The sprint discussion thread

Games Halo 5: Guardians
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> > > > > Sprint doesn’t slow the pace of the game That’s utter rubbish.
> >
> > Again. We have proven that Sprint heavily breaks the game.
>
> False.
>
> The only thing you’ve effectively accomplished here is to endlessly complain about why you personally don’t think sprint is good for the game. You’ve proven nothing about it supposedly “breaking,” the game- sprint works just fine in Reach, H4, and H5. Aside from your own griping, there’s nothing “broken,” about those games; nor would Infinite be any worse for the wear with sprint’s inclusion.

  1. Time to re-enter the fight. There’s a careful balance, especially with objective games, where killing a member of the other team doesn’t just give you a point or a new vid to plaster on your youtube. It’s about freeing up the battlefield. Kill this guy and he has to respawn, putting his team at a disadvantage while you play the objective or mop up his team. By giving players an automatic button that enables faster movement you reduce the time it takes that player to re-enter the fight. This can cause chaos and reduce the skill gap. Rather than players taking control and making pushes when they see a good opportunity, it’s likely that the team will respawn and be back on you before you’ve reloaded. The only way to mitigate against that is through map design. This takes us in to number 2.

2a) Map design. Because players have new speeds and abilities for traversing the map, all that needs to be taken in to account when designing a map. This means the distance between locations either have to be extended, or the travel time is thrown out of whack. People have tested this, and it’s definitely been a factor for 343i when designing Halo 5. So the end result now, isn’t that players are entering the fights earlier, but that they are forced to sprint in order to traverse maps as fast as they did in classic games. As you can see in the video, Halo 5’s sprint is actually slower than Halo 3’s “jog”. 343i have turned what was as simple as pushing a stick in the direction you wanted to go in to a whole mess of button pressing and forward movement just to be able to achieve the same goal. Players are spending more time sprinting forward as a result.

2b) Map control. With the change in the maps’ designs, comes a change in the controlling of the maps. This was a key feature to Halo. Unlike the sprinting and killing of COD and even Battlefield, holding down key spots was essential to victory in Halo. But because players are encouraged to move around, and because they can no longer lock down more than a corridor (with the maps being so larger and isolated now) it’s no longer viable to just hold that position. Because you can no longer gently switch positions, you either camp where you are and likely get the other team flush you out, or you sprint between two locations and let your guard down. Gone are the days of swiftly swapping holding points to keep the other team down while also watching your own flank.

3a) Combat readiness. Because of ‘2’, players aren’t ready to cover and support teammates, they aren’t even scanning their surroundings for enemies or teammates, because they are too busy looking forward and trying go from A to B. This has a dramatic affect on the way the game is played. It’s no longer a team based game, it’s more about just sprint down this one long hallway and maybe if you bump in to someone, shooting a guy. It takes all the teamwork right out of the game, and compared to games the classic games competed against, like COD, this was one of the defining aspects of the franchise. That teamwork was key.

3b) Combat distances. Because of those increased map and corridor sizes, instead of fighting a guy at close to mid range with ARs and BRs, you fighting at mid to long ranges. This throws off the balance and roles for the weapons. But since all that has gone right out of the window, the way individual combat unfolds.

  1. Weapon roles. So along with increased grenade radius because of the increased movement options, you also have shotguns, SMGs and ARs that can zoom and since you are most likely fighting one enemy who is sprinting all over the place the weapon damage has to be increased in order to make sure getting a kill is possible at all.

  2. and lastly. Complexity vs depth. Now this one is key for me. It is actually a thing that goes in to every game, for every genre and every mechanic. The basic idea is to get… forget it. Watch the video. Then come back here and read the following. Sprint adds zero extra depth, but adds to the complexity. This is a not only useless to veteran players, but also off putting to absolute noobs to video games. It’s why Halo 3 had such a big following. It had a huge amount of depth for long term players, but its complexity was very low. It asked very little of players to learn how to play and to be able to play.

Sure, some players might find Halo 4 and 5 fun, but also look at the fact that Bungie looked at putting sprint in Halo 2, but it didn’t work, and the mechanic still didn’t get it Halo 3. It wasn’t until Reach that Bungie finally put Sprint in Halo, but only in a very limited form. You have to ask yourself, “If they wanted sprint in Halo since Halo 2, why did it take so long, and why did it only really half get in there under Bungie’s watch?”. Maybe because Bungie realised early on that sprint broke the very core design that had set out for Halo. Sprint breaks Halo. From the maps, to the weapons, to the very experience that players are presented with.

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> I’m still holding to my original opinion of Sprint that I expressed yesterday: that I’d rather have it than be without it.
>
> I just mainly see Sprint as a way to get into the combat faster and to avoid some of the circumstances that can be found in the previous games such as being caught in a slightly too open but necessary to cross area where, if you’re spotted and shot at first, you’re pretty much dead unless you turn out to be the better shot which doesn’t happen as often as some people may want to believe. At least according to my experiences. An unpopular opinion, but I rather liked Halo 4. I thought the campaign was fine - not the best, but fine enough for me to replay it more than once unlike 5’s rather lackluster campaign - , and while many probably sneer at things like the loadouts and ordnance, I didn’t mind them as much as I thought they added to the random fun in certain gametypes like BTB. That said, I didn’t mind seeing them go either. The loadouts aside, I rather enjoyed the maps and the Dominion game mode was one I sunk a lot of time in, second to BTB.

(quoting the whole thing makes it really long, sorry)

The problem isn’t Sprint being a way to get to combat faster, but the fact that it isn’t the only way to do that. It never was. If you want to feel faster, just increase the Base Movement Speed (or FoV). If the map wants you to get to a certain place faster, there will be some map addition to let you do that, since it’s the map that dictates how long you take to get from Point A to Point B.

Vehicles right now are probably in the worst place its ever been, being more death sentences than reliable (outside of flying vehicles).

"Once battle is joined, I forget about Sprint."

I mean, that’s expected, you can’t use Sprint in a battle, because you can’t deal damage with Sprint. So once you are in a battle, you have to forget about Sprint, because even 343i tried their best to prevent you from using Sprint in that situation. In fact, they don’t want you to use it to escape, that’s why you can lose Sprint if you get shot too early. So that contradicts the whole “getting away to cover when you get shot first”, because the intention was for you to be a better shot, not escape.

So you’re basically running around to traverse, but going really slow by comparison when doing anything else. Stop-and-shoot gameplay.

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> (quoting the whole thing makes it really long, sorry)
>
> The problem isn’t Sprint being a way to get to combat faster, but the fact that it isn’t the only way to do that. It never was. If you want to feel faster, just increase the Base Movement Speed (or FoV). If the map wants you to get to a certain place faster, there will be some map addition to let you do that, since it’s the map that dictates how long you take to get from Point A to Point B.
>
> Vehicles right now are probably in the worst place its ever been, being more death sentences than reliable (outside of flying vehicles).
>
> "Once battle is joined, I forget about Sprint."
>
> I mean, that’s expected, you can’t use Sprint in a battle, because you can’t deal damage with Sprint. So once you are in a battle, you have to forget about Sprint, because even 343i tried their best to prevent you from using Sprint in that situation.
>
> So you’re basically running around to traverse, but going really slow by comparison when doing anything else. Stop-and-shoot gameplay.

I mean that’s fair, but increasing base movement speed is balancing on that delicate line of either feeling too slow or just too fast both gameplay and visual perspective. Sprint is that option for those situations in previous Halos where you’re feeling too slow, but then hit the button to get you through it faster. I’m fine with that though, once more, I am speaking as a BTB player who more regularly runs into more open, empty areas in maps such as Sandtrap, Avalanche, and Valhalla where a vehicle may not be available at the time. All the way back in Blood Gulch of CE it was always rather silly for me to see people needing to grab Warthogs just for the sake of getting to those cliff paths that are right next to your base. To me, having Sprint is just natural for those moments where either a vehicle or a jump pad either wasn’t put in place or wasn’t necessary. And when I want to sneak around along the edge or the side of the map in order to reach an objective unnoticed, Sprint can help with most of the work before I revert to crouch walking to sneak in and get what I want.

As for the stop-and-shoot…I dunno. I think our opinions may be too divided on that but I never think of it as a bad thing. In fact, I just consider it as natural. Is it a bad thing to use Sprint to traverse and get to the battle faster and then forgetting about it? That’s how I think of it. This particular issue I just think is something we won’t be able to agree on anything other than to disagree, lol. While Halo 5 isn’t a good example what with all the different new movement mechanics like Thrust, I always felt Halo 4 still felt like Halo when I play it.

Although I will agree vehicles aren’t in the best of places right now when compared to the previous Halo games, at least when it comes to regular Mongooses and Warthogs. They certainly don’t feel effective as they used to. However, I don’t think this is strictly Sprint’s fault.

15909

As Vegeto and Richnj pointed out, sprint is really only there to feel faster. Yeah sure the actual movement speed of Halo 5 is faster, but since the maps are enlarged to make the travel time roughly the same(when sprinting), the impact is just not having your gun at the ready and only looking forward. This reduces combat effectiveness, situational awareness, forces changes to gunplay/maps, and hurts vehicles. This is what people mean when they say sprint hurts Halo’s gameplay. Such a simple addition requires so many changes.

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> > >
> >
> > (quoting the whole thing makes it really long, sorry)
> >
> > The problem isn’t Sprint being a way to get to combat faster, but the fact that it isn’t the only way to do that. It never was. If you want to feel faster, just increase the Base Movement Speed (or FoV). If the map wants you to get to a certain place faster, there will be some map addition to let you do that, since it’s the map that dictates how long you take to get from Point A to Point B.
> >
> > Vehicles right now are probably in the worst place its ever been, being more death sentences than reliable (outside of flying vehicles).
> >
> > "Once battle is joined, I forget about Sprint."
> >
> > I mean, that’s expected, you can’t use Sprint in a battle, because you can’t deal damage with Sprint. So once you are in a battle, you have to forget about Sprint, because even 343i tried their best to prevent you from using Sprint in that situation.
> >
> > So you’re basically running around to traverse, but going really slow by comparison when doing anything else. Stop-and-shoot gameplay.
>
> I mean that’s fair, but increasing base movement speed is balancing on that delicate line of either feeling too slow or just too fast both gameplay and visual perspective. Sprint is that option for those situations in previous Halos where you’re feeling too slow, but then hit the button to get you through it faster. I’m fine with that though, once more, I am speaking as a BTB player who more regularly runs into more open, empty areas in maps such as Sandtrap, Avalanche, and Valhalla where a vehicle may not be available at the time. All the way back in Blood Gulch of CE it was always rather silly for me to see people needing to grab Warthogs just for the sake of getting to those cliff paths that are right next to your base. To me, having Sprint is just natural for those moments where either a vehicle or a jump pad either wasn’t put in place or wasn’t necessary. And when I want to sneak around along the edge or the side of the map in order to reach an objective unnoticed, Sprint can help with most of the work before I revert to crouch walking to sneak in and get what I want.
>
> As for the stop-and-shoot…I dunno. I think our opinions may be too divided on that but I never think of it as a bad thing. In fact, I just consider it as natural. Is it a bad thing to use Sprint to traverse and get to the battle faster and then forgetting about it? That’s how I think of it. This particular issue I just think is something we won’t be able to agree on anything other than to disagree, lol. While Halo 5 isn’t a good example what with all the different new movement mechanics like Thrust, I always felt Halo 4 still felt like Halo when I play it.
>
> Although I will agree vehicles aren’t in the best of places right now when compared to the previous Halo games, at least when it comes to regular Mongooses and Warthogs. They certainly don’t feel effective as they used to. However, I don’t think this is strictly Sprint’s fault.

The thing is, that’s more of an aesthetic feeling over what’s actually going on in game. That can be changed, and also be fooled.

Case in point, people still don’t believe that Halo CE-3 are all going at nearly the exact same movement speed, and Reach is actually slower without Sprint.

Can that be recreated without having to put an actual game mechanic behind it? You could make it like DOOM, where you have a really high FOV. What if when you move forward, after a certain amount of time the wind streaks and the woosh sound comes on (like when you see the ability to Spartan Charge)? I’m sure that’ll give people the impression of moving faster, despite not actually changing speed.

I haven’t played Blood Gulch in a long time, but I’m pretty sure there are teleporters that take you to the center of the field for that exact purpose. It’s also a map that supports up to 16 people, so when you have a 4v4, it’ll feel a little expansive.

Maybe stop-and-shoot isn’t the best phrase, but definitely slow-down-and-shoot. The former is more like Call of Duty, but the latter is still different from “run-and-gun”, since you’re limited in the “run” part.

Mongooses at the very least I can claim have been affected by Sprint. It’s a vehicle who’s primary use is for fast transport, and Sprint tries to accomplish that fast transport that everyone can do everywhere. Guns are stronger to catch those faster players, which means they are also strong against those stationary people in a moving (unarmored) vehicle.

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> As Vegeto and Richnj pointed out, sprint is really only there to feel faster. Yeah sure the actual movement speed of Halo 5 is faster, but since the maps are enlarged to make the travel time roughly the same(when sprinting), the impact is just not having your gun at the ready and only looking forward. This reduces combat effectiveness, situational awareness, forces changes to gunplay/maps, and hurts vehicles. This is what people mean when they say sprint hurts Halo’s gameplay. Such a simple addition requires so many changes.

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> The thing is, that’s more of an aesthetic feeling over what’s actually going on in game. That can be changed, and also be fooled.
>
> Case in point, people still don’t believe that Halo CE-3 are all going at nearly the exact same movement speed, and Reach is actually slower without Sprint.
>
> Can that be recreated without having to put an actual game mechanic behind it? You could make it like DOOM, where you have a really high FOV. What if when you move forward, after a certain amount of time the wind streaks and the woosh sound comes on (like when you see the ability to Spartan Charge)? I’m sure that’ll give people the impression of moving faster, despite not actually changing speed.
>
> I haven’t played Blood Gulch in a long time, but I’m pretty sure there are teleporters that take you to the center of the field for that exact purpose. It’s also a map that supports up to 16 people, so when you have a 4v4, it’ll feel a little expansive.
>
> Maybe stop-and-shoot isn’t the best phrase, but definitely slow-down-and-shoot. The former is more like Call of Duty, but the latter is still different from “run-and-gun”, since you’re limited in the “run” part.
>
> Mongooses at the very least I can claim have been affected by Sprint. It’s a vehicle who’s primary use is for fast transport, and Sprint tries to accomplish that fast transport that everyone can do everywhere. Guns are stronger to catch those faster players, which means they are also strong against those stationary people in a moving (unarmored) vehicle.

Yeah, I guess I can give you Mongooses.

I dunno. Like I said, I’m mainly a BTB player. Save for an occassional 4v4 playlist that I’ll do once in a blue moon, I’ve always done BTB or some of the larger game types like Invasion in Reach and Dominion in Halo 4. I actually quite enjoyed Warzone in its initial months before players unlocked and stockpiled their REQs and games nowadays are just stompfests of who can get their Hannibals out first. This may be skewing my perspective and causing me to miss or outright ignore the more minute details of the introduction of Sprint in terms of its effects on gameplay. Or I may just honestly not care. All I can say that there were times that I wanted Spring back in the day, and after getting it in Halo 4 I’d just rather keep it. I’ve played Halo since CE, played multiplayer excessively since it came to PC and then onwards through 2 and 3. Reach’s multiplayer I never really got into despite it having one of - if not the best - campaigns but I do remember always using the Sprint module a lot.

When Halo 4 came out, it still felt like a Halo game to me even with things like Sprint. I was wary of the change of hands but I thought 343 did a good job with 4 despite a couple poor choices. It’s only with Halo 5 that I haven’t been satisfied and I believe it more to be 343 implementing too many things without really getting a handle on the consequences. I can only hope that player feedback and good judgement will set the next game back on the right tracks.

Until then, I don’t really feel like getting into one debate as I’m sure that there have been plenty more beforehand, many probably saying the same things as I have and in much greater detail than I want to get into. I’ve said my piece, and all we can do is wait and see what ends up happening when the sixth game appears. I, for one, just hope it is with Sprint, lol.

15912

Almost at the 800 page mark, and I am back!

What I am noticing is, from the beginning, the same anti-sprint folks are still here, explaining the same valid points to different pro sprint people who reiterate the same non-arguments as their long-gone predecessors.

Its been years, and still people cant understand the simple concept of how sprint effects simple things like map design! They still come up with the “I wAnT tO Go FaSt” argument, which is irritating to say the least because the “faster pace” that the pro-sprinters supposedly want (which is non-existent with sprint to due map stretching and base speed reduction) could be accomplished easier (i.e less balance changes) and better with a simple base speed buff.

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> > > > > > Sprint doesn’t slow the pace of the game That’s utter rubbish.
> > >
> > > Again. We have proven that Sprint heavily breaks the game.
> >
> > Absolutely, positively false. The only thing you’ve effectively accomplished here is to endlessly complain about why you personally don’t think sprint is good for the game. You’ve proven nothing about breaking the game- sprint works just fine in Reach, H4, and H5. Aside from your own griping, there’s nothing “broken,” about those games; nor would Infinite be any worse for the wear with sprint’s inclusion.
>
> And how is this any different from you harassing other people about them wanting Sprint?
>
> You seem to want Sprint so much, yet you never gave a reason, aside from being sarcastic and borderline trolling.

I’m not harassing people. I’m simply correcting ONE inaccuracy from ONE person. And you’ve argued with me over reasons that I gave for keeping sprint, so sarcasm, puns, and/or joking aside there’s no reason to revert to petty insults over this issue.

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> > > > > > > Sprint doesn’t slow the pace of the game That’s utter rubbish.
> > > >
> > > > Again. We have proven that Sprint heavily breaks the game.
> > >
> > > Absolutely, positively false. The only thing you’ve effectively accomplished here is to endlessly complain about why you personally don’t think sprint is good for the game. You’ve proven nothing about breaking the game- sprint works just fine in Reach, H4, and H5. Aside from your own griping, there’s nothing “broken,” about those games; nor would Infinite be any worse for the wear with sprint’s inclusion.
> >
> > And how is this any different from you harassing other people about them wanting Sprint?
> >
> > You seem to want Sprint so much, yet you never gave a reason, aside from being sarcastic and borderline trolling.
>
> I’m not harassing people. I’m simply correcting ONE inaccuracy from ONE person. And you’ve argued with me over reasons that I gave for keeping sprint, so sarcasm, puns, and/or joking aside there’s no reason to revert to petty insults over this issue.

Except… There’s pages upon pages of discussion to prove you wrong, on this very forum post.

You should probably look them up

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> I’m still holding to my original opinion of Sprint that I expressed yesterday: that I’d rather have it than be without it.
>
> I just mainly see Sprint as a way to get into the combat faster and to avoid some of the circumstances that can be found in the previous games such as being caught in a slightly too open but necessary to cross area where, if you’re spotted and shot at first, you’re pretty much dead unless you turn out to be the better shot which doesn’t happen as often as some people may want to believe. At least according to my experiences. An unpopular opinion, but I rather liked Halo 4. I thought the campaign was fine - not the best, but fine enough for me to replay it more than once unlike 5’s rather lackluster campaign - , and while many probably sneer at things like the loadouts and ordnance, I didn’t mind them as much as I thought they added to the random fun in certain gametypes like BTB. That said, I didn’t mind seeing them go either. The loadouts aside, I rather enjoyed the maps and the Dominion game mode was one I sunk a lot of time in, second to BTB. And, yes, I enjoyed the inclusion of Sprint as a permanent, non-armor module mechanic.
>
> Admittedly, BTB may be skewing my perspective as that has always been the game mode I enjoyed the most throughout the Halos. I enjoy the bigger maps, the more abundant amount of players, and the chaos that tends to ensue with such battles. To me, when I think of Halo, I’m thinking BTB and the madness that I enjoy in it. My preference for Sprint probably stems from preferring those bigger maps and, with vehicles either destroyed or driven off by drivers without gunners, I like Sprint as an alternative to crossing over the larger distances in order to get to where the main battle is. At times, Sprint was also a good way to better traverse a more out of the way, flanking path to get a better position on the enemy. Similar experiences of the latter in previous Halos without Sprint tended to be, at best, a chore and, at worst, a complete waste when bad luck hits and you cross the path of someone who was thinking the same but they had the better weapon/skill to beat you. So even though I do go back and still play the previous Halos, I do wish for Sprint.
>
> Once battle is joined, I forget about Sprint. I’m in the fight, I want to stay in it, and I’m once more immersed in Halo’s fun run and gun shooting and ducking fighting that I love. If I use Sprint, its to push up when an opening makes itself known or when I want to retreat and try a different path to hit the enemy from. In my eyes, I see Sprint as to better get you into the battle and given you options that are a bit more difficult and slower to do without Sprint.
>
> It goes without saying that Halo 5 has a laundry list of problems (crappy campaign, no split screen, the rather unfun Prometheans to fight, the lack of thought and effort in BTB in their push for Warzone, the REQ system badly needing some work as well, etc.), but when it comes to Sprint I think it was a good choice to add it - at least to me. The Spartan Pound and Charge, I think those can go. Thrust? That can go too. Clambering? Eeeeehhhh…maybe, if nothing else than so that climbable areas are something that map developers won’t have to worry about and the maps - and the combat on those maps - is a bit more straightforward. But Sprint? I’d rather have it than not have it. I don’t find it as “Halo-breaking” as some may like to term it.
>
> But as all things go, that’s my opinion based on my particular way of playing Halo - mainly in BTB. Although Halo 5 was a rather poor addition to the franchise, I’m one of the more optimistic ones who think that 343, having thrown in so much content into 5, is listening to those opinions and will make a better game for Infinite whether they do or don’t decide to keep or remove every little thing that fans may argue about, Sprint included.

“I just mainly see Sprint as a way to get into the combat faster and to avoid some of the circumstances that can be found in the previous games such as being caught in a slightly too open but necessary to cross area where, if you’re spotted and shot at first, you’re pretty much dead unless you turn out to be the better shot which doesn’t happen as often as some people may want to believe.”

Ok so you want sprint to compensate for your poor positioning? Got it. Not being nasty but you brought it on yourself here. If a player were to catch someone in a bad position in the open, in classic Halo they die. In modern halo they sprint/thruster/clamber away out of the players LoS (map design greatly contributes to this). This is one of the many problems of not just sprint, but the whole package required to keep sprint “balanced” and not make the game feel completely alien. I know/understand what you are saying, but you dont give any mechanical argument to keep sprint, everything you want/need/like can be accomplished with a base speed buff and proper map design- i.e It does not need the armour abilities to accomplish what you like.

I have been in this thread from almost the beginning, but I (and many others) have explained these negatives to people (who afterwards up and left the discussion, gg) in the thread. I could dig around and try to find them if you really want to understand the mechanics, because many members on here explained them so well. Just know that its not just hating on sprint because its a change to halo like most people at the birth of this thread thought (who as you may notice, most are long gone from the forums).

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> > > > > > > Sprint doesn’t slow the pace of the game That’s utter rubbish.
> > > >
> > > > Again. We have proven that Sprint heavily breaks the game.
> > >
> > > Absolutely, positively false. The only thing you’ve effectively accomplished here is to endlessly complain about why you personally don’t think sprint is good for the game. You’ve proven nothing about breaking the game- sprint works just fine in Reach, H4, and H5. Aside from your own griping, there’s nothing “broken,” about those games; nor would Infinite be any worse for the wear with sprint’s inclusion.
> >
> > And how is this any different from you harassing other people about them wanting Sprint?
> >
> > You seem to want Sprint so much, yet you never gave a reason, aside from being sarcastic and borderline trolling.
>
> I’m not harassing people. I’m simply correcting ONE inaccuracy from ONE person. And you’ve argued with me over reasons that I gave for keeping sprint, so sarcasm, puns, and/or joking aside there’s no reason to revert to petty insults over this issue.

Inaccuracy?

Okay bud, explain to me how sprint supposedly does not:

Negatively effect map design

Force balance changes and additional abilities to keep it balanced

Change base movement mechanics (base speed and by effect strafing)

Effect game play and compensate for poor positioning in context of the new map design.

Go ahead. You claim “inaccuracy” but you do not provide a counter argument based on mechanical knowledge of the game and the impacts of sprint. Prove that sprint did not force 343 to rebuild the whole game (good luck with that because they said it themselves, they had to rebuild the game around it).

Edit: Of course, I should add this is not a full list, as I am sure you have seen the rest from the people you claim are “inaccurate”.

15917

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> > > > > 2793974233125388;15882:
> > > > > > 2533274833081329;15880:
> > > > > > > 2793974233125388;15876:
> > > > > > > Sprint doesn’t slow the pace of the game That’s utter rubbish.
> > > >
> > > > Again. We have proven that Sprint heavily breaks the game.
> > >
> > > Absolutely, positively false. The only thing you’ve effectively accomplished here is to endlessly complain about why you personally don’t think sprint is good for the game. You’ve proven nothing about breaking the game- sprint works just fine in Reach, H4, and H5. Aside from your own griping, there’s nothing “broken,” about those games; nor would Infinite be any worse for the wear with sprint’s inclusion.
> >
> > And how is this any different from you harassing other people about them wanting Sprint?
> >
> > You seem to want Sprint so much, yet you never gave a reason, aside from being sarcastic and borderline trolling.
>
> I’m not harassing people. I’m simply correcting ONE inaccuracy from ONE person. And you’ve argued with me over reasons that I gave for keeping sprint, so sarcasm, puns, and/or joking aside there’s no reason to revert to petty insults over this issue.

I’m not talking about this ONE comment. I’m talking about multiple comments you’ve made over multiple threads.

Arguments generally require more than one person, aka a response from you, and this is the first and only response I’ve ever gotten from you. And guess what, you’ve STILL never answered my original question about Sprint.

<strong>“What makes Sprint this magical force that can never be removed or replaced? What makes it so important that you would straight up not buy the game if this one mechanic is missing?”</strong>
“joking aside there’s no reason to revert to petty insults over this issue.”
Sure thing Mr. “Anyone arguing against sprint is arguing for Halo’s demise.” You’re gonna have to be the change you want to see.

15918

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> > > > > > 2793974233125388;15876:
> > > > > > Sprint doesn’t slow the pace of the game That’s utter rubbish.
>
> - 1) Time to re-enter the fight. There’s a careful balance, especially with objective games, where killing a member of the other team doesn’t just give you a point or a new vid to plaster on your youtube. It’s about freeing up the battlefield. Kill this guy and he has to respawn, putting his team at a disadvantage while you play the objective or mop up his team. By giving players an automatic button that enables faster movement you reduce the time it takes that player to re-enter the fight. This can cause chaos and reduce the skill gap. Rather than players taking control and making pushes when they see a good opportunity, it’s likely that the team will respawn and be back on you before you’ve reloaded. The only way to mitigate against that is through map design. This takes us in to number 2.Spawn points are the real issue. I played CTF midship on H2C the other night and our team got spawn camped like crazy. Sprint wasn’t even involved and yet the map design didn’t magically save any of us from spawning facing the other direction and getting camped out like crazy. Sprint does not impact the time to reenter the fight as long as there’s enough time and space to spawn and react to the opposition. - 2a) Map design.Disagree completely. Those of you pushing to up one BMS in leu of sprint should know better than to push this argument. If the overall speed is the same regardless then sprint wouldn’t impact map design nearly as much as you’re suggesting (if at all). - 2b) Map control.There’s a delicate line between map control and spawn trapping. Either way from what I’ve seen map control can be attained with or without sprint by holding the high ground and using team shot effectively. The best example I can give is from playing mid ship on MCC then playing the remake on H5. No matter what this map is controlled in quite the same fashion, whether it be played on H2 (no sprint), H3 (no sprint), or H5 (with sprint). - 3a) Combat readiness.Sprint is completely equal in H4 and H5. You’re no more combat ready then your opposition when you both choose to use sprint. The difference is that sprint can help you reach your destination faster, but there’s clearly a risk/reward aspect involved with lowering one’s weapon to accomplish this feat. - 3b) Combat distances. Because of those increased map and corridor sizes, instead of fighting a guy at close to mid range with ARs and BRs, you fighting at mid to long ranges. This throws off the balance and roles for the weapons. But since all that has gone right out of the window, the way individual combat unfolds.Mid to long range weapons have been favored since Halo CE, with its OP pistol and (potentially) one shot kill sniper rifle. If anything H5 took its best shot at making AR’s more relevant, and sprint just helps accomplish this objective by (occasionally) being able to close distances faster. - 4) Weapon roles. So along with increased grenade radius because of the increased movement options, you also have shotguns, SMGs and ARs that can zoom and since you are most likely fighting one enemy who is sprinting all over the place the weapon damage has to be increased in order to make sure getting a kill is possible at all.Okay, sure- more skill is required to headshot faster moving opponents- but how is this any different then the notion of increasing one BMS?? The pace of Halo was too slow in H3 so Halo is (most likely) never, ever going back to that slower speed. Therefore how do you expect to slow down the gameplay enough to accomplish this desire of yours (to be able to slow down players enough that you can more accurately hit them with SMGs and AR’s)? - 5) and lastly. Complexity vs depth.I agree with your train of thought but the complexity that advanced movement provides is indeed depth to those who master and/or appreciate what these newer age mechanics bring to the table. No longer will crouch jumping and/or strafing be enough (though those elements are still important, particularly in mid to long range 1v1’s), but you now have to be aware of many more movement techniques potentially coming your way during a firefight. This leads to more unpredictability which is good for replayability in FPS shooters. Being able to predict exactly how long it takes for your opponents to spawn and traverse across the map becomes repetitive and boring. - Sure, some players might find Halo 4 and 5 fun, but also look at the fact that Bungie looked at putting sprint in Halo 2, but it didn’t work, and the mechanic still didn’t get it Halo 3. It wasn’t until Reach that Bungie finally put Sprint in Halo, but only in a very limited form. You have to ask yourself, “If they wanted sprint in Halo since Halo 2, why did it take so long, and why did it only really half get in there under Bungie’s watch?”. Maybe because Bungie realised early on that sprint broke the very core design that had set out for Halo.I don’t agree with that at all. Bungie did create and implement sprint in Halo. They created sprint as early as their development cycle for Halo 2 (which admittedly didn’t make it into the final game for reasons we’ll never know)… Two AAA games later Bungie implemented sprint with their final installment to the Halo franchise; clearly demonstrating that they did believe that sprint would enhance and improve Halo’s gameplay. Sprint has been in every single AAA Halo title since then and continues to enhance and improve Halo’s gameplay to this day.

15919

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> > 2547348539238747;15906:
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> > > > 2533275031935123;15884:
> > > > > 2793974233125388;15882:
> > > > > > 2533274833081329;15880:
> > > > > > > 2793974233125388;15876:
> > > > > > > Sprint doesn’t slow the pace of the game That’s utter rubbish.
> >
> > - 1) Time to re-enter the fight. There’s a careful balance, especially with objective games, where killing a member of the other team doesn’t just give you a point or a new vid to plaster on your youtube. It’s about freeing up the battlefield. Kill this guy and he has to respawn, putting his team at a disadvantage while you play the objective or mop up his team. By giving players an automatic button that enables faster movement you reduce the time it takes that player to re-enter the fight. This can cause chaos and reduce the skill gap. Rather than players taking control and making pushes when they see a good opportunity, it’s likely that the team will respawn and be back on you before you’ve reloaded. The only way to mitigate against that is through map design. This takes us in to number 2.Spawn points are the real issue. I played CTF midship on H2C the other night and our team got spawn camped like crazy. Sprint wasn’t even involved and yet the map design didn’t magically save any of us from spawning facing the other direction and getting camped out like crazy. Sprint does not impact the time to reenter the fight as long as there’s enough time and space to spawn and react to the opposition. - 2a) Map design.Disagree completely. Those of you pushing to up one BMS in leu of sprint should know better than to push this argument. If the overall speed is the same regardless then sprint wouldn’t impact map design nearly as much as you’re suggesting (if at all). - 2b) Map control.There’s a delicate line between map control and spawn trapping. Either way from what I’ve seen map control can be attained with or without sprint by holding the high ground and using team shot effectively. The best example I can give is from playing mid ship on MCC then playing the remake on H5. No matter what this map is controlled in quite the same fashion, whether it be played on H2 (no sprint), H3 (no sprint), or H5 (with sprint). - 3a) Combat readiness.Sprint is completely equal in H4 and H5. You’re no more combat ready then your opposition when you both choose to use sprint. The difference is that sprint can help you reach your destination faster, but there’s clearly a risk/reward aspect involved with lowering one’s weapon to accomplish this feat. - 3b) Combat distances. Because of those increased map and corridor sizes, instead of fighting a guy at close to mid range with ARs and BRs, you fighting at mid to long ranges. This throws off the balance and roles for the weapons. But since all that has gone right out of the window, the way individual combat unfolds.Mid to long range weapons have been favored since Halo CE, with its OP pistol and (potentially) one shot kill sniper rifle. If anything H5 took its best shot at making AR’s more relevant, and sprint just helps accomplish this objective by (occasionally) being able to close distances faster. - 4) Weapon roles. So along with increased grenade radius because of the increased movement options, you also have shotguns, SMGs and ARs that can zoom and since you are most likely fighting one enemy who is sprinting all over the place the weapon damage has to be increased in order to make sure getting a kill is possible at all.Okay, sure- more skill is required to headshot faster moving opponents- but how is this any different then the notion of increasing one BMS?? The pace of Halo was too slow in H3 so Halo is (most likely) never, ever going back to that slower speed. Therefore how do you expect to slow down the gameplay enough to accomplish this desire of yours (to be able to slow down players enough that you can more accurately hit them with SMGs and AR’s)? - 5) and lastly. Complexity vs depth.I agree with your train of thought but the complexity that advanced movement provides is indeed depth to those who master and/or appreciate what these newer age mechanics bring to the table. No longer will crouch jumping and/or strafing be enough (though those elements are still important, particularly in mid to long range 1v1’s), but you now have to be aware of many more movement techniques potentially coming your way during a firefight. This leads to more unpredictability which is good for replayability in FPS shooters. Being able to predict exactly how long it takes for your opponents to spawn and traverse across the map becomes repetitive and boring. - Sure, some players might find Halo 4 and 5 fun, but also look at the fact that Bungie looked at putting sprint in Halo 2, but it didn’t work, and the mechanic still didn’t get it Halo 3. It wasn’t until Reach that Bungie finally put Sprint in Halo, but only in a very limited form. You have to ask yourself, “If they wanted sprint in Halo since Halo 2, why did it take so long, and why did it only really half get in there under Bungie’s watch?”. Maybe because Bungie realised early on that sprint broke the very core design that had set out for Halo.I don’t agree with that at all. Bungie did create and implement sprint in Halo. They created sprint as early as their development cycle for Halo 2 (which admittedly didn’t make it into the final game for reasons we’ll never know)… Two AAA games later Bungie implemented sprint with their final installment to the Halo franchise; clearly demonstrating that they did believe that sprint would enhance and improve Halo’s gameplay. Sprint has been in every single AAA Halo title since then and continues to enhance and improve Halo’s gameplay to this day.

You are aware that Bungie openly referred to Reach as both an experiment and the game for them to implement ideas they never got the chance to implement in games prior to it, correct?

I wouldn’t say that them putting Sprint into Reach is any sort of golden stamp for the system.

15920

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> > > > > > > > Sprint doesn’t slow the pace of the game That’s utter rubbish.
>
> You are aware that Bungie openly referred to Reach as both an experiment and the game for them to implement ideas they never got the chance to implement in games prior to it, correct?
>
> I wouldn’t say that them putting Sprint into Reach is any sort of golden stamp for the system.

Yep, it was just a spinoff finale where they implemented cut ideas and/or ideas that wouldn’t work in mainstream Halo. They did not create Reach with the intent of building another trilogy on top of it. Halo 3 was prime for that, not Reach (in terms of game play mechanics).

15921

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> > > > > > Just a quick word regarding Sprint potentially increasing the pace of gameplay:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > That’s bunk. The maps designed in Halo 5 gave been elongated to account for Sprint. All Sprint does in that case, is kill your ability to fight back against someone who is not sprinting. As such, an increase in BMS would accomplish what Sprint does, but also enables you to fight back on Halo 5 maps.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Regarding combat options,
> > > > > > You’re better off running than you are sprinting. Sprinting doesn’t enable you to fight back, so you have to stop sprinting in order to play. Therefore, sprinting increasing combat options is also absolute bunk.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There are many, many pages of back and forth where this has been proven in greater detail. I suggest anyone curious check those out.
> > > > >
> > > > > Wrong
> > > >
> > > > Why, what an intelligent and comprehensive response you have written! I’m so glad you could further our discussion by thoroughly responding to Delta5931’s point with evidence and your own analysis! Great work, chum!
> > >
> > > I’m hoping to explain it to him through Xbox party “chum”
> >
> > Yes, because taking a discussion about sprint off of the sprint discussion threat makes a lot of sense!
>
> 1. I’m expressing an opinion on the thread I want to be challenged. But not harassed
> 2. I’m making perfect sense by discussing it with halo players who may have a different take

“Harassed”. I can understand why you use that word. You saw the tsunami wave of guys come at you, I had to go through it too.

My advice? If these guys are starting to bother you, just leave. There’s no point. Your experience and well-being on these forums is far more important than upholding a big internet fight. Go outside, drink a soda (anything healthier, preferably, but still), go see a friend, maybe even just play some games. Just remember you are in no way obligated to keep replying, and if you’re bothered, we all encourage you (unless some of us are so selfish that we wanna see you just endlessly toll here) you to leave this thread and relax.

15922

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> > > > > 2535454318282171;15873:
> > > > > > 2793974233125388;15872:
> > > > > > > 2533275031935123;15861:
> > > > > > > Just a quick word regarding Sprint potentially increasing the pace of gameplay:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > That’s bunk. The maps designed in Halo 5 gave been elongated to account for Sprint. All Sprint does in that case, is kill your ability to fight back against someone who is not sprinting. As such, an increase in BMS would accomplish what Sprint does, but also enables you to fight back on Halo 5 maps.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Regarding combat options,
> > > > > > > You’re better off running than you are sprinting. Sprinting doesn’t enable you to fight back, so you have to stop sprinting in order to play. Therefore, sprinting increasing combat options is also absolute bunk.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > There are many, many pages of back and forth where this has been proven in greater detail. I suggest anyone curious check those out.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Wrong
> > > > >
> > > > > Why, what an intelligent and comprehensive response you have written! I’m so glad you could further our discussion by thoroughly responding to Delta5931’s point with evidence and your own analysis! Great work, chum!
> > > >
> > > > I’m hoping to explain it to him through Xbox party “chum”
> > >
> > > Yes, because taking a discussion about sprint off of the sprint discussion threat makes a lot of sense!
> >
> > 1. I’m expressing an opinion on the thread I want to be challenged. But not harassed
> > 2. I’m making perfect sense by discussing it with halo players who may have a different take
>
> “Harassed”. I can understand why you use that word. You saw the tsunami wave of guys come at you, I had to go through it too.
>
> My advice? If these guys are starting to bother you, just leave. There’s no point. Your experience and well-being on these forums is far more important than upholding a big internet fight. Go outside, drink a soda (anything healthier, preferably, but still), go see a friend, maybe even just play some games. Just remember you are in no way obligated to keep replying, and if you’re bothered, we all encourage you (unless some of us are so selfish that we wanna see you just endlessly troll here) you to leave this thread and relax.

Thank you, besides I’m only saying I like sprint and how it increases movement but not as drastically as spartan abilities in halo 5 I made my point with a comparison I wouldn’t mind a game without sprint I’m just considering.

15923

> 2535444702990491;15918:
> - 2a) Map design.Disagree completely. Those of you pushing to up one BMS in leu of sprint should know better than to push this argument. If the overall speed is the same regardless then sprint wouldn’t impact map design nearly as much as you’re suggesting (if at all).

No, you see, the overall time it takes to travel around the map is about the same due to the fact that the maps themselves are larger in size. This is the effect that sprint has had on map design: maps are larger than they used to be. If we maintain the Halo 5 BMS, but have smaller maps than we have in Halo 5, then the effect will be that the game flows as fast (if not faster, since players can also participate in combat while traversing the map).

> 2535444702990491;15918:
> The pace of Halo was too slow in H3 so Halo is (most likely) never, ever going back to that slower speed.

By “pace”, do you mean the movement speed of players, or the rate at which the game progresses (say, how often players get into encounters)? Because there’s potential for confusion since most opponents of sprint refer to pace in the latter sense, and in that sense Halo 3 has not been demonstrated to be slower than Halo 5. In fact, there’s also some evidence that Halo 5 is not faster than Halo 3 in this sense [1, 2].

> 2535444702990491;15918:
> I agree with your train of thought but the complexity that advanced movement provides is indeed depth to those who master and/or appreciate what these newer age mechanics bring to the table. No longer will crouch jumping and/or strafing be enough (though those elements are still important, particularly in mid to long range 1v1’s), but you now have to be aware of many more movement techniques potentially coming your way during a firefight. This leads to more unpredictability which is good for replayability in FPS shooters.

Taking into account all the negative effects of Spartan Abilities, there is a strong argument to be made that they do not provide a sufficient amount of depth to justify the complexity they add (see my comment here). With that said, Spartan Abilities in general are not the topic of this thread. When it comes to sprint in particular, it adds hardly anything to the depth, and removes some. It’s at best completely inconsequential to depth, and at worst detrimental.

> 2535444702990491;15918:
> Being able to predict exactly how long it takes for your opponents to spawn and traverse across the map becomes repetitive and boring.

This is something that’s not at all affected by sprint since the amount of time it takes for a player to traverse across the map can be arbitrarily long, regardless of player speed. It’s only bounded from below. A player, if they so choose to, can make it arbitrarily difficult to estimate when they will arrive regardless of whether there is sprint or not.

15924

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> > > I dont like sprint. its Influence on map design (for example unnesesary stretching creating open long fields) and similiar to boosters it is a “ceap way to save somone who acctualy deserved to get killed”. Of course it is fair in a sense that evryone now has it but sprint and armorabilities in generall have too much what i would say negative influence on evrything around it . In older Halos higher Mobility was rather an Reward For good teamwork or individuall skill becuase you had to controll certain passages that where quicker or mancannons,teleports etc… maybe getting a certain vehicel into your controll or simply stealing enemies vehicels so a larger share of your own team can be transportet. The Design of Maps/Modes was the limiter, the Map designer decided how much mobility he wants to have on his map , wich sections to slow down wich to speed up . The entire map this way was balanced in itself. Sprint on the other hand limits modes and mapdesigners they have to factor in these , maybe taking some shortcoomings as cause for that. I never felt like the older halos lacked speed or something ( not in the fighting sense by nature halo fights due to the arena nature , ideas and simple ID of the franchise are slower in comparasion) the only areas wich were super slow were designed to be used with vehicels etc and usually would even take with sprint a long time to traverse so somone ones “tactical stupidity” in in my opinion no excuse to include sprint, espacialy when said section probably would be elongatet even more because the map designer dosent want somone running around without a vehicel in said section.
> > >
> > > And Guys letz be honest , Halo right now isnt doing as great as it was and it needs to be “different” or “special” to put simply “iconic” to its roots and game so people regognize it or atleast that it stands out in the mass market of sci fi Shooters , otherwise when time will pass by and the old fans arent really there anymore it will be forgotten with the rest, Though i am happy to see 343 understands how important the ID of Halo ist hence the return of the Artstyle in Infinite (hopefully gameplay too)
> >
> > 1. How do you determine who “deserves to get killed”? I can make the argument that the attacker didn’t deserve the kill with the same logic of bad positioning if sprint of all things saved the other player.
> >
> > 2. They never felt slow to you, but many think they did. Halo 3’s movement in particular feels so sluggish some compare it to tortoise movement or wading. But that’s just the vocal guys, who as a general rule are a minority. We don’t have any evidence that could point to the general opinion of speed among the silent majority.
> >
> > 3. The “map designer designs the flow of the game” logic itself is why classic feels limiting. It flows great, for sure. But the maps are designed in a way where there’s only one or two plays that are viable per section (don’t forget the atrocious nade spam on maps like Guardian and Midship). Sprint and other abilities help you dodge attacks so there isn’t always a strict “play-counterplay” pattern to everything. For example, on maps like Truth, you can’t just spam nades on the sides of the map, because that can be negated with a Thrust, making the plays more situational and less “textbook”, if you understand me.
> >
> > 4. There is no evidence that can pin the decline of Halo strictly on sprint and modern movement.
>
> 1. We’re saying that a hypothetically well positioned attacker may not always get the kill of a hypothetically poorly positioned defender due to thrust and sprint allowing for a quick dodge behind cover. You pretty much have to be in the middle of nowhere on a map to be in remote danger of being killed. Also, please note how every singe map in the new Halo rotation has at least 3, often wide open avenues of attack except for Pegasus Security, which was fixed in Pegasus II. This is because of spartan abilities, yet that still does not solve the duck behind cover issue that halts gameplay. Thrust, sprint, nade, wait is now the meta. A poorly positioned attacker will likely also not be punished nearly as severely, due to the fact that he can also do the same should the defender get a few shots in. Point is: it’s nearly impossible to position yourself to surely kill someone who is not well positioned on defense.
> 2. Okay this is a feeling and I’m sure people felt that way. Even I felt that way. but sprint is an overreaction to this. Increasing BMS and adding more man cannons? Yeah. Hell yeah. Sprint and spartan abilities was… not the way.
> 3. The dodging of attacks and running away from them is precisely why the mechanic is broken. Maps do not flow great; they all suffer from artificial enlargement and a chronic lack of good cover to compensate for sprint and thrust. The strict play and counterplay is quintessential HALO. That’s what the campaigns were, that’s what the multiplayer was. Halo and CoD are on opposite sides of the spectrum, with CoD being highly situational and incredibly fast paced, and Halo being slower paced and very strategic. Avoiding a well placed grenade with a thrust is perhaps the single most infuriating mechanic in Halo and makes me want to smash my controller every time I see it done, even by my teammates. A well thrown grenade is meant to absolutely screw you over by killing you or by putting you in a situation where you will likely die, not allow you to just thrust out of the way like it’s nothing. Textbook is Halo. Situational is CoD.
> 4. Actually, there kind of is. More modern gameplay in the mainstream titles and the resulting decline of Halo came with Halo 4; Halo 4 gave us “modern” features like kill streaks (ordinances), load outs (chose a grenade type), sprint, and abilities like promethean vision. Many who left the game at that time had cited these additions as the reason they did so, and by the time Halo 5 rolled around, only the people who were okay with these additions and the people who will never leave halo no matter what remained. The reason people left Halo 4 was because of the changes, and the changes were “modern movement and game mechanics.” Therefore, modern movement DID kill Halo; it may be too late to save it now. People always argued about which game would be the Halo killer. Let’s pretend this is Clue: I’d like to guess it was 343i, in Halo 4, with the CoD mechanics.

MAN thanks for cover XD i am not a great discusion guy but you almost speak my mind :smiley:

15925

> 2693447455717420;15905:
> I just mainly see Sprint as a way to get into the combat faster and to avoid some of the circumstances that can be found in the previous games such as being caught in a slightly too open but necessary to cross area where, if you’re spotted and shot at first, you’re pretty much dead unless you turn out to be the better shot At least according to my experiences.
>
> Admittedly, BTB may be skewing my perspective as that has always been the game mode I enjoyed the most throughout the Halos. My preference for Sprint probably stems from preferring those bigger maps and, with vehicles either destroyed or driven off by drivers without gunners, I like Sprint as an alternative to crossing over the larger distances in order to get to where the main battle is. At times, Sprint was also a good way to better traverse a more out of the way, flanking path to get a better position on the enemy.
>
> Similar experiences of the latter in previous Halos without Sprint tended to be, at best, a chore and, at worst, a complete waste when bad luck hits and you cross the path of someone who was thinking the same but they had the better weapon/skill to beat you. I see Sprint as to better get you into the battle and given you options that are a bit more difficult and slower to do without Sprint.

Seems like the first part of what I quoted is you making an excuse for bad map positioning like someone else mentioned. You also pointed out why sprint makes the game slower. Basically, “if I have sprint I can escape my bad position and not die.” In other words, you either escape a death that should’ve happened or you make that person chase you like a cat and mouse scenario extending the fight until one of you kills the other one.

BTB is also my favorite playlist since H2, but I never saw the need for sprint while playing it. One example is in Reach where I always chose the jetpack or armor lock because the jetpack provided better counters for map positioning and they were both better against vehicles. You would think I would’ve went with sprint on bigger maps, but I managed just fine without it. Generally, the maps in past BTB’s were bigger, but they were either small enough to get by with just the BMS or they had things to compensate like teleporters and vehicles. Either way, I didn’t feel out of the action for very long while moving around the map at one speed.

You see going to out of the way places as a chore, but I saw it as an opportunity to get a better, sneakier position. The hike I took to get there felt more rewarding when I got those kills, but it seems to me like you want a reward without any kind of work. Obviously, it’s not always going to work out when you get there, but that’s Halo and risk/reward. It’s not the fault of a game mechanic being implemented or not for your death when you decided to hike to an out of the way spot and you felt bad when it didn’t work out. For your last point about it being more difficult to do things without sprint; so without it you actually have to think of a good strategy to try and do something instead of a more simplistic option of just running around the map? Wow, sign me up.