The sprint discussion thread

Games Halo 5: Guardians
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> > > I am just going to point out that there have been two polls I have seen where abiities and sprint are favored among the Halo community. In fairness, one was after the beta, but only 11% disliked sprinting. I feel like these polls aren’t referenced enough, because clearly anti-sprint is a very vocal minority. I am sure the majority of Halo players preferring the mechanic means nothing, right?
> >
> > Here’s the thing about surveys and polls; they can say and “prove” anything that the creator of said survey wants, from who they’re given to to how the questions themselves are worded. And this isn’t assuming that the creators are lying about the results at all. Remember when Breakout was “widely popular” by the community, specifically pros?
> >
> > Case in point, you said those polls were opinions gathered by the Halo community. The current (then) Halo community. The people who clearly stuck through and played the newer Halos and follow Halo news by 343i. And even then, not absolutely everyone, just a sample size that may or may not be big enough. I was part of the beta but never received a survey, and I am much more active to Halo than the average user.
> >
> > So if the poll was taken on Waypoint, right then and there, that’s a section of a very small community and is biased already, because the majority of people who regularly come to Waypoint agree with 343i’s decisions in the first place.
> >
> > But the biggest problem is: What about the people who simply don’t like Halo anymore, and therefore don’t follow it? If they were upset enough about what happened to the franchise, they wouldn’t buy Halo 5, they wouldn’t visit Waypoint, they wouldn’t follow YouTubers that play current Halo, they probably don’t have MCC, and on some occasions they probably don’t have an Xbox anymore.
> >
> > *“We asked this place full of current Halo fans if they liked current Halo and a wide majority said yes!”*Well of course they did, they’re still there. The people that don’t like current Halo wouldn’t be on the forums of current Halo.
> >
> > It’s like going to Halo 4’s forums and going “Hey was Halo 4 a good game?” The people there would obviously say yes, because that’s where Halo 4 fans tend to hang out, not the people who disliked Halo 4.
> >
> > It’s not only about who’s there, it’s about who’s not there.
>
> I understand that polls aren’t representative of the entire community, and can sometimes be misleading. However, you are just filling in gaps of information with theory, instead of acknowledging that at a point in time where Halo 5 had a larger player base, a majority liked sprint. The alternative view would be to disregard what the majority of current players want in exchange to gamble with the idea that this mechanic is also what is causing no one to play the game. Polls are in no way a definitive portrait, but they should not just be disregarded entirely. Literally each one I found favored sprint.

They shouldn’t be disregarded, but they shouldn’t be held to a matter of fact as well, because it could easily not be a majority at all, just the majority of people who participated in the poll.

If you made a poll at the tail end of Halo 4’s lifespan if they liked Halo 4, the majority would say yes. But it doesn’t take into account the hundreds of thousands of people that left probably because they didn’t like Halo 4. In this case, that poll was made at the tail end of Halo’s (the franchise) lifespan, about 4 years of having Sprint.

And like someone else said: “Do you like Sprint?” or “How much do you like Sprint?” doesn’t ask the whole question. Look at how many people like Sprint because they really want to go faster, without realizing there’s more than one way to go faster. Is removing the mechanic against the wishes of the poll such a bad thing when it’s replaced by an equal mechanic?

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> > > I am just going to point out that there have been two polls I have seen where abiities and sprint are favored among the Halo community. In fairness, one was after the beta, but only 11% disliked sprinting. I feel like these polls aren’t referenced enough, because clearly anti-sprint is a very vocal minority. I am sure the majority of Halo players preferring the mechanic means nothing, right?
> >
> > PS: That “what the majority wants” talk holds only so much water for you. Given enough changes based on majority interests, even you’ll quit at some point. Meaning, even without you saying a word, you’re not content with what the majority wants.
> > Because I seriously believe you’re here talking against your own self interests. I certainly am not.
>
> I have no idea what that is supposed to mean.

You skipped everything else to reply to this part??

Okay. Let me explain.

You’re basically saying that what the majority wants, the majority should get.
Unless you are the Majority, this will at some point go against your own interests in how you think Halo should play.

I seriously doubt you are here speaking for what the majority wants, and then not wanting it yourself.

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> > > > I am just going to point out that there have been two polls I have seen where abiities and sprint are favored among the Halo community. In fairness, one was after the beta, but only 11% disliked sprinting. I feel like these polls aren’t referenced enough, because clearly anti-sprint is a very vocal minority. I am sure the majority of Halo players preferring the mechanic means nothing, right?
> >
> > I understand that polls aren’t representative of the entire community, and can sometimes be misleading. However, you are just filling in gaps of information with theory, instead of acknowledging that at a point in time where Halo 5 had a larger player base, a majority liked sprint. The alternative view would be to disregard what the majority of current players want in exchange to gamble with the idea that this mechanic is also what is causing no one to play the game. Polls are in no way a definitive portrait, but they should not just be disregarded entirely. Literally each one I found favored sprint.
>
> They shouldn’t be disregarded, but they shouldn’t be held to a matter of fact as well, because it could easily not be a majority at all, just the majority of people who participated in the poll.
>
> If you made a poll at the tail end of Halo 4’s lifespan if they liked Halo 4, the majority would say yes. But it doesn’t take into account the hundreds of thousands of people that left probably because they didn’t like Halo 4. In this case, that poll was made at the tail end of Halo’s (the franchise) lifespan, about 4 years of having Sprint.
>
> And like someone else said: “Do you like Sprint?” or “How much do you like Sprint?” doesn’t ask the whole question. Look at how many people like Sprint because they really want to go faster, without realizing there’s more than one way to go faster. Is removing the mechanic against the wishes of the poll such a bad thing when it’s replaced by an equal mechanic?

I don’t really care about people’s reasons for liking sprint, just that they said that they liked sprint. This conversation for me isn’t about what is objectively the better mechanic, but that given the information that 343 has acquired, it would be stupid to remove sprint. You are probably completely right, but the poll results still indicate that most Halo 5 players at one point preferred sprint. Maybe the results would be different now, but I couldn’t find any polls that indicated otherwise.

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> > > > I am just going to point out that there have been two polls I have seen where abiities and sprint are favored among the Halo community. In fairness, one was after the beta, but only 11% disliked sprinting. I feel like these polls aren’t referenced enough, because clearly anti-sprint is a very vocal minority. I am sure the majority of Halo players preferring the mechanic means nothing, right?
> > >
> > > PS: That “what the majority wants” talk holds only so much water for you. Given enough changes based on majority interests, even you’ll quit at some point. Meaning, even without you saying a word, you’re not content with what the majority wants.
> > > Because I seriously believe you’re here talking against your own self interests. I certainly am not.
> >
> > I have no idea what that is supposed to mean.
>
> You skipped everything else to reply to this part??
>
> Okay. Let me explain.
>
> You’re basically saying that what the majority wants, the majority should get.
> Unless you are the Majority, this will at some point go against your own interests in how you think Halo should play.
>
> I seriously doubt you are here speaking for what the majority wants, and then not wanting it yourself.

I didn’t see the rest of it as information that was necessary to address. According to all data I can find, I am. Again, I can’t speak for the current landscape, only the ones I could find from over a year ago.

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> > > > > I am just going to point out that there have been two polls I have seen where abiities and sprint are favored among the Halo community. In fairness, one was after the beta, but only 11% disliked sprinting. I feel like these polls aren’t referenced enough, because clearly anti-sprint is a very vocal minority. I am sure the majority of Halo players preferring the mechanic means nothing, right?
> > >
> > > I understand that polls aren’t representative of the entire community, and can sometimes be misleading. However, you are just filling in gaps of information with theory, instead of acknowledging that at a point in time where Halo 5 had a larger player base, a majority liked sprint. The alternative view would be to disregard what the majority of current players want in exchange to gamble with the idea that this mechanic is also what is causing no one to play the game. Polls are in no way a definitive portrait, but they should not just be disregarded entirely. Literally each one I found favored sprint.
> >
> > They shouldn’t be disregarded, but they shouldn’t be held to a matter of fact as well, because it could easily not be a majority at all, just the majority of people who participated in the poll.
> >
> > If you made a poll at the tail end of Halo 4’s lifespan if they liked Halo 4, the majority would say yes. But it doesn’t take into account the hundreds of thousands of people that left probably because they didn’t like Halo 4. In this case, that poll was made at the tail end of Halo’s (the franchise) lifespan, about 4 years of having Sprint.
> >
> > And like someone else said: “Do you like Sprint?” or “How much do you like Sprint?” doesn’t ask the whole question. Look at how many people like Sprint because they really want to go faster, without realizing there’s more than one way to go faster. Is removing the mechanic against the wishes of the poll such a bad thing when it’s replaced by an equal mechanic?
>
> I don’t really care about people’s reasons for liking sprint, just that they said that they liked sprint. This conversation for me isn’t about what is objectively the better mechanic, but that given the information that 343 has acquired, it would be stupid to remove sprint. You are probably completely right, but the poll results still indicate that most Halo 5 players at one point preferred sprint. Maybe the results would be different now, but I couldn’t find any polls that indicated otherwise.

That really all depends on where the information was gathered. Polls can easily find conflicting results.

Here’s a poll with ~250 people that preferred Sprint in early 2015 (shortly before the H5 Beta)

Here’s a different poll with ~200 people that overwhelmingly didn’t prefer Sprint even further before the beta. Of course this one is super biased too, just in the other direction.

Here’s a poll from Reddit with almost 2000 people that also didn’t prefer Sprint.

And also apparently there’s a video where a 343i member put up a poll, and they overwhelmingly didn’t prefer Sprint.

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> > > > > > I am just going to point out that there have been two polls I have seen where abiities and sprint are favored among the Halo community. In fairness, one was after the beta, but only 11% disliked sprinting. I feel like these polls aren’t referenced enough, because clearly anti-sprint is a very vocal minority. I am sure the majority of Halo players preferring the mechanic means nothing, right?
> > > >
> > > > I understand that polls aren’t representative of the entire community, and can sometimes be misleading. However, you are just filling in gaps of information with theory, instead of acknowledging that at a point in time where Halo 5 had a larger player base, a majority liked sprint. The alternative view would be to disregard what the majority of current players want in exchange to gamble with the idea that this mechanic is also what is causing no one to play the game. Polls are in no way a definitive portrait, but they should not just be disregarded entirely. Literally each one I found favored sprint.
> > >
> > > They shouldn’t be disregarded, but they shouldn’t be held to a matter of fact as well, because it could easily not be a majority at all, just the majority of people who participated in the poll.
> > >
> > > If you made a poll at the tail end of Halo 4’s lifespan if they liked Halo 4, the majority would say yes. But it doesn’t take into account the hundreds of thousands of people that left probably because they didn’t like Halo 4. In this case, that poll was made at the tail end of Halo’s (the franchise) lifespan, about 4 years of having Sprint.
> > >
> > > And like someone else said: “Do you like Sprint?” or “How much do you like Sprint?” doesn’t ask the whole question. Look at how many people like Sprint because they really want to go faster, without realizing there’s more than one way to go faster. Is removing the mechanic against the wishes of the poll such a bad thing when it’s replaced by an equal mechanic?
> >
> > I don’t really care about people’s reasons for liking sprint, just that they said that they liked sprint. This conversation for me isn’t about what is objectively the better mechanic, but that given the information that 343 has acquired, it would be stupid to remove sprint. You are probably completely right, but the poll results still indicate that most Halo 5 players at one point preferred sprint. Maybe the results would be different now, but I couldn’t find any polls that indicated otherwise.
>
> That really all depends on where the information was gathered. Polls can easily find conflicting results.
>
> Here’s a poll with ~250 people that preferred Sprint in early 2015 (shortly before the H5 Beta)
>
> Here’s a different poll with ~200 people that overwhelmingly didn’t prefer Sprint even further before the beta. Of course this one is super biased too, just in the other direction.
>
> Here’s a poll from Reddit with almost 2000 people that also didn’t prefer Sprint.
>
> And also apparently there’s a video where a 343i member put up a poll, and they overwhelmingly didn’t prefer Sprint.

That is fair. I did not see those polls for some reason. Way to take all of the wind out of my keyboard warrior sails.

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> > > > > I am just going to point out that there have been two polls I have seen where abiities and sprint are favored among the Halo community. In fairness, one was after the beta, but only 11% disliked sprinting. I feel like these polls aren’t referenced enough, because clearly anti-sprint is a very vocal minority. I am sure the majority of Halo players preferring the mechanic means nothing, right?
> > > >
> > > > PS: That “what the majority wants” talk holds only so much water for you. Given enough changes based on majority interests, even you’ll quit at some point. Meaning, even without you saying a word, you’re not content with what the majority wants.
> > > > Because I seriously believe you’re here talking against your own self interests. I certainly am not.
> > >
> > > I have no idea what that is supposed to mean.
> >
> > You skipped everything else to reply to this part??
> >
> > Okay. Let me explain.
> >
> > You’re basically saying that what the majority wants, the majority should get.
> > Unless you are the Majority, this will at some point go against your own interests in how you think Halo should play.
> >
> > I seriously doubt you are here speaking for what the majority wants, and then not wanting it yourself.
>
> I didn’t see the rest of it as information that was necessary to address. According to all data I can find, I am. Again, I can’t speak for the current landscape, only the ones I could find from over a year ago.

So you reference a poll which falls in your favour, asking why it isn’t referenced more, yet when it gets discussed why it isn’t referenced more, and issues overall with polls, it’s uneccessary data?

Is it too easy to dismiss because it falls in your favour?

Vegeto here linked to a few other polls, and there are way more than that from before which are in favour of no-sprint.
There was even a “larger” one asking about Sprint and Flinch, in which I think roughly 80% were against sprint, quite some time before the Halo 5 beta. Think it was 3 000 participants.

If i343 wanted a specific result out of that poll, asking questions in a specific way nudges that result towards their end goal.

“Do you like having to press a thumbstick to increase your forward speed by X% at the cost of your offense and defense capabilities?”

Would most likely have seen an entirely different result than:

“Do you like sprinting in Halo?”

As I said:
Which do you prefer? Apples or Pears?
Do you like Oranges?

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> > > > > > I am just going to point out that there have been two polls I have seen where abiities and sprint are favored among the Halo community. In fairness, one was after the beta, but only 11% disliked sprinting. I feel like these polls aren’t referenced enough, because clearly anti-sprint is a very vocal minority. I am sure the majority of Halo players preferring the mechanic means nothing, right?
> > > > >
> > > > > PS: That “what the majority wants” talk holds only so much water for you. Given enough changes based on majority interests, even you’ll quit at some point. Meaning, even without you saying a word, you’re not content with what the majority wants.
> > > > > Because I seriously believe you’re here talking against your own self interests. I certainly am not.
> > > >
> > > > I have no idea what that is supposed to mean.
> > >
> > > You skipped everything else to reply to this part??
> > >
> > > Okay. Let me explain.
> > >
> > > You’re basically saying that what the majority wants, the majority should get.
> > > Unless you are the Majority, this will at some point go against your own interests in how you think Halo should play.
> > >
> > > I seriously doubt you are here speaking for what the majority wants, and then not wanting it yourself.
> >
> > I didn’t see the rest of it as information that was necessary to address. According to all data I can find, I am. Again, I can’t speak for the current landscape, only the ones I could find from over a year ago.
>
> So you reference a poll which falls in your favour, asking why it isn’t referenced more, yet when it gets discussed why it isn’t referenced more, and issues overall with polls, it’s uneccessary data?
>
> Is it too easy to dismiss because it falls in your favour?
>
> Vegeto here linked to a few other polls, and there are way more than that from before which are in favour of no-sprint.
> There was even a “larger” one asking about Sprint and Flinch, in which I think roughly 80% were against sprint, quite some time before the Halo 5 beta. Think it was 3 000 participants.
>
> If i343 wanted a specific result out of that poll, asking questions in a specific way nudges that result towards their end goal.
>
> "Do you like having to press a thumbstick to increase your forward speed by X% at the cost of your offense and defense capabilities leaving yo

No because I saw only conjecture and no actual numbers. Vegeto has already disproven my polls. I would still argue that 343 made the best decision based on the information they had. However, the way the community later on felt about sprint is clearly not so simple.

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> > > > > > > I am just going to point out that there have been two polls I have seen where abiities and sprint are favored among the Halo community. In fairness, one was after the beta, but only 11% disliked sprinting. I feel like these polls aren’t referenced enough, because clearly anti-sprint is a very vocal minority. I am sure the majority of Halo players preferring the mechanic means nothing, right?
> > > > >
> > > > > I understand that polls aren’t representative of the entire community, and can sometimes be misleading. However, you are just filling in gaps of information with theory, instead of acknowledging that at a point in time where Halo 5 had a larger player base, a majority liked sprint. The alternative view would be to disregard what the majority of current players want in exchange to gamble with the idea that this mechanic is also what is causing no one to play the game. Polls are in no way a definitive portrait, but they should not just be disregarded entirely. Literally each one I found favored sprint.
> > > >
> > > > They shouldn’t be disregarded, but they shouldn’t be held to a matter of fact as well, because it could easily not be a majority at all, just the majority of people who participated in the poll.
> > > >
> > > > If you made a poll at the tail end of Halo 4’s lifespan if they liked Halo 4, the majority would say yes. But it doesn’t take into account the hundreds of thousands of people that left probably because they didn’t like Halo 4. In this case, that poll was made at the tail end of Halo’s (the franchise) lifespan, about 4 years of having Sprint.
> > > >
> > > > And like someone else said: “Do you like Sprint?” or “How much do you like Sprint?” doesn’t ask the whole question. Look at how many people like Sprint because they really want to go faster, without realizing there’s more than one way to go faster. Is removing the mechanic against the wishes of the poll such a bad thing when it’s replaced by an equal mechanic?
> > >
> > > I don’t really care about people’s reasons for liking sprint, just that they said that they liked sprint. This conversation for me isn’t about what is objectively the better mechanic, but that given the information that 343 has acquired, it would be stupid to remove sprint. You are probably completely right, but the poll results still indicate that most Halo 5 players at one point preferred sprint. Maybe the results would be different now, but I couldn’t find any polls that indicated otherwise.
> >
> > That really all depends on where the information was gathered. Polls can easily find conflicting results.
> >
> > Here’s a poll with ~250 people that preferred Sprint in early 2015 (shortly before the H5 Beta)
> >
> > Here’s a different poll with ~200 people that overwhelmingly didn’t prefer Sprint even further before the beta. Of course this one is super biased too, just in the other direction.
> >
> > Here’s a poll from Reddit with almost 2000 people that also didn’t prefer Sprint.
> >
> > And also apparently there’s a video where a 343i member put up a poll, and they overwhelmingly didn’t prefer Sprint.
>
> That is fair. I did not see those polls for some reason. Way to take all of the wind out of my keyboard warrior sails.

LOL! Nice one. Ya, there are a lot of polls out there bud. Wouldn’t be hard to not see this one or that.

I agree with what Vegeto30294 has been saying. Polls should be considered, but they’re definitely not the be all end all. The way some questions are set up in polls too can be very misleading. They don’t give you a clear yes or no, or that’s all they give you. I would of loved to have gotten one survey that 343I did, and I’m part of the program but I wasn’t randomly chosen :frowning: but I recall some of the questions got leaked on Waypoint. Some to do with sprint for example weren’t as simple as “Do you I want to sprint in Halo, yes or no” I’m trying to find how they were worded, but trust me, it wasn’t black and white. People who did the survey were not very happy I recall.

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> > > > > > > > > DOOM was not successful because it has little to no player base.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I find this logic silly because I can just point to H4’s population numbers and your “sprint makes Halo more successful” argument falls apart. It’s fine if you prefer sprint but there’s no need to make such claims. Player retention can fluctuate for an infinite number of reasons.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Well said
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Except it isn’t. Halo 4 flopped, but Halo 5 did not implementing the only mechanic that matters in this conversation. That is a nice fancy straw man,though. Almost fooled me for a second.
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.vgchartz.com/game/82148/halo-5-guardians/ → 4.5M copies of Halo 5 soldhttp://www.vgchartz.com/game/51758/halo-4/ → **9.8M copies of Halo 4 sold.**Halo 5 did not sell even half as well as Halo 4 did. This argument is a straight up lie and people need to stop making it.
> > > > > Halo’s largest drop in active players happened early in Halo 4’s history. People bought Halo 4, then decided that Halo 4 “wasn’t Halo” and left.
> > > > > After that, when Halo 5 showed up with a gameplay format that was still definitely “not Halo”… many of those that left just didn’t buy it. They stayed away. Many of us who did buy Halo 5 bought it because, at the time, we’d buy anything with the Halo name on it.
> > > > >
> > > > > Sprint or no sprint, Halo 5 does not offer the experience that most people buying a Halo title are looking for. The easiest way to remedy this problem is to stop adding pieces of other games to Halo like they’re Lego bricks, and just follow the formula that made Halo the king of FPS gaming in the first place.
> > > > >
> > > > > That means no thrusting and no sprinting. It means putting advanced movement options back on the map in the form of mancannons, pickups, vehicles, grav lifts, and teleporters, and it means bringing the focus back to social play instead of emphasizing an industry copying hyper-competitive sandbox.
> > > >
> > > > Halo 5 has been said to have the highest concurrent players since Halo 3. This doesn’t mean it was super popular, but that more people came back month after month than Halo 4 did, relative to the population. Yet another nice strawman. You guys could work on a farm together.
>
> Oh, of course. Nobody is trying to say that Halo 5 is a worse game than Halo 4. I think most of us agree that Halo 5’s MP is much better than Halo 4’s for a multitude of reasons. The thing is… whatever changed between Halo 4 and 5 wasn’t enough to bring players back, and a lot changed. It’s up to speculation whether the poor launch offerings, sprint, thrusting, a bad story, or microtransactions are what scared people away from purchasing Halo 5. It’s obviously some combination of all of these things, but to what degree, who knows?
>
> Also like the guy above said, player retention has been manipulated by daily login rewards. It’s not an accurate metric when the previous games didn’t use such a system.

That is funny, I thought that Halo 4 was the best of the series. I guess I’m in the minority. I don’t see why sprint had to be nerfed in the first place. Halo 4 had limited(I think 5 seconds) sprint that was balanced by the personal Tactical upgrade, Mobiliy.

I agree that Halo 5 rewards players for daily logins; therefore could potentially make the population appear higher.

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> > Now the 2nd is what’s gotten me curious…
> > Sprint is a gimmick??? That makes no sense…
> > So you’re telling me that a super soldier (such as a spartan) cannot run because its a gimmick?
>
> So I’ve been reading along for the last ten pages or so, and I’ve seen this statement pop up every now and so often. I’m actually surprised that nobody addressed this in depth so far, but then again, in the past it was usually me who tried to tackle that argument. I just was pretty busy with work in the last few months, so I couldn’t really chime in until now…
>
> Anyways… where you see “a super soldier cannot run” without sprint, people like me see “a super soldier cannot shoot while running” with sprint. For a lot of people, having taken away the ability to shoot and move at the same time actually makes the Spartan feel weaker than he was before.
> And this is not only based on pure subjective perception. Spartans have been documented within lore to be able to sprint and shoot with extreme accuracy on multiple occasions, up to speeds of at the very least 15m/s.
> Sprint speed in H5G is somewhere around 10-11m/s, yet they somehow are unable to fire their weapon while doing so, even at reduced accuracy. That completely contradicts how Spartans haven been depicted in combat up until now.
> You could potentially make a case about Reach, seeing as the main characters (save Jorge) are all Spartan-IIIs, which are weaker than regular S-IIs, with cheaper augmentations, not being able to handle the full combat capabilities of a Mjolnir without safety restrictions. (Which actually is what the Sprint Armor Ability does within the universe: It is a softmod developed by Kat, that disables part of the safety regulation of the Mjolnir hydraulics for a short time, allowing them to run faster than considered safe for their anatomy, putting themselves at risk. I think it was mentioned in the Reach developer commentary, but I’m not 100% on that one.)
> You might be able to argue the same way for Spartan-IVs in multiplayer, seeing as they were augmented after childhood, thus not being as adaptable as S-IIs to their upgrades… except 343 have stated multiple times that S-IVs are supposed to be on the same level as Chief, especially with the Mjolnir GEN-2. So there’s already the first discrepancy.
> However, retroactively imposing the same limitations on John and Blue Team, without ever explaining why, is at best a huge plothole, and at worst a complete contradiction to the entire canon of the Spartan-program. Sprint - at least in its current implementation in the games - totally goes agains the lore of the universe.
> I can fully understand the desire to “feel like a super soldier” when playing Halo. It’s just that sprint does the complete opposite for a lot of people who have a different view on what a Spartan should be capable of. I haven’t actually felt like a super soldier since Halo 3. Hell, even playing as an ODST in, well, in ODST, despite all the gameplay limitations you had, made me feel more “super” than I have ever felt in Halo 4 or H5G.
>
> That being said, as has been pointed out several times before, and as I have also conceded every time this topic was brought up: A satisfying gameplay is more important than lore consistency. If sprint benefits the game, it should stay, and if it doesn’t, then it should go. Especially since the developers themselves are the ones in charge of the story and can choose to rewrite and/or retcon part of the lore if they so please.

I am one of the “lore” people but I understand what your saying. I wouldn’t mind a bump in BMS instead of sprint. Thank’s for the Halo Reach explanation; it actually makes the sprint AA have a lore explanation. I was always bothered that sprint was an ability and not built in. I disagree with you about 4 and 5. I feel the most like a Spartan in Halo 4 and 5 due to the enhanced mobility.

I actually was irritated that Halo 3 ODST kept the Halo 3 gameplay. Halo ODST was an opportunity to remake the Covenant as unstoppable, massive, scary, and unknown. It should’ve had more of Halo 5 style sights(Iron/Smartlink hybrid) to account for regular humans. How can ODST’s aim as well as Spartans? And slower BMS with limited sprint. I just wish that Halo ODST was a complete game instead of expensive DLC. Halo ODST was a perfect game to try new things wihout reflecting the rest of the series.

14677

> 2535416616313329;14675:
> > 2535417761739301;14658:
> > > 2535409816624774;14652:
> > > > 2535417761739301;14649:
> > > > > 2535409816624774;14648:
> > > > > > 2535417761739301;14647:
> > > > > > > 2535409816624774;14622:
> > > > > > > > 2533274815533909;14620:
> > > > > > > > > 2533274794648158;14616:
> > > > > > > > > > 2535409816624774;14615:
> > > > > > > > > > DOOM was not successful because it has little to no player base.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I find this logic silly because I can just point to H4’s population numbers and your “sprint makes Halo more successful” argument falls apart. It’s fine if you prefer sprint but there’s no need to make such claims. Player retention can fluctuate for an infinite number of reasons.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Well said
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Except it isn’t. Halo 4 flopped, but Halo 5 did not implementing the only mechanic that matters in this conversation. That is a nice fancy straw man,though. Almost fooled me for a second.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > http://www.vgchartz.com/game/82148/halo-5-guardians/ → 4.5M copies of Halo 5 soldhttp://www.vgchartz.com/game/51758/halo-4/ → **9.8M copies of Halo 4 sold.**Halo 5 did not sell even half as well as Halo 4 did. This argument is a straight up lie and people need to stop making it.
> > > > > > Halo’s largest drop in active players happened early in Halo 4’s history. People bought Halo 4, then decided that Halo 4 “wasn’t Halo” and left.
> > > > > > After that, when Halo 5 showed up with a gameplay format that was still definitely “not Halo”… many of those that left just didn’t buy it. They stayed away. Many of us who did buy Halo 5 bought it because, at the time, we’d buy anything with the Halo name on it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sprint or no sprint, Halo 5 does not offer the experience that most people buying a Halo title are looking for. The easiest way to remedy this problem is to stop adding pieces of other games to Halo like they’re Lego bricks, and just follow the formula that made Halo the king of FPS gaming in the first place.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > That means no thrusting and no sprinting. It means putting advanced movement options back on the map in the form of mancannons, pickups, vehicles, grav lifts, and teleporters, and it means bringing the focus back to social play instead of emphasizing an industry copying hyper-competitive sandbox.
> > > > >
> > > > > Halo 5 has been said to have the highest concurrent players since Halo 3. This doesn’t mean it was super popular, but that more people came back month after month than Halo 4 did, relative to the population. Yet another nice strawman. You guys could work on a farm together.
> >
> > Oh, of course. Nobody is trying to say that Halo 5 is a worse game than Halo 4. I think most of us agree that Halo 5’s MP is much better than Halo 4’s for a multitude of reasons. The thing is… whatever changed between Halo 4 and 5 wasn’t enough to bring players back, and a lot changed. It’s up to speculation whether the poor launch offerings, sprint, thrusting, a bad story, or microtransactions are what scared people away from purchasing Halo 5. It’s obviously some combination of all of these things, but to what degree, who knows?
> >
> > Also like the guy above said, player retention has been manipulated by daily login rewards. It’s not an accurate metric when the previous games didn’t use such a system.
>
> That is funny, I thought that Halo 4 was the best of the series. I guess I’m in the minority. I don’t see why sprint had to be nerfed in the first place. Halo 4 had limited(I think 5 seconds) sprint that was balanced by the personal Tactical upgrade, Mobiliy.
>
> I agree that Halo 5 rewards players for daily logins; therefore could potentially make the population appear higher.

I remember a lot of feedback being about players escaping easily or at least dragging encounters out.
5 seconds of sprint is enough to allow shields to start recharging to full charge, kind of like resetting the encounter.

Not getting shields back just puts the encounter sort of on-hold.

Then the increase of BMS and decrease in the BMS - Sprint delta ( difference in speed between them ) most likely to allow a better initial chase speed, and an adjustment to make “walking mode” not feel so slow on the “smaller” maps where sprint potentially had played a larger role in the layout than larger maps.

14678

just remove spirit

14679

Would you say that abilities such as melee also decrease the skill gap? The only real skill I can think of is timing.

14680

> 2535443548700992;14678:
> just remove spirit

care to elaborate on that thought?

> 2535409816624774;14679:
> Would you say that abilities such as melee also decrease the skill gap? The only real skill I can think of is timing.

Abilities such as melee? You’d have to explain that thought process more if you think I should seeing as I think sprint decrease it.

Real skill is timing? With what?

14681

> 2535409816624774;14679:
> Would you say that abilities such as melee also decrease the skill gap? The only real skill I can think of is timing.

I don’t see the comparison, but more importantly melee has always been a staple of Halo. The point isn’t to make the skill-gap as high as humanly possible, because if it was then you’d have a game that doesn’t resemble Halo at all and probably wouldn’t be best played with a controller. The point is to make a game that’s fun, and many people find a large but not insane skill-gap fun. It’s fun to be able to make all of the jumps backwards while shooting enemies. Being locked into animations and linear pathings I don’t think is as fun as the alternative, and coincidentally (arguably) lessens the moderate skill-gap that was in place.

14682

> 2535409816624774;14679:
> Would you say that abilities such as melee also decrease the skill gap? The only real skill I can think of is timing.

Well, melee can make close range encounters less challenging, especially if coupled with an ability like sprint, if it is viable for both players to use it. What really saves the day is that often going for the melee is not a good idea, because if you can hit the opponent, they can hit you. So, using melee is often not the most optimal strategy. Its primary job, after all, is to finish a fight you’ve already won. Trying to use it to turn the situation around is rarely successful.

Of course, one also has to consider what melee adds to the depth of the game. Timing is a minimal factor. Almost anyone can master it to sufficient accuracy. I think the greatest impact of melee is in the introduction of assassinations, which punishes players for not being aware of their surroundings, and introduces some risky counterplay in the form of ninja assassinations. Are these enough to mitigate the slight impact on close range encounters? Probably, I would say.

The greatest impact of removing melee would be that players could be more careless about what is happening behind their back. Since that’s not something we want, it’s best to keep it in.

14683

> 2535416616313329;14676:
> > 2533274801176260;14646:
> > > 2535441687762024;14641:
> > > Now the 2nd is what’s gotten me curious…
> > > Sprint is a gimmick??? That makes no sense…
> > > So you’re telling me that a super soldier (such as a spartan) cannot run because its a gimmick?
> >
> > So I’ve been reading along for the last ten pages or so, and I’ve seen this statement pop up every now and so often. I’m actually surprised that nobody addressed this in depth so far, but then again, in the past it was usually me who tried to tackle that argument. I just was pretty busy with work in the last few months, so I couldn’t really chime in until now…
> >
> > Anyways… where you see “a super soldier cannot run” without sprint, people like me see “a super soldier cannot shoot while running” with sprint. For a lot of people, having taken away the ability to shoot and move at the same time actually makes the Spartan feel weaker than he was before.
> > And this is not only based on pure subjective perception. Spartans have been documented within lore to be able to sprint and shoot with extreme accuracy on multiple occasions, up to speeds of at the very least 15m/s.
> > Sprint speed in H5G is somewhere around 10-11m/s, yet they somehow are unable to fire their weapon while doing so, even at reduced accuracy. That completely contradicts how Spartans haven been depicted in combat up until now.
> > You could potentially make a case about Reach, seeing as the main characters (save Jorge) are all Spartan-IIIs, which are weaker than regular S-IIs, with cheaper augmentations, not being able to handle the full combat capabilities of a Mjolnir without safety restrictions. (Which actually is what the Sprint Armor Ability does within the universe: It is a softmod developed by Kat, that disables part of the safety regulation of the Mjolnir hydraulics for a short time, allowing them to run faster than considered safe for their anatomy, putting themselves at risk. I think it was mentioned in the Reach developer commentary, but I’m not 100% on that one.)
> > You might be able to argue the same way for Spartan-IVs in multiplayer, seeing as they were augmented after childhood, thus not being as adaptable as S-IIs to their upgrades… except 343 have stated multiple times that S-IVs are supposed to be on the same level as Chief, especially with the Mjolnir GEN-2. So there’s already the first discrepancy.
> > However, retroactively imposing the same limitations on John and Blue Team, without ever explaining why, is at best a huge plothole, and at worst a complete contradiction to the entire canon of the Spartan-program. Sprint - at least in its current implementation in the games - totally goes agains the lore of the universe.
> > I can fully understand the desire to “feel like a super soldier” when playing Halo. It’s just that sprint does the complete opposite for a lot of people who have a different view on what a Spartan should be capable of. I haven’t actually felt like a super soldier since Halo 3. Hell, even playing as an ODST in, well, in ODST, despite all the gameplay limitations you had, made me feel more “super” than I have ever felt in Halo 4 or H5G.
> >
> > That being said, as has been pointed out several times before, and as I have also conceded every time this topic was brought up: A satisfying gameplay is more important than lore consistency. If sprint benefits the game, it should stay, and if it doesn’t, then it should go. Especially since the developers themselves are the ones in charge of the story and can choose to rewrite and/or retcon part of the lore if they so please.
>
> I actually was irritated that Halo 3 ODST kept the Halo 3 gameplay. Halo ODST was an opportunity to remake the Covenant as unstoppable, massive, scary, and unknown. It should’ve had more of Halo 5 style sights(Iron/Smartlink hybrid) to account for regular humans. How can ODST’s aim as well as Spartans? And slower BMS with limited sprint. I just wish that Halo ODST was a complete game instead of expensive DLC. Halo ODST was a perfect game to try new things wihout reflecting the rest of the series.

ODST had plenty of potential to be much better than it was. Bungie basically made the player feel like a weaker Master Chief, with the same terrible Halo 3 Covenant A.I., the same terrible weapons (the pistol and SMG were absolute trash on higher difficulties), and same 2007 graphics. Despite these issues, it was the first Halo to have Firefight, and the OST and Campaign are a lot better than Halo 3’s repetitive music and level design. As for being an “expensive DLC”, $19.99 for a game and a map pack of a similar game wasn’t that bad of a deal to me.

14684

> 2533274825830455;14682:
> > 2535409816624774;14679:
> > Would you say that abilities such as melee also decrease the skill gap? The only real skill I can think of is timing.
>
> Well, melee can make close range encounters less challenging, especially if coupled with an ability like sprint, if it is viable for both players to use it. What really saves the day is that often going for the melee is not a good idea, because if you can hit the opponent, they can hit you. So, using melee is often not the most optimal strategy. Its primary job, after all, is to finish a fight you’ve already won. Trying to use it to turn the situation around is rarely successful.
>
> Of course, one also has to consider what melee adds to the depth of the game. Timing is a minimal factor. Almost anyone can master it to sufficient accuracy. I think the greatest impact of melee is in the introduction of assassinations, which punishes players for not being aware of their surroundings, and introduces some risky counterplay in the form of ninja assassinations. Are these enough to mitigate the slight impact on close range encounters? Probably, I would say.
>
> The greatest impact of removing melee would be that players could be more careless about what is happening behind their back. Since that’s not something we want, it’s best to keep it in.

To add to this: Melees make close-quarters combat more coherent in a game where the movement speeds are not fast enough that players automatically separate themselves after colliding and can resume normal gunplay very quickly (like, for example, Quake).

So, I wouldn’t call melees necessarily skillful, but they do fill a hole in the gameplay.

14685

> 2533274794648158;14684:
> To add to this: Melees make close-quarters combat more coherent in a game where the movement speeds are not fast enough that players automatically separate themselves after colliding and can resume normal gunplay very quickly (like, for example, Quake).
>
> So, I wouldn’t call melees necessarily skillful, but they do fill a hole in the gameplay.

Well put. Melee is a necessary detraction from skill that keeps close range encounters from being awkward. Sprint, on the other hand is a useless and clunky mechanic that benefits the gameplay in no way whatsoever.