The sprint discussion thread

> 2533274825830455;14522:
> > 2533274863544717;14521:
> > I don’t believe that videos like this are subjective. Yes, there are some subjective arguments, but the speed comparison of Halo 3 vs. Halo 5 isn’t one of them.
>
> I think it would do us all a favor to distinguish what exactly is and what isn’t subjective.
>
> Sure enough, the observation that map sizes have increased to counteract the speed increase brought by sprint is not subjective. Anyone can replicate the experiment in that video, and arrive at the same conclusion. However, what is subjective is whether this is, or isn’t a bad thing.
>
> We can discuss the effects of sprint on gameplay in an objective way. That’s productive, and important, and it helps us understand the mechanic, but it’s just cataloging facts and conjectures about sprint. Ultimately, we have to face the question: what does that all mean for the player experience? And this question has no right answer. It depends on what any one of us wants from the game.

It is interesting that sprint slows down gameplay, but I guess you are in a non-combative state for the most part. This is also conjecture, but I think that sprint has become so common in shooters, that it could hurt a game to not include it. It’s not a matter of whether or not sprint is a good mechanic, or that it speeds up gameplay, but it can help player movement feel more natural when coming from another game. Even as an avid Halo 3 player, as well as Halo 5, the Halo 3 throwback feels very slow. By definition, it isn’t, but a player coming from the more popular shooters may also think that way. It’s not that sprint is objectively good or bad, but that it is a logical way to attract players who might otherwise turn to Call of Duty or Destiny.

> 2535409816624774;14524:
> > 2533274825830455;14522:
> > > 2533274863544717;14521:
> > > I don’t believe that videos like this are subjective. Yes, there are some subjective arguments, but the speed comparison of Halo 3 vs. Halo 5 isn’t one of them.
> >
> > I think it would do us all a favor to distinguish what exactly is and what isn’t subjective.
> >
> > Sure enough, the observation that map sizes have increased to counteract the speed increase brought by sprint is not subjective. Anyone can replicate the experiment in that video, and arrive at the same conclusion. However, what is subjective is whether this is, or isn’t a bad thing.
> >
> > We can discuss the effects of sprint on gameplay in an objective way. That’s productive, and important, and it helps us understand the mechanic, but it’s just cataloging facts and conjectures about sprint. Ultimately, we have to face the question: what does that all mean for the player experience? And this question has no right answer. It depends on what any one of us wants from the game.
>
> It is interesting that sprint slows down gameplay, but I guess you are in a non-combative state for the most part. This is also conjecture, but I think that sprint has become so common in shooters, that it could hurt a game to not include it. It’s not a matter of whether or not sprint is a good mechanic, or that it speeds up gameplay, but it can help player movement feel more natural when coming from another game. Even as an avid Halo 3 player, as well as Halo 5, the Halo 3 throwback feels very slow. By definition, it isn’t, but a player coming from the more popular shooters may also think that way. It’s not that sprint is objectively good or bad, but that it is a logical way to attract players who might otherwise turn to Call of Duty or Destiny.

I’m skeptical whether adding sprint actually attracts significant numbers of players from other games. I haven’t come across any evidence that this would be the case, and with certainty, based on the population trends of Halo over the last few years, I can say that it hasn’t been enough to offset the number of players that moved away from Halo. So, the tactic doesn’t seem to have much going for it.It’s certainly not as logical as you think it is. It might be an appealing idea, but I don’t think it’s a logical one.

> 2533274825830455;14525:
> > 2535409816624774;14524:
> > > 2533274825830455;14522:
> > > > 2533274863544717;14521:
> > > > I don’t believe that videos like this are subjective. Yes, there are some subjective arguments, but the speed comparison of Halo 3 vs. Halo 5 isn’t one of them.
> > >
> > > I think it would do us all a favor to distinguish what exactly is and what isn’t subjective.
> > >
> > > Sure enough, the observation that map sizes have increased to counteract the speed increase brought by sprint is not subjective. Anyone can replicate the experiment in that video, and arrive at the same conclusion. However, what is subjective is whether this is, or isn’t a bad thing.
> > >
> > > We can discuss the effects of sprint on gameplay in an objective way. That’s productive, and important, and it helps us understand the mechanic, but it’s just cataloging facts and conjectures about sprint. Ultimately, we have to face the question: what does that all mean for the player experience? And this question has no right answer. It depends on what any one of us wants from the game.
> >
> > It is interesting that sprint slows down gameplay, but I guess you are in a non-combative state for the most part. This is also conjecture, but I think that sprint has become so common in shooters, that it could hurt a game to not include it. It’s not a matter of whether or not sprint is a good mechanic, or that it speeds up gameplay, but it can help player movement feel more natural when coming from another game. Even as an avid Halo 3 player, as well as Halo 5, the Halo 3 throwback feels very slow. By definition, it isn’t, but a player coming from the more popular shooters may also think that way. It’s not that sprint is objectively good or bad, but that it is a logical way to attract players who might otherwise turn to Call of Duty or Destiny.
>
> I’m skeptical whether adding sprint actually attracts significant numbers of players from other games. I haven’t come across any evidence that this would be the case, and with certainty, based on the population trends of Halo over the last few years, I can say that it hasn’t been enough to offset the number of players that moved away from Halo. So, the tactic doesn’t seem to have much going for it.It’s certainly not as logical as you think it is. It might be an appealing idea, but I don’t think it’s a logical one.

Neither of us know. I am speaking more anecdotally in my Halo 3 playlist comparison. If I were going to pick something mechanically that is similar to other shooters, movement would be one of the first things I would look at, just because it is something you are doing all the time. What do you think a more logical option would be to acclimate players that are used to other games? This is all under the assumption that Halo is not as popular as other shooters, and needs to take players from them.

> 2535409816624774;14526:
> What do you think a more logical option would be to acclimate players that are used to other games?

I don’t know. I think player behavior is extremely unpredictable and complex, and I don’t believe there’s any sure way of getting players of another game interested in your game. All I can think of is that being a copycat in a market full of copycats doesn’t help you stand out.

In other words, I have great advice for how to make a forgettable game with mediocre success, but no advice for how to make a popular game.

> 2533274825830455;14527:
> > 2535409816624774;14526:
> > What do you think a more logical option would be to acclimate players that are used to other games?
>
> I don’t know. I think player behavior is extremely unpredictable and complex, and I don’t believe there’s any sure way of getting players of another game interested in your game. All I can think of is that being a copycat in a market full of copycats doesn’t help you stand out.
>
> In other words, I have great advice for how to make a forgettable game with mediocre success, but no advice for how to make a popular game.

‘Think smaller and fail faster’.

That would be my advice.

I’ll always hold the belief that if Halo stuck to its identity instead of shamelessly copying mechanic and features from other franchises, it would be in a much better spot than it is today. I find the idea of attracting other players to your game by adding trendy mechanics extremely flawed, because whether someone’s a Halo fan, a CoD fan, or a MOBA fan, they just want to play Halo and the specific experience it provides. Back in the day, CoD fans didn’t hop on Halo to get their CoD fix, they hopped on Halo to experience… Halo. No other game offered an experience quite like it. Years back, I absolutely loved CoD4, but I never thought to myself “Man, recharging shields and no sprint would make this game so much better!” Sprint’s stop-and-go gun play works within the CoD experience and compliments the gameplay. But in Halo, it is detrimental.

What I have always warned against is the idea that you can change one aspect of Halo’s mechanics while leaving the others perfectly preserved and unaffected. It doesn’t work like that, and this is what both many players and the developers don’t seem to understand; this is why teamshot Halo exists, among other problems. Look at Shadowrun for instance - it’s a game that is wildly different from core Halo, but it takes care of itself by fully immersing its gameplay in the system, rather than take the base gameplay of one thing and trying to cram it into the same box with another totally different concept.

Halo needs to stop trying to be five things at once.

> 2535409816624774;14524:
> > 2533274825830455;14522:
> > > 2533274863544717;14521:
> > > I don’t believe that videos like this are subjective. Yes, there are some subjective arguments, but the speed comparison of Halo 3 vs. Halo 5 isn’t one of them.
> >
> > I think it would do us all a favor to distinguish what exactly is and what isn’t subjective.
> >
> > Sure enough, the observation that map sizes have increased to counteract the speed increase brought by sprint is not subjective. Anyone can replicate the experiment in that video, and arrive at the same conclusion. However, what is subjective is whether this is, or isn’t a bad thing.
> >
> > We can discuss the effects of sprint on gameplay in an objective way. That’s productive, and important, and it helps us understand the mechanic, but it’s just cataloging facts and conjectures about sprint. Ultimately, we have to face the question: what does that all mean for the player experience? And this question has no right answer. It depends on what any one of us wants from the game.
>
> It is interesting that sprint slows down gameplay, but I guess you are in a non-combative state for the most part. This is also conjecture, but I think that sprint has become so common in shooters, that it could hurt a game to not include it.

(Bold) well the new Doom doesn’t have a sprint animation and it’s been hailed for it’s gameplay, especially the single player. Overwatch doesn’t have the sprint animation either (minus 1 character) and that game is mega popular. Not saying no sprint animation is the reason, but just those two games alone show that if the game is done right, people will want to play it.

Also just want to say, as an original Doom player, I absolutely loved the new Doom. The multiplayer was somewhat lacking and not done quite right IMO, but the overall game design, the feeling, look, sounds, everything felt like the original Doom. To me Doom is exactly how you we introduce a franchise to a new generation but remain faithful to the original game and fans. I haven’t met/talked too a single person who loved the original Doom and doesn’t like the new one. Highly recommend playing it, but especially if your an original Doom player.

To me games like Doom and OverWatch are prime examples that a sprint animation isn’t needed in your game for it to successful. I’m not totally against Halo 5 movement system but too me it’s too complex now. I have multiple friends who have all said this to me. The beauty of Halo before was that it was accessible to anyone, but it was difficult to master. Now between sprinting, thrusting and all the Spartan abilities, there is just a pile more to learn and remember. Just too much for the average player I feel.

The way Halo is going one if two things will happen,

  • Halo takes a chance and goes back to more of a Halo 1-3 style gameplay. Maybe with a clamber type feature, equipment and/or AAs as map pick up items and see how it’s received or - Halo continues down the road it’s going which the majority of people and the gaming world see it as an average series with some high points at time.People can say all they want, but Halo isn’t the “it” game anymore, very far from it actually. I can barely get any of my friends to even look at it, let alone play it anymore as they all say it’s doesn’t feel like Halo anymore.

Halo needs to stop adding unnecessary things, like the ADS style zooming animation for example. It adds nothing and takes away from Halo uniqueness. All it does is make Halo blend into its competition. One could easily argue that the Sprint animation does the same. It doesn’t matter if you like sprint or don’t like it. It doesn’t matter if you like this feature or that feature… What matters is, is x right for Halo. Does x feature make our game stand out? Or are we just going with the industry Norm? By us adding x, will this still feel like Halo? Things like this. Sprint to me definitely falls under these questions.

If it was me I would definitely go back and try a Halo 1 2 3 Style and see how it’s received. What does 343I/MS really have to lose let’s be honest, it’s one game. I highly doubt it’s going to sell any worse so why not try.

> 2533274816299345;14523:
> > 2533274863544717;14521:
> > > 2533274816299345;14519:
> > > I like the animation. Idc about movement speed, other than Halo 3’s “im a superhuman with a max speed of a dead turtle!”. Call that an FOV issue or whatever but its awful to me.
> >
> > There really is nothing I can say if all you want is cool animations, and don’t care about movement. Except maybe would you still like it if there was an animation of your arms going back and forth, but it wasn’t necessarily signifying sprint? I don’t know. I think this just kind of sums up why a lot of players new and old desire to keep sprint. They don’t care they just want to look and feel like a Spartan, and they are used to the mechanic being in other games so why not this one too.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > 2533274816299345;14519:
> > > In all honesty this debate is almost completely subjective. I like sprint for my reasons. Other people like it for other reasons. Are they just illusions to make us feel a certain way? Maybe. I really dont care. You dont want sprint in for certain reason. Someone else may not want it in for a completely different reason. No one is correct and ultimately its up to 343i and im pretty sure they have already made up their mind one way or the other.
> >
> > Once again we are going back to you not really caring. I didn’t really care for the longest time either that’s why I hadn’t really chimed in on this debate until recently. I don’t believe that videos like this are subjective. Yes, there are some subjective arguments, but the speed comparison of Halo 3 vs. Halo 5 isn’t one of them.
> >
> > The last sentence is actually the most important one of your post in my opinion. Whether or not that 343 has made up their minds at this point there is always the opportunity to change them. Haven’t we seen that with a lot of games, heck even with the XB1 when it first came out? MS changed their minds due to community feedback. It’s important we keep this discussion going, and all others when it comes to shapping Halo.
>
> I really dont really care either way. I prefer that they keep sprint to stay in line with my favorite game in the series but that is a personal request. Like i said. I will buy it and play it either way because i love the series. Change is good. Its also bad. There is nothing that they can do to please everyone at once besides making either multiple games or mulitiple, and drastically different, playlists. Both options stretch the already lower population pretty thin. I really want Halo to be on top again and have that Halo 3 population but i, sadly, dont believe that it will ever happen again.

I agree with you for the the most part. I have never had a problem with sprint and Halo 4 is my favorite of the series; but I have started to doubt if sprint is necessary. I have two reasons:
(1) Why not just increase base movement speed. No extra button and it’s consistent with my lore argument(why can’t Spartans move fast?).
**(2)**The maps are stretched to account for sprint; meaning, only an illusion of a faster paced game. Actually slightly slower paced because a player can’t shoot and sprint at the same time.

Having said everything wrong with sprint, I’m actually like you about it. It feels faster paced and I like being a Spartan that can actually run. I literally just started to change my mind about sprint. Why shouldn’t we be able to run and shoot at the same time? I’m not against moving fast but I am against, not being able to shoot while moving.
I was just playing Halo 5 custom games. I made a mode with no Sprint, Thrusters, Ground Pound, or Charge. I kept Clamber, Stabilizers, and added 140% movement speed. It was awsome and without being able to sprint, it still felt fast. The movement speed was classic but still made me feel fast like a Spartan should. I would love to see Halo 6 have that kind of movement. Maybe only 120-130% of movement speed(140% could get a little insane). Still feels modern with Stabilizer and Clamber, but with faster paced, classic movement.

> 2533274806427910;14513:
> > 2535416616313329;14508:
> > **(1)**No facts, just opinion. Your post is an example of the “weak” arguments I was talking about. “The fact is, it doesn’t belong in a game with slow kill-times. End of discussion.” No facts, all opinion. As usual, expresses opinion as fact.
>
> It wasn’t even an argument to begin with, because that “opinion” actually holds much more water than the “lore” and “feelings” nonsense people like you try to throw at me.
>
> It might “feel” like Classic Halo to you, but it’s most likely because you don’t pay attention on how differently the game plays in hindsight, compared to previous Halo titles. Just because it has a few little elements from Classic Halo, doesn’t mean, “oh, this game feels like Halo because it’s got shieldzz11!” Who cares if feeling is subjective? This might be a shock to everyone here, since we like to think that being “subjective” about everything makes us somehow immune to being wrong, but opinions can still be wrong, so it doesn’t matter if it’s all subjective, or not.

I’d just like to point out that one cannot, by definition, be wrong about something that is subjective since being wrong implies the existence of some objective truth. What one can do, is mistake an objective statement for a subjective one. However, just as well one can mistake a subjective statement for an objective one, and you appear to be quilty of this.

Your “gameplay” nonsense only holds more water than the “lore” nonsense so far as one agrees with you on what makes the game fun. If someone has a different idea, they might not find your nonsense any more convincing than their own.

> 2533274825830455;14532:
> > 2533274806427910;14513:
> > > 2535416616313329;14508:
> > > **(1)**No facts, just opinion. Your post is an example of the “weak” arguments I was talking about. “The fact is, it doesn’t belong in a game with slow kill-times. End of discussion.” No facts, all opinion. As usual, expresses opinion as fact.
> >
> > It wasn’t even an argument to begin with, because that “opinion” actually holds much more water than the “lore” and “feelings” nonsense people like you try to throw at me.
> >
> > It might “feel” like Classic Halo to you, but it’s most likely because you don’t pay attention on how differently the game plays in hindsight, compared to previous Halo titles. Just because it has a few little elements from Classic Halo, doesn’t mean, “oh, this game feels like Halo because it’s got shieldzz11!” Who cares if feeling is subjective? This might be a shock to everyone here, since we like to think that being “subjective” about everything makes us somehow immune to being wrong, but opinions can still be wrong, so it doesn’t matter if it’s all subjective, or not.
>
> I’d just like to point out that one cannot, by definition, be wrong about something that is subjective since being wrong implies the existence of some objective truth. What one can do, is mistake an objective statement for a subjective one. However, just as well one can mistake a subjective statement for an objective one, and you appear to be quilty of this.
>
> Your “gameplay” nonsense only holds more water than the “lore” nonsense so far as one agrees with you on what makes the game fun. If someone has a different idea, they might not find your nonsense any more convincing than their own.

Just because opinions aren’t factually based, doesn’t mean that they still can’t possibly be wrong, or at least asinine and stupid. Saying, “I believe the Moon is made from cheese, because it has holes in it” is moronic, and it’s a well-known, well-researched fact that it’s not. Opinions shouldn’t be used to shield someone from debating about something.

No, my gameplay “nonsense” doesn’t hold more water than the lore drivel people use to justify mechanics which clearly don’t belong in Halo, just because someone agrees with me. No offense, but you, of all people, should know how ridiculous that assessment is. It’s their own problem if they don’t find my “nonsense” convincing; if they realized what Spartans were capable of outside the games, the lore argument falls apart immediately. To add more salt to the wound, it’s incredibly easy to turn their lore BS against themselves.

Removing Sprint for gameplay reasons objectively holds more water than keeping Sprint in the game because of “immersion”, “lore”, and “super-soldier” - those are subjective arguments which are completely invalid. When Bungie made Halos 1-3, they weren’t concern with this nonsense because gameplay was obviously more important than bright colors and “feeling like a Spartan”.

Im indifferent to it

> 2533274806427910;14533:
> Just because opinions aren’t factually based, doesn’t mean that they still can’t possibly be wrong, or at least asinine and stupid. Saying, “I believe the Moon is made from cheese, because it has holes in it” is moronic, and it’s a well-known, well-researched fact that it’s not. Opinions shouldn’t be used to shield someone from debating about something.

You still don’t understand. Opinions can be wrong, but only when they concern an objective question. “Moon is made from cheese” is wrong because it contradicts a commonly agreed upon definitions of cheese and the moon, and our knowledge of the geology of the moon.

However, when someone says, for example, “sprint belongs in Halo because it makes me feel like a Spartan”, they are not wrong. They are making a statement which is neither right or wrong, because it doesn’t make any assertions that are falsifiable based on some commonly agreed upon definitions. The same goes for your statement “[sprint] doesn’t belong in a game with slow kill-times”, which you asserted as “fact”, despite there being nothing factual about this statement. This statement is neither right or wrong. It is entirely subjective, and not factual.

> 2533274806427910;14533:
> No, my gameplay “nonsense” doesn’t hold more water than the lore drivel people use to justify mechanics which clearly don’t belong in Halo, just because someone agrees with me. No offense, but you, of all people, should know how ridiculous that assessment is. It’s their own problem if they don’t find my “nonsense” convincing; if they realized what Spartans were capable of outside the games, the lore argument falls apart immediately. To add more salt to the wound, it’s incredibly easy to turn their lore BS against themselves.

You should try to understand the importance of the framework in which an argument is being judged. When someone asserts “a super soldier should be able to sprint”, you can pick any number of responses:

  • “Yes, sounds entirely reasonable.” - “They’re super soldiers, so they should be able to maintain accuracy at maximum speed.” - "They’re entirely fictional creatures, so what they should be able to do is completely arbitrary."Believe it or not, all these responses are entirely reasonable, and justifiable, in their own framework. Response (1.) is the response from a person who has decided to work in the same framework as the person who made the original assertion. Because the fiction is entirely arbitrary, one can simply declare that Spartans should have some limitations of humans, among which is the inability to maintain perfect aim at maximum speed. This is the framework of response (1.). Response (2.) simply declares a framework for the fictional universe where Spartans are not bound by these limitations. Response (3.) is indifferent to how the rules of the fictional universe should work.

None of these stances is inferior to any of the others in objective sense. All they are are reflections of what the person in question cares about. Everyone chooses between them based on what sounds the most appealing to them, but there exists no unique, objective criterion to choose between these options.

> 2533274806427910;14533:
> Removing Sprint for gameplay reasons objectively holds more water than keeping Sprint in the game because of “immersion”, “lore”, and “super-soldier” - those are subjective arguments which are completely invalid. When Bungie made Halos 1-3, they weren’t concern with this nonsense because gameplay was obviously more important than bright colors and “feeling like a Spartan”.

The gameplay reasons are subjective arguments, too. For example, “gameplay should maximise the skill gap” is a subjective statement. A person who makes such a statement thinks in the framework that the game is a challenge to be mastered, and the more there is to master, the better. However, just as little as you might care about how Spartans should represent human capabilities, someone might care about how much of a challenge the game should be. In their framework, this statement might be irrelevant, and therefore ultimately unconvincing. Certainly, it’s no more objective than any of the others, again, because not everyone considers skill an important aspect of the game.

> 2535416616313329;14531:
> > 2533274816299345;14523:
> > > 2533274863544717;14521:
> > > > 2533274816299345;14519:
> > > > I like the animation. Idc about movement speed, other than Halo 3’s “im a superhuman with a max speed of a dead turtle!”. Call that an FOV issue or whatever but its awful to me.
>
> I agree with you for the the most part. I have never had a problem with sprint and Halo 4 is my favorite of the series; but I have started to doubt if sprint is necessary. I have two reasons:
> (1) Why not just increase base movement speed. No extra button and it’s consistent with my lore argument(why can’t Spartans move fast?).
> **(2)**The maps are stretched to account for sprint; meaning, only an illusion of a faster paced game. Actually slightly slower paced because a player can’t shoot and sprint at the same time.
>
> Having said everything wrong with sprint, I’m actually like you about it. It feels faster paced and I like being a Spartan that can actually run. I literally just started to change my mind about sprint. Why shouldn’t we be able to run and shoot at the same time? I’m not against moving fast but I am against, not being able to shoot while moving.
> I was just playing Halo 5 custom games. I made a mode with no Sprint, Thrusters, Ground Pound, or Charge. I kept Clamber, Stabilizers, and added 140% movement speed. It was awsome and without being able to sprint, it still felt fast. The movement speed was classic but still made me feel fast like a Spartan should. I would love to see Halo 6 have that kind of movement. Maybe only 120-130% of movement speed(140% could get a little insane). Still feels modern with Stabilizer and Clamber, but with faster paced, classic movement.

I think that an FoV slider is all that is needed to fix this problem. Halo 3 is the infamous example, but in reality all the Halo games have a pretty low FoV, hovering around 70 degrees. Let us move that up to 90+, and I think the “it feels slow” argument goes away. In my experience, anything over 100 is actually overwhelming because everything seems to be moving so slowly.

The problem with moving towards a “increase base movement speed to account for map size” approach is that it forces a weapon sandbox rebalance according to map size. This usually gives greater prevalence to mid-long range engagements, and forces close range weapons to become OP to compensate. Halo 5’s Shotgun is a perfect example. Maybe a base movement speed increase is a good thing, but FoV should be the first step. Movement acceleration is another thing that doesn’t get brought up as much as it should. Strafing in Halo 5 seems so useless, and I think that it’s largely due to Thruster being added. IMO, it should be removed. Stabilizers, Clamber, and Ground Pound all should stay, I think they feel good.

IMO, the best feeling Halo game released in the last couple of years is the DOOM multiplayer. Obviously there are parts of it that wouldn’t transition well to a Halo game, but the general movement is streets ahead of Halo 5. I think that Clamber is implemented better, and the double jump is a really interesting tool that I think could work really well in a Halo game.

> 2533274815533909;14530:
> > 2535409816624774;14524:
> > > 2533274825830455;14522:
> > > > 2533274863544717;14521:
> > > > I don’t believe that videos like this are subjective. Yes, there are some subjective arguments, but the speed comparison of Halo 3 vs. Halo 5 isn’t one of them.
> > >
> > > I think it would do us all a favor to distinguish what exactly is and what isn’t subjective.
> > >
> > > Sure enough, the observation that map sizes have increased to counteract the speed increase brought by sprint is not subjective. Anyone can replicate the experiment in that video, and arrive at the same conclusion. However, what is subjective is whether this is, or isn’t a bad thing.
> > >
> > > We can discuss the effects of sprint on gameplay in an objective way. That’s productive, and important, and it helps us understand the mechanic, but it’s just cataloging facts and conjectures about sprint. Ultimately, we have to face the question: what does that all mean for the player experience? And this question has no right answer. It depends on what any one of us wants from the game.
> >
> > It is interesting that sprint slows down gameplay, but I guess you are in a non-combative state for the most part. This is also conjecture, but I think that sprint has become so common in shooters, that it could hurt a game to not include it.
>
> (Bold) well the new Doom doesn’t have a sprint animation and it’s been hailed for it’s gameplay, especially the single player. Overwatch doesn’t have the sprint animation either (minus 1 character) and that game is mega popular. Not saying no sprint animation is the reason, but just those two games alone show that if the game is done right, people will want to play it.
>
> Also just want to say, as an original Doom player, I absolutely loved the new Doom. The multiplayer was somewhat lacking and not done quite right IMO, but the overall game design, the feeling, look, sounds, everything felt like the original Doom. To me Doom is exactly how you we introduce a franchise to a new generation but remain faithful to the original game and fans. I haven’t met/talked too a single person who loved the original Doom and doesn’t like the new one. Highly recommend playing it, but especially if your an original Doom player.
>
> To me games like Doom and OverWatch are prime examples that a sprint animation isn’t needed in your game for it to successful. I’m not totally against Halo 5 movement system but too me it’s too complex now. I have multiple friends who have all said this to me. The beauty of Halo before was that it was accessible to anyone, but it was difficult to master. Now between sprinting, thrusting and all the Spartan abilities, there is just a pile more to learn and remember. Just too much for the average player I feel.
>
> The way Halo is going one if two things will happen,
>
>
> - Halo takes a chance and goes back to more of a Halo 1-3 style gameplay. Maybe with a clamber type feature, equipment and/or AAs as map pick up items and see how it’s received or - Halo continues down the road it’s going which the majority of people and the gaming world see it as an average series with some high points at time.People can say all they want, but Halo isn’t the “it” game anymore, very far from it actually. I can barely get any of my friends to even look at it, let alone play it anymore as they all say it’s doesn’t feel like Halo anymore.
>
> Halo needs to stop adding unnecessary things, like the ADS style zooming animation for example. It adds nothing and takes away from Halo uniqueness. All it does is make Halo blend into its competition. One could easily argue that the Sprint animation does the same. It doesn’t matter if you like sprint or don’t like it. It doesn’t matter if you like this feature or that feature… What matters is, is x right for Halo. Does x feature make our game stand out? Or are we just going with the industry Norm? By us adding x, will this still feel like Halo? Things like this. Sprint to me definitely falls under these questions.
>
> If it was me I would definitely go back and try a Halo 1 2 3 Style and see how it’s received. What does 343I/MS really have to lose let’s be honest, it’s one game. I highly doubt it’s going to sell any worse so why not try.

I wouldn’t say that overwatch is a fair comparison, or the DOOM was successful at all. I couldn’t find games within the first two weeks. Obviously, we can’t say this is based on movement systems, but it still didn’t prove that an old schoolish arena game is clearly superior over games with sprint. I don’t think there is anything I can add that I haven’t said already on this thread, but I believe that sprint was a good idea to implement based on market trends and the relative popularity of Halo compared to other games. There are many factors at play when predicting a game’s success.

> 2533274825830455;14535:
> > 2533274806427910;14533:
> > (snip)
>
> (snip)

It being “entirely” subjective doesn’t justify said “opinion”. Halo is an Arena/Squad FPS hybrid game, not a simulator. Just because both sides may be, by definition, subjective, doesn’t mean that the mechanics that noticeably affect how the game is played shouldn’t be objectively analyzed.

> You should try to understand the importance of the framework in which an argument is being judged.

I don’t have an obligation to understand, or care about someone’s argumentative framework, especially if it boils down to “you need to adapt”. And it goes both ways, too.

> All they are are reflections of what the person in question cares about. Everyone chooses between them based on what sounds the most appealing to them, but there exists no unique, objective criterion to choose between these options.

Exactly, they are just reflections. It doesn’t make the notion that Sprint being in the game because “we play as super-soldiers”, any less of a poorly-constructed framework in my eyes because it doesn’t take gameplay, map design, and flow within the game into consideration whatsoever.

> The gameplay reasons are subjective arguments, too.

Though not all of them are subjective. It’s a fact that Sprint causes players to avoid death easily, thus slowing down the game. It’s a fact that Sprint causes developers to make maps bigger, and don’t use 1:1 remakes from previous games to disprove that. It’s a fact that Sprint causes randomness in the game because now you can’t anticipate where players might go, thus affecting how the match flows. It’s a fact that Sprint affects how players are able to exploit the spawn system. All of these are objective because they have empirical evidence, and validated reasoning to back them.

> …just as little as you might care about how Spartans should represent human capabilities, someone might care about how much of a challenge the game should be. In their framework, this statement might be irrelevant, and therefore ultimately unconvincing. Certainly, it’s no more objective than any of the others, again, because not everyone considers skill an important aspect of the game.

Skill has been a part of Halo since the first game. Just because a few people might not consider it an important aspect of the game, doesn’t mean that framework does not have a factual basis. Halo was one of the most popular games during the MLG during the Halo 2-3 years because they took skill (not nearly as much as CE, but that’s a different topic).

A testament to why we need sprint is the Halo 3 playlist that was going on. It just doesn’t work in 2016/2017…

> 2535441687762024;14539:
> A testament to why we need sprint is the Halo 3 playlist that was going on. It just doesn’t work in 2016/2017…

You’re seriously basing your opinion, just on one playlist, and not the actual game that wasn’t built around Sprint? Wow. Just, wow.

> 2535441687762024;14539:
> A testament to why we need sprint is the Halo 3 playlist that was going on. It just doesn’t work in 2016/2017…

Why doesn’t it work? You didn’t really explain that important part.

It’s about as valid as me saying “A testament to why we need to remove sprint is Halo 5’s Arena in its entirety”

> 2533274806427910;14540:
> > 2535441687762024;14539:
> > A testament to why we need sprint is the Halo 3 playlist that was going on. It just doesn’t work in 2016/2017…
>
> You’re seriously basing your opinion, just on one playlist, and not the actual game that wasn’t built around Sprint? Wow. Just, wow.

Stop bashing other peoples opinions because you dont agree. I, and a large majority of Halo fans, want sprint to stay based off of a poll 343i, the developers of Halo by the way, conducted.
I want it to stay because my favorite 3 games in the series have it and other PERSONAL reason surounding the feature.

Here are a couple more OPINIONS about the subject. Feel free to bash them if you want.

Does sprint make maps larger and give the illusion of speed while actually slowing down gameplay? Maybe, but who cares? The games are still fun.
Oh, you dont agree? Maybe because your OPINION differs from my own.

Does sprint allow people to get away and provide a more chaotic play environment? Maybe, but who cares? The games are still fun.
Oh, you dont agree? Maybe because your OPINION differs from my own.

> 2533274816299345;14542:
> > 2533274806427910;14540:
> > > 2535441687762024;14539:
> > > A testament to why we need sprint is the Halo 3 playlist that was going on. It just doesn’t work in 2016/2017…
> >
> > You’re seriously basing your opinion, just on one playlist, and not the actual game that wasn’t built around Sprint? Wow. Just, wow.
>
> Stop bashing other peoples opinions because you dont agree. I, and a large majority of Halo fans, want sprint to stay based off of a poll 343i, the developers of Halo by the way, conducted.
> I want it to stay because my favorite 3 games in the series have it and other PERSONAL reason surounding the feature.
>
> Here are a couple more OPINIONS about the subject. Feel free to bash them if you want.
>
> Does sprint make maps larger and give the illusion of speed while actually slowing down gameplay? Maybe, but who cares? The games are still fun.
> Oh, you dont agree? Maybe because your OPINION differs from my own.
>
> Does sprint allow people to get away and provide a more chaotic play environment? Maybe, but who cares? The games are still fun.
> Oh, you dont agree? Maybe because your OPINION differs from my own.

Stop posting and use your brain for a second. I didn’t bash his opinion, I just thought it was silly that he came to the conclusion that Halo needs Sprint based solely on the fact that he played a playlist on a game that was BUILT for Sprint. His opinion would be more justifiable if he actually played a game that wasn’t built around Sprint.

The fact that the maps ARE larger and Sprint actually slows down the game are facts, not opinions. I’m not saying people shouldn’t enjoy having Sprint in the game, I’m pointing out its obviously objective flaws that people seem to ignore. People in favor of Sprint want a faster game, yet it actually slows down the very game that they think is fast-paced because of it.

Once again, those are true. I don’t care if you enjoy it or not, I simply don’t.