The sprint discussion thread

Games Halo 5: Guardians
15006

> 2533274801176260;15005:
> > 2535416616313329;15000:
> > I just like the feel of running around in Halo not walking slowly and calling it running. I run faster in real life than Halo CE-3 Master Chief!
>
> Now I legitimately want to see a video of you running at that speed, because Chief’s 7m/s is more than 2/3rds of Usain Bolts current sprint world record.

Also, slightly higher than the 5000 meter world record speed, over twice as fast as typical jog, and over four times as fast as typical walking speed. Definitely qualifies has very fast running. Most people would probably have trouble cycling at that speed for extended periods of time.

15007

> 2533274801176260;15005:
> > 2535416616313329;15000:
> > I just like the feel of running around in Halo not walking slowly and calling it running. I run faster in real life than Halo CE-3 Master Chief!
>
> Now I legitimately want to see a video of you running at that speed, because Chief’s 7m/s is more than 2/3rds of Usain Bolts current sprint world record.

Well I didn’t know the exact speed of the Chief. I am basing his speed off of how fast I appear to move in Halo 3. If that speed is really 7m/s, Bungie must have made some major design mistakes in the first person perspective. Maybe 343i just needs to find out how to get the scale/perspective of sizes down. Whenever I have an objective that is “x” meters away, it appears to be a lot closer.

15008

> 2533274833081329;15003:
> > 2535416616313329;15002:
> >
>
> Even if they were good at Halo, they would get the same thing, either the flashy animations in the later games or the straightforward body hitting the floor in the previous games. How good a person feels is in relation to how well they’re doing in a match or in that moment of time. They’ll feel good when they take out that sniper, they’ll feel good when they stick someone. They’ll feel good just by killing a lot of people in succession. “Flashy” animations doesn’t solely contribute to that.
>
> We have matchmaking systems that are pretty close to “perfect”, the problem (Especially in Halo 5) is that the population is too small to maintain it. To a point, people would rather have an unbalanced game than no game, but people would definitely want a balanced game over an unbalanced game. If there were enough people to manage all skill levels, then the bad players wouldn’t notice they’re facing other bad players, and realistically they wouldn’t care because they’re having fun, not being stomped by someone better than them.

I agree with you that we all want a balanced game. Casual and competitive gamers can all have fun in a balanced sandbox. I would also like to add that the difference between a great player and a bad player is just skill gap. If two bad players were fighting each other, would they actually be bad? Ideally, we would all get perfect matchmaking. Everyone would be matched based on their skill level. High skill ceiling and fair matches. I want Halo to keep things balanced, therefore keeping competitive players returning while keeping BTB slightly chaotic and casual. I absolutely hated Halo 5’s Warzone and BTB. They just couldn’t reproduce the feeling of Halo 4’s BTB. It could’ve been 4’s maps though: Vortex, Ragnarok, Meltdown, etc. Halo 5 for whatever reason couldn’t capture the casual feel. I think Warzone was Halo 5’s attempt to capture the chaos of Halo 4, but it was too chaotic to be fun.

15009

> 2535416616313329;15007:
> > 2533274801176260;15005:
> > > 2535416616313329;15000:
> > > I just like the feel of running around in Halo not walking slowly and calling it running. I run faster in real life than Halo CE-3 Master Chief!
> >
> > Now I legitimately want to see a video of you running at that speed, because Chief’s 7m/s is more than 2/3rds of Usain Bolts current sprint world record.
>
> Well I didn’t know the exact speed of the Chief. I am basing his speed off of how fast I appear to move in Halo 3. If that speed is really 7m/s, Bungie must have made some major design mistakes in the first person perspective. Maybe 343i just needs to find out how to get the scale/perspective of sizes down. Whenever I have an objective that is “x” meters away, it appears to be a lot closer.

Design mistakes, maybe, but hardly major. I can’t think of a single FPS—in fact, I can’t think of a single game—that would give an accurate perception of speed. One of the issues is that we don’t really perceive speed, per se, but we judge how fast things change relative to our subjective expecations. Sitting on a plane at cruicing altitude doesn’t feel like moving at all because everything’s so far away that it appears almost stationary.

For games it’s even worse, because not only can you not give the player a sensation of acceleration, but the expectation of how fast things ought to happen changes. In real life, it’s no problem (for most people anyway) to take a ten minute walk somewhere. But try to have the player do that in a game. They’ll be bored to death by the five minute mark. The player just expects everything to happen much faster than it would in a corresponding situation in real life, and that’s why you feel so slow in Halo.

The only way to approach this issue is to exaggerate everything. That is, either you give the player so much action that they don’t have time to think about the passage of time, or you give them a high field of view that warps their peripheral vision so that everything in the periphery of the screen moves really fast, or you give them a ridiculously high movement speed.

The original trilogy is actually a good indication of the effect of field of view on perception. Most people tend to rate Halo 3 the slowest, while rating CE the fastest. These games all have the same movement speed, but the FoV goes down as years go on. This is why many opponents of sprint have for a long time suggested that the issue is not movement speed, but the field of view, which should be brought to at least 90 degrees. (Though preferably everyone should just be allowed to set their own field of view in the settings.)

15010

> 2535416616313329;15007:
> > 2533274801176260;15005:
> > > 2535416616313329;15000:
> > > I just like the feel of running around in Halo not walking slowly and calling it running. I run faster in real life than Halo CE-3 Master Chief!
> >
> > Now I legitimately want to see a video of you running at that speed, because Chief’s 7m/s is more than 2/3rds of Usain Bolts current sprint world record.
>
> Well I didn’t know the exact speed of the Chief. I am basing his speed off of how fast I appear to move in Halo 3. If that speed is really 7m/s, Bungie must have made some major design mistakes in the first person perspective. Maybe 343i just needs to find out how to get the scale/perspective of sizes down. Whenever I have an objective that is “x” meters away, it appears to be a lot closer.

As tsassi has already mentioned; that’s why most Classic Halo fans have always suggested that instead of adding fad mechanics that needlessly (and in this case detrimentally) alter gameplay, there should have been an increase in FoV, in order to keep the gameplay consistent but change the players perception of it.

15011

> 2533274825830455;15009:
> > 2535416616313329;15007:
> > > 2533274801176260;15005:
> > > > 2535416616313329;15000:
> > > > I just like the feel of running around in Halo not walking slowly and calling it running. I run faster in real life than Halo CE-3 Master Chief!
> > >
> > > Now I legitimately want to see a video of you running at that speed, because Chief’s 7m/s is more than 2/3rds of Usain Bolts current sprint world record.
> >
> > Well I didn’t know the exact speed of the Chief. I am basing his speed off of how fast I appear to move in Halo 3. If that speed is really 7m/s, Bungie must have made some major design mistakes in the first person perspective. Maybe 343i just needs to find out how to get the scale/perspective of sizes down. Whenever I have an objective that is “x” meters away, it appears to be a lot closer.
>
> Design mistakes, maybe, but hardly major. I can’t think of a single FPS—in fact, I can’t think of a single game—that would give an accurate perception of speed. One of the issues is that we don’t really perceive speed, per se, but we judge how fast things change relative to our subjective expecations. Sitting on a plane at cruicing altitude doesn’t feel like moving at all because everything’s so far away that it appears almost stationary.

Another problem with Halo is that everything looks smaller than it is. Grunts are supposed to be slightly taller than 5ft, yet look like 3ft. Brutes are supposed to be roughly 8ft, yet look 6-7ft. I now we play as 7ft Spartans but this is the case even in Halo 3 ODST. In Halo you can get as close as possible to another Spartan and they still won’t look as tall as the screen. I think that third person games are better at getting size and distance correctly proportioned, though not perfectly.

Whatever the reason, Halo CE-3 feel very slow. Sprint or FoV, something needs to be done. Why did Bunge decrease Halo 3’s FoV in the first place? And how does FoV increase without everything on screen being squeezed? Ideally we would have 100 degree FoV since that is what we have in real life.

15012

> 2535416616313329;15011:
> Another problem with Halo is that everything looks smaller than it is. Grunts are supposed to be slightly taller than 5ft, yet look like 3ft. Brutes are supposed to be roughly 8ft, yet look 6-7ft. I now we play as 7ft Spartans but this is the case even in Halo 3 ODST. In Halo you can get as close as possible to another Spartan and they still won’t look as tall as the screen. I think that third person games are better at getting size and distance correctly proportioned, though not perfectly.

Nothing you can really do about it. It’s kind of strange that you assign apparent sizes to different characters, because if you think about it, what are you really comparing them to? What makes you say that a Brute looks 6 to 7 feet tall? The size of things is definitely difficult to communicate in the game, but there’s nothing you can really do about it.

> 2535416616313329;15011:
> Why did Bunge decrease Halo 3’s FoV in the first place?

One can only speculate what makes developers settle for the fields of view they set. For Halo 3 the exceptionally small field of view might have been due to the move to 16;9 aspect ratio and unfamiliarity regarding the appropriate field of view. Or it might have been performance concerns.

> 2535416616313329;15011:
> And how does FoV increase without everything on screen being squeezed?

It doesn’t, but you won’t really notice it unless you start paying close attention to objects near the periphery of the screen, or unless the field of view gets really high. For smaller fields of view the distortion is minor.

Really, how you perceive the field of view is dependent on your viewing distance. Someone sitting very close to their screen could comfortably play with a field of view upwards of 120 degrees, because then they’re looking at the edges of the screen at an angle, which counters some of the distortion. An easily disturbed person sitting far from their screen, on the other hand, might get motion sick from a very high field of view. That’s why an adjustable field of view would be optimal.

> 2535416616313329;15011:
> Ideally we would have 100 degree FoV since that is what we have in real life.

More like 200 degrees, actually, because the FoV is generally taken to be the total horizontal visible angle. But at that size the distortion is enormous. For example here’s Quake at FoVs of 150 degrees and above. In fact, the projection method games usually use is limited to 180 degrees.

15013

> 2533274825830455;15012:
> > 2535416616313329;15011:
> > Ideally we would have 100 degree FoV since that is what we have in real life.
>
> More like 200 degrees, actually, because the FoV is generally taken to be the total horizontal visible angle. But at that size the distortion is enormous. For example here’s Quake at FoVs of 150 degrees and above. In fact, the projection method games usually use is limited to 180 degrees.

I could only imagine how sickening that would be to look at in 60fps. I get motion sickness pretty easily i should mention lol

EDIT: i watched the video. Oh god…

15014

If Halo 6 comes out and I have less movement than I do now in Halo 5 I’m not buying it. Halo:CE was great because of what it was back in the day. Amazing, great story and concept. But the movements were limited to crouch jumping across the map. Sorry but how can you have all this great lore and story telling about how amazing and athletic the Spartan’s are only to have them limited to arcade style movement? (You know the game where you had to shoot off screen to reload) I tried to play Halo 3 the other day and didn’t even get into the first firefight before I got frustrated. There’s a scene where a group of marines scale the side of a rock face but your amazing athletic bio engineered 7 foot+ tall Spartan can’t ?? WHAT !! Also those same Marines are running WAY faster than Master Chief… Again… what ?

Halo 6 needs to keep the athletic abilities for Spartans’. If they are missing I won’t be buying Halo 6. If I want classic movement, then I’ll load one of the backwards compatible and visually enhanced Halo CE-3 games that 343i/Microsoft has given us. If I wanted to play a Halo game that was stuck in the past, I wouldn’t have bought an Xbox OneS Halo edition and a live account to go with it and just stuck to playing Halo CE on my Apple. (It had the Flamethrower!)

Heck, even Mario in NES’s classic Super Mario bros has sprint, clamber, ground pound, and power ups and he was just an over weight pasta loving Italian who got sucked into a bizarre world that made no sense. But we still loved it anyways. Let Halo’s movement’s evolve. Being able to “sprint” is a totally acceptable movement.

15015

I don’t think there is going back at this point, nor should there be. Halo 5 experience felt to me much closer to what a Spartan should move like, and if 343i goes back I will not be continuing onward, and I have been an avid fan since Halo CE

15016

> 2535441152633368;15014:
> If Halo 6 comes out and I have less movement than I do now in Halo 5 I’m not buying it. Halo:CE was great because of what it was back in the day. Amazing, great story and concept. But the movements were limited to crouch jumping across the map. Sorry but how can you have all this great lore and story telling about how amazing and athletic the Spartan’s are only to have them limited to arcade style movement? (You know the game where you had to shoot off screen to reload) I tried to play Halo 3 the other day and didn’t even get into the first firefight before I got frustrated. There’s a scene where a group of marines scale the side of a rock face but your amazing athletic bio engineered 7 foot+ tall Spartan can’t ?? WHAT !! Also those same Marines are running WAY faster than Master Chief… Again… what ?

> 2623748890068912;15015:
> I don’t think there is going back at this point, nor should there be. Halo 5 experience felt to me much closer to what a Spartan should move like, and if 343i goes back I will not be continuing onward, and I have been an avid fan since Halo CE

To the both of you, you try to say that it’s realistic for Spartans to sprint, but how is it realistic that Spartans can’t run and shoot at the same time?

It makes even less sense because we have been shown Spartans that can run and shoot at the same time, but we can’t do that.

You basically went from “arcade-style movement” to “modern FPS-style movement”, but you’re still nowhere close to “realistic movement.”

To ooSnip3r specifically, you can run faster than those Marines in Halo 3. I don’t know what made you think you couldn’t. In Halo 5, Arbiter climbs up a wall with his sword and all the Elites follow, but your “amazing athletic (slightly less) armor-enhanced Spartan” can’t either, and you actually do have Clamber, Sprint, etc. What does the lore say there?

15017

These two videos show why sprint in halo isn’t a good thing
https://youtu.be/u6YdPRyW0DA

https://youtu.be/a_oKr8fLDnw

15018

> 2535441152633368;15014:
> If Halo 6 comes out and I have less movement than I do now in Halo 5 I’m not buying it. Halo:CE was great because of what it was back in the day. Amazing, great story and concept. But the movements were limited to crouch jumping across the map. Sorry but how can you have all this great lore and story telling about how amazing and athletic the Spartan’s are only to have them limited to arcade style movement? (You know the game where you had to shoot off screen to reload) I tried to play Halo 3 the other day and didn’t even get into the first firefight before I got frustrated. There’s a scene where a group of marines scale the side of a rock face but your amazing athletic bio engineered 7 foot+ tall Spartan can’t ?? WHAT !! Also those same Marines are running WAY faster than Master Chief… Again… what ?
>
> Halo 6 needs to keep the athletic abilities for Spartans’. If they are missing I won’t be buying Halo 6. If I want classic movement, then I’ll load one of the backwards compatible and visually enhanced Halo CE-3 games that 343i/Microsoft has given us. If I wanted to play a Halo game that was stuck in the past, I wouldn’t have bought an Xbox OneS Halo edition and a live account to go with it and just stuck to playing Halo CE on my Apple. (It had the Flamethrower!)
>
> Heck, even Mario in NES’s classic Super Mario bros has sprint, clamber, ground pound, and power ups and he was just an over weight pasta loving Italian who got sucked into a bizarre world that made no sense. But we still loved it anyways. Let Halo’s movement’s evolve. Being able to “sprint” is a totally acceptable movement.

Your half ton super soldier can’t go prone either, despite us being shown two spartans going prone in Reach. How? Why?
Here are some other things:
-Corner leaning
-Wall hugging
-Blocking, grabbing, punching, kicking ( hand-to-hand combat more elaborate than gun but smacking )
-Blind firing
-Rolling grenades instead of arc throwing them

These aren’t necesserily shown to be done by spartans but considering normal humans can fo these (And we have some of them in other games seeing as you want to bring up an old Mario game).

Also, as you want to bring up “evolution”, could you elaborate on why sprint is a necessary “evolution”? Compared to far more simple things like a speed tweak, FoV change, motion blur and hud bobbing? Which also frees up the developers from balance things like map sizes, BMS vs Sprint speeds and so forth.

Then again, resorting to buzzwords and phrases to shine negative light on older Halo while simultaneously shine some sort of progressive positive light on newer installments won’t get you far.

“Evolve” is one of those words people see as something positive. “Let Halo evolve” implies there are people not wanting it to change, perhaps even being regressive. However users often fail to argument the actual subject. I could argue for multi-gravitation in Halo, something you could dislike and not want. My response? “Let Halo evolve, it’s the next step”.

Then of course, have you asked what others mayhap want instead? I mean, my vision / version of Halo could, to you, be far more Halo than Halo 5, and far more progressive and advanced than Halo 5 ( more evolved ).
Perhaps pro-sprinters are the true deniers of Halo evolution? Insisting on copy-cat mechanics for the sake of having them rather than spending development resources on new truly innovating stuff. An overweight italian could do it some decades ago, MC and Co needs to be able to do it and damn the consequences.

15019

everyones always hating on spartan abilities in h5 like they ruin the gunplay where sprint is really what makes h5 gunplay to the point where it would really be a different game w/o it. wouldnt make sense for devs to remove it at this point bcs it would genuinely cause more problems than it would solve. this late into the games development cycle it just doesnt make sense
as far as h6 is concerned… so long as the game runs on a well designed engine it can support some sort of sprint mechanic for casual gametypes w/o having to shoe-horn it onto the competitive playlist. the respective gamemodes and maps just need to be scaled to suit their player-mechanics and boom everyones happy.

h6 has jetpacks, promethean vision, playable elites, sprint, spartan charge etc. to create the most saturated sandbox/expansive possible and all the forge kids/campaign nerds are happy???

h6 competitive team doesnt try to force poorly designed AAA-game-trend-mechanics into HCS settings; instead focuses on making an actual halo title & all the ppl who play the game properly are happy???

h6 is best game of century???

15020

> 2535444186389095;15019:
> everyones always hating on spartan abilities in h5 like they ruin the gunplay where sprint is really what makes h5 gunplay to the point where it would really be a different game w/o it. wouldnt make sense for devs to remove it at this point bcs it would genuinely cause more problems than it would solve. this late into the games development cycle it just doesnt make sense
> as far as h6 is concerned… so long as the game runs on a well designed engine it can support some sort of sprint mechanic for casual gametypes w/o having to shoe-horn it onto the competitive playlist. the respective gamemodes and maps just need to be scaled to suit their player-mechanics and boom everyones happy.
>
> h6 has jetpacks, promethean vision, playable elites, sprint, spartan charge etc. to create the most saturated sandbox/expansive possible and all the forge kids/campaign nerds are happy???
>
> h6 competitive team doesnt try to force poorly designed AAA-game-trend-mechanics into HCS settings; instead focuses on making an actual halo title & all the ppl who play the game properly are happy???
>
> h6 is best game of century???

Except it doesn’t come down to just HCS. It changes the core of the entire game.

How are the maps created? Are they created around no-sprint or Sprint? Jetpacks or no Jetpacks?

How are the weapons created? Are they meant to hit Sprinting targets? are they meant to hit not Sprinting targets?

Unless we get a sandbox so finely tuned that we can change the very attributes of each individual weapon, at some point, one side of the game is going to have unbalanced settings, and those people won’t be happy.

15021

[deleted]

15022

> 2533274887665513;15021:
> Sprint objectively breaks Halo’s map design and weapon balancing on a fundamental level…

Yes. Sprint objectively would breaks those things in the games without it but not having sprint would break the games with it, minus Reach in some aspects, so its still a subjective opinion in the overall scope of the series.

15023

> 2533274887665513;15021:
> Oh my god this thread is still going! I’d love to refer to some of my old posts but I can’t remember what pages they are on. I’ll just do my bit to keep the thread going… Sprint objectively breaks Halo’s map design and weapon balancing on a fundamental level… Have a nice day!

Your first post in the thread: 7/7/2016

> 2533274887665513;2590:
> I’m tired of people saying “Halo needs to evolve”. First off, copying CoD is not a true evolution of Halo. Then people love to say sprint makes the game more fast paced yet there is plenty of evidence such as comparing the pace of Midship to Truth to show how maps scaled to sprint slow the game down. In Halo 1-3 the pace was determined by map design and not holding the run faster button. Older maps were smaller than they are now and without all these clunky movement animations, you could always shoot, throw grenades and melee without disruption. The ridiculously long jumps made possible by Halo 5’s movement mechanics can be fun to perform but they make it much harder for a map designer to control flow around a map without over-scaling. Consistent movement speed brings a higher level of predictability to engagements which makes them more competitive as it reduces the random elements that come in to play with inconsistent movement speeds. While everyone is entitled to an opinion, sprint does change halo significantly. There are so many arguments that have been made on this topic that I don’t want to regurgitate but before people say “sprint isn’t a big deal” they may want to look at it’s impact more critically. It’s worth noting that classic Halo is very much still in high demand as shown by the million that got MCC (a game plagued with so many issues that 343/Microsoft should be sued) and to say that Halo got old and needs to catch up with other shooters by copying them is a questionable argument.

Your last post before today: 4/30/2017

> 2533274887665513;14022:
> Is there anyone here with a month off work and absolutely no interests outside of reading these forums? If so, it would be great to consolidate all the pros and cons of sprint from the last 700 pages into one post so that everyone is clear on the argument when they go to post. While I think there would be a greater audience for a classic style game, Halo 5 presents a unique style of game play that could be fleshed out further and be its own thing one day. I don’t think it should be a mainline Halo as it does not respect the series identity whatsoever although in the same way that different spin-offs had you play as ODST’s or Spartan III’s maybe there could be a spin-off that continues the spartan IV’s H5 style movement system. I think mainline Halo’s should definitely respect the classic formula though.
>
> I hope everyone can get the game they truly want one day. All the best and good discussion guys! It’s really cool to see how much depth people can go into when they explain their points. I still think sprint is incompatible with classic Halo but if it were separated entirely from the main Halo experience, this new style would have more freedom to express itself without having to tie itself to the classic formula.

I thought you would be curious. You can always look at your posts from your profile.

15024

Here’s some stats about this thread from the last 750 pages:

  • 2133 people have contributed to this thread - 25% of all posts are from ten different users - Seven out of them have shown clear feelings against sprint, three have shown clear feelings in favor of sprint - 28 users have made more than 100 posts - The most prolific user has 851 posts in the threadThings get a bit strange once you start looking at the larger population. A significant number of people feel indifferent towards sprint. Another significant number never clearly stated their opinion in this thread. It also turns out that, generally speaking, deducing someone’s opinion from their posts is difficult unless they explicitly state it. With that in mind:

  • 61.8% of all posts from top 100 posters - 63 out of them have shown clear feelings against sprint, 27 have shown clear feelings in favor of sprint - Remaining users are either undecided or a clear opinion was not found - Out of all 2133 participants: 20.2% have shown clear feelings against sprint, and 56.8% have shown clear feelings in favor of sprint - Of the users with only one post in the thread: 14.7% have shown clear feelings against sprint, and 57.3% have shown clear feelings in favor of sprint - The average opponent of sprint has made 18 posts while the average supporter has made 5Finally, take all of this for what it is: some fun stats from this particular thread. How poorly or well it reflects the rest of the community? ¯_(ツ)_/¯

15025

> 2533274825830455;15024:
> Here’s some stats about this thread from the last 750 pages:
> - 2133 people have contributed to this thread - 25% of all posts are from ten different users - Seven out of them have shown clear feelings against sprint, three have shown clear feelings in favor of sprint - 28 users have made more than 100 posts - The most prolific user has 851 posts in the threadThings get a bit strange once you start looking at the larger population. A significant number of people feel indifferent towards sprint. Another significant number never clearly stated their opinion in this thread. It also turns out that, generally speaking, deducing someone’s opinion from their posts is difficult unless they explicitly state it. With that in mind:
> - 61.8% of all posts from top 100 posters - 63 out of them have shown clear feelings against sprint, 27 have shown clear feelings in favor of sprint - Remaining users are either undecided or a clear opinion was not found - Out of all 2133 participants: 20.2% have shown clear feelings against sprint, and 56.8% have shown clear feelings in favor of sprint - Of the users with only one post in the thread: 14.7% have shown clear feelings against sprint, and 57.3% have shown clear feelings in favor of sprint - The average opponent of sprint has made 18 posts while the average supporter has made 5Finally, take all of this for what it is: some fun stats from this particular thread. How poorly or well it reflects the rest of the community? ¯_(ツ)_/¯

Well the large difference in number of posts between pro sprint and anti sprint is pretty interesting. I think it shows that people who don’t like sprint don’t know exactly why they don’t want it in Halo. Where as the people who like sprint don’t exactly know why they want it in Halo other than it being “fun” or that it’s what a Spartan “Should Do”. Maybe people feel like they don’t need to defend Sprint since it’s in the Current games I’m not really sure why they wouldn’t explain why they like it