The sprint discussion thread

Games Halo 5: Guardians
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> > > > > Straight up, if halo 6 doesn’t have sprint I wont buy it
> > > >
> > > > What, in terms of gameplay, makes Sprint so important that it become make-or-break to you?
> > > >
> > > > Genuine question.
> > >
> > > I’m not saying ill 100% get halo 6 if it has sprint, I probably would, but theres a 0% chance ill buy it if it is lacking sprint
> > >
> > > You cant go back that far in movement, sprint makes it more action packed. Its 2017, games need to have a running mechanic
> >
> > Action-packed how?
> >
> > What does “current year” have to do with this? Something like Gears of War I have a Sprinting mechanic in 2006. There are still games released recently that don’t have a Sprinting mechanic because they don’t benefit from it.
>
> action packed how? you get to the battles quicker. warzone without sprint wouldn’t work, it would be extremely slow. You die, and you can run towards combat, get there much quicker than if youre walking

After reading a lot of this thread the past few weeks i feel like i understand both sides of the argument fairly well and since i only prefer sprint for personal reasons i can go either way. Sprint helps you get to the action if the maps are larger. Take Haven vs Guardian. Halo 4 and 3’s best maps in my opinion. You are ALWAYS in the action in Guardian because its a small map compaired to R-5 arena maps. In Haven you need to sprint to find the action sometimes. Keep in mind i do like 343’s map design better and i personally like the mechanic for lore reasons so i side with Haven being my favorite map in the franchise but you really need to have an open mind and understand their points also.

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> > > Straight up, if halo 6 doesn’t have sprint I wont buy it
> >
> > What, in terms of gameplay, makes Sprint so important that it become make-or-break to you?
> >
> > Genuine question.
>
> I’m not saying ill 100% get halo 6 if it has sprint, I probably would, but theres a 0% chance ill buy it if it is lacking sprint
>
> You cant go back that far in movement, sprint makes it more action packed. Its 2017, games need to have a running mechanic

Oh my God… Do people actually think this is a legitimate reason to keep Sprint in the game? You really think sprinting around elongated maps is more action-packed?

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> > > > > Straight up, if halo 6 doesn’t have sprint I wont buy it
> > > >
> > > > What, in terms of gameplay, makes Sprint so important that it become make-or-break to you?
> > > >
> > > > Genuine question.
> > >
> > > I’m not saying ill 100% get halo 6 if it has sprint, I probably would, but theres a 0% chance ill buy it if it is lacking sprint
> > >
> > > You cant go back that far in movement, sprint makes it more action packed. Its 2017, games need to have a running mechanic
> >
> > You can go back. I personally hope they dont but they absolutely can and make it work. Will it increase sales and player retention? Probably not. Ill buy it either way. I love Halo.
>
> Why would they want to go back and lose players? that makes literally no sense. theyre a business and if they go back they may not have the $ they need to keep going.
>
> If they go back to halo 3 movement for halo 6, they may not have the $ to make a halo 7

“May”. But do you have any evidence to suggest that a Halo game without sprint would be less popular than Halo 5? What you’re saying is pure, unfounded speculation. For all we know, ditching sprint could make Halo more popular, or, most likely, it could have no significant effect one way or the other.

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Sprint is just one problem out of many. I don’t think just getting rid of sprint will bring the population back.

14730

I like sprint, what wrong with that?

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> I like sprint, what wrong with that?

Nothing wrong with that.
People are just going to challenge any statements and arguments you bring with your opinion.

For instance, like saying the game becomes more action packed.

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> Sprint is just one problem out of many. I don’t think just getting rid of sprint will bring the population back.

No one’s suggesting that.

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> I like sprint, what wrong with that?

Nothing. It’s just doesn’t mesh well with a game like Halo.

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> I like sprint, what wrong with that?

Nothing. It meshes perfectly with a game like Halo. Some people just dont like it and thier opinions and arguments are valid also, you have to understand that.

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I’m not here to argue about it, just wanted to drop my opinion incase 343 actually looks at this thread

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> No one’s suggesting that.

I was responding to tssasi’s entire post and the quoted text that was above my response which you can see that’s what they were talking about.

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> > No one’s suggesting that.
>
> I was responding to tssasi’s entire post and the quoted text that was above my response which you can see that’s what they were talking about.

Yes, they were, but that was because one of them claimed that Halo 6 might do worse than Halo 5 without Sprint being implemented into the game, and he hadn’t offered anything to support that claim. You don’t see many people saying the opposite; it’s usually “Sprint is an integral part of modern FPS games, now, so all games should have Sprint, or they will not succeed”.

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Meh, I think we’re both correct since I did misread part of the conversation, but the other parts were talking about removing sprint and its possible effect on population.

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> > > > > > > > Well, so far, it hasn’t worked out for those three games. What makes you think it will work in the next installment?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I’d say it was used well in Reach as an ability with a cooldown. Halo 4 did it okayish because it wasn’t infinite sprint (ignoring the simple run-sprint-jump move that allowed infinite sprint)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Reach’s Sprint - elongated maps, inability to fire your gun while sprinting, a “get-out-of-jail” card.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Halo 4’s Sprint - elongated maps, inability to fire your gun while sprinting, a “get-out-of-jail” card.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > See a pattern, here? Sprint wasn’t implemented well in Reach, and it certainly wasn’t “okayish” in Halo 4. The problem with Halo 5’s Sprint isn’t only that it’s infinite, it’s the fact that it’s been proven three times, now, that Sprint fundamentally changes the core gameplay of Halo. It gives people the illusion that the game is sped up, it slows down the TTK, it disrupts the map flow… Should I go on?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > However, I get tons of kills because people sprint everywhere with there guns unable to be at the ready. You still have to use it strategically to a small degree.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There isn’t any strategy in knowing when to “not Sprint” because it’s a basic, common sense.
> > > > >
> > > > > Alright man. I see your points. All im saying is that reach implemented it the best out of the 3. It also takes strategy to use any game mechanic effectively. Most of the time people dont use it as a get out of jail free card, and instead as a speedy way into a battle and die quick. I agree with your points that it disrupts map flow and speed and i even believe it should be fixed or taken out too. Im not a sprint supporter, i barely use it in fact. I was just pointing out that Reach used it the best so far, and that many use it ineffectively anyways.
> > > >
> > > > I would agree with Reach’s Sprint being the best iteration… except not everyone chose Sprint as an AA and were automatically put at a disadvantage in terms of movement. Not to mention that it wasn’t even nerfed. At all. I’d openly place Sprint in Reach as the best if it wasn’t so unbalanced.
> > > >
> > > > I’m not going to rely on anecdotal evidence by stating how many times I’ve seen people exploit Sprint as a “get-out-of-jail” card, because I don’t think you would deny that Sprint allows players to get out of situations which would most certainly kill them if Sprint wasn’t in the game, or at least makes it easier for them to do so. Whether or not it takes strategy is moot, because “strategy” is not a single-definable term.
> > >
> > > Also, i have a question. How do you feel about sprint now where it stops shield regen? Do like that or no?
> >
> > It discourages players using Sprint to escape, which is a step in the right direction on paper, but it is not as effective in-game. While players escaping is less of a problem, it still is a problem, nonetheless.
> >
> > Over the years, others have pointed out that a “De-sprint” could be implemented to balance out Sprint. I think that is a better approach to nerfing Sprint; it would be similar to De-scope - it would stop players from Sprinting after they were shot. I’m not sure how this would work, but it’s worth a try.
>
> I’ve had a solution to sprint knocking around in my head for years now. Really simple.
>
> Tie Sprint to Shields. If you have anything less than full shield, you can not sprint. It stops players sprinting out from a firefight, and if they have hidden long enough to recharge shield then they have earned the right to sprint again. It stops players delaying their shield recharge by sprinting, or sprinting to recharge them. Essentially still has a “de-sprint” effect. Doesn’t stop players sprinting back in to the action when they spawn. Doesn’t need to be time limited. Really simple to understand function, and doesn’t need yet another bar on the screen.
>
> Originally I devised this idea with the mechanic actually using Shields as energy and depleting Shield as it’s used, but even without that it’s a better system. Still not perfect, but better.

I think this is a very cool solution. Anyone remember in halo 4 when cortana uses chiefs shields to power an infinite boost on the ghost run? Maybe this could be a similar concept. I love this idea.

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> > > No one’s suggesting that.
> >
> > I was responding to tssasi’s entire post and the quoted text that was above my response which you can see that’s what they were talking about.
>
> Yes, they were, but that was because one of them claimed that Halo 6 might do worse than Halo 5 without Sprint being implemented into the game, and he hadn’t offered anything to support that claim. You don’t see many people saying the opposite; it’s usually “Sprint is an integral part of modern FPS games, now, so all games should have Sprint, or they will not succeed”.

Ill argue the other side in an attempt to even out the debate. Halo R-5 lost a lot of fans. Some of which are people that will not play Halo with sprint. Those fans are gone. The people that stuck around either like other aspects of the games or tollerate it enough to keep playing. At this point it is expected by most people that play Halo for sprint to be in the game wether they like the feature or not. Be it because of modern trends or maybe because the past 3 games have had it. 343 already knows what the market looks like with sprint in. At this point taking it out may be a huge gamble because of the people that follow trends or like Halo better with sprint may stop playing. Who knows how much of the population they make up. Lets also forget about Doom. People bring it and its success up a lot and it really doesnt have any place in this discussion if youre talking about balancing the multiplayer. Everything thats been praised about Doom has been about its single player. Imo the multiplayer was terrible. Going back to the topic, 343 may not take it out because they dont know how a market would respond to old school Halo over 10 years after the fact.

Again. This was essentially me playing the devils advocate to provide you with an argument for the reasons youre asking. Its more of an argument about the current market and reasoning why 343 would keep sprint for fear of the unknown rather than gameplay balancing. I love all of the games it just so happens that my favorite has sprint. On another personal note, if they do remove sprint i hope they keep other aspects of enhanced mobility for the campaign. Having that level of mobility and then just removing it would be very jarring in my opinion.

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> > > > No one’s suggesting that.
> > >
> > > I was responding to tssasi’s entire post and the quoted text that was above my response which you can see that’s what they were talking about.
> >
> > Yes, they were, but that was because one of them claimed that Halo 6 might do worse than Halo 5 without Sprint being implemented into the game, and he hadn’t offered anything to support that claim. You don’t see many people saying the opposite; it’s usually “Sprint is an integral part of modern FPS games, now, so all games should have Sprint, or they will not succeed”.
>
> Ill argue the other side in an attempt to even out the debate. Halo R-5 lost a lot of fans. Some of which are people that will not play Halo with sprint. Those fans are gone. The people that stuck around either like other aspects of the games or tollerate it enough to keep playing. At this point it is expected by most people that play Halo for sprint to be in the game wether they like the feature or not. Be it because of modern trends or maybe because the past 3 games have had it. 343 already knows what the market looks like with sprint in. At this point taking it out may be a huge gamble because of the people that follow trends or like Halo better with sprint may stop playing. Who knows how much of the population they make up. Lets also forget about Doom. People bring it and its success up a lot and it really doesnt have any place in this discussion if youre talking about balancing the multiplayer. Everything thats been praised about Doom has been about its single player. Imo the multiplayer was terrible. Going back to the topic, 343 may not take it out because they dont know how a market would respond to old school Halo over 10 years after the fact.
>
> Again. This was essentially me playing the devils advocate to provide you with an argument for the reasons youre asking. Its more of an argument about the current market and reasoning why 343 would keep sprint for fear of the unknown rather than gameplay balancing. I love all of the games it just so happens that my favorite has sprint. On another personal note, if they do remove sprint i hope they keep other aspects of enhanced mobility for the campaign. Having that level of mobility and then just removing it would be very jarring in my opinion.

It was
Customizable loadouts, two weapon system, random Massive Demon power ups and one time use special perks.
Doom was praised for its single player gameplay, which is fast and hectic.
However, why is it brought up a lot?
Because there are people who come along and say gameplay would be slow without sprint.

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> > > > No one’s suggesting that.
> > >
> > > I was responding to tssasi’s entire post and the quoted text that was above my response which you can see that’s what they were talking about.
> >
> > Yes, they were, but that was because one of them claimed that Halo 6 might do worse than Halo 5 without Sprint being implemented into the game, and he hadn’t offered anything to support that claim. You don’t see many people saying the opposite; it’s usually “Sprint is an integral part of modern FPS games, now, so all games should have Sprint, or they will not succeed”.
>
> Ill argue the other side in an attempt to even out the debate. Halo R-5 lost a lot of fans. Some of which are people that will not play Halo with sprint. Those fans are gone. The people that stuck around either like other aspects of the games or tollerate it enough to keep playing. At this point it is expected by most people that play Halo for sprint to be in the game wether they like the feature or not. Be it because of modern trends or maybe because the past 3 games have had it. 343 already knows what the market looks like with sprint in. At this point taking it out may be a huge gamble because of the people that follow trends or like Halo better with sprint may stop playing. Who knows how much of the population they make up. Lets also forget about Doom. People bring it and its success up a lot and it really doesnt have any place in this discussion if youre talking about balancing the multiplayer. Everything thats been praised about Doom has been about its single player. Imo the multiplayer was terrible. Going back to the topic, 343 may not take it out because they dont know how a market would respond to old school Halo over 10 years after the fact.

This is basically saying “because we’ve changed once, it’s too scary to change again.” Shouldn’t they be having that conversation way before Halo 4 and (especially) Halo 5 came out? That they were taking a huge gamble by pushing the community they had out the way so the can get a new community that likes different stuff?

That’s like, word for word why Halo 4 fell apart. They heavily catered to grabbing those playing Call of Duty, so they added a lot of elements commonly seen in Call of Duty (such as universal Sprint), and that backfired really hard. So they (eventually) stemmed the bleeding through the weapon tuning update and Legendary gametypes. It’s not like 343i didn’t see that people didn’t want Sprint, they’re the ones who created NSNB Reach!

343i whiplashed from that so hard that they undid most of those elements for Halo 5. Remember Loadouts, how much people “loved” them? People probably thought the same thing that people think about Sprint right now, and now its removed.

And the biggest thing is, no one wants to remove Sprint and just leave it there. Of course the game would feel slow. People want to remove Sprint and increase the base Speed as a result. No one has a problem with Speed Boost, why not have something similar to Speed Boost…all the time?

And it’s not like the market is unexplored territory.

Overwatch - an “old school” class-based arena shooter
DOOM - “old school” movement
Cuphead - “old school” run and gun

Call of Duty WWI and Battlefield 1 “going back to its roots” (kinda) by having more historic events instead of pushing into the future.
One of Halo 5’s biggest marketing push was multiplayer is going back to its “roots.”

No one brings up DOOM’s multiplayer because DOOM was never known for its multiplayer, it was known for its singleplayer; and widely praised for its singleplayer. DOOM’s multiplayer had multiple problems.

Sprint and the success of the game aren’t directly proportional, especially since it depends on how the gameplay works in the first place.

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> I’ve had a solution to sprint knocking around in my head for years now. Really simple.
>
> Tie Sprint to Shields. If you have anything less than full shield, you can not sprint. It stops players sprinting out from a firefight, and if they have hidden long enough to recharge shield then they have earned the right to sprint again. It stops players delaying their shield recharge by sprinting, or sprinting to recharge them. Essentially still has a “de-sprint” effect. Doesn’t stop players sprinting back in to the action when they spawn. Doesn’t need to be time limited. Really simple to understand function, and doesn’t need yet another bar on the screen.
>
> Originally I devised this idea with the mechanic actually using Shields as energy and depleting Shield as it’s used, but even without that it’s a better system. Still not perfect, but better.

As someone who already dislikes H5’s implementation of sprint, I think this would be terrible. I find the whole idea of sacrificing health for movement completely asinine in a game where you’re expected to always be moving. Sure, players won’t be escaping encounters as much, but the shield punishment affects more than just defensive use. It also punishes anyone who gets into gun battles regularly since most of the time you’ll come out of an encounter with half shields or lower. You’re put at a positional disadvantage because you chose to engage players. Now a lot of people might be thinking “You just need to wait some seconds before you can sprint again, no big deal”, but then consider how many engagements take place during a single match and you’ll find that this limitation is signficantly compounded.

On the flip side, let’s say a player decides to sprint anyway. He just won an encounter and is half shields, but rockets is coming up. He’ll be there in time to contest rockets, but he’s now at a health disadvantage because he made, on all counts, an entirely sensible decision.

It just doesn’t make sense to me. Designing maps around sprint speed and then punishing players for wanting to move around them efficiently.

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> > > No one’s suggesting that.
> >
> > I was responding to tssasi’s entire post and the quoted text that was above my response which you can see that’s what they were talking about.
>
> Yes, they were, but that was because one of them claimed that Halo 6 might do worse than Halo 5 without Sprint being implemented into the game, and he hadn’t offered anything to support that claim. You don’t see many people saying the opposite; it’s usually “Sprint is an integral part of modern FPS games, now, so all games should have Sprint, or they will not succeed”.

my reasoning is that halo 5 already has such a low player base, that when you take away the people who wont buy a halo 6 without sprint, it will scrape the bottom of the barrel for sales

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> > > > No one’s suggesting that.
> > >
> > > I was responding to tssasi’s entire post and the quoted text that was above my response which you can see that’s what they were talking about.
> >
> > Yes, they were, but that was because one of them claimed that Halo 6 might do worse than Halo 5 without Sprint being implemented into the game, and he hadn’t offered anything to support that claim. You don’t see many people saying the opposite; it’s usually “Sprint is an integral part of modern FPS games, now, so all games should have Sprint, or they will not succeed”.
>
> my reasoning is that halo 5 already has such a low player base, that when you take away the people who wont buy a halo 6 without sprint, it will scrape the bottom of the barrel for sales

I disagree with this reasoning. If the possibility of players unwilling to buy Halo 6 without Sprint has a large effect on the game’s sales, then the possibility of old-school Halo players returning to Halo because the next game doesn’t have Sprint will also have about the same level of effectiveness on sales. Sprint is one of the reasons why many Halo players abandoned the series, and I’m not implying that not having Sprint in the game is going to bring them back, but Sprint is a huge game-changer for Halo’s Arena-styled formula.

14745

Imagine sprinting as it is in Halo 5.

Now imagine that it’s activated not by a button anymore, but by the movement stick being pushed fully forward in whatever direction you’re moving.

Now imagine all limitations removed. You can jump while sprinting, turn as quickly, shoot, throw grenades, and of course “sprint” backwards.

At this point, your probably wondering, “How does this make sense graphically? Arm movement from sprinting while shooting? Sprinting backwards?”

That’s it. That’s the one obstacle in the way of the absolute best resolution to the sprint debate. If you can make it make sense graphically, you both solve the “It feels slow” problem of classic gameplay and the bad gameplay consequences of new Halo gameplay. The game will feel like it contains newer Halo movement but doesn’t. That’s what needs to happen, I believe.

I’m open to disagreement, but I have believed this strongly for a while now.