The Ultimate Halsey/ethics/glasslands thread.

I was just taking a daily survey of the amount of Halsey’s ethics threads, or anything really having to do with the entirety of who is better or worse in The Universe. So I have decided to make an attempt to curb all that in threads where it doesn’t belong. I present to you the Ultimate Glasslands-relative good versus evil, Ethics vs. Ethics thread. The Idea is to take all of these spam threads and have all the arguments in this one single thread. No with all of these arguments here, we can have more on-topic discussions and Ideas, and if it gets bad, then we just send off-topic arguments and discussions here. What do you guys think of this Idea?

TL;DR: Post all off-topic ethics and etc. arguments here to eliminate clutter.

> I was just taking a daily survey of the amount of Halsey’s ethics threads, or anything really having to do with the entirety of who is better or worse in The Universe. So I have decided to make an attempt to curb all that in threads where it doesn’t belong. I present to you the Ultimate Glasslands-relative good versus evil, Ethics vs. Ethics thread. The Idea is to take all of these spam threads and have all the arguments in this one single thread. No with all of these arguments here, we can have more on-topic discussions and Ideas, and if it gets bad, then we just send off-topic arguments and discussions here. What do you guys think of this Idea?
>
> TL;DR: Post all off-topic ethics and etc. arguments here to eliminate clutter.

This will not work, people will continue to make their own threads about it.

After Grasslands, I’ve been hearing a lot of Halsey hate. Now, I feel like the people who actually like Halsey are the minority. Grasslands really just seemed to force a view of Halsey on the readers instead of going over her actions and letting the reader formulate their own opinion of her. I’m sure there are still plenty of people who are for Halsey. And I’m not so sure the Chief and Kelly and Fred and Linda are going to take too well to the person who has been their mother figure being locked up.

My opinions on Halsey

Working on the S-IV program on board the infinity is right where she belongs. And as far as due process goes, that’s out the window. As far as anyone outside a small circle within ONI knows, she’s dead, and that seems to be the way they want to keep it. Her atonement is working on another program of Spartans, only this time without the accolades that she was accustomed to with the S-II program. A fitting sentence for operating outside of her research and development parameters.

Essentially ONI’s motto is “by any means nessecary”, I didn’t say she would have a fitting position. More a consulting position than anything. Luckily “Thursday War” drops about a month before the H4 does. I honestly don’t think Halsey will be taking on the role of the pheonix rising in the next novel, maybe the third. You have to take into account that Halsey’s story is being used as a backdrop for a story of human introspective struggle, not just with her character but with most Traviss is presenting, and following the pattern that most good trilogies do, volume one sets the stage, volume two takes them to a deep dark place, then volume three is the pheonix rising and usually things a wrapped up in a nice neat little bow, sometimes with a small caveat scene that sparks ones imagination for the story moving past the initial trilogy. But I digress, Halsey has aloud herself to be put in the position she is in. And deep down she knows she deserves to be knocked down a peg or two for her actions, she even admits to it.

> > But I digress, Halsey has aloud herself to be put in the position she is in. And deep down she knows she deserves to be knocked down a peg or two for her actions, she even admits to it.
>
> How exactly did she put herself in the position she is now? Her real crime really only appears to be she upset Parandoksy. I still refuse to believe that Halsey “hiding” the flash clones from Maggie is the real reason she is mad at Halsey. Nothing ever suggested they were a secret. There would’ve had to be a lot of people involved to make all of that happen and it’s ridiculous to assume they all managed to keep it a huge secret with no slip-ups.
>
> So really, Halsey deserves to be taken down a page because Maggie dropped the ball on her job? In previous novels there was a delicate balance with Halsey and her feelings. Yes, she often reflected on everything she did, but she wasn’t some nervous, emotional wreak like we saw in Glasslands. Traviss just -Yoinked!- up.

I can tell you from personal experience. A person can only go on so long doing unethical things before they totally break down. The fact remains, even though they turned the tide of the war, even though they are the hero’s of the UNSC, and despite the fact that the ends may justify the means. When you tear off all the meat the fact remains that before they were Spartans they were children, living their lives as such, loved by mothers, fathers, sisters and brothers. They had families and homes that they loved, and in a single night all of that was taken from them, their worlds destroyed (figuratively) and their loved ones were none the wiser. These children were 6 years old, plucked in the night and taken away from everything they knew. Can you imagine how traumatic that was? Not to mention the devastation their unsuspecting families endured at the loss of their children to anomalous diseases shortly after this abduction. Sure the ends justified the means, but lives were destroyed in the process, she got to know each of these children on a personal level, and I can imagine the “what if” factor when she thought about what these children could have been would eventually weigh on her in a big way.

> I can tell you from personal experience. A person can only go on so long doing unethical things before they totally break down. The fact remains, even though they turned the tide of the war, even though they are the hero’s of the UNSC, and despite the fact that the ends may justify the means. When you tear off all the meat the fact remains that before they were Spartans they were children, living their lives as such, loved by mothers, fathers, sisters and brothers. They had families and homes that they loved, and in a single night all of that was taken from them, their worlds destroyed (figuratively) and their loved ones were none the wiser. These children were 6 years old, plucked in the night and taken away from everything they knew. Can you imagine how traumatic that was? Not to mention the devastation their unsuspecting families endured at the loss of their children to anomalous diseases shortly after this abduction. Sure the ends justified the means, but lives were destroyed in the process, she got to know each of these children on a personal level, and I can imagine the “what if” factor when she thought about what these children could have been would eventually weigh on her in a big way.

You’re not just “tearing off all the meat” – you’re ripping apart the metaphorical bone as well.

The SPARTAN-IIs were produced as a weapon to be used in a war that had already gone nuclear, with Innies having nuked a colony world and with implied nuke usage on the UNSC’s part as well. A few hundred lives were destroyed in a last-ditch effort to save the lives of billions. Lives were going to be destroyed, and painfully so. Halsey minimized the damage. She didn’t just ruin hundreds of lives randomly out of the blue; she hurt the few to save the many, and to ignore that fact is to completely and totally misunderstand and distort the situation.

Now, I’m sorta tired, so it’s not clear to me if you’re referring to what Halsey is or to how she feels. If you’re referring to how she feels, then you’re right: she should, and probably does, feel guilty… but she isn’t actually guilty – she isn’t in the wrong here.

She was willing to get her hands dirty, and I suspect that most of her detractors – not all, but most – condemn her actions because they aren’t willing to get their hands dirty. They need to rationalize that reluctance in order to reassure themselves that they’re morally right, and many of them seem to do so by treating the matter as black-and-white – such that getting one’s hands dirty in order to achieve what is ultimately the more morally-positive end becomes an offense in itself, almost as if Halsey “cheated” at doing good.

But that’s all just speculation and guesswork from someone who’s never been too good at getting in others’ shoes. :\

See I don’t see what pargonsky is doing as an issue. She’s dead as far as anyone knows but she’s being allowed to continue to serve in some capacity. I’m more referencing how she feels. As for the way Mendez acts towards her, he’s an old salt, not to mention most likely feels a little used. As for what’s coming her way, even in today’s military sometimes the ends justify the immediate means but consequences are doled out later when the dust settles.

It is the fact that maggie is solely condemning halsey for the flash clones and making a big deal about it and forgets that she and ackerson created suicide solders. which is now even more ludicrous since ONI DID have the funds for more Mjǫlnir but chose a worthless science project over the lives of children.

which is why people get bashed like hell when they try making halsey the bad guy when she didn’t do a damn thing wrong.

> See I don’t see what pargonsky is doing as an issue. She’s dead as far as anyone knows but she’s being allowed to continue to serve in some capacity. I’m more referencing how she feels. As for the way Mendez acts towards her, he’s an old salt, not to mention most likely feels a little used. <mark>As for what’s coming her way, even in today’s military sometimes the ends justify the immediate means but consequences are doled out later when the dust settles.</mark>

So Halsey does what ONI asked her to do…and so ONI will punish her for that…does that really make sense?

> > See I don’t see what pargonsky is doing as an issue. She’s dead as far as anyone knows but she’s being allowed to continue to serve in some capacity. I’m more referencing how she feels. As for the way Mendez acts towards her, he’s an old salt, not to mention most likely feels a little used. <mark>As for what’s coming her way, even in today’s military sometimes the ends justify the immediate means but consequences are doled out later when the dust settles.</mark>
>
> So Halsey does what ONI asked her to do…and so ONI will punish her for that…does that really make sense?

Not to mention the Spartan IIIs were critical for both wars while that cannot be said for the Spartan IIIs because we have no way of knowing how their actions directly impacted the war. Yes they did “buy time” but do we see any effect of that? We don’t have a story of a planet having time to be evacuated or a battle that was able to have reinforcements arrive due to the back up. All we have is a few explosions.

I want to try something new here. Has there ever been any canon source that says some of the things ONI is allowed and is not allowed to do? Does the Geneva Convention apply to the UNSC? Let’s see how far Halsey and Paragonsky were legally allowed to go, then make moral judgments after we get some legal clarification.

> I want to try something new here. Has there ever been any canon source that says some of the things ONI is allowed and is not allowed to do? Does the Geneva Convention apply to the UNSC? Let’s see how far Halsey and Paragonsky were legally allowed to go, then make moral judgments after we get some legal clarification.

Pretty sure kidnapping and all that is illegal, nobody at ONI cared.

ONI is above the UNSC though they just need approval for budgets not to mention both the UNSC and ONI approached halsey and approved of everything minus the clones.

I’m pretty sure that they are both above the UNSC and that kidnapping is illegal as well, but I want to make sure on all this. Because, as much as I hate to say it, it sounds from a legal standpoint that both Halsey and Paragonsky should be spending both their lives in jail. Also, just because ONI is above the UNSC doesn’t mean they are above the law. Also, they may act above the UNSC, but legally, are they really above the UNSC in the chain of command? I thought they were under NAVCOM, and thus answerable to HIGHCOM, I take that back, according to my copy of Halo Encyclopedia, they “technically answer to both UniCom and NavCam” (page 63).

Can you explain to me why halsey should go to jail when both the UNSC and ONI approached her and let her do everything minus the clones? She is a civilian where do you think she got the clearance and funds for everything the lottery? Everything halsey did from ordering pizza to watching the Avengers Part 4 was covered and approved by ONI the only thing that wasn’t was the clones.

Halsey flash cloning the kids should be overshadowed by the ethics of the spartan III program which ONI did in complete secret and didn’t need approval. There is a passage in GoO where they even say “make sure nobody finds out we are creating suicide solders”.

> Can you explain to me why halsey should go to jail when both the UNSC and ONI approached her and let her do everything minus the clones? She is a civilian where do you think she got the clearance and funds for everything the lottery? Everything halsey did from ordering pizza to watching the Avengers Part 4 was covered and approved by ONI the only thing that wasn’t was the clones.
>
> Halsey flash cloning the kids should be overshadowed by the ethics of the spartan III program which ONI did in complete secret and didn’t need approval. There is a passage in GoO where they even say “make sure nobody finds out we are creating suicide solders”.

What I meant it is that legally, kidnapping and experimenting on children is probably a jail sentence. It sure is today, and I doubt that it’s any different in the 2500s. Legally, I think she and Paragonsky belong in jail.

Now personally, I would storm the facility with my trusty Jackal sidekick, and bring Halsey back to Earth, safe and sound. Boo Yah!

You keep saying “legally” when i keep repeating that what she did was approved by the government. meaning she would not nor should she be jailed for something they approved and did, halsey didn’t steal the kids some ONI spook did.

Yes but the problem, is she was approved by the military. If the UNSC were to give me permission to say, rob a bank, I’m pretty sure that still isn’t legal. Approval by the military does not equal legality.

That is nowhere related to saving your species from a civil war which is exactly why humans suck with politics. They use morals,ethics, and religion in place of logic.

And that my friend, is a completely different argument which I would love to have at another time and another place.

Presumably over a glass of wine and schematics of the building Halsey is being kept in.

Agreed.

I am just trying to stress that the ethics of the spartan III project should have been the highlight not halsey.