The sprint discussion thread

Games Halo 5: Guardians
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> And speaking of running with weapons, what happened to the lore aspect you were so adamant about? I thought it “literally” didn’t make sense for a Spartan to Sprint while firing a weapon? I mean the whole purpose of Sprint was because of a need to go somewhere above all else, forgoing dealing damage. That’s why you showed that video of Chief running after killing Regret and said how it’s better than lumbering around with his weapon out and getting killed by the blast. I guess that argument goes out the window as long as you manage to keep Sprint.

Oh, by the way, Chief is still running the same 7m/s BMS from Halo 2 in that cutscene. In the original version anyways, I never tried measuring the speed for the Anniversary cutscene.

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> I think sprint is a good addition to Halo. It just seems weird to me to take it out, especially from campaign. Competitive without sprint is understandable, but I wouldn’t really appreciate removing it from any other playlists or gamemodes.

Okay.

Why? Why is it a good addition when it doesn’t do anything but break the game, and an increase in BMS can do the same thing as Sprint, but without breaking anything in the game.

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> - Whether or not you feel that an 800+ page discussion thread is indicative of turmoil… Threads of this magnitude don’t just happen for no reason, or even for smaller issues.

  • I don’t and please allow me to explain. - Sure sprint is somewhat controversial to some people in the community… And sure this thread has been an ongoing discussion about sprint- but the thread is nothing more and nothing less than a medium amongst fellow fans to try and understand why some people prefer sprint and some do not. And at the very least I have learned (and continue to learn) a heck of a lot more behind why many of you do not like sprint. To me it was previously incomprehensible to fathom why anyone wouldn’t enjoy the modern movement mechanics in Halo but after participating in this debate the past few months (across a few threads) I definitely have a much broader understanding in that regard… By in large I still disagree with most of you on this issue but I respect and definitely do my best to understand your position on this matter. - And yet to put things into perspective the size of the thread is still not impressive when you attempt to project it like you’re doing here. That’s not to say that I’m impassionate to your feelings on this issue, but to me this thread has been perpetually kept alive by the same core group of anti sprinters. That’s fine too, I mean it’s interesting to hear ya’ll’s perspective on the issue and all but (no offense intended) IMO the size, or “magnitude,” of this thread does not at all substantiate your implied “magnitude,” of this issue as a whole. - I certainly disagree with sprint creating any perceived “turmoil,” for anyone other than anti sprinters… For us pro sprinters it keeps us enjoying modern Halo for a wide variety of reasons that we are trying to convey to you here in this thread. To us sprint is perfectly fine and it naturally belongs in the franchise. - I will concede to you that “turmoil,” is indeed in the eye of the beholder so what you might consider “turmoil,” might be perfectly fine to others. But try to understand that as much as you dislike Halo with sprint there are many of your fellow fans, myself included, that would be equally upset (if not moreso) without sprint in modern Halo.
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> - The compromise part of the comment was 100% serious though. You said you wanted to find a compromise, here is a compromise.That is definitely no compromise and (based off your routine tongue-in-cheek replies) I’m 99% certain that you know it. It’s false for you to suggest that completely cutting sprint is a compromise- it’s not, it’s just you getting your way. - You just described one BMS. Seriously, I’m not being facetious or snarky here, you word for word described one BMS under a different control scheme.I did not- As I have clarified multiple times, “speed boost,” in H2A was nothing more than a mere taste of what sprint could’ve given us in the original game. That’s it- that was the purpose of that example. It’s not a substitute for sprint and its definitely not a substitute for two permanent BMS’. There are multiple problems trying to push “speed boost” as a substitute, to include that: speed boost is temporary, only one person on the entire map can get it at any given point in time, in H2A not all levels even offer speed boost, and it wears off quickly, with a very long respawn timer (~2:00 per speed boost spawn, which means in a ~10 minute game it can only be used about 4x in total)… Not to mention the sheer unbalanced OP’ness that happens when only one person in the entire game is moving faster than everyone else) In contrast, two permanent BMS’ while still being able to shoot could indeed be considered a compromise, sure… Albeit the gameplay is still probably more balanced and fluid with sprint the way it is now in Halo 5. - Like Tsassi brought up, why don’t you consider those different movement speeds?Of course I’ve considered tsassi’s posts. I’ve genuinly considered all pro and anti sprinters’ comments that I’ve read in this debate. - And speaking of running with weapons, what happened to the lore aspect you were so adamant about? I thought it “literally” didn’t make sense for a Spartan to Sprint while firing a weapon? I mean the whole purpose of Sprint was because of a need to go somewhere above all else, forgoing dealing damage.First of all- the lore argument remains as is. With sprint spartans can run faster as needed when the situation demands it. With one BMS all Spartans lumber around at the same speed all the time regardless of the circumstances, which (as demonstrated with the Classic Halos) is monotonous, robotic, and clunky by default… The whole pressure sensitive joystick idea doesn’t solve this issue, it just compounds it- of course everyone would hammer the thumb stick out to the max all the time anyway, bringing us right back to square one with classic Halo movement mechanics; plus it would decrease controllability and the deliberateness of your movement speed that Halo’s always offered. Per your second point, sure that’s how sprint is presented right now, but two permanent BMS’ doesn’t always have to be that way. It would be really interesting to see Halo Infinite introduce the ability to sprint and shoot with small arms (or potentially even all weapons); so long as we still get two permanent BMS’ to choose between. The definition of what constitutes “small arms,” is not as important as the concept. Surely the game developers could find ways to balance sprinting with small arms, if they choose to go this route. - I hope that’s not double standards I’m smelling.Are you seriously trying to take this tangent you’ve created as far as you can possibly go? It’s complete arrogance at this point because in the outside chance that you were just flat out confused, I’ve already fully clarified this issue for you before (and once again in this post) and yet you still continue to press as if you’re completely ignorant to both my original point in this regard, and even my argument as a whole. It’s unnecessary and serves no benefit to the discussion- it’s merely twisted and flawed logic which you’ve skewed to serve your agenda. I’m not suggesting that your ideas aren’t feasible for you (based on your own preference for movement speeds), I’m just asserting that removing sprint doesn’t constitute a compromise in this debate. - Except this time you can’t deal damage.Yes you can. Have you played Halo 5? Not only can you absolutely deal damage when you’re sprinting (À la Shoulder Charge), but once you’ve closed the distance (thanks solely to two BMS’) you can easily come out of sprint to engage your opponent; instead of continuously moving around the map looking for each other at the exact same BMS.

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> -again snip-

"That is definitely no compromise and (based off your routine tongue-in-cheek replies) I’m 99% certain that you know it. It’s false for you to suggest that completely cutting sprint is a compromise- it’s not, it’s just you getting your way." - That’s no different from you saying that you cannot remove Sprint no matter what and calling other uses a compromise. It’s you getting your way. You even go as far as calling people against Sprint stubborn, objectively wrong, and lost in nostalgia. That’s why I always said that there is no compromise with you. It’s a binary issue. Sprint exists or Sprint doesn’t exist. Any variation of an attempt at compromise simply falls in one of those two sections and we come right back to the “that’s no a compromise!” argument, unless 343i makes the equivalent of two games to satisfy one mechanic.

"I did not- As I have clarified multiple times, “speed boost,” in H2A was nothing more than a mere taste of what sprint could given us in the original game. That’s it- that was the purpose of that example. It’s not a substitute for sprint and its definitely not a substitute for two permanent BMS’." - You literally called it “Sprint.” You called it fun and working as intended within the parameters of a game that wasn’t built around Sprint. It’s not even an implication or taking your words out of context, you directly said it. By all intents and purposes, you should still be capable of having fun if the same thing was implemented in another Halo game. It’s only now that you’re saying that it’s no longer satisfactory and needs to be “entirely Sprint.”

"There are multiple problems trying to push “speed boost” as a substitute, to include that: speed boost is temporary, usually only one person on the map can get it at any given point in time, and it wears off quickly, with a very long respawn timer (~2:00 per speed boost spawn, which means in a ~10 minute game it can only be used about 4x in total)… Not to mention the sheer unbalanced OP’ness that happens when only one person in the entire game is moving faster than everyone else)" - Which means you’re contradicting your previous statement about it working as intended, since apparently Speed Boost is “unbalanced and OP”?

In which case, how is it OP in the first place? That’s the very purpose of a power up! Is it OP that one person has twice the shields of everyone else in the game? Or when one person can literally be invisible? That’s the incentive of picking it up on the map, and fighting other people to get to it.

"First of all- the lore argument remains as is. With sprint spartans can run faster as needed when the situation demands it. With one BMS all Spartans lumber around at the same speed all the time regardless of the circumstances, which (as demonstrated with the Classic Halos) is monotonous, robotic, and clunky by default…" - Which still works against lore because it “by definition”, it doesn’t make sense for them to Sprint while willing to shoot. That means circumstances aren’t enough to move “full speed” as people call it. You call it “monotonous, robotic, and clunky”, yet that is still your opinion, an opinion you used to chastise others for. Also, how fast you move can be faked, or fooled due to bias. A prime example is your comment about Halo 3 being slower than the others, when that objectively isn’t true.

Lore has nothing to do with gameplay. The fact that you’re pushing “shooting while sprinting” now is a strong example of that.

"The whole pressure sensitive joystick idea doesn’t solve this issue, it just compounds it- of course everyone would hammer the thumb stick out to the max all the time anyway, bringing us right back to square one with classic Halo movement mechanics" - You’ve literally proven Tsassi’s point in a different comment.

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> After all, it’s not as if you couldn’t run at two different speeds in classic Halo games. You absolutely could. In fact, you could run at at least 256 different speeds (or however many bits of the precision of the analog stick the games used), but players rarely if ever made use of that freedom. However, it would be an understatement to say that players rarely took advantage of that freedom. For all practical purposes, Halo 5 doesn’t have any more movement modes than classic games did, all it does is prevent the player from shooting when moving at the highest speed. If you want to move slower than maximum speed in classic Halo, you can absolutely do it.

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> Does anyone need more granularity to their movement than the analog stick provides? I very, very much doubt it. In fact, even that amount of granularity is completely overkill, as evidenced by the fact that players rarely, if ever, make use of it. Even in games like where movement speed affects accuracy, players get by with two speeds. In Halo the only advantage of moving slower than maximum speed is sneaking, and even that is rarely a useful action to take.

With Sprint (or rather, your compromise for Sprint), it’s no different. Everyone would Sprint all the time since you can shoot while doing it, you’re doing everything that you can in the slower BMS, so why would you purposely limit yourself to go slower? The only reason we choose not to Sprint now is because we can’t shoot while doing so.

"Yes you can. Have you played Halo 5? Not only can you absolutely deal damage when you’re sprinting (À la Shoulder Charge), but once you’ve closed the distance (thanks solely to two BMS’) you can easily come out of sprint to engage your opponent; instead of continuously moving around the map looking for each other at the exact same BMS." - Spartan Charge only works from a short distance and is essentially a replacement for melee. If you’re close enough to where you’re capable of using Spartan Charge effectively in a chase, then you didn’t need to chase them in the first place. You can damage them reliably with any weapon outside of a Shotgun.

And how are you closing the distance? You’re both Sprinting, you’re both moving the exact same speed. You’ve started that continuous loop that you said happens only with one BMS. The slower BMS is irrelevant here, because as you said: “of course everyone would hammer the thumb stick out to the max all the time.” With that logic, it’s not monotonous in the older games either. You have crouch, that’s a different movement speed. Why aren’t people crouch walking during chases and have regular movement break the “monotony”?

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It is amazing this post is still going on years later.

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> - That’s no different from you saying that you cannot remove Sprint no matter what and calling other uses a compromise. It’s you getting your way…It’s entirely different. There have been a wide array of split compromises suggested all across the Internet and as discussed they’re (apparently) just not good enough for your own standards. Anti sprinters’ biggest point of contention against a split compromise appears to be map design, but this doesn’t hold up against every potential solution. For instance if you have one BMS set up to be like tsassi’s recommendation, it would theoretically cap out around the same top speed as sprint would; therefore the map sizes should be roughly the same size to accommodate both sprint and no sprint playlists. - You literally called it "Sprint.” It’s not even an implication or taking your words out of context -snip-Yes you are intentionally taking what I said out of context to suit your agenda and in continually doing so at this point you’re all but trolling over semantics. Again and again I’ve clarified but you refuse to understand plain English. Speed boost was not and is not ever going to be an acceptable substitute to sprint. There are multiple problems trying to push “speed boost” as a substitute, to include that: speed boost is temporary, only one person on the map can get it at any given point in time, and it wears off quickly, with a very long respawn timer (~2:00 per speed boost spawn, which means in a ~10 minute game it can only be used about 4x in total. The effects only last either as long as you can stay alive or about a minute and each time it spawns you only even get a 1 in 10 chance to even get this (very temporary) pick up in a 5v5 match… Not to mention the sheer unbalanced OP’ness that happens when only one person in the entire game is moving faster than everyone else) - Which means you’re contradicting your previous statement about it working as intended, since apparently Speed Boost is “unbalanced and OP”?You know what? I went back and redacted that post since you’re evidently focused on semantics to push your argument. Once again, Speed boost in H2A was a mere taste of what permanent sprint could have been in the original game. Speed boost is not, was not, and will not ever be sprint. - Which still works against lore -snip-At this point we are just going back and forth over the same thing over and over. I definitely completely disagree with your logic on the lore perspective (I wouldn’t even call it an “argument,” because using lore against multiple BMS’ just doesn’t hold any water) and I’ll stand by my previous posts on this issue. - Lore has nothing to do with gameplay.Then why have you been contrad****icting yourself so much lately by trying to lean on lore to push your anti sprint agenda? I know you’re trying your very best to push back against everything you consider pro sprint, but you can’t have it both ways.
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> - With Sprint (or rather, your compromise for Sprint), it’s no different. Everyone would Sprint all the time since you can shoot while doing it, you’re doing everything that you can in the slower BMS, so why would you purposely limit yourself to go slower? The only reason we choose not to Sprint now is because we can’t shoot while doing so.No way- everyone does not sprint all the time now; nor would they sprint all the time if you could sprint and shoot at the same time. By default the player can still fire much better and more accurately at slower, walking speeds because it’s a much more stable shot. If you crammed all movement speed into one BMS then you’d reduce the movement control that Halo’s always offered to players. You either walk at the same speed, or (in modern Halo) you can also sprint at the same speed. If all the movement speed gets crunched into one joystick then the player loses this control over their movement. And having everyone mash the thumb stick for the top BMS just doesn’t offer an alternative to two permanent BMS’. Why couldn’t you consider having the ability to run at a faster movement speed while firing your weapons? Wouldn’t this solve your whole, “meh I don’t want to lower my weapon to move faster,” issue? What’s the real problem with this variant instead? - And how are you closing the distance? You’re both Sprinting, you’re both moving the exact same speed.Except that, exactly as you stated when you defended classic movement, that doesn’t happen. The only difference with having two BMS’ (again it doesn’t have to be “sprint,” in the traditional sense) is that there is the ability to break the continuous loop. If one person is moving at a slower speed and the other person is running then the walking person can be caught up with. Versus one BMS, where both players will always move at the same speed no matter what. - Also @FightingChances- interesting discussion about map design. Personally I really think that good map design is less contingent on movement mechanics then some are making it appear to be. Sure it’s a factor (to an extent), but movement mechanics definitely aren’t everything when it comes to designing great and memorable multiplayer maps. At least 343i did us all a solid in Halo 5 by bringing back many of the best maps from the original trilogy.

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"It’s entirely different. There have been a wide array of split compromises suggested all across the Internet and as discussed they’re just not good enough for you." - Which is again, no different than you. We’re both saying things from the opposite side with at least one core component that we refuse to budge on, which are completely opposite from each other. All of the compromises will be either “Sprint” or “no Sprint” in some way. Those that manage to do both either require two games, two sets of maps, two sandboxes, or two copies of playlists. And as 343i’s track record with Halo 5 have shown, they struggle in the latter three areas doing just one.

"You know what? I went back and redacted that post since you’re clearly obsessed with semantics." - How am I arguing semantics? That’s exactly what you said and is one of your main arguments against using Speed Boost powerups instead of Sprint. You even said it again while saying that, so you redacting the first post doesn’t really do anything. Is it too much to ask you to explain that part, especially when I said that one person moving faster is no different than one person having extra shields or one person being invisible? There’s a reason why all three are in Halo 5. Speed Boost didn’t change across not one, but five Halo games, why didn’t the developers fix what was unbalanced?

"Then why have you been contradicting yourself so much lately by trying to lean on lore to push your anti sprint agenda?" - To show the hypocrisy of you and other people trying to use lore to justify Sprint and only Sprint? Hence the comments people use including but not limited to:

  • “feeling like a real Spartan” - “doing what they did in the lore” - “doing things that just make sense for an augmented super soldier” - “realism” - "immersion"That’s why no one has responded to the Halo Legends video that people (including you specifically) have personally seen and replied to, continuing to say that “it just doesn’t make sense!”

I don’t need lore to tell me why game mechanics don’t exist. I didn’t need lore to tell me I can or can’t Sprint. I didn’t need lore to tell me why I’m shooting other Spartans with lethal weapons in a multiplayer game when we’re on the same side against space aliens. Lore is irrelevant to my gameplay experience (otherwise Firefight wouldn’t be very popular), it’s there to tell me a story.

"No way- everyone does not sprint all the time now; nor would they sprint all the time if you could sprint and shoot at the same time. By default the player can still fire much better and more accurately at slower, walking speeds because it’s a much more stable shot." - Concepts like this already exist in other games where people run around constantly, like Titanfall having a whole metagame around it and Call of Duty having perks like Airborne in COD:WW2.

And in situations where you don’t have to be perfectly accurate (as in, not precision weapons), it’s nothing but a buff, since you can close the distance faster while dealing damage with automatic weapons, and ideally use melee at the end of it.

"If you crammed all movement speed into one BMS then you’d reduce the movement control that Halo’s always offered players." - It’s no less what we’ve always had since Halo CE. Or even DOOM for that matter, since you “feel” like you move even faster than that. Or changes in FOV, since that makes a difference too.

"Why couldn’t you consider having the ability to run while firing your weapons? What’s the real problem with this variant instead?" - Because the first, slower BMS, is fundamentally useless. Your new Sprint variant is now capable of doing everything that the first one can do, if not more. It’s just like Halo 5’s new radar where crouching is fundamentally useless, because walking keeps you off radar, but you move faster now. Crouching was reduced to mainly ducking under shots. Guns and explosions are still meant to hit sprinting opponents, meaning that anytime you are not Sprinting, you are put at a disadvantage because you now move too slow. That’s why grenades had that semi-recent update in Halo 5 because people kept Thrusting and running away with little to no damage from the explosion.

Also my other problem I always state, it still can be used forwards and only forwards. That means you have more options going forwards than moving sideways or backwards. A jump that you make forwards is not always a jump you can make sideways or backwards. In extreme cases, that means map traversal can only be done forwards - and with the inclusion of Clamber, that extends even more, because you can’t Clamber going sideways or backwards, so even simple jumps would only be made going forwards.)

"Except that, exactly as you stated when defended the sprint, that doesn’t happen. The only difference with having two BMS’ (again it doesn’t have to be “sprint,” in the traditional sense) is that there is the ability to break the continuous loop. If one person is moving at a slower speed and the other person is running then the walking person can be caught up with." - Except if you’re in a chase/cat-and-mouse game, which is the point of you creating this argument, you would be Sprinting (or otherwise your max speed, whatever it’s called) regardless of however many BMS you have. The objectives of both cat and mouse require them to go at max speed. There is no reason for either side to go at a slower speed (outside of a third party), so the distance will never close. Therefore, the only way the continuous loop is broken is for someone to purposely go slower than they should.

And if that’s all it takes, why doesn’t one of them just crouch walk? You didn’t acknowledge that. That’s breaking the loop, and since one person is going slower, the distance between them changes. Guess it’s no longer monotonous and no one is chasing each other forever.

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> - __"It’s entirely different. There have been a wide array of split compromises suggested all across the Internet and as discussed they’re just not good enough for you." -__Which is again, no different than you.Once again, it’s entirely different. In my version of a compromise you get some playlists with sprint, some without… In your version of getting your way (it’s definitely not a “compromise”) there’s just no sprint at all. - How am I arguing semantics? That’s exactly what you said…Alright enough is enough when it comes to this speed boost thing. You’re far too intelligent for me to believe that you somehow can’t comprehend what I’ve told you multiple times regarding my clarification on the matter. Therefore I’m convinced that you must be flame baiting on this point and I refuse to concede such a desired reply. Once again, in the simplest of terms that I can put it to you… Everyone knows that speed boost is not the same as sprint (clearly made evident by the fact that so many anti sprinters seem to be gunning for this), nor is it even close to a substitute for two permanent BMS’. As such it’s most definitely not even close to even being considered as some sort of compromise for cutting sprint. Whatever else you want to try to say or feel about speed boost is completely your prerogative but stop trying to put words into my mouth on this topic. - "Then why have you been contradicting yourself so much lately by trying to lean on lore to push your anti sprint agenda?" - To show the hypocrisy of you and other people trying to use lore to justify Sprint and only Sprint?I dont really know what to say really… On one hand I genuinly want to give you props for, if nothing else, being able to step up and shoot it straight to me on this one. On the other hand your argument is now clearly based upon a “fight fire with fire,” approach. But how should it be any better for you to push forward a hypocritical argument like this? Honestly it’s clear you don’t believe that any aspect of lore benefits gameplay whatsoever so it was better when you just flat out argued against it; versus pushing a pseudo-argument that you don’t even believe in. What it demonstrates to me is just how far you’re willing to go (for better or for worse, in this case) to try and attack anything remotely considered pro sprint. - That’s why no one has responded to the Halo Legends video that people (including you specifically) have personally seen and replied to, continuing to say that "it just doesn’t make sense!“I’ve seen it- again I’m cool with running and gunning as long as there are two distinct BMS’ to choose between. Honestly I’d still rather have the movement mechanics remain closer to what they were in Halo 5, but alternatively sprinting while being able to fire small arms is the next best option… Sprinting while firing with any weapon, while not my favorite compromise, would still be much better than tossing out sprint entirely. - I don’t need lore to tell me why game mechanics don’t exist. I didn’t need lore to tell me I can or can’t Sprint. I didn’t need lore to tell me why I’m shooting other Spartans with lethal weapons in a multiplayer game when we’re on the same side against space aliens. Lore is irrelevant to my gameplay experience (otherwise Firefight wouldn’t be very popular), it’s there to tell me a story.Abhh, there’s my normal antisprint approach to lore… Alrighty, you do you- I still like my Spartans to be more somewhat realistic (to a reasonable extent), but thank you for being yourself again. :wink: - "No way- everyone does not sprint all the time now; nor would they sprint all the time if you could sprint and shoot at the same time. By default the player can still fire much better and more accurately at slower, walking speeds because it’s a much more stable shot.” - Concepts like this already exist in other games where people run around constantly, like Titanfall having a whole metagame around it and Call of Duty having perks like Airborne in COD:WW2.Honestly those games play sooo much differently than Halo I just can’t see the direct comparison. If Halo were to incorporate sprinting while shooting I’m pretty confident it would still retain its own distinct flavor. - And in situations where you don’t have to be perfectly accurate (as in, not precision weapons), it’s nothing but a buff, since you can close the distance faster while dealing damage with automatic weapons, and ideally use melee at the end of it.Maybe, in some circumstances… But I think this would depend on how the mid to long range weapons performed, along with the size of the hit box for the head. You could be right but I think it’s an extremely small, outside chance that the majority of encounters would devolve into such a repititious cycle. - “If you crammed all movement speed into one BMS then you’d reduce the movement control that Halo’s always offered players.” - It’s no less what we’ve always had since Halo CE. Or even DOOM for that matter, since you “feel” like you move even faster than that. Or changes in FOV, since that makes a difference too.I don’t play Doom- For FPS’ I really mainly play Halo. I do know for sure that Halo has always felt faster, more realistic (to me), more fluid and the Spartans are more agile when sprint is present. Is it always perfect? No, clearly not (I’ll give you that), but it’s a heck of a lot better than one static BMS. I’d rather see 343i keep on tweaking and improving the two permanent BMS system they’ve implemented up until now, even if that means changing what Spartans can do while sprinting. - “Except that, exactly as you stated when defended the sprint, that doesn’t happen. The only difference with having two BMS’ (again it doesn’t have to be “sprint,” in the traditional sense) is that there is the ability to break the continuous loop. If one person is moving at a slower speed and the other person is running then the walking person can be caught up with.” - Except if you’re in a chase/cat-and-mouse game, which is the point of you creating this argument, you would be Sprinting (or otherwise your max speed, whatever it’s called) regardless of however many BMS you have. The objectives of both cat and mouse require them to go at max speed. There is no reason for either side to go at a slower speed (outside of a third party), so the distance will never close. Therefore, the only way the continuous loop is broken is for someone to purposely go slower than they should.Why do you get to determine all the rules for “Cat and Mouse,” like that? If one person walks and the other runs then the cycle is broken… If both players continue to move at the same speed then they could go on forever. Where does this artificial constraint that “they both have to be moving at max speed,” even come from? After all, sprint does provide you with the choice to decide when you want to move at max speed versus the max speed constraint that innately comes along with one static BMS. - And if that’s all it takes, why doesn’t one of them just crouch walk? You didn’t acknowledge that.Crouch walking is irrelevant in this discussion because it’s a constant in both instances. Since the ability to crouch walk is present in both situations it really doesn’t benefit either side in this regard.

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> > - Also @FightingChances- interesting discussion about map design. Personally I really think that good map design is less contingent on movement mechanics then some are making it appear to be. Sure it’s a factor (to an extent), but movement mechanics definitely aren’t everything when it comes to designing great and memorable multiplayer maps. At least 343i did us all a solid in Halo 5 by bringing back many of the best maps from the original trilogy.
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> Good map design is less contingent on movement mechanics. Good map design lets players play how they want, which isn’t what Halo 5’s maps are about. Halo 5’s maps are all about player movement and player empowerment, which is why there aren’t any vehicles in Arena at all. My point was that 343’s map design in Halo 5 relies heavily on Spartan Abilities and making all of them find some use in each map, which caused changes in how the game plays compared with Bungie’s titles. They could have alleviated some of the anti-sprinters’ concerns by designing good maps first rather than designing maps, with a competitive mindset mind you, around SAs. There’s only so many situations you can put yourself in when designing a map around movement abilities like SAs before running into a deja-vu feeling on different maps.

I mean, yeah they might have gone a little overboard on all the SA’s. Honestly as long as they keep two permanent BMS’ to choose between, I’m okay with them tossing aside many of the new SA’s (Especially Ground Pound). That said I don’t necessary buy in that Halo 5’s maps suffered so much directly because of the SA’s. The maps could have definitely been much better in many ways, but to me the movement mechanics just aren’t the primary scapegoat. They need to pick up their game and (as you stated) provide us with much more variety in the levels but an overall lack of creativity in multiplayer map design isn’t necessarily directly attributable to movement mechanics. Perhaps allowing competitive players to influence all of the MP Arena map designs so heavily became a major flaw against creativity and uniqueness in Halo 5’s Arena maps. They also needed more maps at launch in order to break up so many of the repetitious encounters (Especially in Warzone). Either way, regardless of all the reasons behind the problems with Halo 5’s maps, I’m definitely onboard with you on this- hopefully they’ll do a better job next time with creativity and uniqueness in the MP maps.

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> > > > - Also @FightingChances- interesting discussion about map design. Personally I really think that good map design is less contingent on movement mechanics then some are making it appear to be. Sure it’s a factor (to an extent), but movement mechanics definitely aren’t everything when it comes to designing great and memorable multiplayer maps. At least 343i did us all a solid in Halo 5 by bringing back many of the best maps from the original trilogy.
> > >
> > > Good map design is less contingent on movement mechanics. Good map design lets players play how they want, which isn’t what Halo 5’s maps are about. Halo 5’s maps are all about player movement and player empowerment, which is why there aren’t any vehicles in Arena at all. My point was that 343’s map design in Halo 5 relies heavily on Spartan Abilities and making all of them find some use in each map, which caused changes in how the game plays compared with Bungie’s titles. They could have alleviated some of the anti-sprinters’ concerns by designing good maps first rather than designing maps, with a competitive mindset mind you, around SAs. There’s only so many situations you can put yourself in when designing a map around movement abilities like SAs before running into a deja-vu feeling on different maps.
> >
> > I mean, yeah they might have gone a little overboard on all the SA’s. Honestly as long as they keep two permanent BMS’ to choose between, I’m okay with them tossing aside many of the new SA’s (Especially Ground Pound). That said I don’t necessary buy in 100% that Halo 5’s maps suffered directly because of the SA’s. The maps could have definitely been much better in many ways, but to me the movement mechanics just aren’t the primary scapegoat. They need to pick up their game and (as you stated) provide us with much more variety in the levels but an overall lack of creativity in multiplayer map design isn’t necessarily directly attributable to movement mechanics. Perhaps letting competitive players influence all of the MP Arena map designs so heavily was became a flaw against creativity and uniqueness in Halo 5’s Arena maps.
>
> Of course, but the SAs are a major part of why the maps “suffered.” Most of the maps’ designs are because of the competitive mindset 343 brought into every part of the design game, and a competitive mindset usually entails designing around anything players can do at all times, which in this case is Spartan Abilities, and for a game like Overwatch or DoTA is the cooldown abilities.
>
> For a side observation, designing a game with a competitive mindset, in addition to focusing around one aspect of it, doesn’t bode well for that game if it wants to grow the casual audience in addition to its competitive audience. Based on multiplayer games that have released in the last ten or so years across different genres, designing for casual audiences while balancing for the competitive community seems to be essential in how to grow a game’s playerbase. There are exceptions of course, such as Rainbow Six Siege and Tekken 7, but generally, that analysis seems to hold true, especially when taking into account how many people seem to be playing casually versus competitively. It should be noted that, in this case, “casual audience/community” means gamers who enjoy a game for what it is, and not the lowest common denominator of gamers.

I sorta folly [follow], and I definitely fully understand your argument here. I absolutely agree that Halo 5’s MP maps were flawed in that they were overly basic, provided repititious combat encounters, and too similar to one another; primarily due to the heavy influence that MLG players were allowed to contribute during the development cycle. I remember watching that during The Sprint clips for the making of Halo 5, which (cool as they were) really showed how competitive players got to shape just about everything that they wanted into the Arena map designs in Halo 5. And as you were saying, I actually do recall that clamber was certainly highlighted as something they considered when designing those maps…

The only thing I’d say is that while SA’s may have contributed in part to shortfalls in Halo 5’s arena MP maps, I’m just not sold that they were the biggest reason why 343i wasn’t able to produce better maps. I’d wager that allowing competitive players to so heavily influence designs of the maps detracted the most from creativity and uniqueness (regardless of SA’s). What I mean is that all those Arena MP maps would have suffered from all those same problems we’re talking about with or without those SA’s. You’d have still ended up with repititious encounters around mostly bilateral map designs that would have still detracted from any potential creativity and uniqueness. And you definitely still wouldn’t have had enough maps at launch (especially in Warzone).

And I’m not saying you’re wrong or anything either- I mean you put forth a compelling case. Those are just my thoughts on the matter.

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"Once again, it’s entirely different. In my version of a compromise you get some playlists with sprint, some without… In your version of getting your way (it’s definitely not a “compromise”) there’s just no sprint at all." - So basically what I said: two playlists. You’ll need a Slayer with Sprint, a Slayer without. A CTF with Sprint, a CTF without. A BTB with Sprint, a BTB without.

I’m sure you’ll say that not every playlist needs a double, but then what determines what does and what doesn’t? As soon as one playlist gets one mode of movement, you’ll be right back to people arguing that Sprint deserves to stay or Sprint deserves to leave.

And this is all assuming that 343i even wants to do that, develop two near-identical playlists, because that just means twice the balancing for two different movement styles.

“Whatever else you want to try to say or feel about speed boost is completely your prerogative but stop trying to put words into my mouth on this topic." - I seriously didn’t put words in your mouth. You were the one that found it fun and worked very well. “Heck sprint even functioned very well in H2A (via a “speed boost pickup,” which was pretty fun to mess around with and also sad that it wasn’t in the original game).”****"On the other hand your argument is now clearly based upon a “fight fire with fire,” approach. But how should it be any better for you to push forward a hypocritical argument like this? Honestly it’s clear you don’t believe that any aspect of lore benefits gameplay whatsoever so it was better when you just flat out argued against it; versus pushing a pseudo-argument instead that you don’t even believe in yourself.” - Taking an argument and showing where it falters in other areas is pretty much a valid approach, and can sometimes get one to reconsider their original argument (as long as it’s not a false equivalence). If the game should accommodate for Sprinting due to lore, why shouldn’t it accommodate for ADS, something that also changed due to lore and realism? Why is the line drawn only at Sprinting, but not swimming or fistfighting? Either there is something based in the lore that makes the latter not true (which there isn’t), or there is some bias towards Sprint that uses lore as an excuse, however flawed it may be.
"Seen it- again I’m cool with running and gunning as long as there are two distinct BMS’ to choose between. Honestly I’d still rather have the basic movement mechanics remain like they were in Halo 5, but alternatively “sprinting,” while being able to fire small arms is the next best alternative… “Sprinting,” while firing with any weapon, while not my favorite compromise, would still be much better than tossing sprint out entirely." - I wouldn’t find that as a compromise, that’s just Sprint under a different name. The problems I mentioned before are still there, and there’s a whole movement that’s completely useless because I could just be moving that fast in every direction and face less issues.

"I don’t play Doom- For FPS’ I really only play Halo. I do know for sure that Halo has always felt faster, more realistic (to me), more fluid and the Spartans are more agile when sprint is present." - In my experience, DOOM feels faster than Halo ever has, Sprint or no Sprint. To some people, it is actually too fast and Halo shouldn’t follow it word for word (which I agree with). But the notion of feeling faster is all arbitrary. The game can use something as simple as the camera to make you feel faster or slower and you would believe you really are. There’s even a (not so popular) video about changing the FOV in Battlefield 1, and look how he reacts to it.

"Why do you get to determine all the rules for “Cat and Mouse,” like that? If one person walks and the other runs then the cycle is broken… If both players continue to move at the same speed then they could go on forever. Where does this notion that “they both have to be moving at max speed,” constraint come from? After all, sprint does provide you with the choice to decide when you want to move at max speed versus the max speed constraint that innately comes along with one static BMS." - Because at that point it’s no longer a chase…

No matter which side of the chase you are, you have no reason to go anything slower than your max speed. If you were the victim, why would you walk away from your opponent, if you knew you could go faster? He’s going to get you. If you were the “cat”, why would you walk after your opponent, if you also knew you could go faster? He’s going to get away. If they’re both walking, then there’s another continuous loop. Walking, or otherwise going slower than max speed, is detrimental to your objective. That’s why I brought up crouch walking, because one always has the choice to crouch walk during a chase, but I highly doubt you would see that in practice.

"Crouch walking is irrelevant in this discussion because it’s a constant in both instances." - I know it is, but the point is that there is another Base Movement speed (I guess technicallyyyyyy, you could say we are arguing between 2 and 3 BMS, but semantics) that people choose to use, distinct from your max speed, also allows you to push the control stick all the way forward, but people rarely, if ever, use that option.

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> - “Whatever else you want to try to say or feel about speed boost is completely your prerogative but stop trying to put words into my mouth on this topic." - I seriously didn’t put words in your mouth. -snip-You really just can’t let it go. I don’t know how many times I have to clarify this to get through to you. As stated before, I went back and redacted that small part of my post because that’s not what I meant (and you definitely know it). TBH it really just originated from a copy + paste error anyway (And as I later quite clearly clarified**-** <strong>aside from providing an extremely temporary, microscopic taste of what two permanent BMS’ could have done to enhance the classic Halo experience- speed boost has never, nor will ever do anything else for those of us who want to keep sprint). So trying to quote that from me now doesn’t hold any water because it’s not even in any of my posts. You also know full well that speed boost is not even close to the same thing as sprint. Once more- Speed boost was not and is not ever going to be an acceptable substitute to sprint. There are multiple problems trying to push “speed boost” as a substitute, to include that: speed boost is temporary, only one person on the map can get it at any given point in time, and it wears off quickly, with a very long respawn timer (~2:00 per speed boost spawn, which means in a ~10 minute game it can only be used up to 4x in total. The effects only last either as long as you can stay alive or about a minute and each time it spawns you only even get a 1 in 10 chance to even get this (very temporary) pick up in a 5v5 match… Not to mention the sheer unbalanced OP’ness that happens when only one person in the entire game is moving faster than everyone else)</strong> - "On the other hand your argument is now clearly based upon a “fight fire with fire,” approach. But how should it be any better for you to push forward a hypocritical argument like this? Honestly it’s clear you don’t believe that any aspect of lore benefits gameplay whatsoever so it was better when you just flat out argued against it; versus pushing a pseudo-argument instead that you don’t even believe in yourself.” - Taking an argument and showing where it falters in other areas is pretty much a valid approach, and can sometimes get one to reconsider their original argument (as long as it’s not a false equivalence). If the game should accommodate for Sprinting due to lore, why shouldn’t it accommodate for ADS, something that also changed due to lore and realism? Why is the line drawn only at Sprinting, but not swimming or fistfighting? Either there is something based in the lore that makes the latter not true (which there isn’t), or there is some bias towards Sprint that uses lore as an excuse, however flawed it may be.So basically you admit to taking an approach on the lore discussion that you don’t even agree with, but then attempt to justify it because… You think the other side is flawed and you’re going to show them why… Bravo

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> If you crammed all movement speed into one BMS then you’d reduce the movement control that Halo’s always offered to players. You either walk at the same speed, or (in modern Halo) you can also sprint at the same speed. If all the movement speed gets crunched into one joystick then the player loses this control over their movement.

This is demonstrably false. The analog stick has plenty of precision for movement control. We know this, because it’s used for a task that requires much more control from the player than movement: aiming. However, we also know that players don’t really need that additional granularity. Moving slower than the maximum speed at which one can shoot almost never offers any benefit, because players can control themselves just fine at maximum speed. This issue you’re trying to sell us is entirely made up.

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> And having everyone mash the thumb stick for the top BMS just doesn’t offer an alternative to two permanent BMS’. Why couldn’t you consider having the ability to run at a faster movement speed while firing your weapons? Wouldn’t this solve your whole, “meh I don’t want to lower my weapon to move faster,” issue? What’s the real problem with this variant instead?

Let me get this straight: you would be fine if sprint was nothing but a button, á la original Doom, that just made you move faster with no drawbacks? Because this is what it sounds like to me you’re suggesting.

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> Except that, exactly as you stated when you defended classic movement, that doesn’t happen. The only difference with having two BMS’ (again it doesn’t have to be “sprint,” in the traditional sense) is that there is the ability to break the continuous loop. If one person is moving at a slower speed and the other person is running then the walking person can be caught up with. Versus one BMS, where both players will always move at the same speed no matter what.

Here, too, you’ve cooked us a situation that doesn’t exist in the real world. Players don’t move in a circle around the map at constant speed, never stopping, never changing directions. That is not how players move, even on a map with a circular structure. They search for power weapons, they try to find the high ground, they try to avoid low ground, and they stop to check sight lines. Their movement is much more erratic than you make it out to be. If there are only two players on the map, and one doesn’t find the other, it’s solely by chance.

Not to mention, of course, that in actual gameplay a situation where a player doesn’t find anyone is exceedingly unlikely. It can happen on some maps in 1v1, but this has nothing to do with movement mechanics, and all to do with the map design. In 2v2 to it becomes very unlikely, unless the teammates are glued to each other. As soon as you have eight players, it literally never happens, because there are so many players that at least some of them are in combat at any given moment, and if there’s combat, it’s easy for a player to navigate to it.

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Where is the sprint?

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> So basically you admit to taking an approach on the lore discussion that you don’t even agree with, but then attempt to justify it because… You think the other side is flawed and you’re going to show them why… Bravo

Advocatus Diaboli