The sprint discussion thread

> 2727626560040591;15063:
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> > Perhaps, 343 found a way to work on sprint?
>
> This is probably the best iteration of sprint that we’re going to get. The only other nerf I can think of is to make it like Reach where it had a cooldown meter, but 343 should be asking themselves if it’s even worth keeping at that point.
>
> Seems to me that they know it’s bad for the game, but they just want to shoehorn it in no matter what because it fits into their immersion theme for the game as well as it being in other modern shooters.

That’s a good way to say it… Imo I can easily see the next Halo with out sprint. Even a few pros have voiced this. But lets say they remove sprint and just brought up the base speed a bit. Wouldn’t that be the best of both worlds really? I could easily see this. Wouldn’t that play to both sprint and no sprint players. One of the things that burns me over sprint is Spartan Charge. Cant stand that at all…lol…

Seeing as immersion was brought up again.

Immersion research.

If I can take something from that with my at the moment muddled mashed brain ( I’m sick, not hungover ), it’s that a part of something being immersive is that things which happen in a game are believable in that game, and that it is consistent ( or when it’s not consistent it offers a valid explanation of why it isn’t. ).

While I most certainly do not get immersed in every game I play, I do find it hard to take people seriously when they say stuff like
“Sprint helps with immersion” or “I won’t get immersed if it doesn’t have sprint”.

Either I’m far more manipulatable than others, or it’s something telling of those saying these things.

If you don’t want to get immersed, then you won’t get immersed. If you do not allow yourself to get immered, then you won’t get immersed.

The way I see it, if i343 goes on saying things are there for an immersive experience, they’re telling you to get immersed because of their things, and not allow you to be immersed into the game on your own terms, based on what the game is, and what kind of experience it provides.

The best immersive feelings I’ve ever had have been when I’ve forgotten I’ve had a controller in my hands, or had my hands on my keyboard and mouse, not seeing or hearing anything else other than the screen and the game sounds.

Sprint is only objectivabely immersive for people who conciously decide that games without sprint aren’t as immersive as games with sprint.

> 2533274795123910;15067:
> The way I see it, if i343 goes on saying things are there for an immersive experience, they’re telling you to get immersed because of their things, and not allow you to be immersed into the game on your own terms, based on what the game is, and what kind of experience it provides.

You might’ve seen it already, but if you want a more in-depth look at 343’s general reasoning for having immersion, then Josh Holmes explained it in this post.

> 2727626560040591;15068:
> > 2533274795123910;15067:
> > The way I see it, if i343 goes on saying things are there for an immersive experience, they’re telling you to get immersed because of their things, and not allow you to be immersed into the game on your own terms, based on what the game is, and what kind of experience it provides.
>
> You might’ve seen it already, but if you want a more in-depth look at 343’s general reasoning for having immersion, then Josh Holmes explained it in this post.

ah yes, that one. Think it was in my subcon… Sublevel-brain… When I wrote about immersion.

To me, his first paragraph about immersion is all over the place and does not at time resemble what I asociate with immersion.
How it feels to shoot for example, that’s all good and dandy. After that though it feels as if “immersion” could be switched with “simulator” and it’d make little difference.

Maximize immersion?
They do so by nailing the feelings of doing things, but what does that have to do with the mechanics implemented of which you came on to talk about Josh?

Is it just padding to the post or am I going to have to assume these mechanics were implemented “to maximize immersion” like it is some quantifiable resource.

It feels insulting when things are told to me, that “they are immersive because they were implemented for that”.
Do they have so little faith in their abilities to create an immersive experience that they need to tell others of the “immersive mechanics and aspects”? Or are they afraid people won’t find it immersive so they have to point out “immersive things”?

I do trust my immersive instincts and telling me how to dive into a game is a pure slap in the face for me as a gamer.

Let me put it this way. I only buy xbox live and and xbox to play halo. and i wont play halo 6 if it doesn’t have sprint.

> 2533274803135613;15070:
> Let me put it this way. I only buy xbox live and and xbox to play halo. and i wont play halo 6 if it doesn’t have sprint.

Well, there are enough people here feeling the same way BUT with sprint implemented. That’s the problem, isn’t it? The addition of enhanced movement as a core mechanic since H4 changed the Halo like gameplay too much and splitted the community.

How would you feel if H6 is going to be a bit more basic on its core elements, but also introduced an “enhanced” modular sandbox? Meaning the game has sprint and thruster as power-ups on the map or as loadouts in modes like WZ or Invasion, but is build around H3 movements at ~120% base speed and 90 degree fov (which would drastically increase the feeling of speed even without sprint as a standard anyway)?

It’s the only way I can think of to have both without further reducing the community. At least I got the feeling the majority of the Halo fan-base is against enhanced movements. 343i has to think about the general public as well though, and sprint nowadays is expected to be there.

> 2533274795098161;15071:
> > 2533274803135613;15070:
> > Let me put it this way. I only buy xbox live and and xbox to play halo. and i wont play halo 6 if it doesn’t have sprint.
>
> Well, there are enough people here feeling the same way BUT with sprint implemented. That’s the problem, isn’t it? The addition of enhanced movement as a core mechanic since H4 changed the Halo like gameplay too much and splitted the community.
>
> How would you feel if H6 is going to be a bit more basic on its core elements, but also introduced an “enhanced” modular sandbox? Meaning the game has sprint and thruster as power-ups on the map or as loadouts in modes like WZ or Invasion, but is build around H3 movements at ~120% base speed and 90 degree fov (which would drastically increase the feeling of speed even without sprint as a standard anyway)?
>
> It’s the only way I can think of to have both without further reducing the community. At least I got the feeling the majority of the Halo fan-base is against enhanced movements. 343i has to think about the general public as well though, and sprint nowadays is expected to be there.

most of the halo community has plenty of old halos to keep them occupied forever. NO SPRINT NO BUY. its about as simple as the iphone 3.5mm jack being removed.

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> > > 2533274803135613;15070:
> > > Let me put it this way. I only buy xbox live and and xbox to play halo. and i wont play halo 6 if it doesn’t have sprint.
> >
> > Well, there are enough people here feeling the same way BUT with sprint implemented. That’s the problem, isn’t it? The addition of enhanced movement as a core mechanic since H4 changed the Halo like gameplay too much and splitted the community.
> >
> > How would you feel if H6 is going to be a bit more basic on its core elements, but also introduced an “enhanced” modular sandbox? Meaning the game has sprint and thruster as power-ups on the map or as loadouts in modes like WZ or Invasion, but is build around H3 movements at ~120% base speed and 90 degree fov (which would drastically increase the feeling of speed even without sprint as a standard anyway)?
> >
> > It’s the only way I can think of to have both without further reducing the community. At least I got the feeling the majority of the Halo fan-base is against enhanced movements. 343i has to think about the general public as well though, and sprint nowadays is expected to be there.
>
> most of the halo community has plenty of old halos to keep them occupied forever. NO SPRINT NO BUY. its about as simple as the iphone 3.5mm jack being removed.

And the same for you as well. You will have Reach, Halo 4, and Halo 5 to play when Halo 6 arrives without sprint. I would be surprised if it is implemented at this point with the classic Halo movement growing.

> 2533274803135613;15072:
> > 2533274795098161;15071:
> > > 2533274803135613;15070:
> > > Let me put it this way. I only buy xbox live and and xbox to play halo. and i wont play halo 6 if it doesn’t have sprint.
> >
> > Well, there are enough people here feeling the same way BUT with sprint implemented. That’s the problem, isn’t it? The addition of enhanced movement as a core mechanic since H4 changed the Halo like gameplay too much and splitted the community.
> >
> > How would you feel if H6 is going to be a bit more basic on its core elements, but also introduced an “enhanced” modular sandbox? Meaning the game has sprint and thruster as power-ups on the map or as loadouts in modes like WZ or Invasion, but is build around H3 movements at ~120% base speed and 90 degree fov (which would drastically increase the feeling of speed even without sprint as a standard anyway)?
> >
> > It’s the only way I can think of to have both without further reducing the community. At least I got the feeling the majority of the Halo fan-base is against enhanced movements. 343i has to think about the general public as well though, and sprint nowadays is expected to be there.
>
> most of the halo community has plenty of old halos to keep them occupied forever. NO SPRINT NO BUY. its about as simple as the iphone 3.5mm jack being removed.

That… doesn’t answer my question, you just repeated your first comment! But okay I guess! :sweat_smile:

> 2533274803135613;15072:
> > 2533274795098161;15071:
> > > 2533274803135613;15070:
> > > Let me put it this way. I only buy xbox live and and xbox to play halo. and i wont play halo 6 if it doesn’t have sprint.
> >
> > Well, there are enough people here feeling the same way BUT with sprint implemented. That’s the problem, isn’t it? The addition of enhanced movement as a core mechanic since H4 changed the Halo like gameplay too much and splitted the community.
> >
> > How would you feel if H6 is going to be a bit more basic on its core elements, but also introduced an “enhanced” modular sandbox? Meaning the game has sprint and thruster as power-ups on the map or as loadouts in modes like WZ or Invasion, but is build around H3 movements at ~120% base speed and 90 degree fov (which would drastically increase the feeling of speed even without sprint as a standard anyway)?
> >
> > It’s the only way I can think of to have both without further reducing the community. At least I got the feeling the majority of the Halo fan-base is against enhanced movements. 343i has to think about the general public as well though, and sprint nowadays is expected to be there.
>
> most of the halo community has plenty of old halos to keep them occupied forever. NO SPRINT NO BUY. its about as simple as the iphone 3.5mm jack being removed.

Just like how you have Halo 5 to occupy you forever. The rest of us can move forward while you stay behind.

The arguement of “Just go play MCC” is seriously flawed. We may like classic gameplay, but we also like to have new graphics and updates to broken game mechanics, or game mechanics that may need an update.
The same arguement can be used against pro-sprinters. Just play Halo 5 if you want sprint.
And you lot get just as upset as we do when you say it.

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> > 2533274803135613;15072:
> > > 2533274795098161;15071:
> > > > 2533274803135613;15070:
> > > > Let me put it this way. I only buy xbox live and and xbox to play halo. and i wont play halo 6 if it doesn’t have sprint.
> > >
> > > Well, there are enough people here feeling the same way BUT with sprint implemented. That’s the problem, isn’t it? The addition of enhanced movement as a core mechanic since H4 changed the Halo like gameplay too much and splitted the community.
> > >
> > > How would you feel if H6 is going to be a bit more basic on its core elements, but also introduced an “enhanced” modular sandbox? Meaning the game has sprint and thruster as power-ups on the map or as loadouts in modes like WZ or Invasion, but is build around H3 movements at ~120% base speed and 90 degree fov (which would drastically increase the feeling of speed even without sprint as a standard anyway)?
> > >
> > > It’s the only way I can think of to have both without further reducing the community. At least I got the feeling the majority of the Halo fan-base is against enhanced movements. 343i has to think about the general public as well though, and sprint nowadays is expected to be there.
> >
> > most of the halo community has plenty of old halos to keep them occupied forever. NO SPRINT NO BUY. its about as simple as the iphone 3.5mm jack being removed.
>
> Just like how you have Halo 5 to occupy you forever. The rest of us can move forward while you stay behind.

> 2533275031935123;15076:
> The arguement of “Just go play MCC” is seriously flawed. We may like classic gameplay, but we also like to have new graphics and updates to broken game mechanics, or game mechanics that may need an update.
> The same arguement can be used against pro-sprinters. Just play Halo 5 if you want sprint.
> And you lot get just as upset as we do when you say it.

Exactly and… exactly. This thread has been around for how long, with how many posts and people still try to hand wave one side of the argument away. Even reading back through just a few pages should give a clear indicator that no matter which side of the argument one is on, it just can’t be dismissed in a “simple” manner.

Halo: CE, 2 and 3 had no sprint mechanic. Halo: Reach, 4 and 5 do. It appears that those who prefer sprint have just as many “old Halos” to keep them occupied forever as those who oppose it do.

I mean I could just as easily say most of the Halo community have plenty of even newer Halos to keep them occupied forever. I could even bolster that argument with something along the lines of “we’re overdue for a Halo we prefer” and end that with NO SPRINT I’LL BUY, followed up with some comment about simplicity. I could… but I’m already aware that it isn’t that simple. If it was, this thread would’ve died long ago.

The point is, I was playing Halo 5 today(campaign), and I realised you do not need abilities,that they are completely useless, and the pros far outweigh the cons.

Without Sprint and abilities
Vehicle combat is more common.
Devs have less to design around and can focus on AI and can create larger missions.
Bullet magnetism can be reduced to create a learning curve for newer players and reward older players.
The Classic Halo fanbase migh just comeback to bolster the 50,000 of us that are still here on Youtube.

With Sprint and abilities
You move faster. Can be achieved via vehicles, teleporters, man cannons, and map devices.
You can reach higher places. Was already remedied by crouch jump
You can escape from a fight and thus encourages recklesness.
And “Its more Realistic”.

I should add I used to think Sprint and abilities were great, and then I realised that just because a game feels more realistic doesnt mean its better, after all none of us want to actually find it to be real, sometimes let fiction be fiction and be glad you can wake up the next morning and go to work or school.

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> > I would like to say this: Many of the Halo 5 maps are clones from prior games (before sprint was introduced) so I do not believe those were actually stretched to compensate. Not by much anyway, if they were stretched at all.
>
> Many? Such as? Truth is a Midship remake (and we know based on measurements that it has been stretched), and Mercy is a remake of Haven which is a Halo 4 map, but that’s already from the sprint era. That’s about all I can come up with.

Is the size increase in proportion to sprint’s bonus movement speed, or does the map just happen to be a tad larger than it used to? Because if what you’re saying is true, you’re going to see similar numbers such as (for example) Truth might be 50% larger than Midship and sprint might provide 45% more movement speed. And it should be the trend with most maps in that way as well.

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> > > I would like to say this: Many of the Halo 5 maps are clones from prior games (before sprint was introduced) so I do not believe those were actually stretched to compensate. Not by much anyway, if they were stretched at all.
> >
> > Many? Such as? Truth is a Midship remake (and we know based on measurements that it has been stretched), and Mercy is a remake of Haven which is a Halo 4 map, but that’s already from the sprint era. That’s about all I can come up with.
>
> Is the size increase in proportion to sprint’s bonus movement speed, or does the map just happen to be a tad larger than it used to? Because if what you’re saying is true, you’re going to see similar numbers such as (for example) Truth might be 50% larger than Midship and sprint might provide 45% more movement speed. And it should be the trend with most maps in that way as well.

If I can believe the hardcore forgers it’s generally speaking a bit less than what sprint provides. So if sprint and clamber through shortcuts adds a 45% increment of speed the additional space should be around 30 to 40% larger in proportion (talking solely in covered distances) and with additional cover situations in between.

The reason for that is quite simply balance, so not just for the sensation of speed like other tried to imply a few pages back. The devs have to consider that the additional space can also be used as a battle zone were players shoot and don’t run, therefore the distance between one connection point to a focal zone can’t be identical to prior titles - even if the design philosophy of providing mid-range battles between one focal point to the other from H1-3 still prevails. Also because clamber tooks away the possibility of shooting more cover positions in connection zones are needed as well to provide situation were the function can be used instead of just jumping, as well as encourage thruster evades. … incorporated jail-break-free-cards, yeeeeaaaahhhh. :joy:

Reason why level design in H5G should be drasticaly different to H4 as well even though both are sprint heavy. My guess would be that distance covered and sprint are more or less proportional to each other if not for more corners to give players a chance to leave sprint and take a shooting stance? (*Haven’t enough experience there though. Haven’t play much H4 and barely touched forge there, so my contact with other way better forger than me was limited as well! Below is what I can remember was critized back than.*💁)

For the rest the rest the game is much more vertical with the tendacy of having a three levels circular map. Lower and long connection on the outside with differend low jump elevations, two to four climbing spots mid-way to the connection dircted back to a focal or base point, an open high point with two entries and an escape route in the middle, as well as two focal base points in between somewhat directly connected to each other through wide jumps and mid- to wide-range battle situations.

That’s pretty much how I would describe map design in Halo 5 Guardians. Below the others in comparison to understand why areas got different sizes in different chapters, even though they get the same layout of older maps.

4v4 level design:black_small_square: HCE - H3 >> map design movement coverege based on floaty movement and fast strafe in core spaces, close quarter situations in connection points in between focus areas and surrounding pathways, mid-range battles between focus areas, no single exit or entry in focus areas to encourage constant movement
:black_small_square: Reach >> same core design concept for focus points, but less wide interior spaces due to slower strife, more elevation but less hight differences between them due to lower max jump hight and jet-pack, more space and higher distances for outside pathways surrounding focus points to accomodate AA sprint, more high distance combat situations even in 4v4 due to additional sprint spaces on map borders
:black_small_square: Halo 4 >> more corridors as connection-situation between focus points, secondary pathways become increasingly vertical and intricated instead of outside areas -> because of a higher ledge distance only achivable with sprint-jump (meaning more sprint and less combat), more edges to grant coverege from bigger explosion areas and make x-ray vision worth, wider focus points due to a faster strife, cover to corner map-design

Keep in mind that H4 is just an assumption, I really haven’t played it much! But that was the general consensus when it was released! :yum:

> 2533274806739045;15079:
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> > > 2533274806739045;14995:
> > > I would like to say this: Many of the Halo 5 maps are clones from prior games (before sprint was introduced) so I do not believe those were actually stretched to compensate. Not by much anyway, if they were stretched at all.
> >
> > Many? Such as? Truth is a Midship remake (and we know based on measurements that it has been stretched), and Mercy is a remake of Haven which is a Halo 4 map, but that’s already from the sprint era. That’s about all I can come up with.
>
> Is the size increase in proportion to sprint’s bonus movement speed, or does the map just happen to be a tad larger than it used to? Because if what you’re saying is true, you’re going to see similar numbers such as (for example) Truth might be 50% larger than Midship and sprint might provide 45% more movement speed. And it should be the trend with most maps in that way as well.

Could you provide examples of remake maps from pre-sprint Halo making it into sprint-Halo? More than Truth which is in Halo 5.

Second, there’s an article linked to now and again which I found ages ago but can’t find now when I need it, and am on the phone. That article shed some light on sprint and map metrics.

Third, measurements were done on Haven vs Guardian and later Midship vs Truth.

Haven being Halo 4’s smallest map, up untill the rooftop one which was slightly smaller, was up against Guardian, smallest map on Halo 3. Test performed by tsassi.
With mobility on ( Infinite sprint in Halo 4 ), the time it took to cross Haven was close to identical to that of Guardian’s time to cross. Only difference was that Haven required infinite sprint to get that time.
However, I did some math on it based on the times and provided movement speeds. Haven was larger, noticably larger, than Guardian in terms of sheer size. I think it was in overview area, 60% larger than Guardian.

Truth and midship had similar cross times if sprint was used on Truth, if I recall correctly.

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> > > > 2533274806739045;14995:
> > > > I would like to say this: Many of the Halo 5 maps are clones from prior games (before sprint was introduced) so I do not believe those were actually stretched to compensate. Not by much anyway, if they were stretched at all.
> > >
> > > Many? Such as? Truth is a Midship remake (and we know based on measurements that it has been stretched), and Mercy is a remake of Haven which is a Halo 4 map, but that’s already from the sprint era. That’s about all I can come up with.
> >
> > Is the size increase in proportion to sprint’s bonus movement speed, or does the map just happen to be a tad larger than it used to? Because if what you’re saying is true, you’re going to see similar numbers such as (for example) Truth might be 50% larger than Midship and sprint might provide 45% more movement speed. And it should be the trend with most maps in that way as well.
>
> Could you provide examples of remake maps from pre-sprint Halo making it into sprint-Halo? More than Truth which is in Halo 5.
>
> Second, there’s an article linked to now and again which I found ages ago but can’t find now when I need it, and am on the phone. That article shed some light on sprint and map metrics.
>
> Third, measurements were done on Haven vs Guardian and later Midship vs Truth.
>
> Haven being Halo 4’s smallest map, up untill the rooftop one which was slightly smaller, was up against Guardian, smallest map on Halo 3. Test performed by tsassi.
> With mobility on ( Infinite sprint in Halo 4 ), the time it took to cross Haven was close to identical to that of Guardian’s time to cross. Only difference was that Haven required infinite sprint to get that time.
> However, I did some math on it based on the times and provided movement speeds. Haven was larger, noticably larger, than Guardian in terms of sheer size. I think it was in overview area, 60% larger than Guardian.
>
> Truth and midship had similar cross times if sprint was used on Truth, if I recall correctly.

Almost all of the BTB maps are remakes from previous Halo games. Test those.

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> > > 2533274806739045;15079:
> > > > 2533274825830455;14996:
> > > > > 2533274806739045;14995:
> > > > > I would like to say this: Many of the Halo 5 maps are clones from prior games (before sprint was introduced) so I do not believe those were actually stretched to compensate. Not by much anyway, if they were stretched at all.
> > > >
> > > > Many? Such as? Truth is a Midship remake (and we know based on measurements that it has been stretched), and Mercy is a remake of Haven which is a Halo 4 map, but that’s already from the sprint era. That’s about all I can come up with.
> > >
> > > Is the size increase in proportion to sprint’s bonus movement speed, or does the map just happen to be a tad larger than it used to? Because if what you’re saying is true, you’re going to see similar numbers such as (for example) Truth might be 50% larger than Midship and sprint might provide 45% more movement speed. And it should be the trend with most maps in that way as well.
> >
> > Could you provide examples of remake maps from pre-sprint Halo making it into sprint-Halo? More than Truth which is in Halo 5.
> >
> > Second, there’s an article linked to now and again which I found ages ago but can’t find now when I need it, and am on the phone. That article shed some light on sprint and map metrics.
> >
> > Third, measurements were done on Haven vs Guardian and later Midship vs Truth.
> >
> > Haven being Halo 4’s smallest map, up untill the rooftop one which was slightly smaller, was up against Guardian, smallest map on Halo 3. Test performed by tsassi.
> > With mobility on ( Infinite sprint in Halo 4 ), the time it took to cross Haven was close to identical to that of Guardian’s time to cross. Only difference was that Haven required infinite sprint to get that time.
> > However, I did some math on it based on the times and provided movement speeds. Haven was larger, noticably larger, than Guardian in terms of sheer size. I think it was in overview area, 60% larger than Guardian.
> >
> > Truth and midship had similar cross times if sprint was used on Truth, if I recall correctly.
>
> Almost all of the BTB maps are remakes from previous Halo games. Test those.

Provides faster modes of transportation than Sprint, also subject to quite different map design criterias, most likely.
Valhalla to Ragnarok found to be 1:1 scale remake. However, some who took a closer look at what transcribed during matches found that they played differently.
Pitfall, a 1:1 Remake of Halo 3’s The Pit was of a smaller map, quite a late in Halo 4’s lifespan, was believed to have quite different gameplay from the original.

Previously talked about links:
Gamasutra page 2.
First measurements done.
Truth and Midship. Unrelated Video comparison on the same stuff.

> 2533274795123910;15083:
> Provides faster modes of transportation than Sprint, also subject to quite different map design criterias, most likely.
> Valhalla to Ragnarok found to be 1:1 scale remake. However, some who took a closer look at what transcribed during matches found that they played differently.

The BTB remakes in the current rotation that I know of are Risen (Uplift), Guillotine (Headlong), Recurve (Longbow), Viking (Valhalla), Alter (Santrap) and Deadlock (Standoff). So slightly more than half of the maps.

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> > 2533274795123910;15083:
> > Provides faster modes of transportation than Sprint, also subject to quite different map design criterias, most likely.
> > Valhalla to Ragnarok found to be 1:1 scale remake. However, some who took a closer look at what transcribed during matches found that they played differently.
>
> The BTB remakes in the current rotation that I know of are Risen (Uplift), Guillotine (Headlong), Recurve (Longbow), Viking (Valhalla), Alter (Santrap) and Deadlock (Standoff). So slightly more than half of the maps.

How about some smaller maps? Lockout, Guardian or Wizard. Non-BTB maps from pre-sprint games.