[deleted]
> 2535464451695009;14882:
> When we talk about Halo, we almost always talk about the general population, because they’re the ones who drive a franchise’s success. Microsoft is just providing us a service, though Bungie (before) and 343 Industries, and we, the general population, are the ones who decide if we still need this service. As of right now, the general population is showing that very little people want Halo. This thread is essentially, at its core, “How can we make people want Halo again?”
No we don’t. We often pretend to, but ultimately we’re all just pushing our own agenda and trying to convince others (not to mention ourselves) that Halo will be the most successful if it’s made exactly the way we want it. We project our own desires onto the vague “general population”, and interpret what little actual data we have as evidence that the general population agrees with our opinion to the point.
This thread is essentially, at its core, what I want versus what you want. I’ll be the first to admit that the popularity of Halo is secondary to my enjoyment. It makes little sense to me to support a direction the game is headed, no matter how popular, if it compromises my enjoyment of the game. An obscure game that I love to play holds much more value to me than a popular game I dislike.
I’ve said it before: the faster we understand what is subjective and what is objective in this discussion, and realize that we’re not trying to prove an objective fact, but to get others to understand our point of view, the better off we are.
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> > > > 2535416616313329;14880:
> > > > > 2533274833081329;14879:
> > > > > > 2535416616313329;14878:
> > > > > > No point in arguing with someone who dislikes loadouts. Loadouts are one of my favorite elements of Halo 4. They allow control over ones own spawn weapons. There is more variety and chaotic matches in Halo 4. That is what I like about it. Halo CE-3 feel to slow. Everything you said against loadouts is what I like. People can’t keep you from getting a DMR. If you’re worried someone else has a DMR, use the right loadouts. Jetpacks are awsome in BTB.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Halo peaked with Reach and 4. Halo 5 was decent except for the removal of loadouts. Equal spawns are overrated. Halo CE also had indestructible vehicles. Should indestructible vehicles be the standard for Halo? I’m not saying loadouts should be in every game mode. Maybe just BTB. Sprint is my least concern. If 343i removes sprints but adds faster BMS or something else, I’m fine with it.
> > > >
> > > > I don’t care if Halo is super competitive. I play Halo for relaxation and fun. I don’t care if Halo 3 was considered the best, if it isn’t fun for me. The entire planet can love Halo 3 and hate Halo 4, but it fails to convince me otherwise. It is very simple: I have tons of fun playing Halo 4, I get destroyed by poor matchmaking in Halo 3.
> > > >
> > > > I don’t think we are going to get anything more out of this discussion. We’re arguing about which game we have fun in. It’s entirely subjective.
>
> What’s good is completely subjective, but fans both casual and hardcore do expect certain aspects of the franchise to remain the same, as shown by the reaction to recent Call of Duty, Resident Evil, Street Fighter, and Grand Theft Auto titles. People were all like “CoD needs to remove jetpacks,” “RE needs to be scary,” “SF needs to be more difficult,” and “GTA needs to be less serious.”
The funny thing is that CoD fans say, “CoD is becoming Halo”. The Halo fans say, “Halo is becoming CoD”. Then there is me thinking, Halo is getting more “real” and CoD is becoming more “sci-fi”. I like the changes in both franchises, meeting in the middle. I want loadouts, jetpacks, and longer kill times. Yet, CoD and Halo fans want to remove jetpacks(and other abilities).
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> > > > 2535464451695009;14882:
> > > > > 2535416616313329;14880:
> > > > > > 2533274833081329;14879:
> > > > > > > 2535416616313329;14878:
> > > > > > > No point in arguing with someone who dislikes loadouts. Loadouts are one of my favorite elements of Halo 4. They allow control over ones own spawn weapons. There is more variety and chaotic matches in Halo 4. That is what I like about it. Halo CE-3 feel to slow. Everything you said against loadouts is what I like. People can’t keep you from getting a DMR. If you’re worried someone else has a DMR, use the right loadouts. Jetpacks are awsome in BTB.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Halo peaked with Reach and 4. Halo 5 was decent except for the removal of loadouts. Equal spawns are overrated. Halo CE also had indestructible vehicles. Should indestructible vehicles be the standard for Halo? I’m not saying loadouts should be in every game mode. Maybe just BTB. Sprint is my least concern. If 343i removes sprints but adds faster BMS or something else, I’m fine with it.
> > > > >
> > > > > I don’t care if Halo is super competitive. I play Halo for relaxation and fun. I don’t care if Halo 3 was considered the best, if it isn’t fun for me. The entire planet can love Halo 3 and hate Halo 4, but it fails to convince me otherwise. It is very simple: I have tons of fun playing Halo 4, I get destroyed by poor matchmaking in Halo 3.
> > > > >
> > > > > I don’t think we are going to get anything more out of this discussion. We’re arguing about which game we have fun in. It’s entirely subjective.
> > > >
> > > > I think this reasoning is why you feel like you’re not getting anywhere with your discussion. You’re completely shutting out people who have a different opinion than you, and want someone, even from a differing viewpoint, to affirm your opinion.
> > > >
> > > > When we talk about Halo, we almost always talk about the general population, because they’re the ones who drive a franchise’s success. Microsoft is just providing us a service, though Bungie (before) and 343 Industries, and we, the general population, are the ones who decide if we still need this service. As of right now, the general population is showing that very little people want Halo. This thread is essentially, at its core, “How can we make people want Halo again?”
> > >
> > > I apologize if I get a little worked up over Halo 4. It’s just that so many people complain about it, and it makes me feel as if I am the only one who enjoyed the play style. Halo 5 was influenced by the majority of the Halo community(which apparently isn’t me). I actually enjoy Halo 5, I just don’t want the community to (once again)remove the good aspects of Halo. I will get Halo 6 either way, because I enjoy all the Halo campaigns.
> > >
> > > People can dislike loadouts but please don’t tell me that everyone dislikes them. It feels to me like I’m being shutout for liking loadouts. As for sprint, I actually am okay with the idea of a Halo without sprint. Just for the chance to see if I could do decent in a classic style Halo(I missed out on the Halo 3 days).
> >
> > What’s good is completely subjective, but fans both casual and hardcore do expect certain aspects of the franchise to remain the same, as shown by the reaction to recent Call of Duty, Resident Evil, Street Fighter, and Grand Theft Auto titles. People were all like “CoD needs to remove jetpacks,” “RE needs to be scary,” “SF needs to be more difficult,” and “GTA needs to be less serious.”
>
> The funny thing is that CoD fans say, “CoD is becoming Halo”. The Halo fans say, “Halo is becoming CoD”. Then there is me thinking, Halo is getting more “real” and CoD is becoming more “sci-fi”. I like the changes in both franchises, meeting in the middle. I want loadouts, jetpacks, and longer kill times. Yet, CoD and Halo fans want to remove jetpacks(and other abilities).
Largely because they increase player skill gaps. If you don’t do just the right button combos at just the right time… You’re dead. This means a rank 150 can stomp rank 20s because he knows all of the button inputs. Not because he’s more skilled.
The Halo 3 game mode I play on Halo 3 is infinitely more fun than any of Halo 5’s game modes because the only thing seperating myself from my opponent is our skill levels. Not our knowledge of button inputs.
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> This means a rank 150 can stomp rank 20s because he knows all of the button inputs. Not because he’s more skilled.
How are these different? Is there any rational basis why knowing how to perform basic actions shouldn’t be considered as part of the skill set of the game?
Making the player memorize a bunch of sequences is certainly not the most effective use of the player’s mental capacity, but it’s a skill nonetheless. We can’t arbitrarily decide that something is not a skill just because we don’t like it. Any attribute of a player that makes them more likely to beat the other player should be considered a skill.
I feel like sprint is pretty important in halo 5, so they probably won’t remove it.
I really never cared for Sprint stopping shield recharge, especially in Warzone Firefight where player shields have the durability of a wet paper bag.
PvE gimped to cater to PvPers, that never sits well with me.
> 2533274825830455;14890:
> > 2533275031935123;14889:
> > This means a rank 150 can stomp rank 20s because he knows all of the button inputs. Not because he’s more skilled.
>
> How are these different? Is there any rational basis why knowing how to perform basic actions shouldn’t be considered as part of the skill set of the game?
>
> Making the player memorize a bunch of sequences is certainly not the most effective use of the player’s mental capacity, but it’s a skill nonetheless. We can’t arbitrarily decide that something is not a skill just because we don’t like it. Any attribute of a player that makes them more likely to beat the other player should be considered a skill.
Reminds me of a PC tactic. Type to the enemy, if they’re feeling chatty they’ll respond and you can go in an do damage.
Friends of mine fell for this in LoL.
> 2533275031935123;14889:
> Largely because they increase player skill gaps. If you don’t do just the right button combos at just the right time… You’re dead. This means a rank 150 can stomp rank 20s because he knows all of the button inputs. Not because he’s more skilled.
> The Halo 3 game mode I play on Halo 3 is infinitely more fun than any of Halo 5’s game modes because the only thing seperating myself from my opponent is our skill levels. Not our knowledge of button inputs.
A rank 150 is more likely to stomp a rank 20 because he’s played long enough to potentially know the button inputs. That isn’t a guarantee, the rank 20 could just be a good learner and know this from near the beginning.
And knowing button inputs and when to use them is a skill. Whether you call this a large skill or not is a different story, but it is still a skill.
Knowing when and where weapons would spawn is a skill as well, and that has very little input on the player at all.
The double-shot was the only combo that took some decent skill to pull off against players, and it was risky. The BXR and BXB were just cheap insta-kills. The only reason players sometimes failed at BXR was because of H2’s crappy melee detection, not because they weren’t skilled enough. A crippled cripple could perform a BXR.
> 2533274801973487;14833:
> > 2547348539238747;14827:
> > Halo Reach, H4, and H5 have all embraced a larger element of randomness and personal empowerment over a highly controllable arena and teamwork. That’s what makes the games more fun for lower skill/new players. It’s also what killed those games for the highly skilled, highly organised players. It’s also why you see players losing it when full teams and clans steam roll people on arena and warzone.
>
> I’M afraid you have something mixed up here, new Halo games are putting a lot less focus onto personal empowerment.
> personal empowerment is steadily decreasing since HCE. It starts with small things like team size (2v2 has a bigger emphasis on the singular player), and continues with stuff like sprint (it’s a lot easier to run away or rush to help a teammate despite bad positioning) and your starting weapon (a non-random utility weapon with a high delta between a slow average TTK and a fast perfect TTK let the individual shine rather then making “team-shooting” so overly effective) I’m not too sure about which order to put R-5 in but when you look at the OT, HCE has the biggest personal empowerment, followed by H2, followed by H3 and then it all goes down the drain…
No, that’s the skill gap that’s decreasing.
By personal empowerment I’m talking about focusing on K/D, personal unlock, personal loadouts, perks, drops, adding extras to the base player abilities rather than the map etc. All the changes that 343i added (and Bungie during Reach) was done to enhance the player’s perception of their character’s abilities. Rather than enhancing gameplay mechanics. That’s why you get so many banging on about “feeling like a Spartan”, instead of the benefits of the mechanics.
Granted, Halo CE had a huge skill gap and single players could dominate. The difference is between actually being effective, and the perception of such. Low skill players will never feel powerful in Halo CE, but that is why so many don’t like it. Where as from Reach, H4, H5 Destiny, and all games of the last decade or so has put more importance on making the player ‘feel’ strong, and the solo experience.
> 2547348539238747;14896:
> > 2533274801973487;14833:
> > > 2547348539238747;14827:
> > > Halo Reach, H4, and H5 have all embraced a larger element of randomness and personal empowerment over a highly controllable arena and teamwork. That’s what makes the games more fun for lower skill/new players. It’s also what killed those games for the highly skilled, highly organised players. It’s also why you see players losing it when full teams and clans steam roll people on arena and warzone.
> >
> > I’M afraid you have something mixed up here, new Halo games are putting a lot less focus onto personal empowerment.
> > personal empowerment is steadily decreasing since HCE. It starts with small things like team size (2v2 has a bigger emphasis on the singular player), and continues with stuff like sprint (it’s a lot easier to run away or rush to help a teammate despite bad positioning) and your starting weapon (a non-random utility weapon with a high delta between a slow average TTK and a fast perfect TTK let the individual shine rather then making “team-shooting” so overly effective) I’m not too sure about which order to put R-5 in but when you look at the OT, HCE has the biggest personal empowerment, followed by H2, followed by H3 and then it all goes down the drain…
>
> No, that’s the skill gap that’s decreasing.
>
> By personal empowerment I’m talking about focusing on K/D, personal unlock, personal loadouts, perks, drops, adding extras to the base player abilities rather than the map etc. All the changes that 343i added (and Bungie during Reach) was done to enhance the player’s perception of their character’s abilities. Rather than enhancing gameplay mechanics. That’s why you get so many banging on about “feeling like a Spartan”, instead of the benefits of the mechanics.
>
> Granted, Halo CE had a huge skill gap and single players could dominate. The difference is between actually being effective, and the perception of such. Low skill players will never feel powerful in Halo CE, but that is why so many don’t like it. Where as from Reach, H4, H5 Destiny, and all games of the last decade or so has put more importance on making the player ‘feel’ strong, and the solo experience.
I agreed with you, games like the new DOOM focus on the solo experience and making the player feel strong without really adding abilities besides the Glory kills.
> 2533274825830455;14890:
> > 2533275031935123;14889:
> > This means a rank 150 can stomp rank 20s because he knows all of the button inputs. Not because he’s more skilled.
>
> How are these different? Is there any rational basis why knowing how to perform basic actions shouldn’t be considered as part of the skill set of the game?
>
> Making the player memorize a bunch of sequences is certainly not the most effective use of the player’s mental capacity, but it’s a skill nonetheless. We can’t arbitrarily decide that something is not a skill just because we don’t like it. Any attribute of a player that makes them more likely to beat the other player should be considered a skill.
He’s probably never played a Fighting game before.
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> > > > 2533274802441922;14821:
> > > >
> > >
> > > If the future Halos remove sprint but keep the multiplayer enjoyable like 4, I will be fine with that too.
> >
> > Halo 4 had the worst performing MP out of all the Halo games, and sprint wasn’t the worst thing about the title either.
> >
> > Halo Reach, H4, and H5 have all embraced a larger element of randomness and personal empowerment over a highly controllable arena and teamwork. That’s what makes the games more fun for lower skill/new players. It’s also what killed those games for the highly skilled, highly organised players. It’s also why you see players losing it when full teams and clans steam roll people on arena and warzone.
> >
> > You say you are 21 and didn’t get xbl until 2016, so is it reasonable to assume you haven’t experienced Halo 2 and Halo 3 online during their haydays?, where the Matchmaking system did a very admirable job of dividing different skilled players based on their skill. It created even and fun matches. So rather than evening out the skill levels through MM, today’s games even out the skill levels through game mechanics. Today’s MM systems do not do anywhere near good enough to divide people based on skill. That’s why you see 50’s and platinums up against 10s and bronze. The only way to experience that sort of onesided-ness before would be to exploit the system.
>
> I have the opposite opinion about Halo 4. I have the most fun in Halo 4, and sprint isn’t the BEST thing added.
>
> I actually despise Warzone in Halo 5 because of clans steamrolling randoms. (2) My problem with older Halos is grenade jumping, crouch jumping, and button combos(aka, cheating). I never have used button combos and refuse to use BXR in Halo 2 because it is cheating. Halo 4 and Reach added abilities like jet packs. Halo 5 added clamber(which I approve of). These changes remove experienced players getting into camping spots that I can’t get to.
>
> I dont mind some randomness to account for low population but (1) why is the population low? I think we already discussed this earlier in this forum, but why is there no multiplayer games with the same population as Halo 3 did in 2007? Is sprint really the reason? Do most players prefer ultra competitive games?
> Maybe there is too many class based shooters like COD, Battlefield, and Halo 4/Reach. Though I think Halo 4 is a very unique game. I can’t find a game like Halo 4 anywhere else.
- Halo 4 didn’t start with a low population. People bought the game, played it, and left because they found it un-enjoyable. Much of the hype for Halo 4 was that it was a sequel to Halo 3. In name, in story, and in gameplay. When the game released and people realised that they had taken elements from Halo Reach, and elements from COD, and less from Halo 3, that was it, people left. After 10 years, and 4 games that don’t do the classic formula justice people have given up on Halo. In contrast you look at COD, BF, GTA Rainbow etc, all franchises around when Halo 3 launched, they are all doing fine. Either just as well or in cases, even better. Even with the added MP FPS franchises on the scene. Halo and Halo alone has suffered, and Halo alone has had the shift away from the elements it was known for.
Sprint alone isn’t the cause, but it’s definitely a left over symptom of that shift and is still a barrier to returning to the original vision.
- BxR was a glitch not a game mechanic, same with super jumping etc. That isn’t a problem with the classic game design, that’s an issue with bugs and the engine used. You can’t lump those in with AAs and Sprint, which are intended to be in the game. As for the rest, how is holding crouch an issue, but pressing sprint to move faster, or thrust to move or strafe, or holding A to climb, not an issue? What they’ve done is made you use 3 buttons and stick to do what 1 button and a stick could achieve in older titles. That’s more complexity without any added depth.
> 2533274822883564;14897:
> > 2547348539238747;14896:
> > > 2533274801973487;14833:
> > > > 2547348539238747;14827:
> > > > Halo Reach, H4, and H5 have all embraced a larger element of randomness and personal empowerment over a highly controllable arena and teamwork. That’s what makes the games more fun for lower skill/new players. It’s also what killed those games for the highly skilled, highly organised players. It’s also why you see players losing it when full teams and clans steam roll people on arena and warzone.
> > >
> > > I’M afraid you have something mixed up here, new Halo games are putting a lot less focus onto personal empowerment.
> > > personal empowerment is steadily decreasing since HCE. It starts with small things like team size (2v2 has a bigger emphasis on the singular player), and continues with stuff like sprint (it’s a lot easier to run away or rush to help a teammate despite bad positioning) and your starting weapon (a non-random utility weapon with a high delta between a slow average TTK and a fast perfect TTK let the individual shine rather then making “team-shooting” so overly effective) I’m not too sure about which order to put R-5 in but when you look at the OT, HCE has the biggest personal empowerment, followed by H2, followed by H3 and then it all goes down the drain…
> >
> > No, that’s the skill gap that’s decreasing.
> >
> > By personal empowerment I’m talking about focusing on K/D, personal unlock, personal loadouts, perks, drops, adding extras to the base player abilities rather than the map etc. All the changes that 343i added (and Bungie during Reach) was done to enhance the player’s perception of their character’s abilities. Rather than enhancing gameplay mechanics. That’s why you get so many banging on about “feeling like a Spartan”, instead of the benefits of the mechanics.
> >
> > Granted, Halo CE had a huge skill gap and single players could dominate. The difference is between actually being effective, and the perception of such. Low skill players will never feel powerful in Halo CE, but that is why so many don’t like it. Where as from Reach, H4, H5 Destiny, and all games of the last decade or so has put more importance on making the player ‘feel’ strong, and the solo experience.
>
> I agreed with you, games like the new DOOM focus on the solo experience and making the player feel strong without really adding abilities besides the Glory kills.
I mean yeah, but even then, iD tied the glory kills back to the aim of the game. The aim being to keep moving and be aggressive in playstyle. Performing a glory kill isn’t just pretty or superficial, it rewards the players by giving out health. It’s tied back to the gameplay. That is just good game design.
In contrast, assassinations in Halo reach (as cool as I thought they were) serve no purpose to the gameplay. A smash in the back was already fatal in classic Halo. Their inclusion in Reach was a superficial addition that did nothing but make you feel good for doing them.
I don’t think I have appeared on this thread yet (maybe I did a long time ago), but Halo is supposed to evolve with each title. In Halo: Reach, Bungie added sprint as an armor ability which could be swapped for a drop shield, active camo, and armor lock. That was balanced enough. Halo 4 was supposed to evolve as well, and the next logical step from Reach was incorporating sprint as a game mechanic. In Reach, several gamemodes let you choose predetermined loadouts, so the next logical step was incorporating loadouts that the players could customize. People say it is like CoD, but unlike other FPS games the loadouts were fairly balanced. No one loadout was significantly better than the next one.
Fans still complained, so 343 did revert back to equal starts, but Halo 5: Guardians would have to be called Halo 5: Combat Devolved if 343 simply removed armor abilities and sprint. So, they replaced them with Spartan Abilities, which I think are just fine except for Spartan Charge.
For the most part, I think that sprint is just fine. In multiplayer, it should be finite, so you can only sprint for 7 or 8 seconds before returning to walk speed. People should realize that sprint is not really used in combat situations unless one uses Spartan Charge, which I already mentioned is a problem. In Halo 5, running away from a gunfight is much more difficult. To address the argument that two movement speeds are not necessary, I’ll just point out that you cannot shoot a gun, recharge shields, throw grenades, etc. Simply increasing the movement speed will still allow for these things.
You know I’ve seen alot of back and forth on this topic and some of the posts have been rather interesting alot of it came off as the same old tired “Halo plays like this and this and can’t have this” argument.
I hate that argument. That argument will hold this series back from any meaningful evolution or change just so it can cater to a select group of people. Those competitive folks had sprint gimped for all game modes because they felt it messed up their PvP matches. Armor abilities across all modes were weakened to cater to PvPers.
That annoys the hell out of me. It annoys me that a developer can’t have a separation of balance changes or tweaks. It annoys me when PvE is hampered to cater to the PvP crowd.
What I would have done?
Sprinting would not stop your shields from recharging for one, applied to campaign and firefight sessions only. I would not hamper the feel of playing a super soldier just for competitive players’ sake.
Then I would have the PvP itself change. Select playlists would have certain Spartan abilities fully disabled, with the most hardcore playlists having no abilities enabled at all but rather default attributes like movement speed and shield recharge rate tweaked to compenate for map sizes. Come as close as one can to the “classic” game the competitive community cries for.
Playlist description text would state clearly and in no uncertain terms the changes and differences so players would know exactly what they’re jumping into.
Unranked playlists including warzone and the campaign would have fully powered Spartans ready to rip alien skulls from spines and toss em away laughing while giving other aliens a belly full of lead and a pool of their own blood to drown in.
Faster cooldown for thrusters, bigger AoE for ground pound, no shield recharge penalty for sprinting, more damage for charging, faster sprint speed etc etc.
[deleted]
Wow this is a long thread, if 343 don’t get the message then i think i may be concerned! In my opinion i don’t care about sprint, if they keep it or drop it then it won’t matter to me… on the other hand you can’t have spartan abilities without sprint so bye bye sprint it was nice knowing you 
> 2535460550943257;14901:
> I don’t think I have appeared on this thread yet (maybe I did a long time ago), but Halo is supposed to evolve with each title. In Halo: Reach, Bungie added sprint as an armor ability which could be swapped for a drop shield, active camo, and armor lock. That was balanced enough. Halo 4 was supposed to evolve as well, and the next logical step from Reach was incorporating sprint as a game mechanic. In Reach, several gamemodes let you choose predetermined loadouts, so the next logical step was incorporating loadouts that the players could customize. People say it is like CoD, but unlike other FPS games the loadouts were fairly balanced. No one loadout was significantly better than the next one.
>
> Fans still complained, so 343 did revert back to equal starts, but Halo 5: Guardians would have to be called Halo 5: Combat Devolved if 343 simply removed armor abilities and sprint. So, they replaced them with Spartan Abilities, which I think are just fine except for Spartan Charge.
This assumes there is only one way to “evolve”.
We already went backwards from Halo 4 to Halo 5. We removed Loadouts, Jetpack, kill cams, Ordnance, re-purposed Armor abilities into Spartan Abilities, and went back to equal starts.
So clearly going backwards isn’t always a bad idea.
And it’s also funny that people want Halo to “evolve”, but when other people want to change Halo 5, suddenly they don’t want it to evolve anymore.