The sprint discussion thread

Games Halo 5: Guardians
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> Now the 2nd is what’s gotten me curious…
> Sprint is a gimmick??? That makes no sense…
> So you’re telling me that a super soldier (such as a spartan) cannot run because its a gimmick?

So I’ve been reading along for the last ten pages or so, and I’ve seen this statement pop up every now and so often. I’m actually surprised that nobody addressed this in depth so far, but then again, in the past it was usually me who tried to tackle that argument. I just was pretty busy with work in the last few months, so I couldn’t really chime in until now…

Anyways… where you see “a super soldier cannot run” without sprint, people like me see “a super soldier cannot shoot while running” with sprint. For a lot of people, having taken away the ability to shoot and move at the same time actually makes the Spartan feel weaker than he was before.
And this is not only based on pure subjective perception. Spartans have been documented within lore to be able to sprint and shoot with extreme accuracy on multiple occasions, up to speeds of at the very least 15m/s.
Sprint speed in H5G is somewhere around 10-11m/s, yet they somehow are unable to fire their weapon while doing so, even at reduced accuracy. That completely contradicts how Spartans haven been depicted in combat up until now.
You could potentially make a case about Reach, seeing as the main characters (save Jorge) are all Spartan-IIIs, which are weaker than regular S-IIs, with cheaper augmentations, not being able to handle the full combat capabilities of a Mjolnir without safety restrictions. (Which actually is what the Sprint Armor Ability does within the universe: It is a softmod developed by Kat, that disables part of the safety regulation of the Mjolnir hydraulics for a short time, allowing them to run faster than considered safe for their anatomy, putting themselves at risk. I think it was mentioned in the Reach developer commentary, but I’m not 100% on that one.)
You might be able to argue the same way for Spartan-IVs in multiplayer, seeing as they were augmented after childhood, thus not being as adaptable as S-IIs to their upgrades… except 343 have stated multiple times that S-IVs are supposed to be on the same level as Chief, especially with the Mjolnir GEN-2. So there’s already the first discrepancy.
However, retroactively imposing the same limitations on John and Blue Team, without ever explaining why, is at best a huge plothole, and at worst a complete contradiction to the entire canon of the Spartan-program. Sprint - at least in its current implementation in the games - totally goes agains the lore of the universe.
I can fully understand the desire to “feel like a super soldier” when playing Halo. It’s just that sprint does the complete opposite for a lot of people who have a different view on what a Spartan should be capable of. I haven’t actually felt like a super soldier since Halo 3. Hell, even playing as an ODST in, well, in ODST, despite all the gameplay limitations you had, made me feel more “super” than I have ever felt in Halo 4 or H5G.

That being said, as has been pointed out several times before, and as I have also conceded every time this topic was brought up: A satisfying gameplay is more important than lore consistency. If sprint benefits the game, it should stay, and if it doesn’t, then it should go. Especially since the developers themselves are the ones in charge of the story and can choose to rewrite and/or retcon part of the lore if they so please.

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> > > > DOOM was not successful because it has little to no player base.
> > >
> > > I find this logic silly because I can just point to H4’s population numbers and your “sprint makes Halo more successful” argument falls apart. It’s fine if you prefer sprint but there’s no need to make such claims. Player retention can fluctuate for an infinite number of reasons.
> >
> > Well said
>
> Except it isn’t. Halo 4 flopped, but Halo 5 did not implementing the only mechanic that matters in this conversation. That is a nice fancy straw man,though. Almost fooled me for a second.

  • http://www.vgchartz.com/game/82148/halo-5-guardians/ → 4.5M copies of Halo 5 sold - http://www.vgchartz.com/game/51758/halo-4/ → 9.8M copies of Halo 4 sold - Halo 5 did not sell even half as well as Halo 4 did. This argument is a straight up lie and people need to stop making it.Halo’s largest drop in active players happened early in Halo 4’s history. People bought Halo 4, then decided that Halo 4 “wasn’t Halo” and left.
    After that, when Halo 5 showed up with a gameplay format that was still definitely “not Halo”… many of those that left just didn’t buy it. They stayed away. Many of us who did buy Halo 5 bought it because, at the time, we’d buy anything with the Halo name on it.

Sprint or no sprint, Halo 5 does not offer the experience that most people buying a Halo title are looking for. The easiest way to remedy this problem is to stop adding pieces of other games to Halo like they’re Lego bricks, and just follow the formula that made Halo the king of FPS gaming in the first place.

That means no thrusting and no sprinting. It means putting advanced movement options back on the map in the form of mancannons, pickups, vehicles, grav lifts, and moving map geometry, and it means bringing the focus back to social play instead of placing the emphasis an industry copying hyper-competitive sandbox.

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> > > > > DOOM was not successful because it has little to no player base.
> > > >
> > > > I find this logic silly because I can just point to H4’s population numbers and your “sprint makes Halo more successful” argument falls apart. It’s fine if you prefer sprint but there’s no need to make such claims. Player retention can fluctuate for an infinite number of reasons.
> > >
> > > Well said
> >
> > Except it isn’t. Halo 4 flopped, but Halo 5 did not implementing the only mechanic that matters in this conversation. That is a nice fancy straw man,though. Almost fooled me for a second.
>
> http://www.vgchartz.com/game/82148/halo-5-guardians/ → 4.5M copies of Halo 5 soldhttp://www.vgchartz.com/game/51758/halo-4/ → **9.8M copies of Halo 4 sold.**Halo 5 did not sell even half as well as Halo 4 did. This argument is a straight up lie and people need to stop making it.
> Halo’s largest drop in active players happened early in Halo 4’s history. People bought Halo 4, then decided that Halo 4 “wasn’t Halo” and left.
> After that, when Halo 5 showed up with a gameplay format that was still definitely “not Halo”… many of those that left just didn’t buy it. They stayed away. Many of us who did buy Halo 5 bought it because, at the time, we’d buy anything with the Halo name on it.
>
> Sprint or no sprint, Halo 5 does not offer the experience that most people buying a Halo title are looking for. The easiest way to remedy this problem is to stop adding pieces of other games to Halo like they’re Lego bricks, and just follow the formula that made Halo the king of FPS gaming in the first place.
>
> That means no thrusting and no sprinting. It means putting advanced movement options back on the map in the form of mancannons, pickups, vehicles, grav lifts, and teleporters, and it means bringing the focus back to social play instead of emphasizing an industry copying hyper-competitive sandbox.

Halo 5 has been said to have the highest concurrent players since Halo 3. This doesn’t mean it was super popular, but that more people came back month after month than Halo 4 did, relative to the population. Yet another nice strawman. You guys could work on a farm together.

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> > > > > > 2535409816624774;14615:
> > > > > > DOOM was not successful because it has little to no player base.
> > > > >
> > > > > I find this logic silly because I can just point to H4’s population numbers and your “sprint makes Halo more successful” argument falls apart. It’s fine if you prefer sprint but there’s no need to make such claims. Player retention can fluctuate for an infinite number of reasons.
> > > >
> > > > Well said
> > >
> > > Except it isn’t. Halo 4 flopped, but Halo 5 did not implementing the only mechanic that matters in this conversation. That is a nice fancy straw man,though. Almost fooled me for a second.
> >
> > http://www.vgchartz.com/game/82148/halo-5-guardians/ → 4.5M copies of Halo 5 soldhttp://www.vgchartz.com/game/51758/halo-4/ → **9.8M copies of Halo 4 sold.**Halo 5 did not sell even half as well as Halo 4 did. This argument is a straight up lie and people need to stop making it.
> > Halo’s largest drop in active players happened early in Halo 4’s history. People bought Halo 4, then decided that Halo 4 “wasn’t Halo” and left.
> > After that, when Halo 5 showed up with a gameplay format that was still definitely “not Halo”… many of those that left just didn’t buy it. They stayed away. Many of us who did buy Halo 5 bought it because, at the time, we’d buy anything with the Halo name on it.
> >
> > Sprint or no sprint, Halo 5 does not offer the experience that most people buying a Halo title are looking for. The easiest way to remedy this problem is to stop adding pieces of other games to Halo like they’re Lego bricks, and just follow the formula that made Halo the king of FPS gaming in the first place.
> >
> > That means no thrusting and no sprinting. It means putting advanced movement options back on the map in the form of mancannons, pickups, vehicles, grav lifts, and teleporters, and it means bringing the focus back to social play instead of emphasizing an industry copying hyper-competitive sandbox.
>
> Halo 5 has been said to have the highest concurrent players since Halo 3. This doesn’t mean it was super popular, but that more people came back month after month than Halo 4 did, relative to the population. Yet another nice strawman. You guys could work on a farm together.

Nobody here is misrepresenting your argument, and insulting people who disagree with you doesn’t help your case in any way.

A “one-time high in concurrent users” is an anecdote, and anecdotes are not useful for solving problems for many reasons.

  • See here: https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/anecdotalIn this specific example, that “record user count” occurred after the following:
  • Halo 5's Biggest-Ever Expansion Is Out Today as Game Goes Free for Limited Time - GameSpot - ^^^ The release of Warzone FF, immediately following a period where Halo 5 was free to play…Seeing a problem yet? We should be talking about overall player counts over the lifespan of the games, because that is relevant. By all accounts in that comparison, Halo 5 falls flat on it’s face against Halo 3. Halo 5 is currently sitting below the top 15 most played games on Xbox Live, whereas for the first two YEARS of Halo 3’s lifespan, it was battling for #1 with the brand new online CoD multiplayer offerings in CoD 4 and World at War.
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> > > > > > > > > > A testament to why we need sprint is the Halo 3 playlist that was going on. It just doesn’t work in 2016/2017…
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > You’re seriously basing your opinion, just on one playlist, and not the actual game that wasn’t built around Sprint? Wow. Just, wow.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Stop bashing other peoples opinions because you dont agree. I, and a large majority of Halo fans, want sprint to stay based off of a poll 343i, the developers of Halo by the way, conducted.
> > > > > > > > I want it to stay because my favorite 3 games in the series have it and other PERSONAL reason surounding the feature.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Here are a couple more OPINIONS about the subject. Feel free to bash them if you want.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Does sprint make maps larger and give the illusion of speed while actually slowing down gameplay? Maybe, but who cares? The games are still fun.
> > > > > > > > Oh, you dont agree? Maybe because your OPINION differs from my own.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Does sprint allow people to get away and provide a more chaotic play environment? Maybe, but who cares? The games are still fun.
> > > > > > > > Oh, you dont agree? Maybe because your OPINION differs from my own.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > THANK YOU!!! Its legit so hard to just express OPINIONS nowadays… Ridiculous
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Disregarding the above heated discussion, would you be prepared to flesh your initial statement out?
> > > > > > Here are some questions I feel would help me understand what you built your opinion on:
> > > > > > 1: How is one playlist void of mechanics the game was built upon, an indication of why sprint is needed?
> > > > > > 2: How is the current year any justification of a game mechanic? Why doesn’t no-sprint work in the current year?
> > > > > > 3: Are you implying that removing sprint will revert Halo back to Halo 3 in its entirety?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Is this a better approach to understanding your statement? Which is essentially treycen’s initial goal, though a blunt approach.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I don’t find it difficult to express my opinions.
> > > > > > However sometimes I may find it hard to explain my opinions, why I think the way I do aboit something. Generally I keep quiet if I can’t explain my opinions.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > FallenKnight, I’ll get back to you sometime later.
>
> I’m stating that not having sprint in games nowadays is wrong.

Why?

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> > > > > > DOOM was not successful because it has little to no player base.
> > > > >
> > > > > I find this logic silly because I can just point to H4’s population numbers and your “sprint makes Halo more successful” argument falls apart. It’s fine if you prefer sprint but there’s no need to make such claims. Player retention can fluctuate for an infinite number of reasons.
> > > >
> > > > Well said
>
> Halo 5 has been said to have the highest concurrent players since Halo 3.

343i said “Halo 5 has the highest player retention since Halo 3”. That might sound like the same thing, but it’s not. Wording matters.

Concurrent - Basically means the number of players playing at the same time.
Retention - The percentage (not number) of players who still play the game after a certain period.

Since Halo 4 sold nearly 10m copies but lost that player base very fast, it wouldn’t be hard for Halo 5 (which sold half as much) to beat that retention, even with a smaller community. Part of the “appeal” of Halo 5 was the monthly updates and daily login bonuses. This wasn’t an accident. Its players have been conditioned to boot the game up to get rewards and check out new content.

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> If anything I love classic halo, I’m stating that not having sprint in games nowadays is wrong. I know that you can increase the movement speed - not he same.

Why is it wrong? What makes them so different that Sprint has to be included in this game and Base Movement speed doesn’t?

And since you said “games” in general, what about other games with no Sprint? Why do they need Sprint?

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> > > > > 2533274815533909;14620:
> > > > > > 2533274794648158;14616:
> > > > > > > 2535409816624774;14615:
> > > > > > > DOOM was not successful because it has little to no player base.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I find this logic silly because I can just point to H4’s population numbers and your “sprint makes Halo more successful” argument falls apart. It’s fine if you prefer sprint but there’s no need to make such claims. Player retention can fluctuate for an infinite number of reasons.
> > > > >
> > > > > Well said
> > > >
> > > > Except it isn’t. Halo 4 flopped, but Halo 5 did not implementing the only mechanic that matters in this conversation. That is a nice fancy straw man,though. Almost fooled me for a second.
> > >
> > > http://www.vgchartz.com/game/82148/halo-5-guardians/ → 4.5M copies of Halo 5 soldhttp://www.vgchartz.com/game/51758/halo-4/ → **9.8M copies of Halo 4 sold.**Halo 5 did not sell even half as well as Halo 4 did. This argument is a straight up lie and people need to stop making it.
> > > Halo’s largest drop in active players happened early in Halo 4’s history. People bought Halo 4, then decided that Halo 4 “wasn’t Halo” and left.
> > > After that, when Halo 5 showed up with a gameplay format that was still definitely “not Halo”… many of those that left just didn’t buy it. They stayed away. Many of us who did buy Halo 5 bought it because, at the time, we’d buy anything with the Halo name on it.
> > >
> > > Sprint or no sprint, Halo 5 does not offer the experience that most people buying a Halo title are looking for. The easiest way to remedy this problem is to stop adding pieces of other games to Halo like they’re Lego bricks, and just follow the formula that made Halo the king of FPS gaming in the first place.
> > >
> > > That means no thrusting and no sprinting. It means putting advanced movement options back on the map in the form of mancannons, pickups, vehicles, grav lifts, and teleporters, and it means bringing the focus back to social play instead of emphasizing an industry copying hyper-competitive sandbox.
> >
> > Halo 5 has been said to have the highest concurrent players since Halo 3. This doesn’t mean it was super popular, but that more people came back month after month than Halo 4 did, relative to the population. Yet another nice strawman. You guys could work on a farm together.
>
> Nobody here is misrepresenting your argument, and insulting people who disagree with you doesn’t help your case in any way.
>
> A “one-time high in concurrent users” is an anecdote, and anecdotes are not useful for solving problems for many reasons.
> - See here: https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/anecdotalIn this specific example, that “record user count” occurred after the following:
> - Halo 5's Biggest-Ever Expansion Is Out Today as Game Goes Free for Limited Time - GameSpot - ^^^ The release of Warzone FF, immediately following a period where Halo 5 was free to play…Seeing a problem yet? We should be talking about overall player counts over the lifespan of the games, because that is relevant. By all accounts in that comparison, Halo 5 falls flat on it’s face against Halo 3. Halo 5 is currently sitting below the top 15 most played games on Xbox Live, whereas for the first two YEARS of Halo 3’s lifespan, it was battling for #1 with the brand new online CoD multiplayer offerings in CoD 4 and World at War.

You are actually right. Halo 5 had the highest player retention. I misspoke earlier. Player retention is a very good metric for indicating success of a multiplayer shooter. Halo 3 was far more popular, but the market was less saturated. I don’t think there is a console shooter that has ever had the population of Halo 3. I guess I built my own straw-man. Is the farm hiring?

Edit: My argument is not that Halo 5 is more popular than Halo 3 was, but that two years in there is more activity than Halo 4.

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At this point it all matters about how the map is built. Right now in H5, we need sprint as the maps were built that way. Personally I don’t mind sprint, I think it adds a whole new layer to this game. It takes skill to sprint efficiently, because when you sprint you risk not shooting as fast, but if you don’t sprint you won’t get to situations faster. My 2 cents.

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> > > > > > > > > > > A testament to why we need sprint is the Halo 3 playlist that was going on. It just doesn’t work in 2016/2017…
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > You’re seriously basing your opinion, just on one playlist, and not the actual game that wasn’t built around Sprint? Wow. Just, wow.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Stop bashing other peoples opinions because you dont agree. I, and a large majority of Halo fans, want sprint to stay based off of a poll 343i, the developers of Halo by the way, conducted.
> > > > > > > > > I want it to stay because my favorite 3 games in the series have it and other PERSONAL reason surounding the feature.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Here are a couple more OPINIONS about the subject. Feel free to bash them if you want.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Does sprint make maps larger and give the illusion of speed while actually slowing down gameplay? Maybe, but who cares? The games are still fun.
> > > > > > > > > Oh, you dont agree? Maybe because your OPINION differs from my own.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Does sprint allow people to get away and provide a more chaotic play environment? Maybe, but who cares? The games are still fun.
> > > > > > > > > Oh, you dont agree? Maybe because your OPINION differs from my own.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > THANK YOU!!! Its legit so hard to just express OPINIONS nowadays… Ridiculous
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Disregarding the above heated discussion, would you be prepared to flesh your initial statement out?
> > > > > > > Here are some questions I feel would help me understand what you built your opinion on:
> > > > > > > 1: How is one playlist void of mechanics the game was built upon, an indication of why sprint is needed?
> > > > > > > 2: How is the current year any justification of a game mechanic? Why doesn’t no-sprint work in the current year?
> > > > > > > 3: Are you implying that removing sprint will revert Halo back to Halo 3 in its entirety?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Is this a better approach to understanding your statement? Which is essentially treycen’s initial goal, though a blunt approach.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I don’t find it difficult to express my opinions.
> > > > > > > However sometimes I may find it hard to explain my opinions, why I think the way I do aboit something. Generally I keep quiet if I can’t explain my opinions.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > FallenKnight, I’ll get back to you sometime later.
> >
> > I’m stating that not having sprint in games nowadays is wrong.
>
> Why?

It doesn’t feel right…

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The sprint feature never really bugged me as much. It was more interesting in Halo Reach when sprint was a power up that you could swap for holograms or -Yoinking!- Armor Lock.

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[deleted]

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> > > > > > > > > > > > A testament to why we need sprint is the Halo 3 playlist that was going on. It just doesn’t work in 2016/2017…
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > You’re seriously basing your opinion, just on one playlist, and not the actual game that wasn’t built around Sprint? Wow. Just, wow.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Stop bashing other peoples opinions because you dont agree. I, and a large majority of Halo fans, want sprint to stay based off of a poll 343i, the developers of Halo by the way, conducted.
> > > > > > > > > > I want it to stay because my favorite 3 games in the series have it and other PERSONAL reason surounding the feature.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Here are a couple more OPINIONS about the subject. Feel free to bash them if you want.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Does sprint make maps larger and give the illusion of speed while actually slowing down gameplay? Maybe, but who cares? The games are still fun.
> > > > > > > > > > Oh, you dont agree? Maybe because your OPINION differs from my own.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Does sprint allow people to get away and provide a more chaotic play environment? Maybe, but who cares? The games are still fun.
> > > > > > > > > > Oh, you dont agree? Maybe because your OPINION differs from my own.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > THANK YOU!!! Its legit so hard to just express OPINIONS nowadays… Ridiculous
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Disregarding the above heated discussion, would you be prepared to flesh your initial statement out?
> > > > > > > > Here are some questions I feel would help me understand what you built your opinion on:
> > > > > > > > 1: How is one playlist void of mechanics the game was built upon, an indication of why sprint is needed?
> > > > > > > > 2: How is the current year any justification of a game mechanic? Why doesn’t no-sprint work in the current year?
> > > > > > > > 3: Are you implying that removing sprint will revert Halo back to Halo 3 in its entirety?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Is this a better approach to understanding your statement? Which is essentially treycen’s initial goal, though a blunt approach.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I don’t find it difficult to express my opinions.
> > > > > > > > However sometimes I may find it hard to explain my opinions, why I think the way I do aboit something. Generally I keep quiet if I can’t explain my opinions.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > FallenKnight, I’ll get back to you sometime later.
> > >
> > > I’m stating that not having sprint in games nowadays is wrong.
> >
> > Why?
>
> It doesn’t feel right…

You’re going to have to put in a little more effort than “feeling.”

You’re using an opinion to back up an objective claim.

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> > > > > > > > DOOM was not successful because it has little to no player base.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I find this logic silly because I can just point to H4’s population numbers and your “sprint makes Halo more successful” argument falls apart. It’s fine if you prefer sprint but there’s no need to make such claims. Player retention can fluctuate for an infinite number of reasons.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Well said
> > > > >
> > > > > Except it isn’t. Halo 4 flopped, but Halo 5 did not implementing the only mechanic that matters in this conversation. That is a nice fancy straw man,though. Almost fooled me for a second.
> > > >
> > > > http://www.vgchartz.com/game/82148/halo-5-guardians/ → 4.5M copies of Halo 5 soldhttp://www.vgchartz.com/game/51758/halo-4/ → **9.8M copies of Halo 4 sold.**Halo 5 did not sell even half as well as Halo 4 did. This argument is a straight up lie and people need to stop making it.
> > > > Halo’s largest drop in active players happened early in Halo 4’s history. People bought Halo 4, then decided that Halo 4 “wasn’t Halo” and left.
> > > > After that, when Halo 5 showed up with a gameplay format that was still definitely “not Halo”… many of those that left just didn’t buy it. They stayed away. Many of us who did buy Halo 5 bought it because, at the time, we’d buy anything with the Halo name on it.
> > > >
> > > > Sprint or no sprint, Halo 5 does not offer the experience that most people buying a Halo title are looking for. The easiest way to remedy this problem is to stop adding pieces of other games to Halo like they’re Lego bricks, and just follow the formula that made Halo the king of FPS gaming in the first place.
> > > >
> > > > That means no thrusting and no sprinting. It means putting advanced movement options back on the map in the form of mancannons, pickups, vehicles, grav lifts, and teleporters, and it means bringing the focus back to social play instead of emphasizing an industry copying hyper-competitive sandbox.
> > >
> > > Halo 5 has been said to have the highest concurrent players since Halo 3. This doesn’t mean it was super popular, but that more people came back month after month than Halo 4 did, relative to the population. Yet another nice strawman. You guys could work on a farm together.
> >
> > Nobody here is misrepresenting your argument, and insulting people who disagree with you doesn’t help your case in any way.
> >
> > A “one-time high in concurrent users” is an anecdote, and anecdotes are not useful for solving problems for many reasons.
> > - See here: https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/anecdotalIn this specific example, that “record user count” occurred after the following:
> > - Halo 5's Biggest-Ever Expansion Is Out Today as Game Goes Free for Limited Time - GameSpot - ^^^ The release of Warzone FF, immediately following a period where Halo 5 was free to play…Seeing a problem yet? We should be talking about overall player counts over the lifespan of the games, because that is relevant. By all accounts in that comparison, Halo 5 falls flat on it’s face against Halo 3. Halo 5 is currently sitting below the top 15 most played games on Xbox Live, whereas for the first two YEARS of Halo 3’s lifespan, it was battling for #1 with the brand new online CoD multiplayer offerings in CoD 4 and World at War.
>
> You are actually right. Halo 5 had the highest player retention. I misspoke earlier. Player retention is a very good metric for indicating success of a multiplayer shooter. Halo 3 was far more popular, but the market was less saturated. I don’t think there is a console shooter that has ever had the population of Halo 3. I guess I built my own straw-man. Is the farm hiring?
>
> Edit: My argument is not that Halo 5 is more popular than Halo 3 was, but that two years in there is more activity than Halo 4.

Oh, of course. Nobody is trying to say that Halo 5 is a worse game than Halo 4. I think most of us agree that Halo 5’s MP is much better than Halo 4’s for a multitude of reasons. The thing is… whatever changed between Halo 4 and 5 wasn’t enough to bring players back, and a lot changed. It’s up to speculation whether the poor launch offerings, sprint, thrusting, a bad story, or microtransactions are what scared people away from purchasing Halo 5. It’s obviously some combination of all of these things, but to what degree, who knows?

Also like the guy above said, player retention has been manipulated by daily login rewards. It’s not an accurate metric when the previous games didn’t use such a system.

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> 2535409816624774;14652:
> > 2535417761739301;14649:
> > > 2535409816624774;14648:
> > > > 2535417761739301;14647:
> > > > > 2535409816624774;14622:
> > > > > > 2533274815533909;14620:
> > > > > > > 2533274794648158;14616:
> > > > > > > > 2535409816624774;14615:
> > > > > > > > DOOM was not successful because it has little to no player base.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I find this logic silly because I can just point to H4’s population numbers and your “sprint makes Halo more successful” argument falls apart. It’s fine if you prefer sprint but there’s no need to make such claims. Player retention can fluctuate for an infinite number of reasons.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Well said
> > > > >
> > > > > Except it isn’t. Halo 4 flopped, but Halo 5 did not implementing the only mechanic that matters in this conversation. That is a nice fancy straw man,though. Almost fooled me for a second.
> > > >
> > > > http://www.vgchartz.com/game/82148/halo-5-guardians/ → 4.5M copies of Halo 5 soldhttp://www.vgchartz.com/game/51758/halo-4/ → **9.8M copies of Halo 4 sold.**Halo 5 did not sell even half as well as Halo 4 did. This argument is a straight up lie and people need to stop making it.
> > > > Halo’s largest drop in active players happened early in Halo 4’s history. People bought Halo 4, then decided that Halo 4 “wasn’t Halo” and left.
> > > > After that, when Halo 5 showed up with a gameplay format that was still definitely “not Halo”… many of those that left just didn’t buy it. They stayed away. Many of us who did buy Halo 5 bought it because, at the time, we’d buy anything with the Halo name on it.
> > > >
> > > > Sprint or no sprint, Halo 5 does not offer the experience that most people buying a Halo title are looking for. The easiest way to remedy this problem is to stop adding pieces of other games to Halo like they’re Lego bricks, and just follow the formula that made Halo the king of FPS gaming in the first place.
> > > >
> > > > That means no thrusting and no sprinting. It means putting advanced movement options back on the map in the form of mancannons, pickups, vehicles, grav lifts, and teleporters, and it means bringing the focus back to social play instead of emphasizing an industry copying hyper-competitive sandbox.
>
> Halo 3 was far more popular, but the market was less saturated

Saturated with MP FPS titles?, or just saturated with games in general?

Quick experiment. Check which franchises are beating Halo 5 now on the xbl most played list, and check to see if they had an earlier released title in that franchise out between 2006 and 2009 on Xbox 360. Because every time I do this experiment I see COD, Halo, Gears, GTA, Rainbow 6, Fallout/Elder Scrolls, Forza, Some Sports games (Fifa, Madden, etc) and Battlefield. All the same franchises from 2017 can be seen in 2007 and earlier. The additional games come in the form of Minecraft, Roblox, Rocket League, and ARK. The only 3 big new MP FPS titles being Destiny, Overwatch and Battlefront. 67% of the competition Halo 5 faces is the same as Halo 3. And Halo 3 did face challenges from other games. Medal of Honor, Half Life 2, Unreal Tournament 3, and even L4D.

So what games/franchises (or kind of games/franchises ) is it that makes the market more saturated today?

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> > > > > > > > > > > > 2535441687762024;14539:
> > > > > > > > > > > > A testament to why we need sprint is the Halo 3 playlist that was going on. It just doesn’t work in 2016/2017…
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > You’re seriously basing your opinion, just on one playlist, and not the actual game that wasn’t built around Sprint? Wow. Just, wow.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Stop bashing other peoples opinions because you dont agree. I, and a large majority of Halo fans, want sprint to stay based off of a poll 343i, the developers of Halo by the way, conducted.
> > > > > > > > > > I want it to stay because my favorite 3 games in the series have it and other PERSONAL reason surounding the feature.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Here are a couple more OPINIONS about the subject. Feel free to bash them if you want.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Does sprint make maps larger and give the illusion of speed while actually slowing down gameplay? Maybe, but who cares? The games are still fun.
> > > > > > > > > > Oh, you dont agree? Maybe because your OPINION differs from my own.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Does sprint allow people to get away and provide a more chaotic play environment? Maybe, but who cares? The games are still fun.
> > > > > > > > > > Oh, you dont agree? Maybe because your OPINION differs from my own.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > THANK YOU!!! Its legit so hard to just express OPINIONS nowadays… Ridiculous
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Disregarding the above heated discussion, would you be prepared to flesh your initial statement out?
> > > > > > > > Here are some questions I feel would help me understand what you built your opinion on:
> > > > > > > > 1: How is one playlist void of mechanics the game was built upon, an indication of why sprint is needed?
> > > > > > > > 2: How is the current year any justification of a game mechanic? Why doesn’t no-sprint work in the current year?
> > > > > > > > 3: Are you implying that removing sprint will revert Halo back to Halo 3 in its entirety?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Is this a better approach to understanding your statement? Which is essentially treycen’s initial goal, though a blunt approach.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I don’t find it difficult to express my opinions.
> > > > > > > > However sometimes I may find it hard to explain my opinions, why I think the way I do aboit something. Generally I keep quiet if I can’t explain my opinions.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > FallenKnight, I’ll get back to you sometime later.
> > >
> > > I’m stating that not having sprint in games nowadays is wrong.
> >
> > Why?
>
> It doesn’t feel right…

Doom as a 85-87 metacritic. Halo 5 has a 84. Doom has also sold at least 5 million copies. (PC digital = 2 million, PS4 disc = 2 million, XBone disc = 1 million. I’m missing PS4 and Xbone digital sales, so it could be higher). Which equals, if not out right beats, Halo 5, without the buzz of being 1) Halo, and 2) an exclusive franchise. Doom also won a ton of awards for its gameplay design (about 3x the amount of awards Halo 5 pulled). That’s not bad going for a franchise without sprint. And would suggest that the gaming community does not agree that “not having sprint is wrong”.

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> > > > > > > > 2533274794648158;14616:
> > > > > > > > > 2535409816624774;14615:
> > > > > > > > > DOOM was not successful because it has little to no player base.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I find this logic silly because I can just point to H4’s population numbers and your “sprint makes Halo more successful” argument falls apart. It’s fine if you prefer sprint but there’s no need to make such claims. Player retention can fluctuate for an infinite number of reasons.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Well said
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Except it isn’t. Halo 4 flopped, but Halo 5 did not implementing the only mechanic that matters in this conversation. That is a nice fancy straw man,though. Almost fooled me for a second.
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.vgchartz.com/game/82148/halo-5-guardians/ → 4.5M copies of Halo 5 soldhttp://www.vgchartz.com/game/51758/halo-4/ → **9.8M copies of Halo 4 sold.**Halo 5 did not sell even half as well as Halo 4 did. This argument is a straight up lie and people need to stop making it.
> > > > > Halo’s largest drop in active players happened early in Halo 4’s history. People bought Halo 4, then decided that Halo 4 “wasn’t Halo” and left.
> > > > > After that, when Halo 5 showed up with a gameplay format that was still definitely “not Halo”… many of those that left just didn’t buy it. They stayed away. Many of us who did buy Halo 5 bought it because, at the time, we’d buy anything with the Halo name on it.
> > > > >
> > > > > Sprint or no sprint, Halo 5 does not offer the experience that most people buying a Halo title are looking for. The easiest way to remedy this problem is to stop adding pieces of other games to Halo like they’re Lego bricks, and just follow the formula that made Halo the king of FPS gaming in the first place.
> > > > >
> > > > > That means no thrusting and no sprinting. It means putting advanced movement options back on the map in the form of mancannons, pickups, vehicles, grav lifts, and teleporters, and it means bringing the focus back to social play instead of emphasizing an industry copying hyper-competitive sandbox.
> >
> > Halo 3 was far more popular, but the market was less saturated
>
> Saturated with MP FPS titles?, or just saturated with games in general?
>
> Quick experiment. Check which franchises are beating Halo 5 now on the xbl most played list, and check to see if they had an earlier released title in that franchise out between 2006 and 2009 on Xbox 360. Because every time I do this experiment I see COD, Halo, Gears, GTA, Rainbow 6, Fallout/Elder Scrolls, Forza, Some Sports games (Fifa, Madden, etc) and Battlefield. All the same franchises from 2017 can be seen in 2007 and earlier. The additional games come in the form of Minecraft, Roblox, Rocket League, and ARK. The only 3 big new MP FPS titles being Destiny, Overwatch and Battlefront. 67% of the competition Halo 5 faces is the same as Halo 3. And Halo 3 did face challenges from other games. Medal of Honor, Half Life 2, Unreal Tournament 3, and even L4D.
>
> So what games/franchises (or kind of games/franchises ) is it that makes the market more saturated today?
>
>
>
>
> > 2535441687762024;14654:
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> > > > > > > > > > > > > 2535441687762024;14539:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > A testament to why we need sprint is the Halo 3 playlist that was going on. It just doesn’t work in 2016/2017…
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > You’re seriously basing your opinion, just on one playlist, and not the actual game that wasn’t built around Sprint? Wow. Just, wow.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Stop bashing other peoples opinions because you dont agree. I, and a large majority of Halo fans, want sprint to stay based off of a poll 343i, the developers of Halo by the way, conducted.
> > > > > > > > > > > I want it to stay because my favorite 3 games in the series have it and other PERSONAL reason surounding the feature.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Here are a couple more OPINIONS about the subject. Feel free to bash them if you want.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Does sprint make maps larger and give the illusion of speed while actually slowing down gameplay? Maybe, but who cares? The games are still fun.
> > > > > > > > > > > Oh, you dont agree? Maybe because your OPINION differs from my own.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Does sprint allow people to get away and provide a more chaotic play environment? Maybe, but who cares? The games are still fun.
> > > > > > > > > > > Oh, you dont agree? Maybe because your OPINION differs from my own.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > THANK YOU!!! Its legit so hard to just express OPINIONS nowadays… Ridiculous
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Disregarding the above heated discussion, would you be prepared to flesh your initial statement out?
> > > > > > > > > Here are some questions I feel would help me understand what you built your opinion on:
> > > > > > > > > 1: How is one playlist void of mechanics the game was built upon, an indication of why sprint is needed?
> > > > > > > > > 2: How is the current year any justification of a game mechanic? Why doesn’t no-sprint work in the current year?
> > > > > > > > > 3: Are you implying that removing sprint will revert Halo back to Halo 3 in its entirety?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Is this a better approach to understanding your statement? Which is essentially treycen’s initial goal, though a blunt approach.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I don’t find it difficult to express my opinions.
> > > > > > > > > However sometimes I may find it hard to explain my opinions, why I think the way I do aboit something. Generally I keep quiet if I can’t explain my opinions.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > FallenKnight, I’ll get back to you sometime later.
> > > >
> > > > I’m stating that not having sprint in games nowadays is wrong.
> > >
> > > Why?
> >
> > It doesn’t feel right…
>
> Doom as a 85-87 metacritic. Halo 5 has a 84. Doom has also sold at least 5 million copies. (PC digital = 2 million, PS4 disc = 2 million, XBone disc = 1 million. I’m missing PS4 and Xbone digital sales, so it could be higher). Which equals, if not out right beats, Halo 5, without the buzz of being 1) Halo, and 2) an exclusive franchise. Doom also won a ton of awards for its gameplay design (about 3x the amount of awards Halo 5 pulled). That’s not bad going for a franchise without sprint. And would suggest that the gaming community does not agree that “not having sprint is wrong”.

You have a lot of time on your hand, but I guess I have 14 days on Halo 5, so who am I to judge. I don’t know the exact numbers, but there are many big IPs such as Overwatch and Destiny, as well as Titanfall before that game dropped. There are also multiple Call of Duty games being played at any given time. I am referring to the overall landscape of multiplayer shooting games, which is definitely changing significantly.

14661

I am just going to point out that there have been two polls I have seen where abiities and sprint are favored among the Halo community. In fairness, one was after the beta, but only 11% disliked sprinting. I feel like these polls aren’t referenced enough, because clearly anti-sprint is a very vocal minority. I am sure the majority of Halo players preferring the mechanic means nothing, right?

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> 2535409816624774;14661:
> I am just going to point out that there have been two polls I have seen where abiities and sprint are favored among the Halo community. In fairness, one was after the beta, but only 11% disliked sprinting. I feel like these polls aren’t referenced enough, because clearly anti-sprint is a very vocal minority. I am sure the majority of Halo players preferring the mechanic means nothing, right?

Here’s the thing about surveys and polls; they can say and “prove” anything that the creator of said survey wants, from who they’re given to to how the questions themselves are worded. And this isn’t assuming that the creators are lying about the results at all. Remember when Breakout was “widely popular” by the community, specifically pros?

Case in point, you said those polls were opinions gathered by the Halo community. The current (then) Halo community. The people who clearly stuck through and played the newer Halos and follow Halo news by 343i. And even then, not absolutely everyone, just a sample size that may or may not be big enough. I was part of the beta but never received a survey, and I am much more active to Halo than the average user.

So if the poll was taken on Waypoint, right then and there, that’s a section of a very small community and is biased already, because the majority of people who regularly come to Waypoint agree with 343i’s decisions in the first place.

But the biggest problem is: What about the people who simply don’t like Halo anymore, and therefore don’t follow it? If they were upset enough about what happened to the franchise, they wouldn’t buy Halo 5, they wouldn’t visit Waypoint, they wouldn’t follow YouTubers that play current Halo, they probably don’t have MCC, and on some occasions they probably don’t have an Xbox anymore.

*“We asked this place full of current Halo fans if they liked current Halo and a wide majority said yes!”*Well of course they did, they’re still there. The people that don’t like current Halo wouldn’t be on the forums of current Halo.

It’s like going to Halo 4’s forums and going “Hey was Halo 4 a good game?” The people there would obviously say yes, because that’s where Halo 4 fans tend to hang out, not the people who disliked Halo 4.

It’s not only about who’s there, it’s about who’s not there.

14663

> 2535409816624774;14661:
> I am just going to point out that there have been two polls I have seen where abiities and sprint are favored among the Halo community. In fairness, one was after the beta, but only 11% disliked sprinting. I feel like these polls aren’t referenced enough, because clearly anti-sprint is a very vocal minority. I am sure the majority of Halo players preferring the mechanic means nothing, right?

And if people in the same poll had been in favour of Flinch over Descoping?

Consider that even as 11% disliked Sprint, it got nerfed a second time since Halo 4.

If I remember correctly, the last time polls were discussed, it got to “bias” talk.
Even then, was there any indication in that poll of how many would be fine with sprint missing if there was one or several “replacements”? Higher BMS over Sprint, and more different transport utilities on the maps? Something we’ve seen less of, atleast it feels like that. Perhaps along with a bump in the FoV?

See, the Flinch / Descope question gave two mechanical options.
The Sprint question was if you like sprinting in Halo. If you really want to stretch that question, then it gives one mechanical option, to having nothing at all replace it, just void of sprint.

Which do you prefer? Apples or Pears?
Do you like Oranges?

PS: That “what the majority wants” talk holds only so much water for you. Given enough changes based on majority interests, even you’ll quit at some point. Meaning, even without you saying a word, you’re not content with what the majority wants.
Because I seriously believe you’re here talking against your own self interests. I certainly am not.

14664

> 2533274833081329;14662:
> > 2535409816624774;14661:
> > I am just going to point out that there have been two polls I have seen where abiities and sprint are favored among the Halo community. In fairness, one was after the beta, but only 11% disliked sprinting. I feel like these polls aren’t referenced enough, because clearly anti-sprint is a very vocal minority. I am sure the majority of Halo players preferring the mechanic means nothing, right?
>
> Here’s the thing about surveys and polls; they can say and “prove” anything that the creator of said survey wants, from who they’re given to to how the questions themselves are worded. And this isn’t assuming that the creators are lying about the results at all. Remember when Breakout was “widely popular” by the community, specifically pros?
>
> Case in point, you said those polls were opinions gathered by the Halo community. The current (then) Halo community. The people who clearly stuck through and played the newer Halos and follow Halo news by 343i. And even then, not absolutely everyone, just a sample size that may or may not be big enough. I was part of the beta but never received a survey, and I am much more active to Halo than the average user.
>
> So if the poll was taken on Waypoint, right then and there, that’s a section of a very small community and is biased already, because the majority of people who regularly come to Waypoint agree with 343i’s decisions in the first place.
>
> But the biggest problem is: What about the people who simply don’t like Halo anymore, and therefore don’t follow it? If they were upset enough about what happened to the franchise, they wouldn’t buy Halo 5, they wouldn’t visit Waypoint, they wouldn’t follow YouTubers that play current Halo, they probably don’t have MCC, and on some occasions they probably don’t have an Xbox anymore.
>
> *“We asked this place full of current Halo fans if they liked current Halo and a wide majority said yes!”*Well of course they did, they’re still there. The people that don’t like current Halo wouldn’t be on the forums of current Halo.
>
> It’s like going to Halo 4’s forums and going “Hey was Halo 4 a good game?” The people there would obviously say yes, because that’s where Halo 4 fans tend to hang out, not the people who disliked Halo 4.
>
> It’s not only about who’s there, it’s about who’s not there.

I understand that polls aren’t representative of the entire community, and can sometimes be misleading. However, you are just filling in gaps of information with theory, instead of acknowledging that at a point in time where Halo 5 had a larger player base, a majority liked sprint. The alternative view would be to disregard what the majority of current players want in exchange to gamble with the idea that this mechanic is also what is causing no one to play the game. Polls are in no way a definitive portrait, but they should not just be disregarded entirely. Literally each one I found favored sprint.

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> 2533274795123910;14663:
> > 2535409816624774;14661:
> > I am just going to point out that there have been two polls I have seen where abiities and sprint are favored among the Halo community. In fairness, one was after the beta, but only 11% disliked sprinting. I feel like these polls aren’t referenced enough, because clearly anti-sprint is a very vocal minority. I am sure the majority of Halo players preferring the mechanic means nothing, right?
>
> PS: That “what the majority wants” talk holds only so much water for you. Given enough changes based on majority interests, even you’ll quit at some point. Meaning, even without you saying a word, you’re not content with what the majority wants.
> Because I seriously believe you’re here talking against your own self interests. I certainly am not.

I have no idea what that is supposed to mean.