT bro, again, you base everything off of nostalgia instead of using reason/logic.

I don’t like 343i, but they have proven they can make some exceptional weapons/maps and can even write a good story (Halo 4), their biggest downfall isn’t that they aren’t creative enough, its the exact opposite.

Edit: I call it the “nostalgia trap” people base everything off of nostalgia, don’t recognize that, then never bother trying to understand why they like or dislike something, this isn’t 2007, Halo is not the same, you are not the same. If you would like to argue with me more send me a DM, I am happy to converse with you but only if its constructive.

#20

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> > > > > 2533274845983347;4:
> > > > > > 2533274810177460;3:
> > > > > > The main reason I care about minimizing sandbox redundancy is that it forces 343 to get creative with new additions.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > While Infinite has a smaller weapon sandbox than Halo 4 or 5, it does feature the widest variety of things you can do with that sandbox, because there is significantly more uniqueness across it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There are still some areas that overlap. The Shock Rifle kind of falls too close to both the Sniper and Skewer if you ask me. But it’s a heck of a lot more unique than the Beam Rifle. And while effort was clearly made to distinguish the Shotgun, Sword and Hammer, the letter two still boil down to “get close, press RT, get kill”. And if the classic shotgun came back it would just be that too.
> > > > >
> > > > > 1. Halo has always had tons of redundancy, I’m sick of people pretending that 343i were the ones that came out of nowhere and interfered with the perfect sandbox of 3/Reach. Most obvious example is BR, Carbine, Magnum/pistol, Needle Rifle, DMR, basically like 5 or 6 guns that essentially do the same exact thing and people just overlook it because nostalgia.
> > > > >
> > > > > 2. The arguments you use aren’t even good, Shock Rifle is a long range precision weapon akin to a sniper rifle yes, but does anyone seriously believe its closest to Skewer/Sniper? Those are one hit kills. Shock rifle is closest pound for pound to Focus Rifle, or Sentinel Beam, or maybe even the Binary Rifle if you examine things.
> > > > >
> > > > > Heatwave is pretty much just the Scattershot and yet no one mentions that, its like people never played 4/5 or something idk.
> > > > >
> > > > > 3. What really matters is whether or not the weapon is fun to use/fight against, I don’t care one iota if weapon is redundant, what I care about is if it plays redundant, some food for thought.
>
> You lost all credibility when you praise the Beam rifle then pretend the Binary is any different, also Halo 5 maps were GOAT bro, again, you base everything off of nostalgia instead of using reason/logic.
>
> I don’t like 343i, but they have proven they can make some exceptional weapons/maps and can even write a good story (Halo 4), their biggest downfall isn’t that they aren’t creative enough, its the exact opposite.
>
> Edit: I call it the “nostalgia trap” people base everything off of nostalgia, don’t recognize that, then never bother trying to understand why they like or dislike something, this isn’t 2007, Halo is not the same, you are not the same. If you would like to argue with me more send me a DM, I am happy to converse with you but only if its constructive.

Nostalgia is a convenient way to dismiss someone’s argument without using reasoning or logic so that’s ironic. Which H5 map is GOAT? The closest I can think is plaza. Rig, Coliseum, Fathom and Eden / Empire are the only other notable ones and none have a good aesthetic, despite having clamber there’s little verticality and the layouts themselves are bland, safe and bland. Skyline was the only solid H4 map, Haven and Abandon were ok and that was it.

I wasn’t praising I was stating there’s a difference between slight redundancy and overlap with Covenant weapons, having a mirror weapon that does something completely different VS a weapon that adds nothing new beside doing something that already exists and creating balance problems, the Promethean weapon set essentially. 1sk sniper is bad whereas a high rof sniper is mildly redundant at best but not game breaking (only in 4 due to broken aim mechanics).

The H4 story wasn’t good beyond the Chief / Cortana storyline which has now backed them into a corner they’re still trying to get out of. Otherwise the Didact and Librarian weren’t explained well in game and Lasky, Del rio and Palmer weren’t good characters, Spartan ops didn’t have good storytelling either.

I think I thoroughly explain what I like and dislike and would rather not have a back and forth with someone whos only crutch is to blame nostalgia, treat them like a Dr Phil case study and gap, no thanks.

We will have to see what Infinite does, but I was there in 2012 and skeptical 9 years ago, H4 tanked for me and many others for reasons I can give, I was there during the MCC and H5 release also and again I disliked what they done for specific reasons, 7 and 6 years ago respectively. I know what I like hence why I occasionally post in this forum because I would rather do that then play 4 or 5. Reach had many issues but it was enough that I enjoyed it and wasn’t really on the forums.