The sprint discussion thread

> 2535408720103530;15223:
> second of all why didn’t you complain when being added sprint to halo reach explain that to me

They did. Ever since Halo Reach’s beta if you want to go that far. 343i eventually gave NSNB Reach which fixed most of the problems people had and gave an actual no Sprint section of the game.

> 2535408720103530;15225:
> Question who do you blame bungie or 343 as bungie started this while 343 continued it also if some of you are going to complain about halo taking aspects from other games then I guess walking should be removed and the guns oh and we can’t forget about the health system and on that note let’s just get 343 to remove multiplayer all together and we can’t forget about the controls can we

Easy. Both.Bungie is no stranger to ignoring the wants of a section of the community. 343i fixed that. People complained up and down the street about Bungie’s handling of Reach as they were heading for their Destiny, but then 343i turned it around with NSNB and Armor Ability patches. They already had their great first step.

But then they fumbled and fumbled hard with Halo 4. It had redeemable values, but it’s sandwiched between the really poor mechanics and the even worse handling of it. Instead of improving on what they did with NSNB, they kept going with what Bungie did with Reach, which was the very thing they were praised for not doing.

The problem isn’t “Halo taking aspects from other games.” The problem is them taking aspects from other games in a blatant attempt to capture a different crowd, or not considering what the aspect is for in the first place.

You can get off that slippery slope anytime now.

> 2533274833081329;15226:
> > 2535408720103530;15223:
> > second of all why didn’t you complain when being added sprint to halo reach explain that to me
>
> They did. Ever since Halo Reach’s beta if you want to go that far. 343i eventually gave NSNB Reach which fixed most of the problems people had and gave an actual no Sprint section of the game.
>
>
>
>
> > 2535408720103530;15225:
> > Question who do you blame bungie or 343 as bungie started this while 343 continued it also if some of you are going to complain about halo taking aspects from other games then I guess walking should be removed and the guns oh and we can’t forget about the health system and on that note let’s just get 343 to remove multiplayer all together and we can’t forget about the controls can we
>
> Easy. Both.Bungie is no stranger to ignoring the wants of a section of the community. 343i fixed that. People complained up and down the street about Bungie’s handling of Reach as they were heading for their Destiny, but then 343i turned it around with NSNB and Armor Ability patches. They already had their great first step.
>
> But then they fumbled and fumbled hard with Halo 4. It had redeemable values, but it’s sandwiched between the really poor mechanics and the even worse handling of it. Instead of improving on what they did with NSNB, they kept going with what Bungie did with Reach, which was the very thing they were praised for not doing.
>
> The problem isn’t “Halo taking aspects from other games.” The problem is them taking aspects from other games in a blatant attempt to capture a different crowd, or not considering what the aspect is for in the first place.
>
> You can get off that slippery slope anytime now.

Thank you for explaining the problem sprint really might not be a problem if we can have both styles of game play

> 2533274833081329;15226:
> > 2535408720103530;15223:
> > second of all why didn’t you complain when being added sprint to halo reach explain that to me
>
> They did. Ever since Halo Reach’s beta if you want to go that far. 343i eventually gave NSNB Reach which fixed most of the problems people had and gave an actual no Sprint section of the game.
>
>
>
>
> > 2535408720103530;15225:
> > Question who do you blame bungie or 343 as bungie started this while 343 continued it also if some of you are going to complain about halo taking aspects from other games then I guess walking should be removed and the guns oh and we can’t forget about the health system and on that note let’s just get 343 to remove multiplayer all together and we can’t forget about the controls can we
>
> Easy. Both.Bungie is no stranger to ignoring the wants of a section of the community. 343i fixed that. People complained up and down the street about Bungie’s handling of Reach as they were heading for their Destiny, but then 343i turned it around with NSNB and Armor Ability patches. They already had their great first step.
>
> But then they fumbled and fumbled hard with Halo 4. It had redeemable values, but it’s sandwiched between the really poor mechanics and the even worse handling of it. Instead of improving on what they did with NSNB, they kept going with what Bungie did with Reach, which was the very thing they were praised for not doing.
>
> The problem isn’t “Halo taking aspects from other games.” The problem is them taking aspects from other games in a blatant attempt to capture a different crowd, or not considering what the aspect is for in the first place.
>
> You can get off that slippery slope anytime now.

Something I’d like to add to this. Anyone used to watch the ViDocs on Xbox 360? There were a few about the Halo series and I used to watch a lot of them. Unfortunately, I have no idea if there is even a way to access them now. Anyway, the reason I ask is that I recall watching a ViDoc about Halo: Reach, in which Bungie basically stated that they decided to ‘experiment’ with Reach. They decided to take some of their old ideas… some of which weren’t all that popular with fans… and try to put them into a game with improvements or tweaks to make them work better. Just to see how it would’ve turned out if they’d stuck with those ideas, or in sprint’s case, utilized it. Thus the reason health packs returned, sprint (such as it was) was included and the deployable gear returned as armor abilities.

Looking at it from that perspective, it makes sense (to me at least) why Reach is what it is. But it also makes sense that some of the series’ biggest fans saw it as a big middle finger send off of the series by Bungie. And I can’t honestly say that I blame them, because even from Bungies perspective of ‘We wanted to see how it would’ve worked out if they’d stuck to a few less popular ideas…’ how could they have not anticipated that there’d be a lot of people who didn’t like it and it would come across to those people as Bungie didn’t care anyway since they were done with Halo.

The way I see it is 343 used Reach as an integral source of game data… as opposed to Bungies concept of “what if we did go with this”. 343 took what Reach offered and used that as their continuation point when (IMO) they’d have been better off to use Halo 3 as a baseline and improve from that point. At least, that’s my take on it.

> 2535416010022389;15206:
> The game developers.
> I’d love a halo game without sprint but they want to make it more like Call of Duty because that sells

In a GDC video, a 343 developer admitted that sprint was the most contentious debate which says to me not everyone agreed that it should be in the game and it was most likely an executive decision to implement it. That tells me not all hope is lost for future Halo games as long as it’s not a unanimous decision about it.

> 2535408720103530;15227:
> Thank you for explaining the problem sprint really might not be a problem if we can have both styles of game play

But it is a problem. Catering to both communities just fractures the playerbase and it creates issues for 343 because they have to basically create two different games since not having sprint would affect the maps and kill times. Yeah, they could just make one or two no sprint playlists, but to be honest, I would rather them just make one game with whatever they’re gonna do instead treating the no sprint people like a charity case and throwing them a bone like that’s supposed to make things right.

Removing sprint could be exceptional! Halo 1, 2, and 3 were all very enjoyable games. You fought tactfully and resourcefully within the multiplayer experience. The campaign felt extraordinarily long for the first few plays. Overall in my opinion, it gives the story a whole different feel. You aren’t just rushing through. In multiplayer, you didn’t have the ability to “run” out and shoot. You had to check around corners, and start crouching or jumping whilst be shot at if you came into contact with the enemy. You go through with either 3 thoughts: 1) I’m loving this long campaign, when in reality, the layout is short. 2) I hate this, it takes long. 3) This is boring. Really brings out the people who truly enjoy Halo and engage in the activities brought forth.

I’m haven’t gone and read ALL of the lore that the Halo series has to offer, but the video experience is (get ready for some heavy bias) simply LOVELY! I don’t really know if sprint isn’t in the lore or anything, and it just ruins it. Maybe someone could give me an answer.

I got really submerged in Halo’s virtual story (the video games) in the first trilogy. Heck, I used to play Halo 2 every night when I got home. It didn’t matter how many times I played it, there was always something new, interesting, or beautiful about it to me.

Going slightly off topic to follow-up ^^: I respect 343 carrying on the torch! There are some mess-ups here and there, but at the end of the game, match, or day, it was a enjoyable experience, with or without sprint.

Personally I don’t have a preference as I like both styles ether way I will buy the next halo game if it has sprint or not

> 2533274801176260;15224:
> > 2535408720103530;15223:
> > why didn’t you complain when being added sprint to halo reach explain that to me
>
> They did. The community was in uproar.
> The difference was that people expected for sprint to be removed in Halo 4, since that game is explicitly named to follow Halo 3, a game that didn’t have sprint and since 343 claimed during development that the gameplay would go “back to the roots” by being based on Halo CE, something that was a blatant lie as we later found out.
> People just assumed that sprint would be a one-off mechanic, that was tried out in Reach and then quickly abandoned in the franchise. Especially after the first thing 343 did when they got their hands on Halo was to create ZBNS Reach.
> In other words: We were misled by 343, which by now has become an unfortunate tradition…

Yes exactly. Reach was a spinoff, “last hurrah” for bungie where they threw in cut and crazy ideas into the game, with NO INTENT to build on that gameplay for a sequel, it was just for fun. They made this clear with their Vidocs.

343 on the other hand stuck with these crazy ideas knowing full well the halo community hates them. 343 were only catering to the generic fps players who play the game for 2 weeks then dump it. In every franchise, it is known as a stupid move to continue mechanics from a spin-off into sequels…thats the whole point of a spinoff, their direction is not meant as a foundation to the next game.

I think Bungie was under contract which said they had to make one more Halo game so I don’t think it would come as a surprise that they would use it as their own testing lab for Destiny. I think it seems reasonable to me for them to do that if they were burnt out on Halo while getting a renewed excitement for a new game at the same time.

Keeping armor abilities including sprint was an easy way for 343 to make Halo look updated and fresh in the current market and a way to save time by not having to come up with everything from scratch since we know that they were strapped for time and didn’t have a big team at the time. Instead of taking the safe route and going back to traditional Halo gameplay mechanics, they wanted to make a name for themselves and bet it all on modern Halo. We all know how that turned out. I don’t really blame 343 completely for H4 given their situation, but H5 and onward gets full blame for implementing or continuing to try failing mechanics. The majority of my comments are speculation of course.

> 2533274875084332;15232:
> Yes exactly. Reach was a spinoff, “last hurrah” for bungie where they threw in cut and crazy ideas into the game, with NO INTENT to build on that gameplay for a sequel, it was just for fun. They made this clear with their Vidocs.

On the contrary, the impression I always got was that Reach was the Halo they had always wanted to make. That is, if Halo CE had had the same organization and manpower as Reach behind it, it would’ve been a lot more like Reach. Had Bungie not left Halo, would Halo 4 have been more like Reach or Halo 3 in their hands? We probably wouldn’t have gotten the Halo 4 we got, but I think the other extreme of them abandoning all concepts from Reach is equally unreasonable. This is of course an entirely hypotethical question the answer of which tells more about the person answering it than it tells about Bungie.

> 2533274875084332;15232:
> In every franchise, it is known as a stupid move to continue mechanics from a spin-off into sequels…thats the whole point of a spinoff, their direction is not meant as a foundation to the next game.

Is it? Of course, if the spin-off is in a completely different genre, or drastically differs from the original. But if the gameplay of the spin-off can be seen as direct evolution of the gameplay (which I think is the case for Reach, it’s not different enough from Halo 3 to be seen as a completely different thing), and if it’s the way majority of players will experience the gameplay for the next two years, it might just be completely viable to continue with that gameplay when moving back to the main story. I don’t think you can unamibguously call it a stupid move. It’s highly dependent on the specific circumstances of how different the spin-off actually is from the original.

Anecdotally, in case of Halo 4 taking the core mechanics of Reach, I don’t think it was a bad move because Reach was a spin-off. I think it was a bad move because the gameplay of Reach was bad. I didn’t buy Reach expecting to get a new take on FPS Halo gameplay (and I didn’t get one either), I bought it to get new stories and maps with the gameplay I’ve got to know (albeit with some variations, which I didn’t happen to like), and that’s exactly what I received. This is in contrast to ODST, which I bought expecting completely different gameplay, and received exactly that.

I never expected any Halo game to continue with the gameplay style of ODST, unless it was ODST 2. But to me it was never an expectation that whatever came after Reach wouldn’t use any of the new mechanics. Sure, I was hoping it wouldn’t, but I never perceived Reach as a spin-off gameplay-wise.

So, I don’t subscribe to the idea that continuing with mechanics from spin-offs is always stupid, and I think for Halo 4 to take mechanics from Reach was stupid for reasons unrelated to Reach being a spin-off.

> 2533274825830455;15234:
> > 2533274875084332;15232:
> > Yes exactly. Reach was a spinoff, “last hurrah” for bungie where they threw in cut and crazy ideas into the game, with NO INTENT to build on that gameplay for a sequel, it was just for fun. They made this clear with their Vidocs.
>
> On the contrary, the impression I always got was that Reach was the Halo they had always wanted to make. That is, if Halo CE had had the same organization and manpower as Reach behind it, it would’ve been a lot more like Reach. Had Bungie not left Halo, would Halo 4 have been more like Reach or Halo 3 in their hands? We probably wouldn’t have gotten the Halo 4 we got, but I think the other extreme of them abandoning all concepts from Reach is equally unreasonable. This is of course an entirely hypotethical question the answer of which tells more about the person answering it than it tells about Bungie.
>
>
>
>
> > 2533274875084332;15232:
> > In every franchise, it is known as a stupid move to continue mechanics from a spin-off into sequels…thats the whole point of a spinoff, their direction is not meant as a foundation to the next game.
>
> Is it? Of course, if the spin-off is in a completely different genre, or drastically differs from the original. But if the gameplay of the spin-off can be seen as direct evolution of the gameplay (which I think is the case for Reach, it’s not different enough from Halo 3 to be seen as a completely different thing), and if it’s the way majority of players will experience the gameplay for the next two years, it might just be completely viable to continue with that gameplay when moving back to the main story. I don’t think you can unamibguously call it a stupid move. It’s highly dependent on the specific circumstances of how different the spin-off actually is from the original.
>
> Anecdotally, in case of Halo 4 taking the core mechanics of Reach, I don’t think it was a bad move because Reach was a spin-off. I think it was a bad move because the gameplay of Reach was bad. I didn’t buy Reach expecting to get a new take on FPS Halo gameplay (and I didn’t get one either), I bought it to get new stories and maps with the gameplay I’ve got to know (albeit with some variations, which I didn’t happen to like), and that’s exactly what I received. This is in contrast to ODST, which I bought expecting completely different gameplay, and received exactly that.
>
> I never expected any Halo game to continue with the gameplay style of ODST, unless it was ODST 2. But to me it was never an expectation that whatever came after Reach wouldn’t use any of the new mechanics. Sure, I was hoping it wouldn’t, but I never perceived Reach as a spin-off gameplay-wise.
>
> So, I don’t subscribe to the idea that continuing with mechanics from spin-offs is always stupid, and I think for Halo 4 to take mechanics from Reach was stupid for reasons unrelated to Reach being a spin-off.

On the first point they made it plenty clear it was “a last hurrah of cut ideas” -Paraphrased, but that was the intent. They never marketed it as an evolution of halo. They said it very clearly, that they used ideas that “would not work in the mainline trilogy games” so obviously, they implemented them only for the established spinoff intent.

On the second point, I did not mean the game mechanics were bad purely due to them being based off a spinoff, I am saying that it is yet another key point that they adopted the mechanics from a controversial spinoff title rather than continuing what was already loved (Halo 3). I have commented a fair few times on this thread before stating my views on how much I hate those said mechanics.

Sprint as much as I hate it has a place in halo. Just limit its duration and shrink the maps so sprint isn’t needed 100% of the time. Make it for quick gotta get outta here moments. Not something that can be relied on every time.

> 2535423926513264;15236:
> Sprint as much as I hate it has a place in halo. Just limit its duration and shrink the maps so sprint isn’t needed 100% of the time. Make it for quick gotta get outta here moments. Not something that can be relied on every time.

You also have a gun, and up to 6 grenades.
Just saying.

> 2533275031935123;15237:
> > 2535423926513264;15236:
> > Sprint as much as I hate it has a place in halo. Just limit its duration and shrink the maps so sprint isn’t needed 100% of the time. Make it for quick gotta get outta here moments. Not something that can be relied on every time.
>
> You also have a gun, and up to 6 grenades.
> Just saying.

That’s a given. Sprint is just abused and it should not be up 100% of the time

> 2535423926513264;15238:
> > 2533275031935123;15237:
> > > 2535423926513264;15236:
> > > Sprint as much as I hate it has a place in halo. Just limit its duration and shrink the maps so sprint isn’t needed 100% of the time. Make it for quick gotta get outta here moments. Not something that can be relied on every time.
> >
> > You also have a gun, and up to 6 grenades.
> > Just saying.
>
> That’s a given. Sprint is just abused and it should not be up 100% of the time

Yes, but the problem is that it prolongs firefights and requires little skill to use.
I’d rather that it’s an armor ability over mapped as a permanent ability.

> 2533275031935123;15239:
> > 2535423926513264;15238:
> > > 2533275031935123;15237:
> > > > 2535423926513264;15236:
> > > > Sprint as much as I hate it has a place in halo. Just limit its duration and shrink the maps so sprint isn’t needed 100% of the time. Make it for quick gotta get outta here moments. Not something that can be relied on every time.
> > >
> > > You also have a gun, and up to 6 grenades.
> > > Just saying.
> >
> > That’s a given. Sprint is just abused and it should not be up 100% of the time
>
> Yes, but the problem is that it prolongs firefights and requires little skill to use.
> I’d rather that it’s an armor ability over mapped as a permanent ability.

I don’t want AAs to come back ever. Make it a pickup like overshield. Grants you 8 seconds of sprint time and you can use it quickly or slowly. Make it worth savoring. A power weapon worth controlling on map

> 2535423926513264;15240:
> > 2533275031935123;15239:
> > > 2535423926513264;15238:
> > > > 2533275031935123;15237:
> > > > > 2535423926513264;15236:
> > > > > Sprint as much as I hate it has a place in halo. Just limit its duration and shrink the maps so sprint isn’t needed 100% of the time. Make it for quick gotta get outta here moments. Not something that can be relied on every time.
> > > >
> > > > You also have a gun, and up to 6 grenades.
> > > > Just saying.
> > >
> > > That’s a given. Sprint is just abused and it should not be up 100% of the time
> >
> > Yes, but the problem is that it prolongs firefights and requires little skill to use.
> > I’d rather that it’s an armor ability over mapped as a permanent ability.
>
> I don’t want AAs to come back ever. Make it a pickup like overshield. Grants you 8 seconds of sprint time and you can use it quickly or slowly. Make it worth savoring. A power weapon worth controlling on map

Then why not use the already existing Speed Boost power up, which does the same thing and more?

> 2533274825830455;15234:
> I didn’t buy Reach expecting to get a new take on FPS Halo gameplay (and I didn’t get one either), I bought it to get new stories and maps with the gameplay I’ve got to know (albeit with some variations, which I didn’t happen to like), and that’s exactly what I received. This is in contrast to ODST, which I bought expecting completely different gameplay, and received exactly that.

Seeing as I have a completely different opinion on that topic, might I ask how you came to have these expectations? Especially with respect to ODST? Seeing as it was originally marketed as a DLC, a small extension to Halo 3’s campaign, then later as a standalone-addon, after they exceeded their initially planned campaign length, I pretty much expected exactly what I got: Halo 3 gameplay with miniscule tweaks to make you feel more human.
As for Reach, if anything I was expecting the gameplay to be even further from the original trilogy, with Bungie advertising “Squad Gameplay”. As it turned out, this was based on a misunderstanding; when I think of “squad gameplay”, I think of Rainbow Six, Ghost Recon or SWAT 4, whereas this obviously means something else to Bungie entirely. But even so, it was still very recognizable as a spinoff to me. It (somewhat) looked like Halo, but it certainly didn’t play like it. The difference is, in contrast to 343’s later games, it didn’t pretend to be…

> 2533274833081329;15241:
> > 2535423926513264;15240:
> > > 2533275031935123;15239:
> > > > 2535423926513264;15238:
> > > > > 2533275031935123;15237:
> > > > > > 2535423926513264;15236:
> > > > > > Sprint as much as I hate it has a place in halo. Just limit its duration and shrink the maps so sprint isn’t needed 100% of the time. Make it for quick gotta get outta here moments. Not something that can be relied on every time.
> > > > >
> > > > > You also have a gun, and up to 6 grenades.
> > > > > Just saying.
> > > >
> > > > That’s a given. Sprint is just abused and it should not be up 100% of the time
> > >
> > > Yes, but the problem is that it prolongs firefights and requires little skill to use.
> > > I’d rather that it’s an armor ability over mapped as a permanent ability.
> >
> > I don’t want AAs to come back ever. Make it a pickup like overshield. Grants you 8 seconds of sprint time and you can use it quickly or slowly. Make it worth savoring. A power weapon worth controlling on map
>
> Then why not use the already existing Speed Boost power up, which does the same thing and more?

Speed boost is auto use you can’t choose to activate. If you can choose to use it or walk than that would be cool

Remove sprint spartan charge and groundpound but leave boost and clamber with increased movement speed I think thats the best inbetween

> 2533274801176260;15242:
> > 2533274825830455;15234:
> > I didn’t buy Reach expecting to get a new take on FPS Halo gameplay (and I didn’t get one either), I bought it to get new stories and maps with the gameplay I’ve got to know (albeit with some variations, which I didn’t happen to like), and that’s exactly what I received. This is in contrast to ODST, which I bought expecting completely different gameplay, and received exactly that.
>
> Seeing as I have a completely different opinion on that topic, might I ask how you came to have these expectations? Especially with respect to ODST? Seeing as it was originally marketed as a DLC, a small extension to Halo 3’s campaign, then later as a standalone-addon, after they exceeded their initially planned campaign length, I pretty much expected exactly what I got: Halo 3 gameplay with miniscule tweaks to make you feel more human.
> As for Reach, if anything I was expecting the gameplay to be even further from the original trilogy, with Bungie advertising “Squad Gameplay”. As it turned out, this was based on a misunderstanding; when I think of “squad gameplay”, I think of Rainbow Six, Ghost Recon or SWAT 4, whereas this obviously means something else to Bungie. But even so, it was still very recognizable as a spinoff to me. It (somewhat) looked like Halo, but it certainly didn’t play like it. The difference is, in contrast to 343’s later games, it didn’t pretend to be…

Well, first I should probably clarify that these were the expectations I had once I already had a reasonable idea of what the games were going to be like. These were the expectations I went in to play the games with. When we still knew very little about the games, I didn’t yet have well-adjusted expectations of what I was going to get.

When it comes to ODST, when I actually got to play the game, while I was clearly playing a game derived from Halo 3, your character was significantly weaker in many ways: health, movement, jump height, grenade throws. Considering it was built on Halo 3 with limited development time, which probably limited the amount of changes that could be made, it did try to distance itself from that gameplay. When it comes to Reach, sure it had new mechanics because it was actually a fully fledged game with a standard development time, but with that in mind, I think it does very little to actually distance itself from Halo 3. You’re still playing a Spartan, so the basic mechanics are about the same with marginally smaller movement speed and jump height. The health system is noticeably different, but it’s still directly inspired by CE. The movement and basic weapon mechanics are roughly the same, and therefore feel instantly familiar to me. And because of that, I see it more as direct evolution of Halo 3 than as an attempt to make something different.

None of that is to say that Reach plays like Halo 3, but that it might as well be an adaptation of the traditional Halo gameplay to the gaming landscape of 2010. If Bungie had wanted to make a spin-off that’s truly a departure from traditional Halo, they could’ve done it with Reach. They could’ve made the Spartan IIIs genuinely weaker and had the game be much more like a stealth-based shooter. But they didn’t, because the multiplayer still needed to attract the same audience that was playing Halo 3.

So, in short, I think ODST does much more to depart itself from the traditional gameplay within the constraints it has than Reach does with all the freedom it has. ODST feels like it tries to sell me the promise of being an ODST, even if it’s a bit afraid to do it as much as it could. Reach, on the other hand, feels like an adaptation of Halo CE’s gameplay to the trends of 2010, where I only happen to be a Spartan III because that gave more freedom for the writers than Spartan IIs. Consequently, I move slightly slower and jump slightly lower, but not enough for it to make meaningful difference in gameplay.