The sprint discussion thread

Games Halo 5: Guardians
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> > As you said, design, health packs didn’t come back until the weaker Spartan 3s were being used. In that regard it makes sense that they need to manage and look out for health kits, their armor does not heal their wounds.
>
> Regardless, the whole lore excuse for gameplay changes is rather ludicrous in discussions like these, I’m sure you would agree to that.

If you look at my other posts, You’ll realize what side I’m on.

And that is also the whole premise for Halo 5.

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> > 2533274912467533;14123:
> > > As you said, design, health packs didn’t come back until the weaker Spartan 3s were being used. In that regard it makes sense that they need to manage and look out for health kits, their armor does not heal their wounds.
> >
> > Regardless, the whole lore excuse for gameplay changes is rather ludicrous in discussions like these, I’m sure you would agree to that.
>
> If you look at my other posts, You’ll realize what side I’m on.
>
> And that is also the whole premise for Halo 5.

I know, hence why I said “I’m sure you would agree to that.”

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> > As you said, design, health packs didn’t come back until the weaker Spartan 3s were being used. In that regard it makes sense that they need to manage and look out for health kits, their armor does not heal their wounds.
>
> Well, yes, or maybe the fact that Reach was a prequel to Halo CE in which even the Spartan IIs in their more advanced Mark V armor (Noble team were just using prototypes for Mark V, hence why it was called Mark V ) had to use health packs.
> Regardless, the whole lore excuse for gameplay changes is rather ludicrous in discussions like these, I’m sure you would agree to that. The argument that sprint has to stay because it is “the future of Halo” and “Spartans should be able to sprint since they can in lore” is rather simple minded since the devs can change the gameplay to whatever they want (Bungie did this with dual wielding and health packs), and lore should be built around the gameplay, not the other way around.
[/quote]
I agree. This lore over gameplay is wrecking so many games these days.

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> > 2533274808578327;14124:
> > > 2533274912467533;14123:
> > > > As you said, design, health packs didn’t come back until the weaker Spartan 3s were being used. In that regard it makes sense that they need to manage and look out for health kits, their armor does not heal their wounds.
> > >
> > > Regardless, the whole lore excuse for gameplay changes is rather ludicrous in discussions like these, I’m sure you would agree to that.
> >
> > If you look at my other posts, You’ll realize what side I’m on.
> >
> > And that is also the whole premise for Halo 5.
>
> I know, hence why I said “I’m sure you would agree to that.”

We are in agreement then ;p hopefully

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> > 2533274912467533;14125:
> > > 2533274808578327;14124:
> > > > 2533274912467533;14123:
> > > > > As you said, design, health packs didn’t come back until the weaker Spartan 3s were being used. In that regard it makes sense that they need to manage and look out for health kits, their armor does not heal their wounds.
> > > >
> > > > Regardless, the whole lore excuse for gameplay changes is rather ludicrous in discussions like these, I’m sure you would agree to that.
> > >
> > > If you look at my other posts, You’ll realize what side I’m on.
> > >
> > > And that is also the whole premise for Halo 5.
> >
> > I know, hence why I said “I’m sure you would agree to that.”
>
> We are in agreement then ;p hopefully

Indeed we are in agreement, my friend. :wink:

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> > 2535428931873471;14121:
> > > 2533274825830455;14112:
> > > I’d be curious to hear what Stabilizer takes away from trick jumps.
> >
> > I’m actually glad you asked that, since when I typed it I wondered if everyone would know what I meant. There are a couple different reasons why auto-stabilize makes most trick jumps easier. The first is that you can get some extra distance out of your jump if you use it, making the ones that are difficult to complete without stabilizers easier. The second is that you can attempt a jump, miss it, stabilize, and ground pound back to safety instead of falling to your death. Sure, doing that isn’t super easy, and it isn’t possible with every jump, but in previous halo games your jumps had to be perfect or else you would either miss it and not be where you wanted to be, or miss it and die. With auto stabilize and clamber, trick jumps are nearly non existent.
>
> I would argue that Stabilizer isn’t your biggest problem there. First of all, the distance argument is at best incomplete. Consider for a moment what you can do only using Stabilizer, and no other Spartan Abilities. It won’t get you much further or higher than a plain crouch jump will. The truth is that Clamber, Thruster Pack, and Sprint all have a much more significant effect to jump distances, an effect that is so significant that it actually greatly impacts how maps need to be designed to fit difficult jumps.
>
> The fact that short jumps become easier isn’t an inherent problem. It is in principle solved by creating longer jumps to compensate. For example, increasing base movement speed would have the same effect you are complaining about, but that is solved by making larger jumps. Likewise, if base movement speed was slowed down, some of the earlier difficult jumps would become impossible, and jumps would have to be scaled down. The problem with trick jumping in Halo 5 is that the distance combinations of different Spartan Abilities allow the player to cross are massive. They are so large that restricting the movement of players in a meaningful way would require either very open, or very large maps, which in turn creates other problems.
>
> On paper, both Stabilizer and Ground Pound are actually very interesting. Neither of these abilities is intended to be used for jumps, but yet players have found ways to use them. And really, a jump that requires you to first repeatedly crouch while stabilizing, then hold Ground Pound, but not so long that it activates is, by definition, a trick jump because it makes use of a nonstandard trick to complete the jump. I don’t think these two abilities actively make the jumping worse because they actually require some dexterity to use, and leave the player hanging in the air as a large target. Much more harmful are abilities such as Sprint, Thruster Pack, and Clamber, which make jumps longer without any effort needed. With that said, I also do not think Stabilizer and Ground Pound have enough to offer that I would like to keep them, so, removing them from the game is fine by me.

Fair points. The issue I have is that trick jumps have really taken a backseat in recent Halo games, where they were far more prevalent in others. I thought about mentioning thrusters, but I actually really do like the mechanic, and for the most part jumps have been adjusted accordingly, so in my opinion it isn’t that big of an issue. Maybe the effect on trick jumps aren’t why I dislike those two mechanics. It could be the whole hovering thing that sort of throws off gameplay for me. At the end of the day, I could live with a Halo game that all other mechanics besides sprint, so I suppose that’s the main issue here.

> 2533274864708567;14126:
> I agree. This lore over gameplay is wrecking so many games these days.

So very true. I really hate the way lore has started to effect the gameplay so much. Lore shouldn’t effect the gameplay, or even the storyline at all. If people want a bunch of lore they can go play an RPG. Halo has went downhill in so many aspects due to the lore, to the point where the campaigns don’t even feel like Halo, and multiplayer that feels like Halo apparently takes a backseat to lore-compliant mechanics.

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i Just wish halos jumps were more physics oriented, in halo 3 the barrels, cones, explosives, antenna, ramps etc allowed for some crazy jumps. I think making jumps more complex through button press abilities isn’t good for the primary reason that they’re always accessible, when they are on the map, or through map geometry they require more calculation as its usefulness or execution isn’t clearly defined without experience.

With clamber the logic is that any ledge that is just far enough away to be reach will be climbed, the sense of space and timing is clearly defined for each ability so it becomes a matter of knowing what you have to work with then doing it, there’s less variability in how it’s executed as they’re very well defined eg thrust will always go x distance, GP will last for x long and move x far etc.

with the more dynamic elements like explosions, or brute shot or slide boosting is that for each situation the angle, elevation, acceleration, force, timing of jump, direction all create 1 result, a result that in different circumstances require different ways of thinking or calculation.

how i’m describing may sound more complex than the gameplay seemed, but once you faced players who would destroy you once you were visible, manipulating physics and having a clear intention with the smaller elements was more meaningful and difficult… than the h5 movement system where it’s easier to read but harder to punish.

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> I think making jumps more complex through button press abilities isn’t good for the primary reason that they’re always accessible, when they are on the map, or through map geometry they require more calculation as its usefulness or execution isn’t clearly defined without experience.

If by this you mean that rather than giving players more abilities in search of more complex movement, the effort should instead be concentrated on design of the environment to create interesting possibilities, I can totally get behind that. With that said, I think you’re giving Halo 3 too much credit when it comes to actually accomplishing this. Based on the fact that you mention barrels, cones, and explosives, I get the impression that you’re thinking something along the lines of Halo 3 trick jumping montages. And while they are impressive, and interesting from the point of view of what’s theoretically possible with such a simple movement system, I don’t think they can be, for the most part, considered representative of what was actually feasible in normal gameplay. Part of that is failure of map design, which can be dealt with. But then there are things that just aren’t feasible. For example, the situation where a player has a Brute Shot and taking the damage to make a jump with it is actually worth it is so niche that Brute Shot can hardly be considered an integral part of the movement sandbox of Halo 3. Then there is the category of nading a turret to jump off the tripod while it’s in the air, where the risk versus reward is so skewed that I bet nobody has ever gotten anything more out of it than a cool clip.

But as I said, I very much agree with the general idea. Giving players more freedom doesn’t create deep movement. Forcing players to get creative with limited movement abilities does, and physics based movement is vastly underutilized in Halo. (In fact, I could make the argument that 343i is actively avoid physics based movement by designing abilities such as Stabilizer, Ground Pound, and Thruster Pack that go against the natural conservation of momentum.)

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> > 2533274836395701;14130:
> > I think making jumps more complex through button press abilities isn’t good for the primary reason that they’re always accessible, when they are on the map, or through map geometry they require more calculation as its usefulness or execution isn’t clearly defined without experience.
>
> If by this you mean that rather than giving players more abilities in search of more complex movement, the effort should instead be concentrated on design of the environment to create interesting possibilities, I can totally get behind that. With that said, I think you’re giving Halo 3 too much credit when it comes to actually accomplishing this. Based on the fact that you mention barrels, cones, and explosives, I get the impression that you’re thinking something along the lines of Halo 3 trick jumping montages. And while they are impressive, and interesting from the point of view of what’s theoretically possible with such a simple movement system, I don’t think they can be, for the most part, considered representative of what was actually feasible in normal gameplay.

I must highly disagree. It was definitely possible and was witnessed in many games even out of tournament play. It comes down to knowledge and execution, and a little bit of crazy that can pull off awesome feats.

Edit: Struggling to find this other link I wanted to add in to make this complete, dang it lol. Not going to have the full impact I was hoping for.

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I forget if I commented on this thread before but I would love if they removed sprint and GP but kept all the other abilities. Actually also remove smart link on autos as well.

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> > 2533274864708567;14126:
> > I agree. This lore over gameplay is wrecking so many games these days.
>
> So very true. I really hate the way lore has started to effect the gameplay so much. Lore shouldn’t effect the gameplay, or even the storyline at all. If people want a bunch of lore they can go play an RPG. Halo has went downhill in so many aspects due to the lore, to the point where the campaigns don’t even feel like Halo, and multiplayer that feels like Halo apparently takes a backseat to lore-compliant mechanics.

Just to make it clear: None of the abilities in H5G are based on lore. Some of them - such as sprint and ADS - actively contradict lore. And most of the rest - ground pound, thrust, not sure about clamber - haven’t been mentioned in expanded material ever before.
That being said, I agree with the point that gameplay should come first, lore second.

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> I must highly disagree. It was definitely possible and was witnessed in many games even out of tournament play. It comes down to knowledge and execution, and a little bit of crazy that can pull off awesome feats.
>
> Edit: Struggling to find this other link I wanted to add in to make this complete, dang it lol. Not going to have the full impact I was hoping for.

Can I ask a clarifying question? Do you think this trick jumping montage is representative of the jumps that happen in normal gameplay in Halo 3? Or heck, even in tournament level play? If not, then there is nothing you disagree with me about. (If it was the bolded statement you meant to disagree with.) If yes, then I’d very much like to see this gameplay.

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> > 2533274808578327;14132:
> > I must highly disagree. It was definitely possible and was witnessed in many games even out of tournament play. It comes down to knowledge and execution, and a little bit of crazy that can pull off awesome feats.
> >
> > Edit: Struggling to find this other link I wanted to add in to make this complete, dang it lol. Not going to have the full impact I was hoping for.
>
> Can I ask a clarifying question? Do you think this trick jumping montage is representative of the jumps that happen in normal gameplay in Halo 3? Or heck, even in tournament level play? If not, then there is nothing you disagree with me about. (If it was the bolded statement you meant to disagree with.) If yes, then I’d very much like to see this gameplay.

I bolded it for a reason, yes it was the bold part.

That Sandtrap cross map rocket jump can’t really happen in a normal game though, far too stylish ;p. But yea, standard jumping or getting boosted by grenades is fairly common in typical Halo gamemodes. Some easier than others obviously.

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> > 2535428931873471;14129:
> > > 2533274864708567;14126:
> > > I agree. This lore over gameplay is wrecking so many games these days.
> >
> > So very true. I really hate the way lore has started to effect the gameplay so much. Lore shouldn’t effect the gameplay, or even the storyline at all. If people want a bunch of lore they can go play an RPG. Halo has went downhill in so many aspects due to the lore, to the point where the campaigns don’t even feel like Halo, and multiplayer that feels like Halo apparently takes a backseat to lore-compliant mechanics.
>
> Just to make it clear: None of the abilities in H5G are based on lore. Some of them - such as sprint and ADS - actively contradict lore. And most of the rest - ground pound, thrust, not sure about clamber - haven’t been mentioned in expanded material ever before.
> That being said, I agree with the point that gameplay should come first, lore second.

I suppose I’ll take your word on that, seeing as I’m a multiplayer guy and not a story one. All I know is that there have been multiple people in this thread saying that sprint needs to stay because it aligns with the lore. Obviously they could’ve just been pulling it out of their -Yoinks!-, but I assumed that they were correct. At any rate, I think most of us can agree that 343’s ultra lore focused development style has been quite detrimental to the franchise.

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> > 2533274801176260;14134:
> > > 2535428931873471;14129:
> > > > 2533274864708567;14126:
> > > > I agree. This lore over gameplay is wrecking so many games these days.
> > >
> > > So very true. I really hate the way lore has started to effect the gameplay so much. Lore shouldn’t effect the gameplay, or even the storyline at all. If people want a bunch of lore they can go play an RPG. Halo has went downhill in so many aspects due to the lore, to the point where the campaigns don’t even feel like Halo, and multiplayer that feels like Halo apparently takes a backseat to lore-compliant mechanics.
> >
> > Just to make it clear: None of the abilities in H5G are based on lore. Some of them - such as sprint and ADS - actively contradict lore. And most of the rest - ground pound, thrust, not sure about clamber - haven’t been mentioned in expanded material ever before.
> > That being said, I agree with the point that gameplay should come first, lore second.
>
> I suppose I’ll take your word on that, seeing as I’m a multiplayer guy and not a story one. All I know is that there have been multiple people in this thread saying that sprint needs to stay because it aligns with the lore. Obviously they could’ve just been pulling it out of their -Yoinks!-, but I assumed that they were correct. At any rate, I think most of us can agree that 343’s ultra lore focused development style has been quite detrimental to the franchise.

Let’s not forget they’re in charge of the lore as well.
If they’re dictating gameplay through lore, they either throw stuff in as an afterthougth because it was in the lore. Or they write the lore based on how they want the gameplay, which essentially mean they write the gameplay before they start with it.

“Because it’s in the lore” is a useless argument because i343 controll both. If they wanted it gone they could write it out of the canon, make it obsolete, Sprint for example.
Previosuly the suits had built in speed inhibitors as to not severely wound the user going over a certain speed, if I recall correctly.
i343 could just as easily give the spartans new armor which allow them to move fast while maintaining perfect aim, the suit would compensate balance and stabilise aiming automatically.

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> > I would keep sprint. it comes in handy every now and then.
>
> Wouldn’t you find it more convenient to be able to move fast and shoot at the same time? The only time sprint comes in handy, especially in Halo 5 is when your moving across open space on a map with loads of open sight lines. Increased movement speed does the exact same thing and, guess what, doesn’t penalize you for moving faster.

That is a good point. That would be useful.

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> -CSGO-Doom
> -Overwatch
> -Unreal Tournament
> -Warhammer: Vermintide
> -Quake Champions
> -Toxic

This got me thinking. Can you tell me what exactly is sprint? In CS you move faster with a knife, right. This means that you can’t have a gun up, while moving fast in CS. So I’m saying that CS has sprint.

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> > 2533274795123910;14065:
> > -CSGO-Doom
> > -Overwatch
> > -Unreal Tournament
> > -Warhammer: Vermintide
> > -Quake Champions
> > -Toxic
>
> This got me thinking. Can you tell me what exactly is sprint? In CS you move faster with a knife, right. This means that you can’t have a gun up, while moving fast in CS. So I’m saying that CS has sprint.

Do you have a Base Movement Speed to compare the Knife running to?
I do not consider the Knife in CS:GO as sprint due to still being able to attack while maintaining the speed.
Can you end the “knife” automatically through no “weapon selection mechanics”?
Would you consider using the Prophet’s Bane sprinting? It functions like the knife does in CS:GO.

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> > 2533274943854776;14140:
> > > 2533274795123910;14065:
> > > -CSGO-Doom
> > > -Overwatch
> > > -Unreal Tournament
> > > -Warhammer: Vermintide
> > > -Quake Champions
> > > -Toxic
> >
> > This got me thinking. Can you tell me what exactly is sprint? In CS you move faster with a knife, right. This means that you can’t have a gun up, while moving fast in CS. So I’m saying that CS has sprint.
>
> Do you have a Base Movement Speed to compare the Knife running to?
> I do not consider the Knife in CS:GO as sprint due to still being able to attack while maintaining the speed.

Thanks for the data. Tell me, would you say that Halo doesn’t have sprint, if you could melee while sprinting?

> 2533274795123910;14141:
> Can you end the “knife” automatically through no “weapon selection mechanics”?
> Would you consider using the Prophet’s Bane sprinting? It functions like the knife does in CS:GO.

Well, if it was universal, meaning everyone spawned with a prophets bane, then yes. The point is that sprint is more than just an animation.

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> 2533274943854776;14140:
> This got me thinking. Can you tell me what exactly is sprint? In CS you move faster with a knife, right. This means that you can’t have a gun up, while moving fast in CS. So I’m saying that CS has sprint.

I have trouble regarding the knife movement in CS as sprint because the whole movement system in CS works in a specific way. Every weapon slows you down differently to have an appearance of weight, and it just happens to be that the knife should naturally be a very light object, so you run with it the fastest. (And of course there is the plain design centric reason that it’s also the least effective weapon, so it can afford to give the highest speed.) Not to mention that the speed incerase is pretty marginal compared to many weapons, especially the pistols.

It’s true that sprint is more than an animation, but I also don’t think it makes sense to define it on purely mechanical grounds. How the player experiences the running affects whether they regard it as sprinting, or something else (e.g., running with a lighter weapon). I do think, however, that Naqser said something interesting: do you have a base movement speed to compare to? Because if you want some mechanical definition, I think it would be running at a speed above the base movement speed. But that raises the question: what is base movement speed? I think in games where weapons and other equipment don’t affect your speed, this is pretty ambiguous, but in games that have all kinds of speed boosts, I don’t think this can be meaningfully determined.

But whatever you do, you can think of weird fringe cases where any definition just seems out of place. So, that’s the problem with giving a precise definition.