The sprint discussion thread

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> > > > Id rather keep sprint.
> > >
> > > And since people have a problem with it nerf it so that it lasts a short amount of time eg. 5 seconds then it has a cooldown of 20 seconds forcing the player to engage in gunfights
> >
> > But the game would still need to be designed around sprint, so the damage to the sandbox and map design would still be present.
>
> Its really annoying me that people cant stick with one thing. I dont think that new players would join without sprint, but then again it would annoy the OGs.
> Will not having sprint in arena but in btb and warzone be betterb??

No because it’s a game wide issue with its inclusion.

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> > > > Id rather keep sprint.
> > >
> > > And since people have a problem with it nerf it so that it lasts a short amount of time eg. 5 seconds then it has a cooldown of 20 seconds forcing the player to engage in gunfights
> >
> > But the game would still need to be designed around sprint, so the damage to the sandbox and map design would still be present.
>
> Its really annoying me that people cant stick with one thing. I dont think that new players would join without sprint, but then again it would annoy the OGs.
> Will not having sprint in arena but in btb and warzone be betterb??

Honestly, I think that’d be worse because you have one sandbox being used for two different styles of play. When the game is designed to compliment enhanced mobility, removing sprint doesn’t solve everything. I think it’d be smarter to find ways of making the player feel faster without the inclusion of Sprint. Faster base movement speed, wider FoV, smaller maps, more man cannons and vehicles etc. I think it was Vegeto that suggested you could even have the wind effects show up on your hud after a few seconds to feel faster.

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> > > > I understand the concept.
> > > >
> > > > In this instance its deceitful because the person is pretending to project their argument on the grounds that they truly believe that lore supports their anti sprint agenda. I totally comprehend what it is and what they were doing; and playing devils advocate is indeed a justifiable approach to many debates (particularly during legal proceedings) under the pretense that it’s built upon an honest argument. In this instance the person pushing the argument clearly doesn’t believe either a) lore supports their anti sprint agenda or b) lore should even be considered at all during gameplay decisions. So in this case it’s totally dishonest to utilize this tactic in this debate because the person doesn’t believe that lore should be considered in this debated either way. It would be different, for instance, if the person actually believed that lore benefited gameplay but pushed an agenda to the anterior of their perspective stance on the issue to raise an additional layer of thought and perspective on the topic.
> > >
> > > First of all, I’m still not getting it. You were presented an argument, and your response is going at it how “honest” it is?
> > > No one should see things from the other side’s point of view, and question things from that side in a DA manner because the original view isn’t the same as the point of view you’re looking at?
> > >
> > > Second, how is any of that even relevant? The only thing you’ve managed to do was attack the argument Ad Hominem style, whatever is called.
> >
> > Questioning the foundation of an argument is akin to questioning the veracity of a source. For instance in law enforcement if someone provides an anonymous tip the law enforcement official receiving it wouldn’t immediately take the information at face value and automatically act upon it. The person’s motives behind submitting the tip could be flawed and potentially even aimed at misleading their intended audience to benefit their personal agenda.
> >
> > I’ve discussed my opinions behind why I believe that sprint (or at the very least two permanent BMS’) is supported by lore but the discussion invariably leads to tangents; such as anti sprinters using the approach we’re talking about (Where, in actuality, they don’t even believe lore should be a part of this discussion in the first place). If that’s the case- that it takes a fundamentally dishonest approach for anti sprinters to even want to debate lore in this discussion, then to me it doesn’t serve any further benefit to continue down this particular path of logic at this time.
>
> - An argument is an argument, the provider of the argument does not have to be of a specific opinion to be allowed to make it. An anonymous tip for law enforcement is not an argument, it’s a piece of information.I see what you’re trying to do here and it doesn’t work. The example that I’ve provided (while obviously not literally the exact same thing), is borne of the same exact mindset. Veracity is veracity, anyway that you cut it. Since their argument about lore was presented by somebody that doesn’t even believe that lore should be weighted in the discussion whatsoever it’s an argument that fundamentally doesn’t hold any merit. - This is essentially you dictating who’s allowed to make which arguments and on what grounds they are allowed or not allowed to debate the way they do. And / or a way for you to justify not having to be bothered with some arguments.Not really, I’ve never attempted to tell anyone they couldn’t say something here. I certainly acknowledge that the moderators are the only people here that could dictate such a thing (Should they for whatever reason deem it’s necessary to intervene). And I’m not at all suggesting that I’m too good for the argument or anything. Not to mention I’ve really only expanded behind my reasoning on this matter upon further questioning (such as your replies like this one). - How about my thoughts on how i343 dictate lore? That it’d be extremely easy for i343 to make it so sprinting wouldn’t make sense for Spartans? I don’t recall having that acknowledged, so it must be dishonest for me to make that point, with accompanied examples, and thus the point is moot?Look, with all due respect, about half a dozen people were sending me multiple replies to multiple points throughout the week in here at the same time. While I try my best, I don’t always have the time or desire to compose a detailed reply to every single point from every single person. Sometimes, like with the lore point, it doesn’t even need a reply (at least not from me). I’ve explained my thoughts before on why I believe that sprinting is supported by lore and since then have only been met with tangents, such as the AD approach we’re discussing right now, where the person self-professed that they didn’t even believe in their own argument (as they didn’t believe that lore should be weighted in gameplay at all)… As someone who does believe that sprint is supported by lore, I see no point in engaging with someone over an argument structured like that. And for your argument, I’d say we’re at a stalemate being completely split on this particular issue, so it doesn’t benefit this discussion for you and I to kick the, “lore debate can,” around without new information (If you insist, you could always PM me for a more detailed discussion on the matter).

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> Since their argument about lore was presented by somebody that doesn’t even believe that lore should be weighted in the discussion whatsoever it’s an argument that fundamentally doesn’t hold any merit.

This is a very strange way to judge merit. It sounds odd to me that one’s beliefs about the relevance of a given argument to the topic at hand should somehow affect its quality. Certainly, whether one believes a statement to be relevant to the discussion does not affect the veracity of that statement. Or should everyone be wary of my claim that the sky is blue because I don’t believe the color of the sky to have any bearing on whether sprint should be in Halo or not? How will we survive in a world where the merit of an argument is determined not by its logic and the truthfulness of its premises, but by the beliefs of its author about its relevance to some topic?

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> > > > Id rather keep sprint.
> > >
> > > And since people have a problem with it nerf it so that it lasts a short amount of time eg. 5 seconds then it has a cooldown of 20 seconds forcing the player to engage in gunfights
> >
> > But the game would still need to be designed around sprint, so the damage to the sandbox and map design would still be present.
>
> Its really annoying me that people cant stick with one thing. I dont think that new players would join without sprint, but then again it would annoy the OGs.
> Will not having sprint in arena but in btb and warzone be betterb??

Why shouldn’t there be new players just because of the absence of sprint?
Overwatch, one of the most popular games in this decade is heavily focussed on Run & Gun. Out of all the characters, just one or two are able to sprint.

Every game has it’s own way to move “faster” around the map. Some will add these things as base mechanics, other ones will try to implement these things into your sandbox & environment.
That’s not really a discussion about “classic” or “modern”, it’s about the preference how to implement certain things into your game.

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> And since people have a problem with it nerf it so that it lasts a short amount of time eg. 5 seconds then it has a cooldown of 20 seconds forcing the player to engage in gunfights

We already had that in Reach and H4 except your version is more exaggerated. Sprint would still be an issue and I think it would just frustrate people because the cooldown is too long.

I could see a version where it’s just more of a short acceleration boost kind of like a Spartan charge with a cooldown as well, but I’d need to think about it more.

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> > Since their argument about lore was presented by somebody that doesn’t even believe that lore should be weighted in the discussion whatsoever it’s an argument that fundamentally doesn’t hold any merit.
>
> - This is a very strange way to judge merit. It sounds odd to me that one’s beliefs about the relevance of a given argument to the topic at hand should somehow affect its quality.Really though? With regards to this specific point, I really do want to follow you on this one but this is one of those rare cases where I don’t think I get it. If you can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the entire basis of somebody’s argument is fundamentally dishonest (as the OP even admitted), then how can it possibly be pressed forward as having merit? - Certainly, whether one believes a statement to be relevant to the discussion does not affect the veracity of that statement.In this much broader context, sure potentially any such statement would have some degree of veracity, especially if it were undertaken with an honest approach. But if the person pushing the argument believes that the basis for said argument (I.E. Lore even being considered for gameplay) is 100% groundless to begin with then having that person push forth an argument to try and somehow argue that lore should support their anti sprint agenda is likewise a groundless argument. - Or should everyone be wary of my claim that the sky is blue because I don’t believe the color of the sky to have any bearing on whether sprint should be in Halo or not? How will we survive in a world where the merit of an argument is determined not by its logic and the truthfulness of its premises, but by the beliefs of its author about its relevance to some topic?I wasn’t suggesting that every argument is the same, or that we should categorize every argument in the same manner. Most arguments are inherently individualistic but questioning the fundation of the argument, or more importantly the motives of its author is similar to questioning the source when someone throws around a generalized statement. Pro and anti sprinters do that all the time in this thread and the general expectation is that sources should be produced to support facts and (often times) assumptions. Similarly it should also be considered fair to question the motives behind the author of each argument as well. The intentions and purposes behind misrepresented arguments could potentially render an argument a mute point (such as in this case where the author of said argument doesn’t actually really believe there should be any argument over lore to begin with)… Just like unverifiable, inaccurate, and/or misrepresented stastistical data could be formed to skew an argument. For instance if you told me the sky was green, shouldn’t it be fair for me to question why you feel that way? If you proceeded to provide a source to a statistical graph that showed that 9/10 people also responded that the sky was green shouldn’t I also consider whether your argument has merit? Wouldn’t it still be fair for me to question how the poll was conducted? What if your true intentions were to mislead me with such an argument for a personal agenda? What if your 10 participants were told to answer that the sky was green or the poll was structured in a deceiving manner to intentionally skew the results? One step beyond that- if later on you proceeded to inform me that you didn’t even believe that the sky was green but yet you still expected me to treat your original argument with merit and respond to it, why would I want to continue the argument with you? My point is that attempting to determine the merit of an argument is nothing more than just trying to ensure that the argument’s presented in a fair and accurate manner. It can definitely be difficult to determine the merit of an argument, however if the author straight up admits that they don’t believe in the premise of the argument then that’s enough evidence to make such a determination.

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> > > > > Id rather keep sprint.
> > > >
> > > > And since people have a problem with it nerf it so that it lasts a short amount of time eg. 5 seconds then it has a cooldown of 20 seconds forcing the player to engage in gunfights
> > >
> > > But the game would still need to be designed around sprint, so the damage to the sandbox and map design would still be present.
> >
> > Its really annoying me that people cant stick with one thing. I dont think that new players would join without sprint, but then again it would annoy the OGs.
> > Will not having sprint in arena but in btb and warzone be betterb??
>
> Why shouldn’t there be new players just because of the absence of sprint?
> Overwatch, one of the most popular games in this decade is heavily focussed on Run & Gun. Out of all the characters, just one or two are able to sprint.
>
> Every game has it’s own way to move “faster” around the map. Some will add these things as base mechanics, other ones will try to implement these things into your sandbox & environment.
> That’s not really a discussion about “classic” or “modern”, it’s about the preference how to implement certain things into your game.

Yea just remembered over watch, if removing sprint really makes halo great again I wouldn’t mind

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> > > > > Id rather keep sprint.
> > > >
> > > > And since people have a problem with it nerf it so that it lasts a short amount of time eg. 5 seconds then it has a cooldown of 20 seconds forcing the player to engage in gunfights
> > >
> > > But the game would still need to be designed around sprint, so the damage to the sandbox and map design would still be present.
> >
> > Its really annoying me that people cant stick with one thing. I dont think that new players would join without sprint, but then again it would annoy the OGs.
> > Will not having sprint in arena but in btb and warzone be betterb??
>
> Honestly, I think that’d be worse because you have one sandbox being used for two different styles of play. When the game is designed to compliment enhanced mobility, removing sprint doesn’t solve everything. I think it’d be smarter to find ways of making the player feel faster without the inclusion of Sprint. Faster base movement speed, wider FoV, smaller maps, more man cannons and vehicles etc. I think it was Vegeto that suggested you could even have the wind effects show up on your hud after a few seconds to feel faster.

Yea that sounds great, but to me it just doesn’t make sense that a super soldier can’t run of all things, if they do it like over watch did it visually I’d be down

Keep it or take it away dont bother me i came from the 1st halo to Halo 5 so im use to using it and not using it.

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> > > > > > Id rather keep sprint.
> > > > >
> > > > > And since people have a problem with it nerf it so that it lasts a short amount of time eg. 5 seconds then it has a cooldown of 20 seconds forcing the player to engage in gunfights
> > > >
> > > > But the game would still need to be designed around sprint, so the damage to the sandbox and map design would still be present.
> > >
> > > Its really annoying me that people cant stick with one thing. I dont think that new players would join without sprint, but then again it would annoy the OGs.
> > > Will not having sprint in arena but in btb and warzone be betterb??
> >
> > Honestly, I think that’d be worse because you have one sandbox being used for two different styles of play. When the game is designed to compliment enhanced mobility, removing sprint doesn’t solve everything. I think it’d be smarter to find ways of making the player feel faster without the inclusion of Sprint. Faster base movement speed, wider FoV, smaller maps, more man cannons and vehicles etc. I think it was Vegeto that suggested you could even have the wind effects show up on your hud after a few seconds to feel faster.
>
> Yea that sounds great, but to me it just doesn’t make sense that a super soldier can’t run of all things, if they do it like over watch did it visually I’d be down

Depends on how you look at. In classic Halo we may not have had a sprint animation, but we could always move at the top speed in any direction while being able to shoot, melee, and throw nades all at once. Almost like you were always sprinting rather than only part of the time.

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> Yea that sounds great, but to me it just doesn’t make sense that a super soldier can’t run of all things, if they do it like over watch did it visually I’d be down.

If spartans were running as fast as the DOOM slayer, would you be ok with having no sprint?

The problem with the whole lore supports gameplay and/or vice versa argument is that those who use it often see it as more cut-n-dried than it is. The truth is, it [either lore supports gameplay, vice versa] can… but it doesn’t have to and it doesn’t always.

Going back as far as Pac-Man and even earlier, we had a “story” that went along with the game, but we really didn’t need one. As gaming evolved, people found it appealing to have a story interwoven with their games. It made for a more immersive experience and helped to compel gamers to complete larger, longer and more complex levels. They were vested in more than just playing a game.

I doubt anyone would argue against the fact that games in a series need to evolve and change things up a little to keep their audience interested and playing each new iteration… gaming in general has to do that. As this thread proves, however, not everyone likes certain changes, additions or modifications from one game to the next.

Nowadays, games are expected to come with at least some kind of story and for good reason. But the concept that the lore and gameplay should, or even can, support each other can only go so far. If the idea that the story of any given game had to be limited to only what was accomplishable in gameplay itself, we wouldn’t have such epic sagas as Halo. I’d wager nobody wants that.

I doubt many would say that it’s an easy job to add a mechanic like sprint into a game that previously didn’t have it and that it requires a lot of effort to balance it. I also doubt that many would say it’s a hard job to fabricate some kind of lore based reason for almost any kind of game alteration. JMPO, but I’d say it’s probably much easier, more sensical, and much more common to adjust lore to compensate for changes in gameplay than to do the opposite. That being said, the way I see it, the game is the game and the story is the story. Discrepancies happen, that’s the cost of having a good story to accompany a game series. But IMO, the only people who are qualified to make the claim that the lore supports the gameplay or vice versa are 343 themselves. They’re the ones who have to perform the balancing act to make it work. They’re the ones who have to come up with (or not bother with) the lore that supports any gameplay change.

Personally, I think that gameplay always, always, always has to take precedence over story and it doesn’t matter if the lore supports it or even mentions it. If I love a particular game mechanic and I have fun playing the game, why would I care if lore supports it or not? I’m still going to play the game even if it doesn’t. If I hate a particular game mechanic, again, why would I care if lore supports it or not? It certainly isn’t going to magically make me like to play the game even if it does.

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> Personally, I think that gameplay always, always, always has to take precedence over story and it doesn’t matter if the lore supports it or even mentions it. If I love a particular game mechanic and I have fun playing the game, why would I care if lore supports it or not? I’m still going to play the game even if it doesn’t. If I hate a particular game mechanic, again, why would I care if lore supports it or not? It certainly isn’t going to magically make me like to play the game even if it does.

I’ve accidentally forgot about this thread, but this comment and what Tsassi said earlier pretty much sums up my thoughts.

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> > I play Halo every single day. I don’t play other games. I use sprint often. It’s obviously well thought out by the game designers and works as intended - in this game. Seems to me that people are asking for Halo 5 to be one of the previous Halo games. That doesn’t really seem practical, but I suppose 343 could create playlists that didn’t allow sprint similar to the Halo 3 Throwbacks. Would that make the anti-sprint people happy?
>
> No, because game balance is still messed up. There are aspects of the game that are designed around Sprint (namely hitscan weapons). Removing Sprint only exacerbates the issue.
>
> The game has to be built from the ground up for a specific movement style. Otherwise, things start to become non-functional or problematic, balance wisw. This is due in part to Halo’s much longer TTK relative to where this system primarily comes from. Call of Duty’s TTK is around 2 seconds, at best. Halo’s is much longer, creating imbalances in the system.

Wow, way too serious.

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> > Yea that sounds great, but to me it just doesn’t make sense that a super soldier can’t run of all things, if they do it like over watch did it visually I’d be down.
>
> If spartans were running as fast as the DOOM slayer, would you be ok with having no sprint?

I’m neither pro or anti sprint, but yes, Halo with a bms similar to Doom and no sprint mechanic would be perfect, imo.

if sprint was removed do you really want think it would improve the entire game? And new players might be attracted to abilities like overwatch, maybe that could be fixed with the pickup abilities from halo 3, but I do think people want sprint in games nowadays. I can adapt to not having it. Apparently the most liked post on this thread is for keeping dprint.I’m basically split in half about this topic .

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> > > Yea that sounds great, but to me it just doesn’t make sense that a super soldier can’t run of all things, if they do it like over watch did it visually I’d be down.
> >
> > If spartans were running as fast as the DOOM slayer, would you be ok with having no sprint?
>
> I’m neither pro or anti sprint, but yes, Halo with a bms similar to Doom and no sprint mechanic would be perfect, imo.

Doom died very quickly tbh

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> > > > Halo 6 could be the game EVERYONE wants by removing sprint in campaign (yes because who the -Yoink- needs TWO movement speeds in campaign???) and
> > > > arena multiplayer at first I thought a no sprint playlist might be optimal but hear me out. I pretty sure the new spartan abilities (save -Yoinking!- spartan charge) would be GENERALLY accepted in a halo game if they werent accompanied by sprint it would feel more competitive more strategic and would also still be recognizable to the fine tuned experience we got in halo 5. Warzone and customs would be a whole other beast entirely retaining ALL the features that made halo 5 successful would keep warzone great and would also allow more options for custom games, for those people that actually wanted to play in a sprint arena type setting they could actually fire up the in game custom game lobby adjust the filter and be good to go! lets face it, sprint has NO place in competitive halo and to argue that it does would just be absurd. this would allow arena maps to continue to be designed the PROPER way and please the vets and basically everyone whos willing to give it a chance and you wouldnt lose much of your sprint loving audience at all because there would still be sprint in the game it would just take a backseat!
> > > > Thoughts? :3
> > >
> > > A: Since the anti-sprint camp is only a section of the community it would not be the game everyone wants.
> > > B: There has never been a clear answer as to why people think two geared movement isn’t ‘competitive’. Nor do I consider competitiveness to be the be all and end all of Halo. It has a role, but that isn’t all halo is as h5 has shown to some degree.
> > > C: You call any position other than yours ‘absurd’ though you fail to demonstrate how.
> > > D: Loudly proclaiming that sprint has no place in ‘competitive’ halo is a claim, not an argument. You need to back up your claim if it is to be taken seriously.
> > > E: Halo 5 has map design problems, but they don’t really center around sprint. They center around size, spawning, blind corners, and lack of variety.
> > > F: As a Halo veteran with no distaste for sprint, this argument form ignorance that the loss of population overtime is due to sprint that has been flooding the forum of late is getting tiresome. You still have nothing to base the claim on. It is still the equivalent of walking into your kitchen in the morning and seeing a plate of French toast and assuming a unicorn with a glittering mane made it for you.
> >
> > This
> >
> > Sprint is far from the be all and end all of halo. It never was and never will be. As I have said many, many times before i am pretty neutral as far as sprint goes but saying it will solve all problems is shallow and demonstrably not true.
> >
> > A number of people have pointed to the increase in FPS without sprint as some form of evidence but from what i can see Doom has performed badly to say the least.
> >
> > Its twitch rating has dropped hugely and it consistently sits below H5 most days despite being multi-platform. I realise this isnt the best measure but look at the steam numbers Here and you can see how numbers have dropped.
>
> yet overwatch, and counterstrike are just fine

Over watch has teleporting heroes like tracer, reaper and sombra. Junkrat can launch himself hundred feet.

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> > > > Yea that sounds great, but to me it just doesn’t make sense that a super soldier can’t run of all things, if they do it like over watch did it visually I’d be down.
> > >
> > > If spartans were running as fast as the DOOM slayer, would you be ok with having no sprint?
> >
> > I’m neither pro or anti sprint, but yes, Halo with a bms similar to Doom and no sprint mechanic would be perfect, imo.
>
> Doom died very quickly tbh

Doom is not dead, I still get games. I’ll admit, it did lose a lot of the population but the movement was not the reason.