The sprint discussion thread

Games Halo 5: Guardians
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> > > > With the proposed changes, people would no longer be rewarded for sprinting as often as possible, and would instead be incentivised to carefully consider when to use sprint and when remain weapon-at-the-ready.
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> So what’d be left of sprint’s usability is essentialy a transport aspect in smaller areas, corridors and similar locations. Couple that with an assumption that map size could be decreased.
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> Feels like we’re one step short of removing it altogether.

As it should be, I don’t think it should be the first thing you do whenever you don’t immediately spot any hostiles.

You forget that with teammates, there’s a lot you can know about where an ememy is and where an ememy isn’t. It’s all part of knowing and controlling the map, an essential part of Halo’s design. You don’t have that luxury in FFA, but it’s always been a haven for chaos.

Point being, if you know your stuff, you’ll know when it’s safe to hit sprint to catch up other your team, make a run for a weapon, or take a shot at flanking your opponents.

I don’t want sprint to be gone from Halo, I just think it needs to fit instead of sticking out like a sore thumb.

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> > > > > With the proposed changes, people would no longer be rewarded for sprinting as often as possible, and would instead be incentivised to carefully consider when to use sprint and when remain weapon-at-the-ready.
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> >
> > So what’d be left of sprint’s usability is essentialy a transport aspect in smaller areas, corridors and similar locations. Couple that with an assumption that map size could be decreased.
> >
> > Feels like we’re one step short of removing it altogether.
>
> As it should be, I don’t think it should be the first thing you do whenever you don’t immediately spot any hostiles.
>
> You forget that with teammates, there’s a lot you can know about where an ememy is and where an ememy isn’t. It’s all part of knowing and controlling the map, an essential part of Halo’s design. You don’t have that luxury in FFA, but it’s always been a haven for chaos.
>
> Point being, if you know your stuff, you’ll know when it’s safe to hit sprint to catch up other your team, make a run for a weapon, or take a shot at flanking your opponents.
>
> I don’t want sprint to be gone from Halo, I just think it needs to fit instead of sticking out like a sore thumb.

So what exactly in that case does sprint offer other than, what I see as an artificial risk/reward? Flanking, running for a weapon etc is nothing sprint suddenly introduced to the game.

And why shouldn’t you maximise movement when you do not see an enemy? Seeing as Halo is quite a movement oriented game. Why shouldn’t games strive to make their mechanics as useful as possible?

Faster movement is achievable through faster BMS, which it already is either way, anfd in the instances where you want even faster traversal of certain areas there are plenty of alternatives to allow a faster transition of a specific length/area.

None, or atleast most of which come with far less of a headache than sprint.

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> > > Honestly at this point I just want sprint, ground pound (melee latency it causes), spartan charge (I understand they’re trying to bandaid the double melee problem but they should just remove sprint),and ads (it doesn’t feel haloish as subjective a statement that is) gone.I don’t care about slide,thrust,clamber,or stabilizers.
> >
> > Clamber: Removes skill jumps. OK. So, in classic Halo, there were usually a few ways to get to power weapons, but there was almost always a quicker way of getting to them (or a power up or a map control position etc) by skill jumping. Now, with Halo 5, that is gone due to clamber. Next, all walls need to be higher so you cannot clamber over them. In classic games, there were walls high enough to nade over or jump and shoot (not jump over). Now with clamber +thrust, these are gone.
>
> Clamber can easily be fixed by simply not making it a requirement to get anywhere. Reduce the walls anyway, and then slow down the animation for Clamber, and also tighten the amount of room needed for Clamber to activate.
>
> That way, there’s a small skill gap for those who can grenade jump or crouch jump or the sort and never slow down, but those who can’t have an alternate method but puts them at a disadvantage because they can’t shoot while clambering.

But why would we want to keep any version of Clamber to begin with? I’ve never really understood this attitude that whenever there’s a mechanic in the game which is fundamentally detrimental to the depth of gameplay, someone always suggests “Oh, just nerf it so that people want to use it less”. And the problem here is: there is no middle ground. Either you nerf it to oblivion to the point that it practically doesn’t exist in the game, or there will always be some benefit to using it, and so it is still a problem.

For example, let’s consider this suggestion about Clamber. First of all, neither reducing jump distances, nor making the animation longer address the main issues, which are that Clamber makes any jump easier to execute, and that there will always exist jumps which can only be executed with Clamber. The Clamber animation would at the very least be slowed down so much that you’d be better off just letting yourself fall than use Clamber whenever there are enemies around. After all, if there’s a good chance of surviving an encounter after the animation, then the animation clearly isn’t enough of a detriment.

If Clamber was nerfed to the extent that its problems became practically nonexistent, people would almost never use it because failing would often be faster, and almost always safer, and using it you would be stuck in an excruciatingly long (and necessarily very awkward looking) climbing animation. And if Clamber is almost never used, why have it in the game to begin with?

As you might be able to tell, I don’t see any other solution to Clamber than removing it. It has nothing to offer to gameplay, and therefore it doesn’t belong there.

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> > > > > > With the proposed changes, people would no longer be rewarded for sprinting as often as possible, and would instead be incentivised to carefully consider when to use sprint and when remain weapon-at-the-ready.
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> So what exactly in that case does sprint offer other than, what I see as an artificial risk/reward? Flanking, running for a weapon etc is nothing sprint suddenly introduced to the game.
>
> And why shouldn’t you maximise movement when you do not see an enemy? Seeing as Halo is quite a movement oriented game. Why shouldn’t games strive to make their mechanics as useful as possible?
>
> Faster movement is achievable through faster BMS, which it already is either way, anfd in the instances where you want even faster traversal of certain areas there are plenty of alternatives to allow a faster transition of a specific length/area.
>
> None, or atleast most of which come with far less of a headache than sprint.

Sprint adds as much as 343 wants it to add. Currently, it could be able argued that it’s not much at all, apart from enabling abilities like slide and charge, as well as allowing for longer jumps.

The point to limiting the usefulness of an ability is balance. This thread is testament that a sizeable portion of the community feels that sprint upsets the balance and feel of Halo; I’m just trying to offer a middle ground.

I’m all for the faster base movement speed instead, I just don’t see it happening with 343 at the helm.

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> > > > > > > With the proposed changes, people would no longer be rewarded for sprinting as often as possible, and would instead be incentivised to carefully consider when to use sprint and when remain weapon-at-the-ready.
> > > > > >
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> >
> > So what exactly in that case does sprint offer other than, what I see as an artificial risk/reward? Flanking, running for a weapon etc is nothing sprint suddenly introduced to the game.
> >
> > And why shouldn’t you maximise movement when you do not see an enemy? Seeing as Halo is quite a movement oriented game. Why shouldn’t games strive to make their mechanics as useful as possible?
> >
> > Faster movement is achievable through faster BMS, which it already is either way, anfd in the instances where you want even faster traversal of certain areas there are plenty of alternatives to allow a faster transition of a specific length/area.
> >
> > None, or atleast most of which come with far less of a headache than sprint.
>
> Sprint adds as much as 343 wants it to add. Currently, it could be able argued that it’s not much at all, apart from enabling abilities like slide and charge, as well as allowing for longer jumps.
>
> The point to limiting the usefulness of an ability is balance. This thread is testament that a sizeable portion of the community feels that sprint upsets the balance and feel of Halo; I’m just trying to offer a middle ground.
>
> I’m all for the faster base movement speed instead, I just don’t see it happening with 343 at the helm.

Bad phrasing on my part.
Sure, balancing is one thing.
But to seek out ways to discourage usage and nerf a mechanic to the point where it serves little to no use, is another thing.

A mechanic, especially a default / basic mechanic, should in my opinion see promotion towards using it.

Also, I don’t really agree with the notion that map size could potentially be decreased with a umiversal stopping power of sprint in place, based on the assumption that a player will be stopped during map transit. This to me falls in the same category as assuming players will engange in an encounter and stop for it in Halo 5, and as such maps would not need to be as big.

Even i343 must at some point realise how fuzzy it is to implement something for implementation’s sake, and proceed to go loose on it with a sledgehammer.
Furthermore, if I don’t recall completely off, I’ve read at some point that there had been internal debate about sprint, where it supposidely had been roughly 50/50 on having sprint or not. Could be a rumour with no basis other than wishful thinking.

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> A mechanic, especially a default / basic mechanic, should in my opinion see promotion towards using it.

I think the key is that the actions a player can perform should feel empowering. If the game actively discourages players from performing a certain action, then the action won’t be fun. And if it’s not fun, there’s no point having it in the game.

For example, the purpose of sprint is to make the player feel fast (at least this is the number one defense of sprint I see). Anything that prevents the player from sprinting when they want to seems antithetical to that. This doesn’t just apply to the speed penalty when hit, but also to the health penalty. (Frankly, I think it also applies to not being able to shoot while sprinting or to sprint backwards and sideways, but for some reason that has never bothered the pro-sprint players.)

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> > A mechanic, especially a default / basic mechanic, should in my opinion see promotion towards using it.
>
> I think the key is that the actions a player can perform should feel empowering. If the game actively discourages players from performing a certain action, then the action won’t be fun. And if it’s not fun, there’s no point having it in the game.
>
> For example, the purpose of sprint is to make the player feel fast (at least this is the number one defense of sprint I see). Anything that prevents the player from sprinting when they want to seems antithetical to that. This doesn’t just apply to the speed penalty when hit, but also to the health penalty. (Frankly, I think it also applies to not being able to shoot while sprinting or to sprint backwards and sideways, but for some reason that has never bothered the pro-sprint players.)

I’ve never thought of in terms of power, but tools to use in different ways to achieve a specific goal. I can however get behind that sentiment as well.

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> > What I propose is that they remove the healing penalty tied to sprint and replace it with “de-sprint” at all times, regardless of how long a player has been sprinting, as well as a cooldown that stops people who were “de-sprinted” from re-entering sprint straight away.
> >
> > I think the healing penalty is a little bit redundant; if you’re being shot, it’s not like you are able to recover health anyway…
> >
> > You could go even further by adding a momentary (one second?) movement speed penalty that kicks in after being “de-sprinted”, further punishing those who spam sprint whenever they feasibly can.
> >
> > With the proposed changes, people would no longer be rewarded for sprinting as often as possible, and would instead be incentivised to carefully consider when to use sprint and when remain weapon-at-the-ready.
>
> The problem with this is that it’s not a user friendly implementation. External influences affecting your movement is about one of the most disempowering and frustrating things that can happen in a game which is so reliant on movement. It feels absolutely jarring to the player and does not help creating a fun gameplay experience. If you are in a situation where these sorts of nerfs have to be considered on a mechanic that doesn’t have much positive things going for it to begin with, it’s worth considering whether it might be a better idea to get rid of the mechanic altogether.

De-sprint would eliminate the get out of jail free element but I must agree with tsassi. Even stopping power in Halo 4, a lesser version of what you are suggesting, felt disempowering. I think the biggest reason why Sprint has support at all is because of the sense of empowerment it provides. People feel like they’re getting to places faster, it doesn’t matter that in reality maps are bigger and traversal times are about the same.

I do think there is a counterplay issue with the sprint mechanic. If someone you are shooting at decides to run away what do you do? I find the answer is far too often just let them go, better luck next time, chasing would be a bad idea. What would be better is if the sandbox provided some options. If someone is running away what do you do? Trap them in a gravity grenade. Pull them with a grapple towards you. Stun them with your Faze pistol. Throw an auto sentry grenade ahead of yourself to laser them even when they get out of your line of sight. Block their path with a hard light barrier. To give a few examples.

I would like 343 to also re-enforce the idea if you run away you are giving up power positions, loosing access to power pick ups. You’ll be putting yourself at a disadvantage if you fail to contest these areas so fleeing too much will bite you in the butt eventually.

As for tweaking Sprint itself I have the idea of limiting how fast you can turn whilst sprinting. Similar to the way boost works with the ghost. That way a sprinters movements are easier to predict. Therefor easier to hit with a frag or what ever. Either that or if you turn too fast you loose speed, like you would in real life, in order to keep up your speed you must sprint in either straight lines or long curves. I would like sprint to be momentum based to introduce a committed movement element and a speed run meta. Also no air breaks when you come out of sprint mid air, always hated that.

I’m not a fan of the healing penalty, the only things I would keep from Halo 5’s sprint is the acceleration, top speed and slide. I would also like to promote the idea of combat readiness. If you really must mess with the base movement mechanics of a franchise based on the idea of running and gunning at the same time at least try and keep it as close to that as possible. Make it so you are never more than a fraction of a second away from shooting. I would like to see fast weapon recovery from sprint. The AR, SMG, Pistol, Plasma pistol and brute plasma rifle in halo 5 already behave like this. It’s just the rest of them that are slow. I would like to see it more universally.

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> > > > > > > > With the proposed changes, people would no longer be rewarded for sprinting as often as possible, and would instead be incentivised to carefully consider when to use sprint and when remain weapon-at-the-ready.
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> Bad phrasing on my part.
> Sure, balancing is one thing.
> But to seek out ways to discourage usage and nerf a mechanic to the point where it serves little to no use, is another thing.
>
> A mechanic, especially a default / basic mechanic, should in my opinion see promotion towards using it.
>
> Also, I don’t really agree with the notion that map size could potentially be decreased with a umiversal stopping power of sprint in place, based on the assumption that a player will be stopped during map transit. This to me falls in the same category as assuming players will engange in an encounter and stop for it in Halo 5, and as such maps would not need to be as big.
>
> Even i343 must at some point realise how fuzzy it is to implement something for implementation’s sake, and proceed to go loose on it with a sledgehammer.
> Furthermore, if I don’t recall completely off, I’ve read at some point that there had been internal debate about sprint, where it supposidely had been roughly 50/50 on having sprint or not. Could be a rumour with no basis other than wishful thinking.

Honestly, I don’t think an ever active de-sprint mechanic would make sprint of little use, more that it would force players to carefully consider when it is appropriate to use; I suppose we have to fall on opinions at some point, especially without evidence.

In regards to smaller maps, I’m not going to lie, I’m having trouble understanding your point. Players will almost always be able to pick and choose their battles unless a map is being heavily controlled. If players notice that spamming sprint and hoping for the best when entering potentially contested zones on a map is getting them killed, you’d see a decrease in the overall usage of sprint, therefore you wouldn’t need so many long corridors or expansive rooms.I might have sold the idea of “smaller maps” a little too well, it’s not feasible for maps to be considerably smaller with sprint still in the game, I was thinking of something around a 10-20% decrease; maybe shave some meteres off some hallways and potentially trim some of the fat from the open arenas, but nothing huge.

I wish I knew more about 343’s internal development team, but I wouldn’t expect sprint to up and leave the franchise anytime soon. Maybe in a spin-off, as it seems that 343 are very committed to the superhero design philosophy.

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> > > > Honestly at this point I just want sprint, ground pound (melee latency it causes), spartan charge (I understand they’re trying to bandaid the double melee problem but they should just remove sprint),and ads (it doesn’t feel haloish as subjective a statement that is) gone.I don’t care about slide,thrust,clamber,or stabilizers.
> > >
> > > Clamber: Removes skill jumps. OK. So, in classic Halo, there were usually a few ways to get to power weapons, but there was almost always a quicker way of getting to them (or a power up or a map control position etc) by skill jumping. Now, with Halo 5, that is gone due to clamber. Next, all walls need to be higher so you cannot clamber over them. In classic games, there were walls high enough to nade over or jump and shoot (not jump over). Now with clamber +thrust, these are gone.
> >
> > Clamber can easily be fixed by simply not making it a requirement to get anywhere. Reduce the walls anyway, and then slow down the animation for Clamber, and also tighten the amount of room needed for Clamber to activate.
> >
> > That way, there’s a small skill gap for those who can grenade jump or crouch jump or the sort and never slow down, but those who can’t have an alternate method but puts them at a disadvantage because they can’t shoot while clambering.
>
> But why would we want to keep any version of Clamber to begin with? I’ve never really understood this attitude that whenever there’s a mechanic in the game which is fundamentally detrimental to the depth of gameplay, someone always suggests “Oh, just nerf it so that people want to use it less”. And the problem here is: there is no middle ground. Either you nerf it to oblivion to the point that it practically doesn’t exist in the game, or there will always be some benefit to using it, and so it is still a problem.
>
> For example, let’s consider this suggestion about Clamber. First of all, neither reducing jump distances, nor making the animation longer address the main issues, which are that Clamber makes any jump easier to execute, and that there will always exist jumps which can only be executed with Clamber. The Clamber animation would at the very least be slowed down so much that you’d be better off just letting yourself fall than use Clamber whenever there are enemies around. After all, if there’s a good chance of surviving an encounter after the animation, then the animation clearly isn’t enough of a detriment.
>
> If Clamber was nerfed to the extent that its problems became practically nonexistent, people would almost never use it because failing would often be faster, and almost always safer, and using it you would be stuck in an excruciatingly long (and necessarily very awkward looking) climbing animation. And if Clamber is almost never used, why have it in the game to begin with?
>
> As you might be able to tell, I don’t see any other solution to Clamber than removing it. It has nothing to offer to gameplay, and therefore it doesn’t belong there.

I agree with you and would rather have it removed altogether, but like most of the purpose in this thread, would rather see if there are ways to improve the mechanic before immediately jump to “erase it with bleach”.

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> I agree with you and would rather have it removed altogether, but like most of the purpose in this thread, would rather see if there are ways to improve the mechanic before immediately jump to “erase it with bleach”.

I sort of get that. But consider: what is it that you’re trying to improve? If we just valued the skill in jumping, then removing Clamber would be a no-brainer because as long as it is at all useful, there exist a situation where it can save a failing jump. So, when you try to find a way to keep it in the game, it can only be that there is something about the mechanic that you think is worth preserving to someone (not necessarily even to you). As far as I understand the pro-Clamber viewpoint, those people like it because they think it makes their movement feel smoother, and if there’s anything worth preserving, it’s that experience of theirs. However, that feeling of smoothness comes about because the animation wastes only a small amount of time. If you increase the animation time, you rob these people of what makes the mechanic fun for them. So, while I appreciate the sentiment, I think in this case trying to make some people less unhappy will only make other people unhappy.

The problem with mechanics like Clamber and Sprint is that in order to get the group of people that dislikes these mechanics accept them in any form, there would have to be at least some redeeming value in them, something these people feel is worth pursuing. That way there could at least in principle exist an implementation where everyone can feel like the positives outweigh the negatives. But by their nature, these mechanics have nothing going for them as far as the people who dislike them are concerned.

So, I can only say that I really appreciate your attitude, but I can’t bring myself to share it.

14395

Sprint is just bad period. Ideally it wouldn’t be in the game, but if it has to be, it should always be available to use. Sprint is clunky to begin with, and when you have a sprint bar that needs to charge it’s even clunkier. I don’t understand how anyone could favor choppy gameplay where you’re always going in and out of a sprinting animation. Higher base speed and a higher FOV would make the game feel much faster, and much smoother.

14396

Ya’ll should be glad I’m not in charge around here or I’d show you a sprintless Halo which would fix all sorts of things by going back to HCE jump height, HCE falling damage, HCE health packs, H2 duel welding, H3 projectile bullets, and Reach’s Bloom. Oh yeah, no sprint, no BR-DMR-CC-LR-etc-etc, and maps are loaded with teleporters and man canons and grav lifts and plenty of weak weapons and only 1 random power weapon spawn per match (no reloads).

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> Ya’ll should be glad I’m not in charge around here or I’d show you a sprintless Halo which would fix all sorts of things by going back to HCE jump height, HCE falling damage, HCE health packs, H2 duel welding, H3 projectile bullets, and Reach’s Bloom. Oh yeah, no sprint, no BR-DMR-CC-LR-etc-etc, and maps are loaded with teleporters and man canons and grav lifts and plenty of weak weapons and only 1 random power weapon spawn per match (no reloads).

Hyperbole at it’s finest.

One would assume it’s a rage post based on a bitterness against the oh-so-long sprint debate you do not need to participate in.
Even with the hyperbole in place from your side, you fail to realise something, no one is forced to play Halo, and if that would be your “revenge” against anti-sprinters, what new would be to their situation? They dislike Halo now and they’d most likely dislike your Halo, so nothing would change in that regard, other than you would be left with that Halo.

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> 2533274839169051;14396:
> Ya’ll should be glad I’m not in charge around here or I’d show you a sprintless Halo which would fix all sorts of things by going back to HCE jump height, HCE falling damage, HCE health packs, H2 duel welding, H3 projectile bullets, and Reach’s Bloom. Oh yeah, no sprint, no BR-DMR-CC-LR-etc-etc, and maps are loaded with teleporters and man canons and grav lifts and plenty of weak weapons and only 1 random power weapon spawn per match (no reloads).

Already sounds better than Reach-5

14399

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> > 2533274839169051;14396:
> > Ya’ll should be glad I’m not in charge around here or I’d show you a sprintless Halo which would fix all sorts of things by going back to HCE jump height, HCE falling damage, HCE health packs, H2 duel welding, H3 projectile bullets, and Reach’s Bloom. Oh yeah, no sprint, no BR-DMR-CC-LR-etc-etc, and maps are loaded with teleporters and man canons and grav lifts and plenty of weak weapons and only 1 random power weapon spawn per match (no reloads).
>
> Already sounds better than Reach-5

I dislike projectile bullets in Halo 3, wasnt a big fan of it to begin with.

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> Sprint is just bad period. Ideally it wouldn’t be in the game, but if it has to be, it should always be available to use. Sprint is clunky to begin with, and when you have a sprint bar that needs to charge it’s even clunkier. I don’t understand how anyone could favor choppy gameplay where you’re always going in and out of a sprinting animation. Higher base speed and a higher FOV would make the game feel much faster, and much smoother.

I agree a faster BMS or increased FOV would be good i dont think people mind it that much considering how many other games have it.

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> > Sprint is just bad period. Ideally it wouldn’t be in the game, but if it has to be, it should always be available to use. Sprint is clunky to begin with, and when you have a sprint bar that needs to charge it’s even clunkier. I don’t understand how anyone could favor choppy gameplay where you’re always going in and out of a sprinting animation. Higher base speed and a higher FOV would make the game feel much faster, and much smoother.
>
> I agree a faster BMS or increased FOV would be good i dont think people mind it that much considering how many other games have it.

Yeah, my go-to example is always quake. It’s the fastest FPS game around and it doesn’t have sprint.

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> > > Sprint is just bad period. Ideally it wouldn’t be in the game, but if it has to be, it should always be available to use. Sprint is clunky to begin with, and when you have a sprint bar that needs to charge it’s even clunkier. I don’t understand how anyone could favor choppy gameplay where you’re always going in and out of a sprinting animation. Higher base speed and a higher FOV would make the game feel much faster, and much smoother.
> >
> > I agree a faster BMS or increased FOV would be good i dont think people mind it that much considering how many other games have it.
>
> Yeah, my go-to example is always quake. It’s the fastest FPS game around and it doesn’t have sprint.

Look at how fast H2 is versus H5, it becomes insane. Sprint is a gimmick that creates dead zones where we enter into an animation without the ability to shoot/nade etc.

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> > > > Sprint is just bad period. Ideally it wouldn’t be in the game, but if it has to be, it should always be available to use. Sprint is clunky to begin with, and when you have a sprint bar that needs to charge it’s even clunkier. I don’t understand how anyone could favor choppy gameplay where you’re always going in and out of a sprinting animation. Higher base speed and a higher FOV would make the game feel much faster, and much smoother.
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> > > I agree a faster BMS or increased FOV would be good i dont think people mind it that much considering how many other games have it.
> >
> > Yeah, my go-to example is always quake. It’s the fastest FPS game around and it doesn’t have sprint.
>
> Look at how fast H2 is versus H5, it becomes insane. Sprint is a gimmick that creates dead zones where we enter into an animation without the ability to shoot/nade etc.

Not a big fan of the Dead zone argument, they are not really a negative per se for example the pit was quit big for Halo 3 4v4 same with sandtrap they didnt really negatively impact on gameplay. H2/3 arena time compared with H5 is the same, I think both sides start to argue about different things when they say speed. So H2/3 had smaller levels so the time for two players to interact is quick. However in Halo 5 the gun battle movement is quick eg using thrust and having normal jump.

In the end its hard to determine which game is faster because it is kind of determined by players and strategy, i would say to people that stay away from this type of argument cause it cant really be proven. Sprint may be a gimmick but so are a lot of things that halo brought “im looking at you Dual welding”.