The TU Beta takes skill out of Halo: Reach.

Games Other Halo
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Now I know that a lot of people on here are going to give me all sorts of flak about this post, and you can. However, I’ve heard people on here saying that these updates should be added to the rest of Reach’s playlist. This is my response to them, as to why 343i should not add these changes to the rest of the playlist.

Now, after playing the TU Beta on several occasions, and after playing it I can honestly say that skill has been removed. I’m going to go down each point of the Beta, now there are somethings about the Beta that I have no problems with, and I will mention those, but please read all of this before you come to any conclusion.

For starters, I’m going to begin with the Zero Bloom, note, I do not have a problem with the 85% bloom, it really doesn’t change gameplay much. However, Zero Bloom does. Now I know that a lot people on here are going to say that Zero Bloom brings skill back to Halo: Reach, when IMO it one of the biggest deterrents to gaining skill in Halo. Allow me to pose this question, since when does spamming the trigger prove that someone has more skill? It does not. The reticule bloom added skill since you now add to pace your shots to get a precise shot. Time and time again whenever someone faced me spamming shots as fast as they can they would lose. Why? Because I took the time to learn to pace my shots and everyone I play with did the same and we were able to win. With Zero Bloom that aspect of skill is gone. Spamming the trigger is now the goal. The idea now that you can fight two people at once is gone. Zero bloom reduces the need for accuracy and adds to the thought if I fire first I get the kill. There have been multiple times when I was able to take down two people when I was fighting them at once, because I took time in being accurate instead of spamming and freaking out that I was fighting two people. Or when someone would shoot me from behind I still had a chance of killing them. To me being able to kill someone who had the advantage when they engaged me showed who was the better player.

Now this leads me into my second problem, Bleed Through. Bleed through amplifies the problem with Zero Bloom. Because now there is no reason to go for a power weapon with bleed through because you are able to use the DMR and Pistol the entire game, adding that with ZB you can now kills someone in about 1.6 seconds. People are screaming for faster kill times, and these people are say they are Halo Fans. Since when was a fast kill time Halo? Even the Halo: CE Magnum of doom had that fast of a kill time. There has to be a balance between with weapons, and bleed through takes that away. Because I can kill someone with a plasma pistol in 5 shots. To add to this, Bleed through makes those double melees even worse now. Yes, there were a few occasions when a double melee would win, but not often. Yes, it was frustrating, but it didn’t happen all the time. Now all you have to do is shoot twice and melee and you win. Plus, with bleed through the grenades are even worse than before. Their is no way to defend yourself from them now.

As for Armor Lock, really is there any need for the ability anymore? The point I’m making is that AL had a purpose, and now AL cannot even fulfill that purpose. I’m okay with the fact that if you get stuck you’re going to die. I was more annoyed with that aspect of AL then anything, but I still learned anyway around it. My problem was when it came to Frag grenades. Because AL became the only defense to them, because people would spam the so much. I hear people complaining all the time when I play with it in multi-team. If you have a problem learning to adapt to AL, that’s on you, not the creators of the game. If you stick a guy when he and he goes into AL, then sit back wait for him to pop out and stick him again. Don’t sit there and wait right next to him. You’re as good as dead, that’s your stupidity. That or, throw a frag as his AL is peaking and he’s dead. Happens all the time to me when I’m in multi-team. The thought I’ve always had on AL is it was there to save you till your teammates could help you out. When it comes to AL or any AA everyone has the ability to use them, and learn how to adapt to them. I suggest you learn to adapt instead of complaining that the game is broken.

Sword Block, no real problem, with it. You can still kill whoever has the sword.

In finishing, I hope and pray 343i that you keep this to one playlist, and do not change your mind and bring it into Vanilla Reach. Because it removes the gameplay evolution of Halo. It required more skill than any other Halo game, people who say otherwise are wrong, (IMO). Because the gameplay of reach require the player to do more than spam the trigger, it required strategy as to how to attack your opponent. Meaning, you need to select what AA would be more helpful, what would help defend against other AA, or vehicles. Each with both a positive and a negative aspect to it and it was up to you to use and what you thought would work best. Halo was never a run and gun game, anyone whoever says that never played Halo: CE multiplayer which was by far one of the slowest games. It’s not what Bungie intended it to be. So 343i please do not make this update universal on reach. I beg you.

PS. I will still play CEA’s multiplayer when it comes out.

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Na that was the vanilla game. The TU changes add some skill.

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the magnum vs magnum fights in zb honestly feel more unpredictable than the vanilla reach bloom fights. I cant tell how close he is to one shot, and I certainly cant tell how close I am (I can die from one magnum headshot with what feels to be 33% sheilds [i know its 25% but it looks so much higher]). 85% is good, and the mlg settings for zb with a radar works great.

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My god, when will people get rid of the limited notion that the removal of Bloom means that there is no skill since everyone spams? HINT: SINCE ZB GAMETYPES HAVE NO BLOOM, THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SPAMMING AND PACING, AND FOR YOU TO INSINUATE THAT ZB IS BROKEN BECAUSE OF THAT SMACKS OF IGNORANCE ON A HUGE LEVEL. IT’S CALLED SHOOTING AND AIMING - a skill that was lost to many people in default Reach since their shots were randomized. Not only that, but for you to claim that pacing worked in pre-TU Reach just shows that you live under a rock, for 343i themselves have acknowledged in one of their weekly updates that their original intentions for Bloom did not play out in a way that they intended it to in the game sandbox.

Edit: Haha I just realized that Waypoint now has a word filter. How much more totalitarian can these forums get?

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Yah skill. Tch, thats just bull man. How is being able to kill someone from across forge world with a magnum add any skill what so ever? As for AL, getting stuck and Locking should not kill a player, if anything it should drain all the energy at once. But if 343 is going to keep AL as useless as they have made it they might as well replace it with Evade. All of these “fixes” should keep there own playlist like “TU Big Team” or “TU Slayer”. Although one thing about ZB is that it should be an option in Firefight/Campaign.

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> Yah skill. Tch, thats just bull man. How is being able to kill someone from across forge world with a magnum add any skill what so ever? As for AL, getting stuck and Locking should not kill a player, if anything it should drain all the energy at once. But if 343 is going to keep AL as useless as they have made it they might as well replace it with Evade. All of these “fixes” should keep there own playlist like “TU Big Team” or “TU Slayer”. Although one thing about ZB is that it should be an option in Firefight/Campaign.

AL is a block now. It is useful for killing vehicles and surviving nade spam for a short time. You can’t just sit in it, disregard stickies, etc. now.
Killed cross-map with a Magnum? The reticule is too big for it to be effective at range. You actually have to aim, and not have to put a pause on your shooting.
The changes are being kept in their own playlists. You just don’t understand anything about Halo, do you?

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I agree OP, but it really depends on the player.

‘Apparently’ a lot of people only get kills by random shots due to bloom and this makes it ‘easier’.
And for people who do that, yes, ZB brings skill in.

But for me, someone who has learnt to pace my shots and rely on accuracy, ZB takes both away.
Weapons are so much more accurate it isn’t funny. Adding to that, you can just quickly tap the trigger and someone across the map (e.g. the cage) is dead.

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Here’s my problem with what you said. There is IN FACT a difference between pacing and spamming. If I’m taking my time making sure I’m getting headshots then I’m not going to fire as many shots down range as someone spamming the trigger button. It will never happen. Players no longer have to worry about going for the head, when they can pull the trigger as fast as they can and kill the enemy. In Vanilla Reach if you would let your reticule reset then you would have the same accuracy that you have in Zero Bloom. I’ve done it. I know that the bloom was broken in certain regards, I play Swat a ton, I know when spamming the trigger shots go where ever the hell they want to. However, if you’d take the time and notice that when your reticule RESETS (Meaning it goes back down normal how is before you fire.) you are just as accurate as ZB. “IT WAS CALLED AIMING AND SHOOTING - a skill that was lost by many people in default reach.” No, Reach required you to aim shoot, and pace your shots. It was a skill that was more realistic, and you obviously never learned, or never took the time to learn it.

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H:CE, H2, and H3 require you to aim and shoot.

Reach requires you to aim, shoot, and wait for bloom to reset. However, Reach also provides the option to just ignore bloom and shoot as quickly as possible yet still score kills because of the broken way bloom and aim assist’s bullet magnetism interact with each other.

No amount of bloom regardless of how much or how little will ever change anything about that. The only solution is to get rid of bloom altogether.

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I’m a fan of ZB, but the OP did get me thinking. It’s true that you die ridiciliously fast now due to trigger spam and that venturing anywhere near open ground is a suicide, when people are able to shoot you up from across the map.

I dont know which is the lesser worse; ZB trigger spam or random headshots with the bloom.

Dont even get me started on the Magnum. That’s the stupidest thing a Halo game has ever had. You can easily beat anyone with a magnum spam now and it’s so easy it isnt even funny.

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I’m not denying the random headshots. I know all about them. But the Zero Bloom gametype that they have are adding to the idea spamming the trigger is what creates a better player. In Vanilla Reach I have yet to lose a fight to someone that has spammed the trigger and let my reticle reset and pace my shots. There is away around the spamming, people just do not want to admit that.

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> Na that was the vanilla game. The TU changes add some skill.

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> Na that was the vanilla game. The TU changes add some skill.

How?

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No…Just no.

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> In Vanilla Reach I have yet to lose a fight to someone that has spammed the trigger and let my reticle reset and pace my shots.

That is either a complete and utter lie, or you play really bad players who can’t aim.

With zero bloom, your shots go exactly where you aim every time. That means the person who can spam the trigger the fastese WHILE aiming just as fast as they are spamming will win. So basically the person who can aim the fastest will win. How does that not add skill to the game?

Furthermore, when there was bloom, you could spam and even if your aim was off, you could still get the hit. How does that take more skill?

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I agree about zero bloom. With it, we are basically in the same position as with default bloom. A good idea, implemeted poorly. Without a set RoF, it’s just a spam fest with perfect accuracy.

I like bleed-through, though I do think they need to scale it down a little bit.

AL is better now, I don’t use it but it’s good they didn’t nerf it to the point of uslessness.

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TU beta indeed. It’s not an accurate model of how the settings should be implemented, but none of the changes if implemented correctly take away skill.

> Now I know that a lot people on here are going to say that Zero Bloom brings skill back to Halo: Reach, when IMO it one of the biggest deterrents to gaining skill in Halo. Allow me to pose this question, since when does spamming the trigger prove that someone has more skill? It does not. The reticule bloom added skill since you now add to pace your shots to get a precise shot.

You can’t win by spamming only, you still need to aim. This combined with a very small reticle makes getting a kill much harder than in the default settings. Because with bloom, after you had fired your first shot, the reticle was just a little bigger and thereby you only needed to fire less accurately.

> Time and time again whenever someone faced me spamming shots as fast as they can they would lose. Why? Because I took the time to learn to pace my shots and everyone I play with did the same and we were able to win.

Again, that statement is untrue. You may have won majority of encounters by pacing, but bloom is still random. Have you ever wondered what caused you to lose a DMR encounter? Sure, many times it can be that one bullet you missed, but sometimes it’s just that the opponent injects a little bit more luck to their shots than you and manage to win because they have a little higher RoF. That’s inconsistency, the biggest flaw of bloom.

> With Zero Bloom that aspect of skill is gone. Spamming the trigger is now the goal. The idea now that you can fight two people at once is gone. Zero bloom reduces the need for accuracy and adds to the thought if I fire first I get the kill. There have been multiple times when I was able to take down two people when I was fighting them at once, because I took time in being accurate instead of spamming and freaking out that I was fighting two people. Or when someone would shoot me from behind I still had a chance of killing them. To me being able to kill someone who had the advantage when they engaged me showed who was the better player.

You must play against bad players on daily basis when you can win two players in a DMR 1v2 in a gametype with bloom. Because against players with even little skill, the time it takes for the reticle to reset, it’s impossible to win two players at once assuming they know how to aim. Personally I find it hard to believe that you have ever done that against opponents of any level.

When someone shoots you behind in the default settings of Reach, you can win. But the win depends on your luck. You either have to start spamming the trigger as soon as you turn around. Alternatively you may win because the opponent shooting you from behind is bad. But in both cases it’s rarely a matter of skill. Zero bloom on the other hand, is way too fast with the current settings, but when the speed is adjusted to 120%, you still have a chance to perform a maneuver and kill the opponent.

> ow this leads me into my second problem, Bleed Through. Bleed through amplifies the problem with Zero Bloom. Because now there is no reason to go for a power weapon with bleed through because you are able to use the DMR and Pistol the entire game, adding that with ZB you can now kills someone in about 1.6 seconds.

Saying that zero bloom makes power weapon useless is, again, a false statement. It’s not really the gametypes fault if the player doesn’t have the skill to land that Rocket or that Sniper shot. The faster kill times just give players more chances at countering the power weapons, something that requires skill and also makes using power weapons to require more skill. the effect is positive to both directions.

> As for Armor Lock, really is there any need for the ability anymore? The point I’m making is that AL had a purpose, and now AL cannot even fulfill that purpose. I’m okay with the fact that if you get stuck you’re going to die. I was more annoyed with that aspect of AL then anything, but I still learned anyway around it. My problem was when it came to Frag grenades. Because AL became the only defense to them, because people would spam the so much. I hear people complaining all the time when I play with it in multi-team. If you have a problem learning to adapt to AL, that’s on you, not the creators of the game. If you stick a guy when he and he goes into AL, then sit back wait for him to pop out and stick him again. Don’t sit there and wait right next to him. You’re as good as dead, that’s your stupidity. That or, throw a frag as his AL is peaking and he’s dead. Happens all the time to me when I’m in multi-team. The thought I’ve always had on AL is it was there to save you till your teammates could help you out. When it comes to AL or any AA everyone has the ability to use them, and learn how to adapt to them. I suggest you learn to adapt instead of complaining that the game is broken.

Excuse me, but I happen to find it a tad bit ironic that you’re trying to talk about skill, but then throw the so familiar “adabt” word in the end of your argument. Anyway, Armor Lock is, in no way, a good addition to Halo. It doesn’t even belong to the game. I understand the grenade spam part, but countering it by something as bad as Armor lock doesn’t really help.

The case with Armor Lock is: No one should be able to get a second chance after they have been outplayed. If someone brings you to no shields in an encounter, by going to Armor Lock you activate your second chance and even tough you were out performed, you can still survive from a situation where you clearly should have died.

You may not believe it, but we actually have valid reasons why armor abilities don’t beling to the game. They’re simply hindering all areas of skill in the game. Sometimes even removing which happens to be the case with Jetpack and map control.

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> It required more skill than any other Halo game, people who say otherwise are wrong, (IMO).

Skill is something that isn’t a matter of opinion. Skill may be hard to measure, but it can still be seen. Mostly in the difference between the scores of two differently skilled players in a game of 1v1. Which has gone downhill in Reach. some amount of strategy may be added, but much more is removed from other areas of skill. Armor abilities aren’t nearly as deep as you think them to be.

> Halo was never a run and gun game, anyone whoever says that never played Halo: CE multiplayer which was by far one of the slowest games. It’s not what Bungie intended it to be.

Halo has always been an arena shooter and should stay like that. It’s not a strategic shooter where you need to think every maneuver for few minutes before proceeding. By saying that Halo CE was by far the slowest of the games you’re showing that you probably have zero gameplay experience of that game. You see, people may have differing opinions on do they like Halo CE, but besides you I have never met anyone who would call Halo CE slow. You can just watch any Halo CE gameplay video and see that the players are constantly running around the map, there is no camping or anything else that would slow down gameplay.

Now what comes to implementation of TU changes, it’s far from perfect. There is so much that could be done including faster movement speed, higher jump height, damage, shield and health tweaks and lot’s of other things. The TU beta playlist is a bad example of the changes.

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Tsassi, I do hope they fix a lot of the changes. Now, I’m not going to quote everything because going in a doing on that would take to much time, and I’m tired as it’s five in the morning where I’m at. So I’m just going to go down each of your paragraphs and number them.

  1. Yes, you need to aim, but with ZB there is less of a need for skill, because the accuracy is already given to you. If you have your reticle on them now all you have to do is hit the trigger as fast as you can. However, even bungie when they created the game stated the reason for the bloom was to reduce the spamming.

  2. Not true, because I can strafe, crouch or use AA’s while I allow my reticle to reset to it original setting. RoF is great up close, but in a mid-range fight I’m not going to lose a DMR battle because I am able to pace my shots with my reticle resetting. That is my biggest thing I have against people on here who say that Bloom does not work. If you take your time and pace your shots with the reticle resetting then you will have the accuracy that comes with ZB. Which should be the case with any rifle. If you fire a rifle at a high RoF you are going to have recoil, which causes your shots to miss their target. Don’t be mad about it.

  3. Actually no I don’t, I learn to use my AA especially evade and cover to my advantage, adding to the ability to strafe, crouch and jump. That is the biggest problem in Reach, people have grown so a custom to being able to spam the trigger and moving their reticle all over they are able to land shots, and get the kill. Bloom punishes the player who spams the trigger, as it was designed to do. This also goes to your statement about being attacked from behind. If I’m being attacked from behind and the player spams the trigger less of their shots are going to land on target, I am able to turn around and pace my shots all on their head and get the kill. Yes, I may be weak after the encounter, but I still win the fight. I love how you assume it comes down to luck.

  4. Allow me to ask you this question. Why would I even want a power weapon win I can use a DMR, or Pistol to kill my enemy faster? Why should I even risk going for a weapon when I can sit back and pick off my enemies faster. I’m pretty good with the Sniper, you can look at my stats with it. When I’m playing the ZB gametype I don’t even want to waste my time going for it because I know I can do better without with my DMR or Pistol.

  5. Yes, I used the word Adapt. All I have heard is people whining and complaining about how the bloom sucks, or is terrible, yet they refuse to adapt. I can play on the TU and actually do quite well on it. However, I still prefer Vanilla Reach, as the gameplay in my opinion is better. So giving the player a way to defend themselves is not good. Okay, that makes sense. AA add to the game, they give the player an option as to how to approach the match. I’ll be the first one to admit the main AA’s I use are either Sprint or Evade. But when it comes the power that grenades have, and how often people spam them now on team slayer matches or multi-team its ridiculous to say a defensive AA does not have a place in the game. Also, if you wait out their AL you’re still going to kill them. I don’t use jet pack, I thought that it was cool at first, but then realized the weakness of it. That is, while you may be able to get above me and and try to gain higher ground you leave yourself wide open when you’re in the air. Each AA has its advantages and disadvantages learning what each of them are and how to combat them is showing how good of a player you are.

  6. 1v1’s are the biggest joke in my opinion. Every time I’ve played in one all it comes down to is connection. Yes, gaining the power weapons is great and controlling the map is even better. However, if you’re not host you’re not going to win. Sorry, that’s just my experience.

  7. Actually I bought Halo: CE when it came out and played it for three years with my friend have lan parties basically every friday night through saturday until Halo 2 came out. Out of all the Halo games, to me the multiplayer was slower than any of the other Halo’s, and quite a bit of the people I played with then, and now agree that from a multiplayer stand point the gameplay was slower than an any other Halo.

  8. So with the added speed, and jump hight you’re basically wanting the MLG playlist with ZB with some Health tweaks? That’s all that sounds like to me.

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> There is so much that could be done including faster movement speed, higher jump height, damage, shield and health tweaks and lot’s of other things. The TU beta playlist is a bad example of the changes.

At least movement speed, jump height, and shield/health recharge rate are things that don’t require a TU. Those can be changed easily within the gametype options, and it would require just a playlist update to get them into matchmaking.